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Trychydts wrote:

So the market price of a ring with this enchantment would have been 19400 gp; Quinquin was able to enchant his ring for 4860gp. (It is not too much for a 6th level charachter, since his suggested wealth level is 16000 gp.)

The caster level is the minimum required to cast the spell I believe so I think the gaseous form ring would have a GP value of:

3*5*1800*3/5 = 16200
So cost for a gaseous form ring should be 16200/4 = 4050

But you can make it with a higher caster level if you wish to do so, can't you?

However if the ring also has INT +2 you should double the cost of the higher cost effect since it has multiple different abilities in a single item. (p143) So the ring with INT+2 and gaseous form x3 would cost 12100.

That is true (and I overlooked this, so thank you), however, page 147 says:

"Adding New Abilities

A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. The cost to do this is the same as if the item was not magical. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword. If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5."

This seems to be a small loophole in the rules, since it seems it is cheaper to add new abilities than to create a magical item with several abilites. In that paticular case, the wizard first gave the ring the Abilitiy "Alter self" (a permanent/user activated effect for 2*3*2000/4=3000 gp), then "Gaseous form" abilitiy mentioned above for 4860*1,5=7290gp), and then the +2 intelligence bonus for 2^2*1000*1.5=6000gp. The total cost is 13860gp, which is still a very good price for a 9th-level character.

Strangely rings are not mentioned on the "Body slot affinity table", they have made it fairly clear that INT/ WIS/ CHA boosting items should be on headbands though which would raise the cost of the item even more. (uncustomary item slot +50% cost)

I do not know what to think, exactly because rings -- as you mentioned -- has no special affinities. At the moment I am inclined to treat rings as a special kind of magic items that can be enchanted to any effect without an additional cost.

Trychydts wrote:

His extra spells came really handy, just as the 3/day Gaseous form ability of his Arcane Bond ring.

How come the wizard got Gaseous form 3/day from his ring? Did he imbue it with that ability along with +2 Int?

I'M trying to familiarize myself with some of these rules, as prep for my campaign conversion when the Beta is released!

Thanks!

P. 49 of Pathfinder Alpha says:

"A wizard can enchant his bonded object as if he had the required feats. Any powers added to his bonded object are added at half the normal cost. If the bonded object is a wand, it loses its enchantment when its last charge is consumed, but it is not destroyed and it retains all of its bonded object properties. "

So, according to my interpretation, the wizard can enchant his ring as he had the "forge ring" feat, at is costs half as much than forging a normal ring; so it's one-quarter of the item's market price, which we calculated using table 17-2 (p. 143). So the gaseous for 3/day costed him

3[Since Gaseous form is a 3rd level spell]*6(Quinquin's level when making the enchantment]*1800[It is activated with a command word]/(5/3)

So the market price of a ring with this enchantment would have been 19400 gp; Quinquin was able to enchant his ring for 4860gp. (It is not too much for a 6th level charachter, since his suggested wealth level is 16000 gp.)

Some feedback on actual playtesting.

The first adventure was some spying/information gathering in the city; Mayte was a bit better, since she became more skilled. Suddenly she "gained" Diplomacy (she originally only had ranks in Gather Information), she used it a lot. Since she changed her mind and took Major Magic (Charm Person) instead of a Combat Maneuver feat as a rogue talent, she became really cool with influencing people. Much cooler than before.

Quinquin usually gives support whit his Knowledge skills and Enchantment spells in these kind of adventures. He barely became any better in these areas -- since he chose arcane bond, and he added Intelligence+2 to his ring, he became a bit smarter and basically that's all. But he is a Transmuter, after all, not an Enchanter. If he were, he would have been much better than a D&D wizard.

The second part of the adventure was some sneaking in the house of a mysterious dwarf. Because of the merging of the skills, Mayte was much better in disarming traps (originally she had much more ranks in Open lock then Disarm traps); both Mayte and Jillian was better in Stealth. However, the guards were much more vary because of the elimination of cross-class skill limits -- these Fighters could have more rank in Perception. In some situations they barely could avoid getting caught (once only because of Mayte's clever use of her minor magic talent (she chose Ghost sound)).

Shraash was not involved in this adventure.

As a side story, Jillian was involved in a fighting contest which we started with the original 3.5 rules. It involved fighting on ledges and pillars above a pit. After the conversion, as a Ledge Walker, and with her increased potency with her short sword, she won the contest much more easily than she could without the conversion.

The next adventure involved the tracking of a party of tiefling adventurers. They needed their social skills in the villages -- see above. The pinnacle of the adventure was the actual confrontation with the tiefling.

Quinquin's Telekinetic fist is superb in combat -- much better then his previous, pathetic efforts with his crossbow. His extra spells came really handy, just as the 3/day Gaseous form ability of his Arcane Bond ring.

Rogues are better in combat with the new system. Much better. In 3.5, Shraash was a considerably better fighter then Mayte. He had more HP, and he displayed a better performance with the greataxe than Mayte with her rapier. Now, Pathfinder Mayte is able to fight with two weapons, she has more HP (actually more then Shraash), and Bleeding attack gives additional advantages to rogues in prolonged fights.

Whoa. Read all the posts. You guys are really enthusiastic!

As I see it, weapons were invented in the first place because they make fighting much more effective. So maybe Monk weapons should make the Monk more effective -- so letting him using his unarmed damage with the special Monk weapons seems a good idea to me. (And I also would like to at least some kind of pole arm as a monk weapon.)

I like the "enhanced handwrap" idea, too -- many class has it's own magic items, why should be the monk an exception? This could give a chance for those who like monks fighting only with their hands, while the first solution gives more versatility to the monks.

How many people actually put skill points into linguistics?

In my campaign, "Decipher Skill" was a critical skill many times -- and I made it clear at the first level, so two of my characters have pretty decent ranks in it. Forgery was also fairly useful.

If you say that you only get a new language every 2, 3 or 5 levels, then what would the point be? It would be easier, cheaper, to just get a some sort of magic item that gives you comprehend languages.

It's not the same. Of course, in a combat-oriented campaign, when even the last orc butcher in the last, distant, stinky little hole speaks Common, speaking languages is not much of an issue. However, if you want to be a really convincing spy, you should be able to speak (and not just understand) the language of the enemy. Even when you are awaken at the middle of the night and you do not have time to put on your Tongues helmet or neckalce; even when the vizier of the King is using "Detect magic" on you and you have to remove your magical items. Etc.

In more or less social skill oriented campaigns the choosing of the correct languages is almost like choosing appropriate feats for your fighter. The Speak Language skill (which was class-skill only for the Bard) alongside with the "one bonus language/bonus points of intelligence" rule created a fairly balanced situation. I increased the importance of the intelligent wizard at lower levels, and made journeys/adventures in foreign countries much more challenging and interesting.

Trapfinding: Rogues (and only rogues) can use the

Perception skill to locate traps when the task has a
Difficulty Class higher than 20.

I have never understood this rule in D&D, either. Why should I multiclass just to be able to locate dangerous traps? I especially do not understand this is Pathfinder, when the walls between classes has definitely lowered. The ranger does not have the Track ability, and a even a non-ranger can track with the survival skill. There is no penalty on buying non-class skills.

If the reason is that Perception is a way too generic skill to include the findig of more dangerous traps, and we assume that the Rogue has some special training in this field, then maybe this problem could be solved with a "Trapfinding" feat.

My other problem is with the rogue talents. These either focus on combat or the rogue's sneaking ability. According to the original rogue concept:

Some are stealthy thieves. Others are silver-tounged tricksters. Still others are scouts, spies, diplomats or thugs.

I would be happy if I were able to see some talents that strengthen the "silver tounged trickster" or "diplomat" side of the rogue. Maybe the rogue could be made able to retry a failed Diplomacy check (she can lie so fluently). Maybe she could gain some bonus social skills (like she is able to get Weapon finesse, a combat maneuver or Weapon focus as a talent). Maybe she could gain bonuses in social skills against some races (not unlike the ranger can choose racial enemies).

What do you think?

In the case of crafting magic items, armor, and weapons, the rules state that "the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)." To me, that says that you can't use a scroll or other source to cast the spells needed to make magic equipment, which was a pretty common practice in v.3.5. Was that an intended change?

Acutally it's not a change. For instance, in p286 of DMG 3.5 you can read just the same.

I can accept the idea that the first time you whip out the barstool and clock your foe on the head you might catch them by surprise, but after they've seen you pull this trick, I don't think that your opponents are going to be slack-jawed the entire fight. It should be revised to indicate that your opponents will be flat-footed for one round. They will be immune to this effect for the rest of this encounter. The lack of attack penalty continues to apply.

I do not even think that experienced but unarmed opponents could be surprised that much by some weapon improvising. I think eliminating the penalty is far enough for a feat like this.

I'd like to file a bug report please.

Me, too. In my world, there are no "common" languages; so choosing which languages are known by the characters was a really important decision. And in a fantasy world, most languages are isolated from the others.

I recommend the usage of the old system (it's 2 skill points to learn a language, and the character has one free language for each bonus point of Intelligence). Or, if it's must be connected to Linguistics, I recommend a free language for every two or three ranks in the skill.

Fighters should have Perception and Stealth as class skills. I have never understood why they don't have it.

Fighters clearly concentrate on fighting. They can have Perception if they need it, but I feel it quite reasonable that they do not get a bonus on it.

I never felt that stealth (hiding and moving silently) should be a part of the fighter repertoire.

We started testing the Pathfinder RPG yesterday. We decided that we would convert our existing campaign; so we converted the characters to the new rules.

First we had to decide what to do with the character levels: after some hesitation I -- the DM -- ruled that we adjusted the xps to the character levels and not vica versa. I decided that way that I simply did not want to take away powers from the character they already earned.

The party is made of a human 8th level rogue/1st level fighter/1st level shadow dancer (Mayte), a 7th level lizardfolk cleric (ECL 10) (Shraash), a halfling 6th level fighter/4th level rogue (Jillian) and a human 6th level wizard/3rd level cleric (Quinquin).

After recalculating and readjusting the skill points and the feats, re-rolling the necessary hit dices, it turned out that the rogues became slightly more powerful than before. (It is important to say that we used a house rule: if a character had a skill as a class skill in any of her class, she could always develop it as a class skill.)

Mayte had the Investigator feat -- since it has been eliminated, she chose Two-weapon fighting instead. She also had Weapon finesse, but now she was able to choose it as a rogue talent, so she took in Agile Maneuvers instead of it. At 9th level she has chosen Combat Expertise only to be able to take Improved Disarm -- now Combat Expertise is not a perquisite of Improved Disarm, so I also let to swap these.

She only had to subtract 3 skill points from her new skill's ranks, but since all her skills were class-skills, she got a +3 bonus on every of her skills, so she obviously became much more skilled.

Jillian was specialized to short swords, so she obviously chosen the "light blades" armor training, becoming even more deadly with her short swords. Since she also could get weapon finesse as a rogue talent, she swapped it for double slice. After recalculating her skill points, she even had 3 points to distribute, so, as a specialist (she only has Climb, Stealth, Acrobatic, Perception, Disguise and Escape Artist) she also became much more dangerous.

Compared to them, the spellcasters did not seem to improve that much. Quinquin is a transmuter, and his school powers are useful indeed. Since he intends to use mainly his telekinetic fist in combat, I let him swap the rapid reload feat to Improved channeling. However, since most of his skills remained the same, he had to lose quite a lot of skill ranks he originally acquired at first level; this change was barely balanced with his +3 bonuses.

Shraash fights with axes, so he has no much use neither the Wooden fist, nor the Icicle power. Obscuring Mist, Barkskin and Resist Energy seem to fit well into his combat-oriented style. He also had to give up quite a lot of skill points he originally distributed at 1st level. However, since he is now able to sunder not only weapons, but armor, too, he will be a much more dangerous opponent from now. Since he had Power Attack only to be able to have Improved Sunder, I let him to swap it to Toughness (a much more powerful feat than before).

So the two rogues became instantly and obviously more powerful -- this change seems a bit more drastic than in the case of the spellcasters. A rogue use her skills a lot; the rogue/fighter fighting with two short swords profits highly of the weapon and armor training. They also have more feats than the spellcaster. I am not sure that the few school/domain powers can make up for it. Shraash, on the other hand, who is using a few combat-related feats, also gained some benefits.

However, everybody seems happy with his/her character, so so far, so good.

I also converted the NPCs of the next adventure. Since cross-skills do not have the previous disadvantage, the guards (fighters) of the mansion the player will have to infiltrate insantly became much more vary (they have relatively high Perception skills). I really like that. They also became more dangerous opponents because of the new fighter abilities.

The main opponent (not an enemy) is a sorcerer with the Fey bloodline; she certainly became much more interesting and unique.