Trollsmyth's page

Can't say much about the Fomorians either. How did they beat out the other giants?

Edit: My guess (from a glance at the SRD) is because Fomorians seem to be property of WotC and not OGL.

The Fomorians beat out the other giants in large part, I suspect, because of their link to Irish mythology. The feywild seems to have a strong celtic influence on its design.

- Brian

As I was reading this, the first thing to pop into my mind was, "Damn, but Nicolas Logue must be dying to write an adventure based on a fomorian court." If you thought "Hook Mountain Massacre" was torture-porn, you ain't seen nothin' yet. ;D

- Brian

1) Do you plan to convert to the new edition of D&D?

Nope. But then, I never converted over to 3.x from 2.0. So I'm a bit of a grognard in that respect.

2) If Paizo converts its RPG products to 4.0, how will that affect your purchasing patterns for our products?

3) If Paizo does not convert its RPG products to 4.0, how will that affect your purchasing patterns for our products?

My Paizo purchases have been spotty, and I buy when something catches my eye. Your Pathfinder series looks like fun, but I generally snag them randomly and then plunder them for ideas in my own campaigns. If you really want my business, here's what you need to do:

A) Continue the True20 support. I play that game when I'm not playing D&D 2.0.

B) Go deep! I mean, treat me to non-crunchy info I can use in any campaign. I'm very much looking forward to how Paizo portrays the drow in your 3rd Pathfinder series. What I've seen in RotRL's has really whetted my appetite for your take on their culture and customs.

C) Continue to use inspiring art. Yeah, I know, I'm shallow that way. WAR has done some great work for you. I look forward to seeing more from him, as well as other artists I've not yet heard of.

Best wishes for '08,
Brian

On the subject of "balance" which has come up a few times here, when game designers talk about balance, they almost never mean a balance between the PCs and NPCs. Such balance is impossible.

There's nothing to stop the DM from throwing bigger and tougher challenges at the party. If the DM chooses a TPK, there is absolutely nothing in the rules that will stop it.

Nothing.

Because the DM has control over the entire world. The DM can throw armies of orcs, a ferocious blizzard, and an erupting volcano at the PCs all at once.

Cows fall, everyone dies.

Balance, in game mechanics, deals almost exclusively with PCs. At its most basic level, balance is about everyone being of equal importance in the game, of equal utility. Sometimes it's about direct combat ability, but mostly it's about being useful in the dungeon compared to the other characters.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

- Brian

It's very, very easy to get swept up in the hype. On either end. Both sides are jabbing right for the emotional jugular, because neither side has facts they can really use yet.

If it makes you feel better, head over to the Dragonsfoot boards and read how people are still playing 1st edition AD&D and the sky has not fallen, nor has the earth split asunder to swallow them into a lake of fire. Like the rules in your favorite RPG, all this fuss and bother is optional. If you don't like it, ignore it.

It's annoying when things change suddenly, and without our permission. But that's life, and yeah, it makes me feel old, too, sometimes. I pull out my old Moldvay basic and remember reading it under the covers with a flashlight, so looking forward to playing my first game of D&D. I remember cold and rainy days, huddled over sheets of graph paper, building the ultimate dungeon for my friends to test their mettle against. I remember staying up all night, eating pizza and swilling soda, laughing too loud and daring to face the assassins guild down in their own hall, my best friends in the whole world, or any other world, at my side.

This is what our hobby is about. Everything else is stuff and nonsense.

- Brian

Hi everyone, my name is Nick...I'm a 4E freelancer/playtester.

Um, but Nic, have you, uh, ever tried not being a 4e freelancer/playtester? ;)

Thanks for your thoughts. I look forward to hearing more when you can say it.

Uh, oh wait, we need more spite and vitriol in this thread to keep up our quota. Uh...

Nicolas Logue likes 4e?!? Oh noes! This must mean inbred ogre redneck is a character class!!!1! And feats will be named things like "you shure got a purdy mouth" and "greater arterial spray". It's the end, I tell you! THE END!!!

There, that's better.

- Brian

Actually, I think D&D Experience is the prefect place to get a first look. The folks who go will probably know 3.5 backwards and forwards, so they'll be most likely to recognize the changes, and possibly explain their impact on the game.

You don't really know a game until you've watched a munchkin tear it apart. ;)

It won't convince many who have already decided that they must love/hate the game, either way. But some of those won't be convinced, even after they've had the chance to play the game.

- Brian

This is why Ptolus is the wave the future.

RPG books are a pain to put together. The rules have to be tested, layout is difficult, and the fans require lots of original color art on glossy paper. And then, after your book finally ships, these same demanding fans will try to get away with buying as few copies of your book as is humanly possible. ;p

Seriously, there's a reason nobody has retired rich from this business. No matter how well the RPG stuff sold, the profit margins simply couldn't compete with paperback fiction, which requires no playtesting, minimal layout, and only cover art. And that's not even getting into the economies of scale that result from the much wider audience fiction enjoys over RPGs.

- Brian

Well, since this thread keeps bobbing back up, why the heck not add in my two coppers?

After all, this is turning into a serious issue, and even the devout are becoming discouraged.

I spoke about this with my wife this morning. She's worked in the publishing business professionally, both inside and outside the gaming world. She said a lot of the problem is likely the loss of hard deadlines. In dead-tree publishing, you promise the printer to deliver the materials to be printed by a certain date. If you miss that date, it costs you money. These sorts of hard deadlines trickle down through the entire organization, prodding people to keep on the ball.

With digital publishing, such deadlines no longer exist, and it appears the folks running Dragon and Dungeon need those sorts of deadlines to act as a spur towards productivity. Sure, there have been a few good articles. But they're behind in bundling their issues, the offerings seem to be trickling in at an ever slower pace, and the case really hasn't been made as to why digital is better for the consumer than dead-tree. This is a disaster because Dungeon and Dragon, which at one point *had* a loyal audience, should have been the beach-head upon which the campaign to sell the digital initiative could have been based.

The OP's anger is, perhaps, unjustified, but it's being replaced in many quarters with something even worse: apathy and disinterest. So far as most of the people I talk games with are concerned, Dungeon and Dragon are *dead*. The magazines simply no longer exist in their minds, and are not even considered when they talk about resources in the hobby. The idea that some out-of-nowhere publication like Kobold Quarterly could possibly challenge Dragon as *the* flagship periodical of the hobby is simply amazing. And yet, here we are, primarily, I think, because Baur (who once wrote me the most useful and polite rejection letter I've ever received) honestly seems interested in his magazine.

Granted, WotC still has time to turn things around. Even without a proper teasing of the fanbase, 4th edition is certain to make a splash. But they need to have D&D Insider up and looking sharp by June. If they can't feed the rabid fanboy frenzy the release spawns, they'll have lost their best chance to transform their digital offerings into the sorts of "necessities" that Dragon and Dungeon used to be.

- Brian

1. Have you purchased a Planet Stories novel or anthology yet? If so, which one(s)?

Yes. I just ordered Northwest of Earth. Elak of Atlantis is probably next, and I'm very curious about Gygax's Sorceress book. He's a bit hit-and-miss with me, though, so I may wait for a review first.

2. What author in the Planet Stories line most interests you?

Ready for a cop-out answer? The one I haven't heard of yet! Honestly, you guys keep pulling out these exciting authors I've never even heard of before. Keep that up!

Otherwise, probably Gygax, Kuttner, and Brackett.

3. Please list the following genres in the order you would prefer that we focus on in late 2008 and beyond:

My Order of Preference:

4. What can I do to get you to buy more Planet Stories books?

Apparently, get people to talk about them over at RPG.net. ;p

Here's what happened with me: I've known about the Planet Stories line for a while, and while intrigued, they only went into the middle of my list of "must reads", which is a pretty hefty stack of books. I was reading some thread over at RPG.net, and they mentioned Northwest, with a link to the wikipedia entry for him. I thought he sounded damned cool, so I did a search to see if I could find any of the stories. And lo and behold, there's a Planet Stories book on sale at Amazon.

My suggestion is to get these books in the hands of people who will write about them online where folks like me will see them. That means RPG.net, Instapundit, Fear the Boot (they have an entire section of their chat boards devoted to reading), and Dragonsfoot.

Also, you might consider a different style for the cover art. I like the art, it's good, but it doesn't GRAB ME and DRAG ME BY THE SCRUFF OF MY NECK to the checkout counter. The look is too soft, too unfocused. The characters ooze out of the backgrounds, or melt into shadow. It's far too much "soft focus" for me. But then, I grew up buying paperbacks with covers by guys like Frazetta, who does the muddy background but with strong, distinct foreground characters, and Whelan, who is the Prince of Sharpness. This might be me stuck in the past, and the current audience might prefer what you've been using.

5. If we offer a monthly subscription with, say, a 30% discount off the cover price, would you consider subscribing?

Probably not. You've got some authors there I'm not interested in reading, and some stories I've already read. I don't need new editions, unless you're offering me something really specially, and that's not likely so long as the format remains paperback.

Hope this helps,
Brian

Wonderful! :D

I love not only how you've tied your characters together (twin siblings is something I've never seen before) but how deeply you've woven your characters into the setting. This is truly exceptional RP and I'm reminded too often just how rare it is.

I hope you all are having as much fun playing as I am reading these. Can anyone point me to the other journals from this campaign?

Thanks and keep up the great RP,
Brian

Well, we'll all know soon enough. And I believe the folks getting to play 4th edition at D&D Experience next month won't be under NDA, so we're likely to get a few peeks out of that.

- Brian

Like PDF or all electronic 3.5 books/feats/skills and the like? Or just basic stuff?

SE

Well, PDF of new 4.0 releases, last I heard. I've not heard a thing about 3.x books.

More info can be found here: http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e#insider

- Brian

Uh, how is this a dastardly move on WotC's part? That's fairly standard NDA behavior in any industry. If you're part of the team test-driving a new car, a new operating system, or even a toaster, you're not supposed to talk about the product to the general public without specific permission from the company you're doing the testing for. And none of them want you to release negative info, especially since the goal of the testing process is to remove the negative aspects from the product.

Yes, they're only going to allow positive statements about the game at this point. That hardly matters, since we'll know in six months if the game does or doesn't live up to the hype. This isn't like movies, where they only need to sucker you in on opening weekend. WotC is hoping to sell you three core books, D&D Insider, and a new book every month or two afterwards. If the game sucks, they are screwed, and no amount of happy-happy good press is going change that.

Also, every NDA I've ever seen has an expiration date. When the NDA expires, there's nothing stopping any of the playtesters from revealing their true feelings about the game.

- Brian

Until we do get to see the rules, for all we know combat is resolved by rolling a D6. On a 2+ the players win.

Oh, absolutely. The game could be very quick but with utterly boring combat. Though I’d counter that’s not much different from previous editions of D&D. I’m sure you know the old joke about how D&D is like bingo: somebody calls out numbers and other people get excited about them. ;)

Seriously, from what we know so far, and what we can see in the stat-blocks, it appears that D&D will continue with the usual combat tropes of to-hit rolls, saving throws, and hit points. If that sort of thing floats your boat, 4.0 will probably keep you happy.

I disagree with the assumption, made by others, not Disenchanter, that fast combat means the PCs wade through enemies like a scythe through grass. True20 combat is also noticeably faster than 3.x combat. However, I don’t think anyone who’s played both games can honestly say that True20 is less deadly, especially for the PCs.

Finally, I have to reserve judgment on what, if any, social rules 4.0 is going to use. They’ve promised some, but I’m not holding my breath on them being anything more than minor tweaks to what we’ve seen in 3.x, probably based on what was used for their latest iteration of the Star Wars rules.

I will say that most folks appear to be able to get along just fine without social rules, judging by the success of previous editions of D&D. As the traditional style of play uses combat far in excessive of social-fu, I think they could probably drop social rules entirely and still create a commercially successful game. I don’t think they’ll take this route, however. But even if the social mechanics they do publish stink, I think most folks will house-rule them into something that’s endurable if the combat works very well for them. That, also, is a D&D tradition.

- Brian

He doesn't say anything definite - including his experience as a player or DM. I highly doubt he's going to say anything too negative - though the fact that even he calls the most powerful thing in the 9 Hells short of the levels' rulers a one trick pony makes me laugh. Basically, this means nothing.

No, he does say something, something very important and something we've heard from multiple people:

By the time my NDA playtest group got through our first session, we'd (unintentionally) fought three massive combats in one four hour session, many multiple opponents each time. When we finished we all kind of sat back, glassy-eyed, and went "wow."

This is about as close to a hard, useful fact as anyone playing with 4th edition can give us without info-dumping entire pages of rules. Three massive combats in four hours is huge! Even assuming you did nothing but combat, you couldn't pull that off right now in 3rd edition. 3rd edition is sssssslllllllooooooowwwwww, painfully so, so slow, I don't have time to play it.

And this wasn't a group that was familiar with the rules, working together like a well-oiled machine. This was "our first session". Think about that a moment. With their first time actually using the rules together, perhaps even the first time some of them had even used these characters, they pulled off three multi-foe combats in four hours time.

I'm not a big fan of 4.0 yet, I've even said on my blog I probably won't be migrating over. But if the game really does play this smoothly, it deserves to be a huge hit, even if everything else about it is utterly wretched.

- Brian

This is over at the 4th edition FAQ at ENWorld, from the conference call:

5. Under Phase One, how are rules distributed to freelancers?

A company’s NDA covers their agents and contractors. As such, any freelancer for a publisher is legally bound by their NDA. The pre-release rules will be three copies of a physical document (although WotC is flexible on the quantity, and may provide more copies if necessary.) Companies working together as partners only pay one fee.

So yes, companies that get involved in the early release program can bring in freelancers, and these freelancers would be bound by the NDA.

- Brian

I still believe that 4.0 is inevitable. Trying to stick with 3.5 or trying to work a 3.P would be the same as all those other lesser known systems and independents out there.

Do you really think Paizo could make a stand against the rest of the industry?

Possibly. Keeping in mind that most of the industry is being shut out for six months, they'd hardly be alone.

What it really comes down it is what the actual players are going to do. Will they convert over right away? Wait a bit to see what happens? Wait a year or two to see if there's a 4.5?

The thing is, nobody knows for certain. When TSR released 2nd edition, a lot of folks never bothered to convert over, and this was before such things as the internet, the OGL, and all of that. Conversion means more than just ponying up the cash for new books, it also means learning an entirely new system, converting your home campaign to the new system, and selling the new system to everyone in the group.

I think 4th edition will do very well, simply from inertia. I also think how well 4th edition sells isn't nearly as important to WotC as how well the DI does, and that looks like a horrible mess right now. But I'm no industry insider, and, like you, I'm mostly just making barely-educated guesses.

- Brian

There are a number of freelancers who are in the playtests. They've seen the rules, and they are, right now, working on projects for companies like Necromancer Games. Here's a very amusing quote from Mr. Peterson on this very subject:

By the way, working on the Advanced Player's Guide (name may change, I'd love to call it something else) has been hillarious. I literally have no idea what is in my own book since I dont have the rules yet and any work that has been done has been by a freelancer under an NDA. So I said--you know what I want, get going! He has created classes and races but he cant show them to me yet. How funny is that!

The freelancer doesn't need to pony up the $5k, since it's Necromancer Games that will be publishing the book. And while they might have to change things to fit the final form of the rules, they can certainly get a good head-start on their projects. That means more time for editing, playtesting, art, and quality control.

- Brian

I'm no 4e hater, though I doubt I'll be jumping on board, seeing as how I never jumped on board with 3.5. Still, don't assume that "most" will migrate over to 4.0. I can't find it now, but Ryan Dancey gave a number for the percentage of folks who never migrated from 1st edition AD&D to 2nd, and I was shocked. When they started marketing 3rd edition, they were pretty concerned that people wouldn't adopt it. The whole point of the OGL was to flood the market with cool 3rd edition adventures and supplements in hopes that the wide range would tempt more people over to the new edition.

I'm not saying that 4th edition is doomed. I am saying that it's popularity isn't inevitable. Green Ronin has positioned themselves nicely to have their cake and eat it too. True20 and M&M will continue on as they have, and try for a little surge with new product and more-open licensing. I've heard from a few small-time presses and freelance writers who are seriously considering working on True20 during WotC's imposed moratorium on most 3rd-party 4th edition product. But I'll bet Green Ronin is also seriously considering getting a 4th edition version of Freeport out as soon as possible.

That all being the case, I'd be surprised if WotC doesn't bend over backwards to help folks like Paizo get good product out as soon as possible. The point of the fee and the limited access for 3rd-party developers is to avoid the glut of lousy product that happened with the release of 3rd edition.

I think WotC has fumbled a bit in their marketing. I'd love to see some hard marketing data on exactly what most current RPGers are planning to do. I doubt such research exists, and if it does, I know I won't be getting to see it anytime soon. In the meantime, I don't envy anyone who works in this industry. The next year is going to be one wild ride.

- Brian

Actually, I’m not certain that 4.5 (or whatever they choose to call it) is as inevitable as everyone says. And I think there’s a good chance that the next version of the game will have either free or very cheap core books, published as loss-leaders.

The truth is, the monthly book-publishing game is a loser’s bet. Paizo’s got a great thing going with Pathfinder, but they’re not resting on those laurels, you’ll notice. Everyone else has to scramble to find something else to publish next month. After the core books, how do you keep ‘em coming back for more? PHB and DMG II, additional MMs, Complete whatever books… The problem is, you really can just play with the core books, and you don’t need anything else. And that’s how far too many of us play. That’s no model for profits or growth if you want to cater to RPGers.

This is why they pulled Dragon and Dungeon in-house. Expect a LOT of the focus to turn on D&D Insider. Right now, five or six people can play the game with the purchase of just three core books shared between them. D&D Insider promises to collect a monthly fee from each of them. That’s an income that would be insane even by WotC’s standards.

This is, of course, a two-way street. Nobody will pay if there’s no real value there. Simply giving folks who live in the hinterlands a chance to find like-minded folks to play the game with might be enough. Yeah, there are free tools out there that allow you to do the same thing, but if WotC does their job right, their online gaming table will make it easy to find a game, easy to get into a game, and easy to run a game. Plus all the extra content they’re talking about having in Insider will only sweeten the pot. Providing useful tools that not only let me play the game, even when I can't find a face-to-face group, but also improve the quality of my play, are things I might be willing to pay for. I've certainly had more fun playing D&D than I ever have in clicking through a MMOG.

Unfortunately for WotC it’s all just talk right now. Online Dungeon and Dragon have been less than impressive. Their little gnome and beholder videos were cute, but hardly the stuff of legend. They really need to pull out their A-game on this.

I’m going to make a bold prediction here. By the time 5th edition rolls around, and I’m guessing 2013 or so, D&D Insider will either have proven itself the wave of the future or bombed horribly. If it’s standing triumphant, than a lot of RPG publishers will be trying to recast themselves as service companies along WotC’s model, and will be giving away their books for free as loss-leaders. When 5th edition comes out, if it isn’t free, it’ll be peanuts compared to what the books cost today. Or, if D&D Insider falls flat on its face, the D&D brand will be up on the auction block. And the bidders won’t be heavy-hitters like Hasbro and Milton Bradley, but outfits like Kenzer and Necromancer Games.

(Yeah, I know, there’s all sorts of room for this to fall into between the Second Coming and Gotterdammerung. But what the hell fun is predicting that things will muddle on mostly like they always have in the past?)

- Brian

I'd even say the sex fades to the background for the most part. She plays the "I must be tortured in order to distract the villain" card a few times, but it's rarely played for kinks.

I adore the setting, and that alone dragged me through parts of the second book. The third book was a lot better, but again, it gets away from the stuff that's way cool (the culture of angel-touched France) to linger in the tropes of traditional quest fantasy.

All in all, however, I do recommend them.

- Brian

Paizo wants to sell 1) a series of adventures that take place in their own campaign setting and 2) their own campaign setting. These two things may or may not be allowed under the nOGL. We just don't know for sure yet.

We don't know, but if doing so is proscribed, I'll be so shocked, someone will probably have to take me to a hospital. WotC's intent appears to be preventing the publication of anything that might replace a core book, like the PHB. So Paizo will probably be free to create all the gods, character classes, races, spells, skills, and weapons they want, so long as they don't give you rules for creating a character or how to roll to-hit.

In short, I fully expect publishing "Paizoland: a Campaign World for Use with D&D 4.0" to be just fine. Publishing "Paizoland: the Stand-alone RPG that Happens to use the Same Mechanics as, or Mechanics Derived From, D&D 4.0" will be verboten.

Even if the OGL is solid and allows them to publish everything according to their business plan, they then have to determine if their customer base will find the new rules acceptable and will convert over quickly to 4E or just convert over eventually or never. I trust Paizo to make the call that is best for their business.

I think it will be in their interest to port over. I say that, however, having learned recently from Ryan Dancey that the number of folks who remained with 1st Edition AD&D after 2nd was released was far, far higher than I'd expected. And this was before the internet, PDFs, or an OGL.

I'm extremely curious to know how they'll make that choice. Accurate data on these sorts of questions isn't always easy to come by. Just as the pollsters who were trying to read the tea-leaves on the New Hampshire primaries. ;)

- Brian

I imagine Paizo has the least to fear from the new OGL.

Paizo wants to sell adventures, and WotC wants to see adventures being sold for 4.0. The new OGL probably bends over backwards for folks like Paizo. Goodman Games has already announced that they will be an early adopter of 4.0, and this surprises nobody.

Splat books are a bit more mixed, but in general, WotC would like to see lots of them as well, as evidence of "support" for 4.0. Necromancer Games has already announced that they are an early adopter to 4.0.

New games, especially new core books, appear to be something WotC does not want to encourage. In fact, from what little I've seen, it appears to be something they'd like to stamp out. I'm no lawyer, and I've not seen it, but the new OGL appears to prohibit 4.0 versions of True20 and Conan d20. I would be very surprised if either Mongoose or Green Ronin ponies up the $5k to play early. It really depends on how the numbers look for products like "City of Freeport".

Again, this is all speculation by someone who does not work in the industry and hasn't seen the OGL. And, at the end of the day, issues like the amount of time Paizo needs to organize, craft, print, and distribute an entire adventure path might have a bigger impact on what Paizo does than the actual form of the NDA and OGL.

- Brian