Trimalchio's page

Killing some level 3 monsters when they roll -10 vs the save against a level 9 character is pretty underwhelming, and we're already assuming they are all lined up in a cone for the wizard.

Of course since the wizard is getting +9 to their AC from just being level 9 the ogres will probably not even be able to hit the wizard anyway.

Blasting always been a sub optimal choice, but it starting to sound absolutely abysmal.

Will the design team be adding material components for every spe,? Otherwise the syntax of using a material casting action is confusing.

Also ranges are fixed? It's a simplifing choice, but is it a better choice? Is 120 feet particularly memorable?

I would prefer the second line order to be size, type, alignment so the ogre would be 'Large, Giant, Humanoid, Chaotic, Evil'

I'm concerned about hit point inflation, especially when my impression so far has been that player damage output is going to be much flatter and in general smaller.

The speed seems off for the ogre, does being large not improve land speed anymore? I second that reach under weapon is confusing, it should be explicit what reach the ogre has with and without a weapon.

I applaud listing just the stat bonus instead of the stat, if only the design team were brave enough to do that PCs as well, mixing the two will just be confusing unfortunately, how will Paizo write up NPCs, what about an ogre with a PC level?

I've built a number of monsters myself and I agree that after all the work you often end up with stats that are all over the place, and often need some arbitrary changes anyways, but my reaction is to try and fix that instead of just throwing it out and making up numbers... making up numbers is especially disconcerting when we get comments like the redcap skill bonus is off by one... so the numbers aren't made up, or only some of them are?

It's important that monsters are customizable, I should be able to have an ogre pickup a great sword and a breastplate without any issues or cast mage armor on the redcap and not wonder if they get the entire armor bonus or not, it improves verisimilitude, overly restrictive or simplistic stat blocks are going to make that difficult.

Finally monsters should have more skills or racial talents or something, like craft (any), I know these are missing their descriptions / ecology section but as of now the only purpose in life for that ogre is to be killed by a PC which is a little sad, hopefully monsters in general will exist in a way that gives life to the game world. PF2 is an opportunity to make a better more life-like ogre.

I assume travel rations will be a standard item at low levels, will that be in bulk or pounds? How does the domain power interact with my L bulk of trail rations? If trail rations are by pound, can I just carry an infinite amount of food and water?

Why are you listing pints of water and pounds of food? You really need to either use bulk or pounds (or kg), going between them willy nilly will just make a great confused mess of things.

I've been pretty vocal about my issues with bulk, but being inconsistent is an even worse decision.

Also what is power 1 power 2, is that level based like item 1 item 3?

In addition are all spells going to be rewritten to specify bulk instead of weight?

My basic issue with bulk is that it doesn't mean anything. What's 10 bulk, 50 bulk, it practically jibberish. It's another leaky abstraction in a game that naturally fills up with them, making it increasingly difficult to tell a coherent story. Ideally rules and sub systems give you more understanding and grounding in the world, not less.

Combine bulk with 'item level' I feel like I'm half way to playing some new mobile game. Id be a lot more inclined to bulk if there was a clear conversion, but then I'd wonder why there was ever bulk in the first place.

How much does the unconscious cleric weigh, 4 bulk? What about the dead dire bear, and how much bulk can you drag? The stone door, it weighs ?bulk?

Bag of holding going is going to be 1 bulk, and hold.. ?bulk? portable hole, L? And carry ?bulk or will it still be by dimension? Will there be a new Volume term, the portable hole will hold 100 Vs?

Making up abstract game terms when someone justs to know a basic fact like weight of object really destroys attempts to run a more simulationist game which is a relative strength of 3.x systems.

Rules Artificer wrote:

Cyouni wrote:

1 hand to hold it and one to trigger it. Pulling granade pins with the teeths only happens in films.

What a coincidence, we happen to be playing a fantasy game as well! :D

But seriously, from everything that's been said, these are flasks packed with dangerous reagents, not grenades with fuses to be lit.

As such, I don't see why you can't throw it with one hand.

Go throw a baseball. Even still you hold it in one hand, direct it with one hand. You don't stand straight and statuesque and throw it. It uses the whole of your body to get a good throw. Even if not being 'held' in both hands for the period of the throw your other hand is... lets call it occupied.

You mean the hand which has a baseball glove on it?

What is item 1 item 2 item 3 at the top of each entry?

Also not fan of the bulk system, would prefer weight.

4d6 seems pretty lack luster, is it one action to throw, so someone could throw 3 of these a round?

Are alchemical items designed to not be used by anyone besides alchemists past level 3?

The more I think about the resonance the more issues I have with it.

The heaviest users of hp are front line fighters, it seems especially punishing for a class that traditionally dumps Cha to depend on it for healing, leaving less resonance for actual magical advantages.

Next it hurts the cleric because everytime they use any spell that isn't a heal the party tank is going to grumble that it's one less heal and they'll need to compensate for it with their limited resonance pool.

In comparison the wizard often skips the hp mini game leaving more room for magic items, doubly so because many magic items they will bypass with spells.

So a child watches beasts from a cliff? That's your compelling evidence, that children don't engage in military affairs?

You should reread this thread to understand what actual compelling evidence contains. I'm done quoting the massive pile of material that proves you're utterly wrong.

I have yet to see any compelling evidence that goblins are not in fact killed on site in the vast majority civilized areas in Golarion. And multiple people have cited multiple sources that goblins are in fact treated as a dangerous threat to be eliminated.

Until someone cites actual sources going around and saying killing goblins on site isn't Canon is literally false, stop saying false things. Its utterly dishonest in conversation to continue to argue a false premise that has been debunked multiple times from multiple sources.

I'm sorry if your individual view of Canon was so utterly incorrect as to believe goblins aren't killed on cite, but the textual evidence to support your incorrect and faulty beliefs does not exist. It doesn't exist. It just doesn't. Please prove me wrong.

Except resonance is how often a character can use an item, not benefit from them. In the future, PF2 heroes will still carry CLW but also be accompanied by 50 day laborers, preferably charismatic goblins, to ensure a steady supply of resonance.

Yes! I hope so, I hope it's not hand waived or half hearted but big and memorable.

My gripe was the preview didn't include a single mention of this, but it was added later by a Dev. I wish they'd put it in the preview, but so it goes.

Rat bait is placed in public land commonly by private companies and local governments.

That's just rats. Again for productive assets like fields of corn we shower it in killer chemicals. We, as a species, seriously discussing the complete eradication of mosquitoes through genetic engineering.

You can make the claim I am being obtuse but you can't actually furnish any proof, meanwhile I can quote multiple bad faith interpretations from others in this discussion. But let's not, it's just toxic, and normally I would just give up and move on since it feels like I'm talking to a brick wall, but in this instance the argument against my singular point is so ludicrous I keep trying because it is comedic the depths of absurdity of please are willing to stoop to defend -- and what are they even defending, goblins, Paizo desire to make goblins a core race for adventurers? Even the developers acknowledged that the current goblin Canon needs to change to make that happen. That's been my only point, the current Canon is unequivocal -- goblins are not tolerated by the vast majority of civilization and are often hunted down and killed without qualms or legal complicatiobs or ethical complications. They are killed on sight, if a gobin shows up outside a city gate and a guard puts a crossbow bolt through it's torso, no one bats and eye, the only thing that happens is they argue about whose duty it is to throw the corpse in the nearest dung heap.

Again, people seize on a single word and decide to interpret that single word in a way that is most sympathetic to their beliefs while ignoring the mountains of other clarifying and contextual information.

goblins are 'remarkable' for their drive to cause others pain and suffering. They eat other sentient races. Humanity has tried to completely eradicate them, mon multiple occasions. They participated in recent wars which are notible for their high casualty rate.

Pest control is an entire domain of human expertise that involves the systemic removal of a species from certain zones. We spray deadly chemicals on entire fields to remove these pests. We are developing methods to try and completely eliminate some pests such as mosquitoes.

I don't know about you but I don't tolerate rats and cockroaches in my domicile, traps are set and exterminators are called.

Entire apartment buildings are vacated and fuminated to kill bed bugs.

The list of what pest control means in a real world societal usage amounts to a continuous murderous rampage by humans against those creatures that damage our well being.

Turning around and saying pests really means your annoying six year old cousin who can't stop taking is a complete nonsequitor. Thats not the extremely clear usage of the word in this context.

Yes it's true words have multiple meanings, purposely picking the alternative meaning to bolster a flimsy argument is... Well certainly not polite nor constructive.

It's frustrating because it feels like you're wilfully misinterpreting clear, repeated textual evidence or giving extremely pained interpretations in an effort to avoid the clear meaning: goblins are viewed by civilied society as pests.

Pests, like cockroaches or rats, are exterminated with extreme prejudice. That's the universally understood meaning of the word pests in English in this context. So the simple answer is goblins are often in fact killed on sight. That's what the current golarion Canon overwhelming has to say about goblins.

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Ryan Freire wrote:

Deadmanwalking wrote:

Trimalchio wrote:

are we both reading the same entries? I will attempt to assist you in the task:

The Goblinblood Wars were huge and horrible. That said, hobgoblins were the foes feared in those wars, pretty explicitly. That's not to say that goblins weren't involved, but they make s$+@ty frontline combatants and wouldn't be the foes most people who fought in that war are gonna remember most vividly.

dude he just GAVE you references of why goblins are the face of that conflict and remain a plague on the regions like an uncleared minefield. What do you have to back up this "hobgoblins were explicitly the foes feared".

The entire first paragraph quoted? Y'know, the one referring repeatedly to the hobgoblins as the ones in charge and the ones who made the army dangerous due their organization? Because, uh, that's like half the first paragraph quoted.

And that's entirely aside from just about every other reference to goblins and hobgoblins anywhere making it clear that this is the case.

Deadmanwaking is right. The Inner Sea World Guide entry on Isger states clearly that it was hobgoblin tribes that attacked. They were augmented by goblin slaves, yes, but hobgoblins were the primary aggressors.

No he's wrong, the exact quote is "legions of goblin slaves"

Goblins were a prominent component of the Goblinblood wars. Go read the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting

hundreds of goblin tribes exploded
from the forest like a great green
geyser. The goblins murdered an
untold number of travelers and
merchants along the Conerica
Straits before their momentum
carried them to the Isgeri towns
eking out existences at the feet of
the Five Kings Mountains.

From the same book:
Logas: Nestled dangerously close to the
Chitterwood, the city of Logas keeps a fresh
supply of dead goblins mounted on pikes
along its walls at all times.

and just to continue, what you think roving death squads actually do, do you somehow believe they strike up conversations and ask,

Hey are you like a good goblinoid or like totally evil cause if you're evil we're going to murder you because that's why we're here, we actually named ourselves after the act of hunting you and your kind down for the purpose of murdering.So evil?

Yes, no?

I'm really just amused at this point that you think you can actually defend your position.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Greenskin_Stalkers

The Greenskin Stalkers are a gang of rangers and slayers obsessed with killing all goblinoid creatures. Originally formed in Isger during the Goblinblood Wars, the Stalkers' obsession leads many to disturbingly immerse themselves in the thoughts and acts of goblins in order to better track and kill them, even if it leads to their own deaths.[1]

While inspired by Isger's long-settled signature conflict, the group continues to recruit new members, spreading its influence into the River Kingdoms and Varisia.[1]

sin·gu·lar·ly
ˈsiNGɡyələrlē/Submit
adverb
in a remarkable or noticeable way.
"you have singularly failed to live up to your promises"
synonyms: remarkably, extraordinarily, exceptionally, very, extremely, really, outstandingly, signally, particularly, incredibly, decidedly, supremely, distinctly, tremendously; More
in a strange or eccentric way.
"Charlotte thought her very singularly dressed"

Fine, goblins are not renowned for their sadism and cruelty, they are... "remarkable" or perhaps "Distinctive" or "Exceptional" for their sadism and cruelty.

Goblins
Most other races view them as virulent parasites that have proved impossible to exterminate.

While they fear the bigger races, goblins' short memories and bottomless appetites mean they frequently go to war or execute raids against other races to sate their pernicious urges and fill their vast larders.

Relations: Goblins tend to view other beings as sources of food, which makes for poor relations with most civilized races. Goblins often survive on the fringes of human civilization, preying on weak or lost travelers and occasionally raiding small settlements to fuel their voracious appetites. They have a special animosity toward gnomes, and celebrate the capturing or killing of such victims with a feast. Of the most common races, half-orcs are the most tolerant of goblins, sharing a similar ancestry and experiencing the same hatred within many societies. Goblins are mostly unaware of half-orcs' sympathy, however, and avoid them because they are larger, meaner, and less flavorful than other humanoids.

Their pernicious nature makes interacting with civilized races almost impossible, so goblins tend to adventure on the fringes of civilization or in the wilds.

~~

You are aware that goblins are a goblinoid yes? What other core race has roving death squards dedicated to their eradication?

This above quotes are from the Race Guide. So yeah, there needs to be a definite walk back of the Canon.

Trimalchio wrote:

And so on, so yeah I'm actually pretty concerned that there was no in Canon explanation for allowing Goblin adventures because _I_ like the Golarion Canon quite a bit and pay attention to it and it's pretty wild to read people try and walk back the textual evidence we have of how Goblins are viewed in Golarion.

I also require an actual explanation for goblin adventurers becoming more common.

However, according to Jason Bulmahn (who has the authority to make it true) there is explicitly going to be such an explanation. In the next, y'know, more than a year before the book actually comes out. We don't have it yet because this is a playtest, and one that hasn't even started yet.

Trimalchio wrote:

I've been gaming for 20+ years, I'm well aware of the definition of goblinoid, and yet people can read a text which explicitly states goblins were involved in a large, bloody war and write it off.

It's right there in the wiki, "hobgoblin commanders led hundreds of hobgoblin and goblin tribes". The text even explicitly mentions how much more dangerous the goblins were because they were being organized by hobgoblin leaders.

I'm certainly not denying they were involved. I'm saying that based on lots of other textual evidence (including several references to how people view both goblins and hobgoblins in-universe), most of the anger people feel for this seems to fall on the hobgoblins.

I've provided textual evidence, where's yours? So far you've only given out unsupported opinions. Again, go read the goblin entry in the inner sea world guide, goblins are renowned for their sadism and cruelty.

My point is the Canon is very well established, goblins are a menace to polite society, there are roving death squads dedicated to their eradication. Sure maybe Demons or Hobgoblins or whatever are even more evil, but that isn't a coherent argument that puts goblins in a better light.

Paizo needs to walk back the decisions they made in their Canon to justify Goblin adventures not being killed on sight. I'm rather disappointed we didn't get a single sentence addressing this in the preview.

I've been gaming for 20+ years, I'm well aware of the definition of goblinoid, and yet people can read a text which explicitly states goblins were involved in a large, bloody war and write it off.

It's right there in the wiki, "hobgoblin commanders led hundreds of hobgoblin and goblin tribes". The text even explicitly mentions how much more dangerous the goblins were because they were being organized by hobgoblin leaders.

do you have any diary entries or interviews or other canon textual evidence back up that assertion because otherwise that's pretty much a convenient opinion to hold to ignore the canon reality that goblins are universally despised as murderous pests.

it isn't called the hobgoblinblood wars. And the entry is rather explicit about the large role goblins played as common fodder which makes since because goblins breed like rabbits and mature within five years.

Go open a copy of the inner sea world guide and read the entry on goblins:

Goblins are insane, destructive, parasites on greater societies. These diminutive humanoids make use of the refuse and trash such civilizations leave behind. Goblins are singularly eager in the pursuit of sadism and cruelty.

And so on, so yeah I'm actually pretty concerned that there was no in Canon explanation for allowing Goblin adventures because _I_ like the Golarion Canon quite a bit and pay attention to it and it's pretty wild to read people try and walk back the textual evidence we have of how Goblins are viewed in Golarion.

are we both reading the same entries? I will attempt to assist you in the task:

The Wars
In the four year span beginning in 4697 AR,[2][3] hobgoblin commanders led hundreds of hobgoblin and goblin tribes, primarily from Isger's Chitterwood, to attack countless rural settlements in that nation.[4] A series of wars resulted, from Varisia to Taldor, as humanity struggled against the goblinoids who spread across the surface world, attacking and eating everything in their path.[5] The organization of the hobgoblins made these goblinoid tribes particularly dangerous.[4][1] The government in Elidir was at first slow to respond to the goblin menace, perhaps because most of the fighting took place in the nation's more rural areas, leaving the capital largely unscathed. This discrepancy created a fair amount of resentment in Isger's hinterlands, with many declaring that nation's military response would have come much sooner had the capital been threatened.[6]

Untold number of travelers and merchants died along the Conerica Straits, and whole towns were destroyed as far from the Chitterwood as the Five Kings Mountains. The size and deadliness of these attacks triggered an unlikely alliance of neighboring powers to become involved: a small order of Hellknights from Cheliax, a contingent of Druma's Mercenary League, and a regiment of Eagle Knights of Andoran. They combined forces to fight the goblin hordes and contain their spread beyond Isger. Although the alliance was eventually able to destroy the goblinoid forces and drive the survivors back to the Chitterwood, the number of dead on all sides were staggering.[4][1]

Aftermath
Much of the Chitterwood was burned to the ground after the war, causing any goblinoid survivors to hide in caverns below the forests.[4] Notable tribes among these survivors are the True Hoard, the Spine Threshers, and the People of the Stirge.[7] Isger's army was so devastated by the Goblinblood Wars that its steward, Hedvend VI, ordered his remaining forces to ignore most of the country and concentrate its effort along the vital trade route along the Conerica River. As a result much of Isger's hinterlands fell into banditry, which in turn caused the steward to offer bounties for bandit leaders in the hopes of attracting foreign mercenaries to deal with the problem; whether he succeeded in this strategy has yet to be determined.[1]

Greenskin Stalkers
The Greenskin Stalkers are a group that formed during the Goblinblood Wars, but has remained active in the years since. Members specialize in the killing of goblinoid foes and the protection of Isger's population, and have become notorious for their guerilla tactics and occasional suicidal dedication. The group's popularity has grown, and has even spread to neighboring nations with their own goblinoid problems, such as Varisia, and the River Kingdoms.[8]

~~~

That war was so deadly that to this day there are roving bands of suicidal death squads whose only function is to kill goblins.

Come on, try to at least respond to the facts.

I get the distinct sense that most people arguing for goblins in core are unfamiliar with golarion Canon.

Go read the Pathfinder wiki, the first sentence sums it up:

Considered nothing more than murderous pests by most, goblins dwell on the fringes of other societies, scavenging amongst their waste and building their society in squalor.

Not convinced, go read about the goblinblood wars
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Goblinblood_Wars

That was less then 20 years by Canon, it was a Savage, bloody, continent scale war by humanity against goblins.

To include goblins in core is pretty much a complete rewrite of Canon which is upsetting to people who pay attention to the Canon. It would have been nice if the goblins preview actually tried to address this concern.

Really not a fan, especially when you are rolling 1d20, maybe if we we're rolling 2d10 or 3d6 etc.

Combined with the tighter spread were going to have times when against a reasonably tough task the highly accomplished character will roll. 2 or 3 and critically fail, while his untrained buddy rolls a 17 or better and succeeds.

If we were rolling 2d10 this would be a rare event, but on 1d20 this is practically guaranteed to happen once per session, and some unlucky fellow gonna have a very bad evening with repeated critical failure at the tasks they are supposed to be highly accomplished in.

Itll turn the game into a 3 stooges sitcom, which isn't the game I want to play.

I don't want to see someone unskilled but with magic trounce someone highly skilled.

Who cares if the spread becomes 20+, if someone dedicates enormous resources to being the absolute best at stealth then let them. What I absolutely don't want is for everyone to be within a 5 or 7 point spread which will make character choices feel meaningless.

And also tower shields, have they been redone?

William Werminster wrote:

Blog wrote:

At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

Is it me or this sounds like a bit weak sauce for a 14th lvl feature?

At 14th level I'd expect a martial-type character to reflect the fireball back at its caster, plant their shield and create an area the dragon breath just doesn't get to hit at all, blow out the fire like Superman, or absorb the effect with their anti-magic muscles. Something, anything cool enough to fit with what that level is supposed to mean- that they've surpassed mere mortals and are now competing with planar super-beings for stakes like the world. "One of your defenses is slightly better sometimes against certain threats" is woefully inadequate.

Pretty much this. A reflex bonus would of been useful in his career 8 or 9 levels ago, instead the fighter raises his shield and the BBEG lauaghs and casts maze instead, or power word blind, or mass hold person etc.

Everyone seems to have a different line on where martials should be. Personaly, a level 20 fighter should be on par with the upper half of marvel heroes, like silver surfer, hulk, Thor, etc reskinned for fantasy of course.

So It'll be interesting to see what legendary proficiency provides and how people respond.

I hope to see fighters who can richochet fireballs and redirect lightning bolts with their shield, hold their breath for hours or days, go weeks without sleep, shout mass commands to rally or intimidate an army, generate a frightful presence aura, throw their great sword like a boomerang, Herculean feats of strength, and plenty of similar such stuff.

Feel free to go to the math thread which proved Power Attack in PF2E is better than static power attack.

But more than that, rolling dice is straight up more fun.

The math thread can't even agree on what damage die is being used much less what the expected bonus to hit and the AC you're targeting, nor how many attacks you're rolling, nor if it two-handing the weapon for the -1 +3 bonus or one handing it, all of which greatly changes the math behind power attack.

I also find the bonus to reflex saves from a shield at level 14 pretty lack luster. Shouldn't that come online at like level 5 when fireballs are getting tossed around? By level 14 I would expect to be able to sacrifice my shield to deflect a bad save against a ray of disintegration.

Also by not having even a single paragraph on the narrative power of the fighter is concerning to me because it feels like the issues I had ( and many others had) with the fighter isn't being acknowledged by the pf2 developers, it's concerning because if their narrative power isn't a big enough concern to warrant a paragraph in their introduction then all sorts of other issues the community I share have about PF and what we want in a second edition seems increasingly more remote.

What can fighters do off the battlefield to contribute to the narrative?

Fighters never had an especially difficult time hitting the needed dpr, most high level complaints are what do fighters do when the wizard is creating demiplanes and binding devils to their will.

Do they naturally attract followers, have some advantage when leading armies, can class features grant them ways to handle challenges involving flight, underwater, extra planar locations, invisibility, damage immunity to weapons?

Hey there all,

I want to take a moment to thank everyone here for the spirited debate on this part of the game.

I really appreciate the opportunity afforded by the forums for everyone to have this lively debate; I'm truly grateful that the community continues to be open to the wide variety of opinions the various tidbits have engendered. A big thank you to the paizo staff that makes it all happen.

Everyone wants a better game, and everyone has ideas on how to make that happen. It may be a tall order, but I really believe the paizo team can deliver an amazing new edition, as long they engage with their community in an earnest fashion. I play pathfinder now (well starfinder the last month or so) and I look forward to another ten years of role playing under paizo.

I want a better version of pathfinder, I want a pathfinder second edition that fixes all the annoyances from the first edition. But I don't especially want a completely new game with a completely different feel. If i want to play super heroes I can play Mutants and Masterminds, if I wanted bounded accuracy I could play 5th edition, If i wanted to play D&D the computer game I could play 4th edition. But I haven't been playing those games because I rather play pathfinder.

It's far too early to say, but the glimpses and peaks we've gotten so far isn't exactly the fixes and cleanups and re-balances i really wanted from a second edition pathfinder, it's sounding more and more like an entirely different game.

I still mantain that "being able to climb a tree" and "being a superheroe good at everything" are two different things. A superheroic climber is Spiderman, who can climb sheer polished surfaces. Nobody is saying that a sorcerer with no skill proficiencies should be able to become Spiderman.

Just that he should be able to climb a tree.

Go back to the list of all untrained skills from pf1 I listed.

Because that's everyone else is talking about. Climbing a tree is one example.

what people seem to be missing is that in pf1 it is a *choice* to be better at climbing. You spent a *limited* resource and decide to be better at climbing but not better at swimming. And that resource, it goes up per level, I don't see anyone in this thread complaining that high level characters should improve.

Now instead we have *no choice* you *must* be better at not just climbing, but swimming, and bluffing, and perform dance, and all sorts of things that probably never even came for the character during the campaign.

And for people who propose, just ignore the rules, just house rule, just refuse to roll and say you fail, sure people can do that, but why are we even playing pf2 then? And let me ask, if you're at a pathfinder 2 society game and everyone decides they are going to sneak past the guards and one person suddenly says, my fighter, lord Berneer was always a clumsy fellow, i don't roll, i fail my stealth check, what you think will happen at that table? The player likely to be tossed for being disruptive or get collective gasp from fellow players. People are proposing a non solution.

I want variety, I don't all my level 10 characters to essentially be within a -/+3 margin in every single untrained skill, that feels so incredibly boring to me. And worse, completely destroys my agency as a player playing a character.

Trimalchio wrote:

That low wisdom wizard who is brilliant but lacks decorum and often quite gullible? Nope he doesn't exist.

Does it bother you that high level wizards in PF1 are kinda master swordsmen and can shrug off poisons and the like? A base attack bonus of +10 is phenomenal if a professional soldier is a 3rd level warrior. A +6 fortitude save and 100hp is amazing if a bear has a +6 save and 32 hp.

Since this example comes up lets do the math

Level 20 wizard vs level 3 fighter

BA 10/5
str 10

The wizard picks up a long sword, but isn't proficient that's at -4, they are attacking at:
+6/+1 for 1d8

The fighter

BA 3
str 16

The fighter has weapon focus and weapon specialization

that long sword for the fighter attacks at:
+7 for 1d8+5 (or 1d8+6 if two handed)

yeah i'm perfectly ok with that. If the wizard wants to spend a feat to be proficient in long swords, i'm ok with that, if the wizard wants to spend gold or magic to give them a higher strength, i'm okay with that.

What i'm not okay with is a wizard who doesn't spend any resources at all suddenly becoming james bond because that's what the game dictates happens as you level up.
~

How long will the play test be, how committed is the paizo team to overhauling their system in potentially radical ways if majority of feedback is critical of certain sub systems?

Again I like the design space proficiency tiers opens up, but i'm not excited by the current level bonus math, it feels way too gamey, the math needs to support the fluff and we need the flexibility to create characters and stories that we have in pf1, not less and the current bonus by level is really hurting that system. It just feels like they are essentially giving everyone skill points: gain a point in every skill. How many people want to play pathfinder 1st edition where every character gets skill points in all those skills i listed above? I know I don't.

We don't know the skills in PF2, we don't know the breakdown of trained or untrained, and we don't know what gets gated behind the different levels of proficiencies, that said here's what was untrained in pf1

Acrobatics
Appraise
Bluff
Climb
Craft
Diplomacy
Disguise
Escape Artist
Fly
Heal
Intimidate
Perception
Perform
Ride
Sense Motive
Stealth
Survival
Swim

As it stands every high level character no matter their background, class, stats, race, etc etc, will be better at all such skills then a low level character.

That low wisdom wizard who is brilliant but lacks decorum and often quite gullible? Nope he doesn't exist.

That loud mouthed monk who can't settle anything diplomatically? doesn't exist.

The clumsy paladin who can't tiptoe and find his way out of a paper bag? Never will happen.

We're being forced to play hyper competent heroes. That may be cool when you read a story about a single protagonist, but just feels bland and overly restrictive in team driven shared story games. I want my rogue to be different from my wizard, I want to feel like my investment in stealth and bluff matters, is distinctive.

Now every high level character can do backflips, immediately identify a fake picasso or the value of every gem, carpet and statue they come across, free climb mountains, craft anything and everything, settle international peace treaties, are master spies, intuitively know how to handle aerial maneuvers, are combat medics, can intimidate every low level npc ever, can sing, dance, paint, yodel, and play every instrument known, ride all manner of beasts, discern every lie every told by every low level npc, swim in all manner of weathers and survive in nearly every environment.

And if they gateway off basic things like you need to be proficient to forage for food, then it's going to like 2nd edition where a character could make a fire and swim, or swim and climb but not all 3, inevitably dooming them to either freeze to death, drown, or starve at the bottom of a hole.

I agree the spread at times in PF1 is too extreme, but that wasn't the fault of the skill point system, that was because a character can dumpster dive for more bonuses than the skill points could ever give you, not to mention magic would just blow away 20 levels of skill points with a level 2 spell. I wanted the Devs to fix that issue, not throw out the whole system and build something that will just remind me I am playing a game and the only thing that really matters is what level my character sheet says because they will determine 50%+ of how good I am at skills, at every skill, even skills that doesn't make a lick of sense for me to ever have been exposed to.

So far it's hard to justify playing a rogue, just play a full caster, and if you really need to pick locks spend a 'proficiency' or whatever on it, you'll always be just as good at the skills that matter plus you'll have magic.

Skills really are one key way martials can differentiate themselves, but apparently those mundanes can go pound sand.

Milo v3 wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Then again, at that point the barbarian decided that being a lawyer is a significant enough part of her superhuman 15th level character that she spent resources to make it so.

Except they might have decided that at second level, and then never did lawyer things again but are still superhumanly good at it. And even if they don't pick to be trained in it, they're still superhumanly good at it.

The untrained barbarian is more likely to know that Justice Ironbriar is the harshest judge in Magnimar than the law school student, but she still can't actually practice law effectively at all, let alone superhumanly well.

Why? How does that make any sense?

A high level barbarian walks into a city he's never been and he's going to know more about it the than the level 5 Baker whose been there their entire life.

Being able to make high skills checks because you just happened to be high level but have never performed the skill completely breaks immersion, it reminds I'm in a game and the thing that really matters is your level, not the choices you made.

It's not just IDing monsters, it is every single skill that be done untrained.

Climb, swim, bluff, sense motive, stealth, disguise, perform, appraise, slight of hand and so on. And it's not just the barbarian, the level 15 wizard with an 8 strength will be better climber and swimmer, a better everything. A level 15 NPC Baker will be a better pick pocket.

This feels like a mmorpg, next we'll hear about the level 15 guards that keep towns safe from PvP conflicts.

Maybe rogues will get the ability, scan enemy level because I wouldn't want to try anything untoward when I know just being againdt higher level going to hose me in the skill check mini game.

Based on this system a level 15 barbarian completely untrained is going nto walk all over every level 5 highly trained team in every skill.

I guess pf2 is the mmorpg edition.

I welcome the introduction of tiers to skills and other 'proficencies', it's a much welcomed conspection change and will open great design possibilities.

I however also think the spread in the math is wrong and giving what essentially amounts to free skill points because of level feels overly game and silly.

For one I'd change the modifier to -5 +0 +5 +10 +15 of you insist on retaining free advancement from level alone.

I'd rather not just give away these by level and instead give generous amounts of proficiencies, or make the Level asjustment much smaller, maybe more like +1 every 4 levels, and retain the generous proficiency bonuses.

This will destroy the feel of the system, especially at low levels where my rogue doesn't feel all that better at sneaking or bluffing then the barbarian or the cleric. This combined with skill fumbles will be outright frustrating where the level 5 rogue will fail against their unspecialized maybe 25% of the time sometimes fail in some super stupid way because they rolled a one.

I don't want to hear about the spread at level 20, tell us the spread at level 5, level 10, the levels people spend most of their time playing.

As it is a level 5 rogue going to always be worse the level 15 paladin at stealth, is that reasonable, is that thematic, or does it just feel like I'm playing a generic mmorpg and that's the math.

This not why I play PF and not why I play table top.

The design team just get the math right, if the math is wrong it doesn't matter what the fluff says.

I just want to emphasize, missing your attack roll already sucks, to further double down on punishing players is not fun for anyone, I never been at a table, and with over 20 years I've been at lots of tables, where players wanted to play with fumble rules.

Does the wizard casting magic missle get a fumble chance? How many monsters with fumble rules will hurt the wizard catching scorching Ray, or have fumble rules just another way to punish players who made the mistake of playing the fighter or the rogue.

What rogue will want to search for traps or attempt a disarm traps when. Fumble rules are on the table? Just have the Uber sorcerer with resonance to spare use the monster summoning wand to trigger the trap.

I really can't get over what a colossal design mistake bringing back fumble rules are. Find another way to give monsters cool reactions. All you're doing his making people feel even worse when they roll badly.

One of the great advances of 3rd edition was the removal of most fumble checks.

While it's funny when the random bugbear fumbles, it's incredibly frustrating for a highly skilled fighter to drop his weapon every third combat. PCs roll so many more times, they are really going to notice all the fumbles. And to have rumbles scale vs DC is... Frankly bad design, there's really no excusing such a poor decision. The people at Paizo should maybe sit at more game tables and observe game play if they thought this was a good idea.

And will fumbles apply to skill checks, saving throws? Again this is likely to hurt martials more then casters as martials make more attack roles and combat related skill checks. Unless the rules include fumbles for concentration checks.

I will wait to see the actual play test rules but if that's how fumbles work... So incredibly bad, just wow.

I'm super excited by this book.

I hope to see a lot of Golarion lore throughout, I've really grown to enjoy the multiverse. In particular I'd love to have more on the astral plane, silver cords, maybe even a little note on astral projection.

In terms of lore, looking forward to seeing the city of axis as an adventuring location, or the boneyard, maybe more on proteans lords like the Colorless Lord.

Great stuff. I am super excited, players options are great, maybe some monster options as well.

How many pages of art can we expect? I really want to see some expansive landscapes of the planes.

Mundane crafting, unlike magical crafting is 1/3 the total. So at 75/lb the medallion sell value should be 225gp.

I agree if you want the jewerly to be difficult to reproduce you should set a higher dc such as 20 or 25.

The cost could really be anything, is this jewelry going to be dipped in mithral and encrusted with rubies?

To set lower bound I'd give a value to your raw ingredients, the remorhaz scales.

Unfortunately nothing is listed for that, but you can look through the special materials to get an estimate http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/special-materials/

But these descriptions​ are all over the place and not everything lists a nice gp/lb. Is it as valuable as griffons mane at 50gp/lb or shark skin 5gp/lb?

Maybe most similar in CR to bulette. Using leather bulette armor 20 lbs for 50gp a third is raw material, so about 16gp or 17 per pound. If your pendant is 1oz the lowest cost would be 3gp total, using about 1gp worth of raw materials. A heavy 1/lb medallion would be 48gp.

Holding a rod is thematic but also a bit painful.

Dark Blue Rhomboid (Ioun Stone) is 10k and grants alertness, not the best feat but a feat and it is slotless.

Shields of arrow deflection, a better feat, is +2 so 9000 for a +1 arrow deflection shield or 6000gp for the feat. It require holding a shield.

6000 is also the difference between a +1 weapon and a +1 keen weapon, improved critical being one of the best feats in the game.

I'd price it similar, 6000 for a rod, 10k slotless item, or even 4k and 8k if you think the feat is under powered.