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But overrun is not straight line... if you use it with a charge then yes MOST times it will be straight line (you can have feats to turn while charging). If you use Overrun with a move there is no restrictions saying you cant zig zag around allies or obstacles to reach your target.
I already did multiple times... in previous posts. I Apologize. It's just frustrating having the same answer asked over and over. Bulette Leap is a clear example of a feat that allows you to hit multiple overrun targets multiple times. Without trample you can only do damage to them either with an AoO when you knock them prone or with the combat feat trample when you knock them prone. (combat feat trample is different than the monster ability)
VoodistMonk, say I concede and accept that trample hits all targets it runs over top of... It does not say it is a straight line so they could zig zag around anything they can't hit. It also doesn't say anything about enemies so it would also hit allies. And since it has absolutely nothing to do with overrun than any feat that affects overrun would have no effect on Trample in any way.
-- can you show me an example of a situation where *each* target could potentially take trampling damage more than once per round (hence the need for this restriction), when there is only ever one target each round? I already did multiple times... in previous posts. But as Cavall Pointed out the main one is bulette leap but was introduced 7 years after trample was written. There are other instances that I have heard of that have placeholders/restrictions that only applied after the ability was written. Some things that didn't have restrictions needed them later which resulted in FAQs. Maybe at the time they had some feat idea in mind that never made it printing... who knows.
And they compare magus spell combat to 2 weapon fighting when it's nothing like two weapon fighting and the only thing in common with twf is taking a -2 to hit. Spell combat is like two weapon fighting... your using your main hand to attack normally like TWF.. then your offhand you attack as well but your allowed to use a spell instead of a weapon. the offhand weapon is a spell instead of a physical weapon. Also note that the use of "much like" is a loser comparison than "Just Like". AwesomenessDog... your question as to the reason I think it's a single is answered above. Again another example of people not actually reading the topic before posting. As for the breath weapon I agree it is multi-target. That is not the topic. Breath weapon is specifically a cone, line or cloud effect and each one of those clarely hits multiple targets. I wont repeat myself a 5th time why Trample is single target. Read the previous posts please.
No, the highlighted section is not true. Trample is not a modified overrun. If trample is not a modified overrun why would they ever compare it to overrun? If they are not the same then don't compare it. They could have removed the line that compares it to overrun entirely by saying "Trample allows you to walk over top any creature in your path causing stomp damage to any targets you hit"... but they didn't. They chose to compare Trample to a single target standard action combat maneuver then said you don't have to make a combat maneuver check. You can't assume that plural words in a sentence mean the same thing as the words "You can hit multiple targets" when you're basing an ability on a clearly single target "Just like" comparison. Since overrun requires you to take a standard as part of a move or charge in order to use it, it can only ever be realistically used in conjunction with a move action since a charge is always a full-round or standard action. I agree completely there is an issue there that overrun requires movement to work and as a full round action you do not have movement. Overrun can be used on a charge since you still have your movement. Now maybe you didn't know but there is a FAQ Here that addresses this specific issue. It states you have double your movement as part of trample's full round action. humm I guess that is the same distance as a charge. There are a lot of instances where a modified ability or action is more complicated requiring more time to complete. So they increased the standard action to a full round then said instead of a move action you just naturally can move double your base as part of the full round action. I would agree that you can't use trample with a charge to gain charging bonuses. (I saw some posts that argue you can)
I agree with you that is a lot of damage and easier to do. But you're comparing apples to oranges. You're comparing a multi feat buffed attack that probably requires a high level animal, to a single monster ability that has no feats and can be lvl 1(or one feat to avoid AoO from your targets) So you are just enforcing the fact that if trample hits multiple targets then it is overpowered based on the fact that it is much much easier to get with no feats required. For balance it should be single target. You saying "the key seems to be..." that last line, I would not agree with. That is just a restricting line they added in the event you ever happened to hit someone or multiple people more than once during a trample. It does not give you the permission to hit multiple people but only what happens if you do.
Then I read greater overrun and improved overrun, neither of which say it increases the amount. Exactly my point! Trample is a modified overrun that does not say it increases the amount. It simple says that if you ever step on a target more than once (which can also be done with normal overrun and feats) you don't do additional damage.
Tail sweep does not say anywhere that it is "just like" tail slap. Those are your words comparing two unrelated attacks. Look up a ranger animal companion. "This ability functions like the druid animal companion, except..." meaning identical to except for what follows. So unless a part of the compared to ability is changed... its exactly the same. Otherwise why compare it anyway.
Did anyone actually read my whole post? A description written in the plural form DOES NOT automatically mean it hits multiple targets. I will say for the forth time. Greater Overrun is written in Plurals
Greater Overrun would hit multiple targets if you assumed that plurals indicate multiple targets. It clearly is not the case. In this case you base the # of targets on the original root overrun maneuver which is one. The bold plurals are clearly referring to both consecutive turns or cases where you overrun multiple targets in one round. Since Trample is a modified overrun combat maneuver it too would take on the characteristics of its base overrun except where altered. The alterations is that CMB does not need to be rolled because it always hits and causes damage. Additionally in place of the AoO that standard overrun always causes a person can choose to reflex save for reduced damage. The line at the end of Trample isn't talking about running over the same target more than once... it clearly states that EACH TARGET of a Trample can only be damaged once per Trample.I will say again since I don't think people are actually reading my posts... #6 You might ask why is that line at the very end of trample there that talks about trampling someone multiple times. The answer is with multiple feats you could potentially hit the same guy multiple times. With normal overrun from my interpretation you could hit the same guy multiple times if you had enough movement on a character that has the feat "Bulette Leap". A character with 30' movement could keep running someone over 3 times but again do no damage. to extend on that i could hit the same target twice then hit a second target. or if I had more movement I could hit the second target 3 times ore more. So even with standard overrun and specific feats I could hit multiple people multiple times. So without that line at the end of trample In the above example I would trample multiple targets multiple times because of my 4+ additional feats but with the last line in trample I would only damage "each target" once even though I ran over them multiple times. The last line is there JUST IN CASE I ran over them multiple times in any situation. It does NOT give you the permission to hit multiple targets only that if it does happen you damage them only once The OP's reading must willfully ignore portions of text to make sense. I could say the same about you and ignoring portions of my original post. I clearly laid out all arguments as to why trample is not multi target without additional feats. You saying it just works is not an argument to convince someone otherwise. Since no one proabably checked out James' post I will Link the full context here
Creatures that have trample attacks are generally pretty big monsters. Trample's better than overrun, because the person being trampled cannot just step out of they way. They either have to decide to try to avoid the trample by making a Reflex save, or they can take the trample and get an attack of opportunity. You aren't automatically knocked prone when your'e trampled, in any case. James does not dismiss that trample is not like overrun but says its better because it always hits. So he is Affirming that Trample is an always hitting Overrun that does not knock someone prone. Please stop saying it just works and explain it out how you can believe it is multiple target without any extra feats? If Trample is multi-target... with only 1 feat "improved overrun" trample hits every smaller creature on the map that you can reach without having any AoO against you until you stop beside someone you didn't hit and you just did guaranteed full damage to every single one. That would be the most overpowered animal companion in pathfinder. everyone should use it.
Voodistmonk. Again your situation appears to be part of the plot line. The plot can do whatever they want and make up any rules they see fit in the campaign. I'm talking about someone's pet that does this every single round to every single target on the field every battle. It's not about the story because its not part of the story. I find it hard to believe that people are ok with it. That is equivalent to lvl 3 or 4 spells cast every single round. How can people actually believe that was intended? Again back to the rules. Trample never says it hits multiple targets. Greater overrun also implies that you are hitting multiple targets. I'm sure there are other examples of a single target action that is described in the plural form but I just didnt go looking. If everyone is so set on a description in plural automatically means multiple targets in a single round then there is a lot of issues with a lot of pathfinder descriptions.
Ferious Thune Picture this... a large sized elephant runs over a small dog. There is only 1 target but you have stepped on that dog for 2 squares of movement. Without that Note someone could argu that its one target but I stepped on him twice with front then back feet. I wouldn't allow it anyway.
And that's what I'm talking about. Based on Resonable deduction your Gorgotaur without extra feats should not have ran through the whole party. Given the use of targets, and the type of creatures that have trample, I believe it absolutely intended to run over an entire party so with that reasoning if I have greater Overrun I can hit as many targets as I want because it says "When you overrun OPPONENTS (in other words "TARGETS")
A scenario is not the same as a hunters pet. And based on your reasoning an enlarged person fighter doing an overrun on a tiny imp should be allowed to hit as many targets as they can? Nope your reasoning is based on real world not actual rules. This is a game not real world. If everything was based on real world... a character riding a huge mammoth would never be able to hit a small or medium sized creature with a scimitar being what? 60 feet in the air?? Real world does not apply to pathfinder
As the topic implies I believe Trample does not hit more than one target (without feats). I know some people in official and unofficial forums say yes it does but please hear me out. My Gm thought it hit multiple targets but it didn't even cross my mind that it did since overrun is single target. I thought it was a given to only hit one. And here I am to clear up the confusion about it. Maybe I am wrong but I can't see it any other way and here is why. #1 Everyone can agree that standard overrun hits one target. I say that Trample IS overrun with some differences. Spoiler:
Spoiler:
My bold key words are on "JUST LIKE" which means exactly like. The rest of the description are the difference from standard overrun... This doesn't mean it is similar to or comparable. It means it works word for word exactly like Overrun except with the difference following. So that means trample can only hit the same amount of targets as overrun which is one. #2 But you say "the whole description is written plural". A plural description does not mean it hits multiple targets without specifically saying "Trample hits multiple targets"(which it does not). Just look at Greater Overrun.
Spoiler:
As you can see greater overrun also talks about multiple targets but we already know overrun is a single target. The reason it talks about multiple targets is either because you hit multiple targets on consecutive turns or it's referring to the feats that allow overrun to hit multiple targets (Charge Through & Bulette charging leap) #3 Now that we have established Trample is an overrun combat maneuver with modifications we can conclude that all feats that affect overrun also affect Trample. Ex: Improved & Greater Overrun, Charge through, Buletter Charging Style, Bulette leap and others. There may be arguments on some of those but that is not the topic of this discussion. #4 A post by James Jacobs, who talks about trample and if it knocks people prone, says...
"Trample's better than overrun, because the person being trampled cannot just step out of they way. They either have to decide to try to avoid the trample by making a Reflex save, or they can take the trample and get an attack of opportunity. You aren't automatically knocked prone when your'e trampled, in any case." That seems pretty clear that the text I bolded says trample is specific to one target #5 Think of the power of trample IF it were multi-target. You could with a large creature potentially hit almost 100 guys in one turn if they were lined up right. Do you really think a single default ability should potentially be able to do over 1000 damage? Remember that typically overrun on a normal character requires at least 3 feats to hit more than one target and at least 4 feats to hit more than 2(and these targets don't take damage either). Should a single unaltered attack be significantly stronger than a fighter with 4 feats?? #6 You might ask why is that line at the very end of trample there that talks about trampling someone multiple times. The answer is with multiple feats you could potentially hit the same guy multiple times. With normal overrun from my interpretation you could hit the same guy multiple times if you had enough movement on a character that has the feat "Bulette Leap". A character with 30' movement could keep running someone over 3 times but again do no damage. Conclusion: Trample is a single target full-round action that always hits. It can be made into a multi-target ability with extensive feat investment. With those feats it becomes a very powerful ability but without them is only slightly better than standard overrun. I realize this goes against what some people believe but if I am right there are a lot of people who are wrong on how this (not so simple) one trick wonder works.
Sorry for the terrible Necro but... where is this supposed Errata? I cant find it. Also the link to the FAQ doesn't seem to work. EDIT: I found a non broken link to the FAQ Here |