Theaitetos's page

Yeah, spells at high ranks have abilities that lower-rank spells just don't get. A 15ft-cone is something 1st- & 2nd-rank spells have, but adding a range to it so it doesn't have to begin at your position is something that comes into play at ranks 5+ – just like Telekinetic Bombardment creates a 30ft line that starts anywhere within its 500ft range.

Another spell to compare it to is Freezing Rain, which is just a 5th-rank spell, also targets Reflex and slows upon fail.

The last comparison is probably the Slow spell itself, that targets 10 creatures of your choice within range at equal rank (6).

Vitrifying Blast's power is hedged by its small area – 15ft cone – and the low damage – it deals 50% of equal-rank Chain Lightning – and that it targets two different saves – you need to fail Reflex and then fail Fortitude saves to be slowed for more than 1 round – and the incapacitation trait on the ongoing save.

The range on where to place the cone is definitely intentional.

However, even with the range I have yet to see someone actually use that spell because other spell options are still stronger (Slow, Freezing Rain, Chain Lightning) and are much easier to target. Finally, the fact that it targets two different saves (Reflex & Fort with incapacitation to boot) makes it a poor choice overall, as enemies with weak Reflex saves usually have strong Fort saves and vice versa.

Another balance issue here is that casters really like their high rank spell slots, so most people won't want to use this spell until higher levels. So this is very strong from around level 9.

I'm not so sure. Isn't it the precasting and the solid +1 to everything that makes Heroism such a good choice even for a high slot? And this is just one level above base Heroism and lasts all day/through every encounter.

I think most divine or primal caster would be happy to prepare/"sustain"¹ an always useful spell on a party member, instead of having to wonder if there's a good chance that another of their prepared/known spells has a great effect. You're unlikely to use it on an animal companion, but a regular party member? Why not. Especially if the caster itself is the Awakened Animal: Primal blasters love the improved chance of going first, while shapeshifter Druids can get into their untamed form quickly. (Heal-font) Clerics only prepare Divine Wrath at level 7 anyway.

And the wand costs the exact same amount as an Eye Slash (Major) that gives a +2 item bonus to Perception.

¹ for spontaneous casters it's also great that the spell lasts until your next daily preparations, so once you've cast it you no longer need to keep it in your repertoire (levelup/retrain) to sustain it permanently.

One thing you might want to point out with the Movanic Glimmer spell: Awakened Animal characters can have this spell cast on them, giving them a daily (wand=permanent) +2 status bonus to Will saves and Perception.

Awakened Mind

Awakening altered your mind. You are no longer an animal, but you can still ask questions of, receive answers from, and use the Diplomacy skill with animals of your kind. By remembering your instincts, you can allow yourself to be affected by spells and other effects as though you were an animal.

This is basically a lesser form of Hidden Mind + a status version of Improved Initiative folded into one, and others can cast it on you – totally worth a wand!

It's not like Tangible Dream psychic is some theoretical build that no one does because they know melee spell attacks are bad. It's a genuinely attractive playstyle for some people, and the nerf is pretty painful.

Yup, I played one in Season of Ghosts (level 1-10) and it was pretty fun!

I've also took the time to read through this thread (felt like a duty at times, being the OP), got quite angry at some of the stuff here, but want to thank Kitusser, Teridax, and Tridus for speaking my mind in a more calm & collected way than I could have. Thank you!

No, that's not enough. Not nearly.

They remastered the Psychic and decided to change how Amps work and then did not adapt current Amps to reflect that change.

This affects 11 psi cantrips (Reaction + Readied) in total that can RAW no longer be Amped. Guidance & Entropic Wheel are just those that are completely affected, the others only when readied, e.g. Amped Warp Step or Amped Message.

When you change something as fundamental as Amps on a Psychic, you better take the time to make sure you adapt the old Amps to the new language. Not doing that is incredibly lazy in my books, and smells like bad errata from 1e times. And I don't think it's OK to just gloss over this negligence with "yeah, well, who cares, just ignore it".

Psi Cantrips and Amps

Instead, you use your Focus Points to boost or modify your psi cantrips by applying amps—specialized thoughtforms that alter the expression of your psychic power. Each of your psi cantrips has a special amp heading. Whenever you cast a psi cantrip, you can amp it by spending 1 Focus Point as a free action. If the next action you take is to cast the psi cantrip, you add the amp effect. You can also gain additional amps through feats, allowing you to substitute a psi cantrip’s normal amp effect for another one. You choose which amp to use, if you choose to use any, each time you cast a psi cantrip. Unless otherwise noted, you can apply only one amp to a given psi cantrip.

Amp is now a free action "spellshape".

This means it can no longer be used with Spellstrike, Act Together, Slip'n'Sizzle, or similar (sub)ordinate actions.

RAW, Amped Guidance no longer works because they failed to change the language on Amped Guidance. RAI it clearly should work, but RAW I don't think it does work with the new way Amp works. There needs to be language added that allows to Amp as a Reaction and then cast Guidance as part of that Reaction, or something similar.

Edit: Same issue with Entropic Wheel. Basically, you can't use Amp with reaction spells with the new language on Amps.

I just want to chime in to say this isn't true at all. 3 slot casters can handle days of 4+ severe+ encounters just fine.

At levels 1 to 4? I totally disagree.

I mean....kind of, but no.

Sure, you can have signature spells that are more convenient to use with counterspelling, but what are the chances that the spell you have as a signature is the spell that the enemy is casting?

Chances are quite good, tbh.

Or, tl;dr:
The spells you worry about encountering as heightened versions, are also the spells you are likely to have as signature spells yourself.

In my example arcane Sorcerer build I had Elemental Annihilation Wave as 3rd-rank signature spell, and Lightning Bolt as 4th-rank signature spell. The former allows me to counter every elemental spell – like Fireball – at a rank of my choice, while the latter allows me to counter Lightning Bolt at a rank of my choice, thus covering almost every significant AoE damage spell before level 9.

Still, I'm worried about enemies casting Haste or Slow or or doing other things with magic that aren't as easily supported within the counterspell system.

These kind of ongoing spells can also be dispelled, where signature spell Dispel Magic comes in a clutch. Countering is preferable for action economy, but dispelling is almost as good.

And spontaneous casters are really SOL if they want to counter.

I think it's the other way round: Prepared casters are SOL, because even if they have the spell prepared, it might not be prepared at a good rank to counterspell, or they might have already used the spell. Wizards with Clever Counterspell less often run into that issue, but they still have more trouble with using a spell at a good rank, especially if it's late in the adventuring day or the enemy spellcaster keeps using the same spell – Drained Bonded Item doesn't help with spells you need for a reaction.

On the other hand, spontaneous casters can make important spells (to counter) their signature spells, giving them the edge in spell-slot use for countering: Choose whether to play it safe by using a spell-slot 1 rank higher than enemy spell, or conserve your resources by using a spell-slot 1 rank lower; there's no reason to use an equal-rank spell-slot at all, for if you succeed at the counteract check then 1 rank lower would have been sufficient, and if you fail the counteract check you would have needed to use a slot 1 rank higher.

So I've played Imperial Sorcerers that are very successful counterspellers; my build tricks:
1) The combo of the Elemental Counter¹ cantrip + signature spell (3rd-rank) Elemental Annihilation Wave (replace Air with Metal & Wood traits) lets you counter pretty much every elemental spell you encounter.
2) Dip into Psychic archetype (always useful!) and grab the Counter Thought feat + signature spell (1st-rank) Fear. Same as with Elemental Counter, but now you can also counter all mental spells.
3) The Imperial bloodlines capstone focus spell Arcane Countermeasure is a cheap "half-counterspell" option against offensive spells and lowering the rank of the enemy spell is absolutely devastating against spells with significant heightened entry (e.g. 6th-rank Slow, 3rd-rank Fear, 7th-rank Haste, …) or the incapacitation trait.
4) Signature spell Shadow Siphon rounds out your toolkit against offensive spells – if you even need it still at this point.
5) Taking the Wellspring Mage archetype allows you to grab Interfering Surge, giving you Counterspell + the ability to trigger wellspring surges in the enemy caster. You'll want to go Ancient Elf here to grab both the Psychic and Wellspring Mage dedication (unless you use Free Archetype).

But yeah, you're right in that making Dispel Magic your 2nd-rank signature spell is awesome for removing unwanted magic, and it benefits from the same edge in spell-slot use for counteract checks to use a slot 1 rank lower (or higher); e.g. if you're not time-pressed it's probably wiser to first try spending 4th-rank slots to dispel a 5th-rank effect and hope for good rolls, rather than spending a 6th-rank slot.

Same thing with non-arcane spontaneous casters that have Cleanse Affliction & similar spells as signature spells.

¹ Elemental Counter is a bit weird, as that it can counter a spell even after it has been cast: It triggers whenever someone has to make a save against the elemental spell or has a spell attack roll made against it. This means that ongoing spells, e.g. Freezing Rain, can be countered each time the enemy caster sustains that spell. This form of countering is also independent of seeing the spellcasting manifestations.

I certainly wouldn't rule that this feat makes counterspell & recognize spell not work, because nothing in this feat says that it does that. You can imply it if you read into the description enough, but I don't share that interpretation.

As the others in this old thread have said, the text of Conceal Spell pretty clearly prevents Recognize Spell & Counterspell from working, because Conceal Spell hides spellcasting & manifestations, which are necessary to have Recognize Spell & Counterspell work.

Though since the spell itself isn't hidden, you still have a few "counter magic" options left, like Spell Riposte, Shadow Siphon, Elemental Counter, and any other that don't require you to perceive the act of spellcasting.

I think we're long past the OP's original question…

This is phantasmal calamity, visions of danger, phantasmagoria and one or two others. Calamity especially is the usual 2 action, 500ft range, 30ft burst, +2d6 per rank.

No, these are not Will-save Fireballs.

If you read my entire post, you'll see that my suggestion on how to make RK more attractive was to introduce Fort- & Will-save AoE spells that compete with the damage-output of comparable Reflex-save spells, especially at lower levels:

If Reflex-damage spells deal ~25% more damage than comparable Fort- & Will-damage spells, then how much does it matter that a Reflex-damage spell is not hitting the lowest save?

Are there even good Fort- & Will-damage spells (AoE's) at all, especially at lower levels?

I also mentioned Phantasmagoria myself, noting that Fort- & Will-based AoE damage spells only get better at higher ranks, but are still lagging behind:

Only very late at rank 8 & 9, do we even have Fort- & Will-damage spells that finally get better targeting & damage than before (Desiccate, Phantasmagoria), but they are still slightly lacking in damage compared to their Reflex-spell counterparts.

For example, what good non-Reflex AoE damage spell options does an arcane caster with 3rd-rank spells even have?

For since there are no such spells currently that compete – with Fireball around rank 3, Chain Lightning around rank 6, or Eclipse Burst around rank 7 – there is little reason to choose a Fort- or Will-damage spell over the stronger Reflex-damage spells.

Phantasmal Calamity could compete with Fireball, if its base rank were 3, i.e. "de-heightened" similar to the Explosive Barrage example that I gave. But at rank 6 it's simply no longer competitive with equal-rank Reflex-damage spells: same-rank Chain Lightning deals a freaking 35% more damage AND has better targeting.

While Unicore is certainly right on the math, I agree with Deriven that RK plays no crucial role in this regard:

First, you're often very likely to correctly guess their weakest save, or at least what's the enemy's highest save to avoid; in fact, you're often even able to correctly guess their immunities/resistances, e.g. "it looks undead" or "it looks like a fire creature".

And second, you are still limited in what spells you have available to "do your thing", depending on tradition & preparation and what you desire to do. For if you want to deal lots of damage, you will most likely use one of the high damage Reflex spells like Chain Lightning, Frigid Flurry, or Eclipse Burst – the latter two deal ~30% more damage than other spells at that level.
[Note: I only consider AoE/multi-target spells as damage-spells in this post.]

The idea of using RK to find out high/low saves matters a bit more if you're a divine/occult caster, since you don't have the high-damage Reflex spells (until Eclipse Burst) and therefore have to decide whether you're using a Will- or Fort-save spell. Though in the end you're likely still stuck with a Fort-save spell for damage (e.g. Divine Wrath) because good Will-save damage spells are too rare (at least AoE's).

Only very late at rank 8 & 9, do we even have Fort- & Will-damage spells that finally get better targeting & damage than before (Desiccate, Phantasmagoria), but they are still slightly lacking in damage compared to their Reflex-spell counterparts.

For example, what good non-Reflex AoE damage spell options does an arcane caster with 3rd-rank spells even have?

---

At that point I'm tempted to say that the issue might be the spells themselves:

• If Reflex-damage spells deal ~25% more damage than comparable Fort- & Will-damage spells, then how much does it matter that a Reflex-damage spell is not hitting the lowest save?
  
• Are there even good Fort- & Will-damage spells (AoE's) at all, especially at lower levels?
  
• Divine Wrath is great because of a great rider & targeting specs (no friendly fire) and being good damage for the divine tradition, but its damage is low compared even to a baseline Fireball (21% less).
  
• Other "good" Fort- & Will-damage spells often come with awkward targeting and/or being damage-over-time (e.g. Blister, Awaken Entropy, Ancestral Winds).
  
• And for the few Fort- & Will-damage spells, are they even on the tradition list where they compete with the high damage Reflex spells?
  

I suspect Deriven's table & others would use RK more often if there were good Fort- & Will-based alternatives, like a Fort-based Chain Lightning and a Will-based Eclipse Burst option, right?

---

Though here you run into another design decision: Different traditions are meant to have different strengths & weaknesses. The "damage" traditions are arcane & primal, so the high-damage spell options are (mostly) restricted to those traditions. The divine & occult traditions do not have (m)any Reflex-based spell options.

This leaves little room for change (even homebrew) that respects those design decisions. The only option I see is to introduce new Fort- & Will-damage spells to the arcane tradition that deal good damage; and the same for the primal tradition, though restricted to some of the new Fort-save spells.

For example, I think Explosive Barrage is such an option, but the spell should be base rank 3, not 6 (just de-heighten the damage), and the number of additional bursts should be determined by spell rank.

And why isn't there a "Will-based Fireball" that tries to rip everybody's mind out or something? Exact same as Fireball, just Will save + mental damage? Or reduce the damage slightly but make it friendly-fire proof or the like. Not every Will-save spell needs to be single target or frighten or confuse. Just make people's heads explode for once!

----

tl;dr
Better Fort- & Will-based AoE spells that compete with Reflex-based AoE spells on damage output would invite (arcane & primal) casters to utilize RK to squeeze more damage juice out by trying to aim for the lowest save, e.g. a "rank 3-Explosive Barrage" or "mental Fireball".

Using the elf ancestry feats of Ancestral Longevity, Expert Longevity, and Universal Longevity in conjunction with an Int-based class and the loremaster archetype Quick Study feat allows the character to essentially "prepare" additional fields of knowledge they want to make RL checks about at the start of each day (and even switch one of them at a moment's notice).

There are a few other methods as well:

But one thing that I used to enjoy pre PF2 was the wizards niche as the Know it All character. The Hemione Granger of spell casters.

You can do that with the Imperial Sorcerer as well nowadays: Tap into Blood allows the Sorcerer to use Arcana instead of the specific lore skill you want to Recall Knowledge about; the reduced DC from a specific lore evens out the difference in INT.

You can also combine Arcana with your best RK skill via Cognitive Crossover, if you want to make that investment.

I just came across this great video explaining the issues of low-level play in Pathfinder 2e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNaUD53ZXsM.

Absolutely worth a watch!

Likewise, Entangling Flora causes a lot of plants and fungi to quickly grow - is that creation magic? I would rate that more like magic that creates something than a False Image that literally uses the word "create", to generate an illusion.

I do recommend to look at the original (premaster) schools, at least in name, to get a better idea of what is most likely meant.

Envy (Abjuration): The art of suppressing magic other than your own.
Prohibited Schools: evocation, necromancy.

Gluttony (Necromancy): Magic that manipulates the physical body to provide for an unending hunger for life.
Prohibited Schools: abjuration, enchantment.

Greed (Transmutation): Magically transforming things into objects of greater value or utility, and enhancing the physical self.
Prohibited Schools: enchantment, illusion.

Lust (Enchantment): Magically controlling and dominating other creatures to satisfy your desires, and manipulating others’ minds, emotions, and wills.
Prohibited Schools: necromancy, transmutation.

Pride (Illusion): Perfecting your own appearance and domain through trickery and illusions.
Prohibited Schools: conjuration, transmutation.

Sloth (Conjuration): Calling agents and minions to perform your deeds for you, or creating what you need as you need it.
Prohibited Schools: evocation, illusion.

Wrath (Evocation): Mastery of the raw destructive power of magic, and channeling those destructive forces.
Prohibited Schools: abjuration, conjuration.

The Wrath (Evocation) anathema – cannot use your magic to protect or create – is originally against the schools of Abjuration & Conjuration. This means that Transmutation is not meant to be a part of the anathema, leaving merely changing already-existing things, like Entangling Flora, a-ok.

Pride & Lust have Transmutation as an opposed school, and their anathema now lists "changing/meddling with physical things". Thus creating Aqueous Orbs or Walls of Stone would be fine here, but making existent Flora grow would not.

Yes, exactly.

Though Tremorsense isn't really benefiting from mythic proficiency; there are also other ways to obtain special senses, e.g. a Saurian Spike.

Sustained spells are pretty good options, as they continue to benefit from the mythic proficiency, like the Floating Flame you mentioned, but also Illusory Creature (2 x 8d4 mental damage per Sustain) or Spiritual Armament (4d8 sanctified spirit damage per Sustain), as both use mythic attack rolls for the duration.

Yes, you can take spells from any tradition.

So it's a good opportunity to "steal" some good spells from the other lists, and since it's auto-heightened it's also a good opportunity to take incapacitation spells – like Calm, Sleep, Paralyze, … – or spells with counteract checks (at mythic proficiency!) – like Dispel Magic, Cleanse Affliction, Clear Mind, ….

p.s.: RAW this feat would even allow you to take Focus spells like Earth's Bile, Sky Laughs at Waves, Trickster's Mirror, Untamed Shift, …

Something I can suggest looking at are the "Sin Counterspell" entries found in the Revenge of the Runelords adventure path.

[MINOR SPOILERS, I guess:]

Pride

Trigger A creature within 30 feet casts a spell that creates or changes physical things

Envy

Trigger A creature within 30 feet casts a spell with the air, earth, fire, metal, water, wood, or void trait that deals damage

Since Pride (Illusion) and Wrath (Evocation) share an opposite school with one another, Sloth (Conjuration), you can take the "creates physical things" right there – the "changes" part refers to the Transmutation (Greed) school.

With the initial questions answered, I too feel free to share a recommendation:

Has your group tried the Proficiency without Level variant rule yet?

It's an easy fix to make dangerous encounters without having to rely on PL+X creatures all the time. This variant rule basically "buffs" lower-level creatures and "debuffs" higher-level creatures.

For example, if a 6th-level party of four tries to enter a crypt guarded by 9 Skeletal Champions (CR2), they face an extreme encounter, not just because of the skeletons' resistances and reactions. This might wipe the party or force them to retreat. Thinning their numbers quickly will become a necessity and only casters can really do that – even the Kineticist might be useless here, depending on their elements – as a single cast of Eagle's Cry can absolutely devastate these skeletons: 1-2 skeletons will crit fail = instantly destroyed; and if you roll well on the damage, 4 more will be destroyed even on rolling a failure. Only half of them will remain at all, and in really bad shape + Frightened 1 to boot, turning a formerly extreme encounter into a moderate one.

p.s.: Proficiency without Level also makes summon spells useful in combat!

OP said he wanted help with spellcasters, but half the people in here tell OP to play something else instead.

This is really bad behavior, the kind of obnoxious stuff you see so much on Reddit. No matter how well-meaning the intentions, please don't do that.

If OP asks about non-caster options, then feel free to recommend your Maguses, suggest your Kineticists, and advertise your Thaumaturges.

But as long as OP asks for things like this – "So I hope maybe the wiser Pathfinders here can point out some practical advice to play spell casters in these kind of adventuring days, that I am missing." – it's best to keep it to such advice on spellcasters.

My advice remains:
- Ask the GM for two free retrainings at level 6 and 10/11; not character-rebuilts, just retraining a few feat & spell choices.
- Optimize as much as you can without compromising your core character idea, e.g. pick a STR/INT flaw race (Sprite, Yaoguai, Gnome, …).
- Take the Aiuvarin heritage to get the Elf Atavism ancestry feat for Ancient Elf: a free multiclass dedication (Psychic or Oracle recommended) helps a lot, especially with the Psychic's additional focus point.
- Grab a good background – like Demon Hunted, Amnesiac, Discarded Duplicate, or Shielded Fortune – as they provide some additional defenses over ordinary backgrounds.
- Start level 1 with the Wellspring Mage archetype on a Sorcerer chassis (Flames Oracle is also possible, but more difficult to master). Assuming 5 encounters that day, this would change your number of 1st-rank spell-slots from 3 [normal Sorcerer] to 6 [assuming 1 wellspring surge], improving how you handle long days.
- Retrain out of Wellspring Magic at level 6, which is nothing unusual, unless you like it ofc. At that level you get a 2nd focus spell and focus point from your Sorcerer class (or Oracle class).
- At level 10, feel free to change from Psychic archetype to Oracle: You no longer need that additional focus point so desperately, but Oracle now offers better goodies like Foretell Harm.
- If your table allows rare feats (technically Wellspring Mage is rare too, but so is the Exemplar archetype which is allowed everywhere), and you're looking to fill your 3rd action: invest heavily into Intimidation, get the Reincarnated Ridiculer ancestry feat and the Golden League Xun's Menacing Prowess; now you have a spammable 1-action Fear AoE with an incredibly high success rate (your Intimidation modifier can easily be 5+ higher than your spell modifier).
- If you're fine with other things than blasting, then there are a few great spells out there that can severely debuff enemies without huge investments: Illusory Object, Laughing Fit, Mind Games, Blister Bomb.
- If you're playing a Draconic Sorcerer, make sure to edit your focus spells to work as outlined in this chart from Draconic Codex (tell your GM!). Great choices are those dragons with an unusual save for their tradition (e.g. Reflex saves on divine or occult), rarely resisted damage types (e.g. sonic on Despair/Wailing), or unusual saves for a damage type (e.g. Despair/Time: sonic/force vs Will).

Out of curiosity, which Sorcerer did you play, OP?

I don't think he played the Sorcerer, but someone else:

Especially after seeing another player trying to play a damage focused sorcerer for a year and seeing his spells do a pittance of damage basically 3 out of 4 times.

Yeah, (non-support) casters are really hard, and they have different challenges at different level brackets. At early levels, you barely have any spells or spell-slots to blast with, so you'll end up really weak. It's much different at higher levels, when you have plenty of spells available, as well as plenty of spell-slots.

Since optimizing depends on the level you're playing, ask your GM if he is fine with you retraining some things for free at, say, levels 6 and 10. If so, then it's possible for you to have builds optimized for the level brackets 1-5, 6-10, and 11+.

Depending on your variant rules (Free Archetype, …?) there are different builds I could recommend.

For example, at low levels you want to get some "front-loaded" stuff into your build to pad out the lack of spell-slots, e.g. taking the Psychic archetype dedication for another focus point, as well as trying to get some sustained spells like Floating Flame: you'll get a ton of damage/effect out of 1 spell-slot.

Here's a build idea for those low levels: https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1333038
Arcane Dragon Wellspring Sorcerer, Yaoguai, Aiuvarin, Ancient Elf → Psychic

• Yaoguai gives you a +1 to a useful stat, e.g. Dexterity, at the expense of Intelligence (dump stat).
• Aiuvarin gives you access to Ancient Elf, netting you a multiclass dedication.
• The Psychic dedication gives you a 2nd focus point right at level 1, and you can choose which cantrip to get – the Draconic bloodline has a very good starting focus spell, so the specific Conscious Mind + cantrip choice matters little.
• Wellspring Mage makes you lose a spell-slot of each rank, but you have a good chance of getting one back at the beginning of combat – an excellent choice for using a hero point, as casters are often stuck with remaining hero points from rolling so few attack rolls & skill checks.
• The early focus on Stealth should give you a headstart in initiative – if you use Gradual Ability Boost, you'll have Rogue-like DEX at level 2 to supplement that!

Your party has 2 divine casters, so there would be a lot of overlap with a Bard's occult tradition (or a primal Sorcerer's tradition). An arcane caster is a better choice in this regard, bringing useful blasts and utility to the party.

While the Imperial Sorcerer is always a strong choice, I'd recommend the Draconic Sorcerer with a Time Dragon as the Draconic Benefactor here - and have your focus spells changed accordingly, e.g. Dragon Breath is force damage vs Will save. You might prefer reliable damaging focus spells (like Flurry of Claws & Dragon Breath) over the Imperial ones throughout the campaign. Afaik PFS games do use the changed draconic options, from what they list on their website for Draconic Options, though that table is outdated with the appearance of Draconic Codex two weeks ago.

The arcane spell-list has great Reflex-save AoE blasts, while the divine casters have the stronger Fortitude-save AoE blasts (especially vs the many undead), while a (non-mental) Will-save AoE blast is pretty unique (and amazing vs most swarms); force damage also ignores any resistances/immunities that might come up.

The Time Dragon's bonus spells are also very useful for the entirety of the campaign: Fear, Loose Time's Arrow, Haste, Fly, Banishment. Loose Time's Arrow in particular is one of the strongest 2nd-rank spells in the game, and with a huge party it's even more effective; triggering the Draconic bloodmagic on that spell is a wonderful way of opening up combat and sending your Guardian with that +1 status to AC into the fray, especially as many Guardians have difficulties with movement (heavy armor, potentially carrying fortress shields). To be honest, it's stronger than Haste here.

A Time Dragon tied to ancient Azlant (instead of an Imperial bloodline) is also very thematic.

p.s.: I would recommend the Ancient Elf heritage and grabbing the Psychic dedication. The archetype is much easier than the class, so there should be no problem, you basically just get a focus point (+ focus spell), which helps a lot with few spell-slots early game. The Unbound Step's Warp Step is a good choice here, as you don't really want a strong focus spell (you have already strong Sorcerer focus spells) but having the 1-action double-stride option available is your "get out of bad situations"-card and is also flavorful for a Time Sorcerer since it's basically just the Time Jump spell (especially once it heightens to 4th rank).

If you're just looking for a mount, Sprites can get a Corgi Familiar to ride upon, though tiny creatures are a notoriously bad choice for a melee class.

It seems the last line "Any additional effects added by a

spellshape action are part of the spell’s effect, not of the
spellshape action itself." could also be used to stop this from happening. If one were to rule that blood magic was an additional effect of that particular spellshape it wouldn't take effect unless a spell was cast with it.

No, because that only refers to the effects of the spellshape itself, which OP doesn't care about ("the extending effect").

But bloodmagic is something else entirely, a class feature that triggers upon any bloodline spell being cast, and Extend Bloodmagic is such a spell - just like a spellshape with the manipulate trait would trigger a Reactive Strike regardless of any spell being cast afterwards.

A few recommendations for things you can try - though careful, they are more about increasing system mastery:

There's a fire-and-wood kineticist who can join us every other game who helps a lot, but we need to plan for his absence.

Ask the GM if he can bot the character, doing nothing but cast Timber Sentinel or Fresh Produce every turn, and spend remaining actions on moving or raising their shield.

Human Bard

Consider building a similar character for him, but instead of a Bard, go with a Trickster Animist - as described in this video by ThrabenU Gaming. This seems to fit what the player wants to play, but is better at it.

Elf Fighter, specced for archery.

Consider building a similar character for him, but instead of Elf, go with a (Vegetation) Yaoguai + Aiuvarin, switch to Composite Longbow, and take the Morphic Strike ancestry feat to get the Root reach unarmed attack: Now he doesn't have to run away, but can instead Reactive Strike anyone coming into melee with him in the first place. He can also just Step back and/or Trip the enemy (his body's reach is now 10ft), shoot/strike the prone enemy and wait for the enemy to trigger Reactive Strike again by closing back up (or standing up). That's taking kiting to the next level and stops wasting the Fighter's powerful reaction.

He should also change to a stronger background; I recommend either Discarded Duplicate/Shielded Fortune for the additional health (CON boost/Toughness) or Student of Archery to get the Phalanx Piercer advanced bow, which would solve his issues with piercing-resistant enemies.

As a Yaoguai+Aiuvarin he can keep his entire Elven appearance and Elf feats, gets +2hp and loses just -5ft of movement that aren't useful for an archer anyway.

Centaur Ranger, also specced for archery, Precision style.

That player might prefer a mounted archer over a centaur. Ask them if they consider changing to such a setup, like Beastmaster to get an animal companion while remaining a precision ranger. Won't do much at lower levels, but once the animal companion gets their 1 action per turn, the free mobility is awesome. A Sprite could do it with their Corgi familiar.

Me, Draconic (Arcane) Sorcerer. The usual assortment of blast spells with some setups like Fear and crowd control like Entangling Flora.

Consider asking your GM to be lenient with the sustain→fatigue rules out of combat, so you can precast Illusory Creature and have it ready at all times before combat begins. But be careful, that illusion dies to the first hit, so it's more useful in combination with the Kineticist's Timber Sentinel!

Also the Oracle dedication might be something for you, and then ask the GM for a slightly higher-level healing item, e.g. scrolls/wands of Heal, a homebrewed-scaling Staff of Healing, or a personal staff with the Heal spell. And if you still have a hand free, wield a Scorpion Whip, as it's light bulk and makes you a viable flanking partner due to reach - the fighter or Bard might want to stay near you to use that sweet offguard bonus.

So what spellshapes are would be useful to apply to extend blood magic? Well, there's only one I can think of. Melodious spell. As part of using the spellshape, melodious spell allows us to attempt a demoralize check.

I love Melodious Spell for that effect!

Side note: I recommend getting Pitch-Perfect Projection from the Dandy archetype to get that free "Reach Spell" on Demoralize from Spellshape Mastery. You can even use that spellshape on the Melodious Spell spellshape itself, because Melodious Spell is "an action that creates an auditory effect with a range" (Demoralize, 30ft range), effectively chaining 3 spellshape actions into one thing!

This might be mega-disintegrate if you can cast some powerful spells with it.

Disintegrate is an imperial bloodline spell...

Zoken44 wrote:

I would want an Archmage to be able to do things outside of their tradition's normal wheel house.

Well why don't we pull on that thread, shall we?

How might your wizard break with tradition or otherwise expand their abilities beyond those normally expected of wizards in order to claim the title of archmage?

Easy. My Imperial Sorcerer had Heal as his 1st-rank arcane signature spell and the daily ability to prepare one 1st-/2nd-rank spell regardless of tradition as another signature spell, e.g. Cleanse Affliction, Harm, or Silence.

Fey Influence (Unicorn), Elf + Otherworldly Acumen (+ Share Thoughts, Wildborn Magic, Brightness Seeker), Arcane Evolution + Ancestral Mage, wand of Recall Legacy.

You'll probably have to go mythic to get an "archmage feeling" on a character: Avenging Runelord for a specialist archmage, or Wildspell for a generalist archmage.

A very strict definition would be: Archmage = any person who can cast at least 2 arcane/occult spells of 10th rank per day from their own powers.

Otherwise you can lessen the definitional requirements to a specialized description, e.g. an archmage of abjuration = capable of counteracting almost all magic they encounter.

You put the URL you weren't supposed to share, IN the screenshot you shared :(

OH CRAP! I hadn't noticed.

I cut the link out from the text and made a screenshot just to avoid that... >.<

But I hope it's moot now, for Starbuilder has now officially released in the latest version of Pathbuilder:

https://pathbuilder2e.com/app.html?v=101b

:D

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Admittedly, part of this came about because I was looking at Psi Burst and noticed how it doesn't mention if the DC for the reflex save is based on Class or Spell.

Yeah, that is a bit of a problem.

The ability doesn't specify.

Psychic does have proficiency ratings in both Class DC and Spell DC.

They don't. Psychics as a premaster class do not have any proficiency in Class DC. They only have Spell DC proficiency. Thus the Psychic's abilities never have to clarify which DC to use because there is only one proficiency.

--ninja'd by Errenor--

It's done, apart from a few issues (like Google Drive saving). Patreons can already use it - the image I posted is a screenshot I made using Starbuilder.

News from Redrazors:

Hello,

I've pretty much completed Starbuilder 2e, with the exception of Custom Packs and GM Mode stuff, which will have to wait for a while.

[...]

Please don't share the link just now, primarily because of the above issue. I'll be releasing it fully with the Draconic Codex release next week (which is my next job).

I'm (as usual) running a month or two behind, so it won't be coming to IOS or Android until early next year.

As ever, thank you for your continued support,

Dave

For everyone who's not a patron, here's what it looks like:

https://imgur.com/eNiUhi4

They need to rework the crap mysteries like Ancestors, Battle, Blight, Bones, and Life. Horrific curses, utterly useless focus & domain spells, and garbage bonus spells render these mysteries unplayable.

The new Avenging Runelord mythic destiny has all its spells based on Charisma, because they're innate spells. This makes this destiny unusable for INT- & WIS-based classes, like Runelord Wizards or Clerics of Lissala. (see here)

Please add a sentence that allows a character to choose INT/WIS/CHA as spellcasting ability modifier for the spells gained from this mythic destiny.

The new mythic content from the Revenge of the Runelords adventure path - Player's Guide and Lord of the Trinity Star - can be found on Demiplane:

Mythic Callings

• Doomsayer's Calling
  
• Dreamer's Calling
  
• Runelord's Calling
  
• Saga's Calling
  

Mythic Destinies

• Avenging Runelord
  
• Heroic Scion
  
• Timewracked
  
• Warshard Warrior
  

First thoughts:

Both the new callings & destinies are cool & thematic to that adventure path.

The mythic callings suffer a bit from many mythic feats not being updated to work with them, i.e. many mythic feats still have the old callings as prerequisite, thus cannot be taken with the new callings.

The mythic destinies are more powerful/useful than the old mythic destinies and more broadly applicable than just to few classes. I bet a lot of people will like them and want to play with those more "mythic-feely" destinies.

Though I hope there's a bit of an errata coming along to fix the issue with the calling prerequisites as well as an errata to the Avenging Runelord mythic destiny:

When taking the Avenging Runelord dedication feat, a character should be allowed to choose which ability score to use for the spells gained from this destiny. Currently these spells are all innate spells, which means they're all exclusively based on Charisma. This makes this destiny a bad choice for Runelord Wizards (!!!) or any other non-CHA based character. Sorcerers, Oracles, Bards, and Thaumaturges can make much better use of this destiny than INT- or WIS-classes, like Runelord Wizards or Clerics of Lissala, which feels wrong.

Tiny Sprites can jump as high as gargantuan Titans.

I think that the increasing character complexity is a defining 2e game feature, as it rewards players for mastering the system , especially now that character building mastery is much less of a thing than back in 1e.

If you're playing with PWL you also have the option of homebrewing things along the game design idea. So you can let players advance in level and give them the new things without improving the damage/heal & HP scale. This is often very easy to do with spells that have a H+1 entry, e.g. a 1st- or 2nd-rank Fireball for 2d6 / 4d6 damage respectively won't break anything, yet broaden the capabilities of your casters (& Kineticists). On martials you can withhold higher level runes. You'll have to be a bit careful with buffs/debuffs and multi-target options (e.g. Desiccate¹), but they work as well with de-heightening - it's mostly utility & "wall of text"-spells that need actual restriction. Slam Down & Synesthesia are strong options when playing at "damage level 5" for example, but they're not game-breaking and thus expand your character's options rather than power.

¹ I recommend de-heightening d10+ damage spells by reducing the number of dice by 1 and the die size by ½ per spell rank, so a 5th-rank Desiccate (H-3) would go from 10d10 to 7d7.

You can get the Fey Sorcerer's advanced bloodline spell via the Glamour fey ancestry feat.

Acrobat/Celebrity/Dandy/Gladiator would have an awesome feat in Costume Change which allows you to remove your enemy's armor:

You can remove any armor as a 3-action Interact activity.

:D

PF2E, every spell - unless Subtle is used or the spell says otherwise in its entry - gives off some sort of visual and/or sound-based display, per Player Core. IE, if someone casts a spell, everyone around knows a spell is cast.

Now, that visual display can be flavored by the caster however they see fit. If a cleric of Desna casts Bless, maybe a field of butterflies comes down and fills the area of the spell to guide the cleric's allies; and maybe Fear cast by a worshipper of Zon-Kuthon might make the targets see elements of body horror happening to themselves in their mind.

But with every spell, the exact flavoring is endless. However, in universe, that flavoring is part of the spell casting.

That's exactly where you're wrong. You are confusing visual/sensory effects of a spell with the act of spellcasting. In the Pf2e rules only the casting of a spell has obvious manifestations & effects, but the spell itself does not have any of those unless it's part of the spell description or the spell effect creates them (e.g. fireball, entangling flora).

Neither Fear nor Bless have any sensory effects and are completely imperceptible, unless you have a way to sense magic (e.g. Detect Magic, Read Aura, Magic Sense, ...). The Fear and Bless spells only have sensory perceptible manifestations on/around the caster during the act of spellcasting.

The Subtle trait only removes those manifestations during the act of spellcasting. It has no effect on the sensory manifestations of the spell effect itself: a fireball still has a flaming explosion, force barrage still shoots a magical shard at an enemy, a mist spell still obscures everything in fog.

The key thing here, IMO, is that when you, an ally, or an enemy Casts a Spell in a fight, or even in a social encounter, everyone *knows* that you have done so. It is clear and obvious, so with the Control example, the people in the battle would see:

a) A spell is cast;
b) Nothing seems to happen - no explosions, no walls just appearing, no one getting sick, or becoming scared, no wounds healing, etc.
c) A moment later, one of their allies just stabs another ally.

Again, your "nothing seems to happen" is super metagamy: what about all the other things that happened during this combat round?

Now, the Subtle Metamagic hides all of this. If you cast a spell with Subtle, then there are no signs, and in that case, no someone should not suspect magic was being used, unless they had some sort of special sense that let them detect it, and those seem to be very rare. That's the benefit of Subtle, to hide casting, but at an action cost.

I don't believe you. Because the very scenario you described happens with or without Subtle spell:

the people in the battle would see:
A spellcaster doing something odd that you don't know what it was.
Nothing seems to happen - no explosions, no walls just appearing, no one getting sick, or becoming scared, no wounds healing, etc.
A moment later, one of their allies just stabs another ally.

Subtle doesn't change your scenario. When your ally suddenly attacks another ally, then you would still suspect mental magic, even if you didn't see that spellcaster cast a spell.

They might not know the specific spell, and they might not know how it works, but the sequence of: person casts spell, nothing seems to happen, then an ally attacks another ally for no reason would strongly indicate mental control was being used.

Can you expand on the part "nothing seems to happen", because a lot of stuff happens in a combat round and all of that could have been influenced by the unknown spell, e.g. all attacks are influenced by Bless, Benediction, Bane, Malediction, Heroism, Protection, Calm, ... .

Unless an ally behaves obviously weird, there is no indication that they're under mental control. Otherwise, are you having people roll Sense Motive when they're fleeing from a non-magical effect to check if magic is involved?

For example: Enemy spellcaster casts an unknown spell, then another enemy yells some orders (End it!), and three of your allies start running away. Would you suspect that the spellcaster used a Fear spell?

Or: Enemy spellcaster casts an unknown spell, then suddenly another creature appears and stabs you in the back (Rogue ending his Invisibility). Would you suspect that the spellcaster summoned a creature or illusion? Would you have them spend an action for Perception to check whether it's an illusion?

Because I get the feeling that people do a lot of metagaming here when it comes to spellcasting.

Similarly, I do not think that Subtle spell makes a difference to those people, because they'd just argue that obviously suspicious behavior from their ally makes them think mental magic is involved, regardless of not having seen a spell being cast previously. They'll probably say something like "They might not know the specific spell, and they might not know how it works, but the sequence of: spellcaster seemingly does nothing for a round, nothing seems to happen, then an ally runs away for no reason would strongly indicate mental magic was being used."

Charm is subtle, however. Book art depicts all non-subtle, non-illusion spells as having a clear effect. Are you suggesting that you could cast daze at someone, and no one would connect it? Or Fear? Charitable Urge doesn't have any such text suggesting the target is unaware of what you've done.

At first you were simply wrong, but instead of accepting that you made a mistake and correcting yourself, you choose to instead dig yourself in on that mistake and start going with such obvious and nonsensical falsehoods?

I guess in your homebrew rules there's no need for Detect Magic, Magic Sense, or anything of that sort: everyone is always able to simply notice all spell effects right upon seeing them - whether it's a shapeshifted Druid, a target of Inveigle, or the victim of a Possession! \o/

But in the Pathfinder 2e rules it's clear: unless a spell has obvious effects (e.g. Fireball) or you identify the spell (e.g. quick recognition), you will simply have no idea what that spellcaster did. There's no aura of golden light radiating from the caster of Bless, nor some purple shroud around the victims of a Fear spell. Was that spell just now Bless, Bane, Benediction, Malediction, Fear, Wave of Despair, ...? You don't know. All you realize is that your team is suddenly struggling more at fighting the enemy team.

Is it in the rules to speak with the Controlled enemy (whether a free action or even have to spend 1 action to talk) and say something like "This one is the traitor in our ranks!" as it charges its ally to cause further chaos.

It depends a bit on the controlling effect. If the controlling effect only gives you control of a set number of actions, then you cannot use free actions like that - though you can spend a normal action to speak of course.

However, you're super lucky that You're Mine gives you control for 1 round, for this means you can also use the enemy's free actions and even reactions!

And yes, you can pass them drugs and have them drink them.
If it's an enemy with weapons, toss them away. Monsters usually have all statistics integrated into their statblocks, but depending on how your table runs things you could debuff an enemy's unarmed attacks by casting a 1st-rank Runic Body on them ("All its unarmed attacks become +1 striking unarmed attacks"), which should weaken their attacks significantly.

Delaying the controlled enemy's turn is possible but doesn't make much sense (they immediately get their Will save and could then potentially return to initiative), but taking a Reactive Strike against another enemy is super fun!

If it's an enemy spellcaster (occult or divine), hand them a scroll of Silence (2nd rank) and have them cast it on themselves - as the spell cannot be dismissed!

The Total Package wrote:

Is it in the rules to speak with the Controlled enemy (whether a free action or even have to spend 1 action to talk) and say something like "This one is the traitor in our ranks!" as it charges its ally to cause further chaos.

Again, your effect is not subtle, and mind control is a known thing. As a DM, that's the start of the iceberg of reasons this wouldn't work.

You're completely wrong here. This is not what the Subtle trait does.

The Subtle trait merely hides all of your spell's incantations and manifestations, which basically means two things:
1) casting a subtle spell does not break stealth,
2) this spell cannot be identified by others.

Spells without the Subtle trait can potentially be identified, but this requires that person to spend actions to do so. Primarily, enemies would need to have the Recognize Spell feat to identify the spell as a reaction; if they have a form of magic detection AND are master or higher in Occultism then they can also use Quick Identification on their turn and spend 3 actions [1 action for legendary Occultism] to identify the spell against a DC 33 [Rank 7 spell, +2 for uncommon] - anything below master takes too long for combat.

The spell also has no obvious visual effects (like an exploding fireball or vines appearing all around), so while everybody knows the sorcerer is casting a spell, they have no idea what the spell does, nor who/what the target of the spell was - whether the target itself knows is up to the GM, e.g. by using the Charm spell as guideline:

Critical Success The target is unaffected and aware you tried to charm it.

Success The target is unaffected but thinks your spell was something harmless instead of charm, unless it identifies the spell.

If the controlled enemy does something odd, then other enemies can spend actions to Sense Motive to detect the magic control. But otherwise, while people know mind control exists, if they cannot quickly identify the spell, then they have no idea that their ally is currently controlled.

That's a cool guide!

In general, I would recommend to switch the ratings towards the different versions of the spellheart, e.g. don't rate the spellheart itself but the base/greater/major version. For example, the base Jolt Coil is the best spellheart around its level but the higher-level versions are less useful because of the static DC and it giving less resistance than other spellhearts.

As for the ratings themselves:

You underrated the Jolt Coil, as its base version is definitely the best spellheart (around its level), as Electric Arc is the best damage cantrip and electricity resistance is fairly useful.

The Foxglove Token is also critically underrated, as there is no other way to get poison resistance that easily - you can always get energy-resistant runes for your armor against fire/acid/cold/electricity damage, but poison resistance is super hard to get and poison is fairly often encountered, especially as it reduces all persistent poison damage.

The same is true for the Heartmoss: mental resistance is hard to get, but also a more rare damage type compared to poison.

The Perfect Droplet is very campaign dependent, as its resistance is to the water trait, not any specific damage type. In an aquatic campaign this might be valued as if it were hardness.

Same for the Polished Demon Horn: in anti-demon/anti-devil/anti-undead campaigns the resistance to unholy triggers very often.

The Warding Statuette seems very overrated imo, as you have both the issue of fixed spell attack and spell attacks being weak in general; in other words, you never really hit with the spells and thus never get the bonus AC.

The ratings of the cantrips should probably be based on Gortle's Spell Guide, as Puff of Poison is much worse than Scatter Scree - an AoE cantrip that you can use against swarms for example.

The save bonuses in general can be disregarded, as people usually get a resilient armor rune as soon as they can, at least before getting a spellheart if possible, and the item bonuses don't stack.

For that reason some of the spellhearts, like Jyoti's Feather would have a lower rating as far as I'm concerned.

I used Warping Pull yesterday to get our Exemplar out of a very bad situation: He got hit, grabbed, and swallowed whole by a monster. Since the initial damage was low I didn't react to the hit - and couldn't react to the grab - but fortunately Swallow Whole is a damaging effect! The 10ft teleportation saved him and also ended the grab. Can very much recommend this (purple?) spell!

p.s.: I don't think Warping Pull works once you have already been swallowed whole, but only on the initial Swallow Whole attack action.

There really isn't anything afaik in terms of items, though some rare effects can work on them, like all things Harrow (suit of Crowns).:
- the Harrowing ritual
- the Harrower archetype omen
- the Harrow Sorcerer's advanced & greater bloodline spells.

Assurance suffers from there being no reliable DC modifiers.

Lore skills are the only ones with a reliable DC modifier, but they're so specific that they're not worth investing skill feats into during normal campaigns. You'd need a special campaign like Spore Wars where Additional Lore (Demons) + Assurance + Automatic Knowledge pays off.