Thaago's page

RPG Superstar 9 Season Star Voter. 333 posts (726 including aliases). No reviews. 1 list. No wishlists. 2 aliases.


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Fantastic post describing your experiences, thank you very much for taking the time to write it up!


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Unicore wrote:
YuriP wrote:

The alchemist has an advantage when using this concept of blast-buffing feats that's the fact the Advanced Alchemy reagents system gives it a independent source of different "blasts" without consume the char's class feats. This give free space to use feats to do things like Calculated Splash.

But kineticist doesn't have such free space. It's feats slots dispute space with Elemental Impulses and bonus/modification Feats. A good example is Stoke Element that dispute the level 6 feat slot with others Elemental Feats of the same level.

In order to add boost feats the class will need to give extra impulses in some other way to prevent an excessive dispute for feat slots or the inverse, these boosts need to come from chassis directly allowing feats to be used more freely to take Elemental Impulses.

I think SanityFaerie's point is that choosing to focus on blasting should be possible, but only at the cost of not getting to do much else with the Kineticist feats. Since all of the utility powers are self-contained in a single feat, it defeats the purpose of making a choice if a kineticist can pick up as many utility feats as they really want, but otherwise be the best blastiest blaster in the game.

The whole point is that they DON'T get to pick up as many utility feats as they want while otherwise being the best blasteiest blaster in the game.

Feats are limited resources, and Kineticists are already WAY more feat limited than theorycraft gives credit for. If I'm dedicating 80% of my feats to blasting, yes that means that I still get 1 or 2 utility feats. But I'm going to have way, way less utility than a kineticist who doesn't take the blasting feats and takes more utility boosters.


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They can swap to those impulses with 10 minutes at level 12... but only a few are flexible (up to 2 at level 15) and only at impulse levels (<=8, <=14), and otherwise their choices must be locked in. And this ability isn't free: it cost them their level 12 feat.

This is quite good for allowing them to take the out of combat utility powers, such as the water breathing one, or flight (though they probably already have flight). Or they can swap in a healing power, heal up, and swap out, thats a good one. If they got intel about a particular enemy type that had a weakness they could swap to a power that has that damage type. However...

They can't take everything at the same time, and they can't swap in combat. Their feat choices are as locked in as everyone else. Any given build could be taking from any element sure, but they still need to have a build. "Universalists" as a group can do anything, but a "universalist" cannot.


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If I'm being honest I'm not convinced that universal "pulls ahead" at higher levels.

The conjecture depends on there being impulses from 3 or 4 different elements that, when combined, give unique advantages. But what are those combos, and how reasonable is it to pull them off in battle? Do they really eclipse what a Dual element can do with two?

Getting access to all blasts, extracts, and defenses is quite good - especially the extracts for fighting elementals and dragons!

But consider a universalist at level 10 - if they are taking Cycling Blast, Aura Control, Gather Amalgamation (Gather Amalgamation is of questionable usefulness, but its often mentioned) then they have feats free: 1(any), 1(flexible impulse), 2, 4, 9 (flexible 8th or lower). Rapid reatunement (12) was mentioned as being incredible for universalists because they can adjust their flexible powers more than anyone else, and flowing kinetics (14) is a massive mobility increase... but this doesn't leave any room for impulse powers! Luckily another flexible one appears at 15.

That was kind of an extreme example, but what I'm getting at is that if a Universalist takes all of the feats that have been mentioned as making them amazing (or are just incredible for kineticists in general), they have no room left to take impulse powers. They can't have everything and need to actually pick a build/strategy.


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Before level 8 the Auras, with the exception of Air's fantastic one, all require being 10 ft away from allies. That can work but is tough and stops flanking for melee characters, which is annoying.

A weird thing is that while Aura Shaping works perfectly with the level 1 auras, it does not work well with the level 4 auras. Because all targets of Aura Shaping have to have the same effect (IE ignore downside or ignore upsides), you can't both exempt allies from the downsides and exempt enemies from the upside at the same time.

Like if you exempt allies from the damage of Dessert Shimmer, enemies are still concealed from your allies (but not from you).


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I'll also note that at 8th level the damage reduction from Spike Skin stacks with Earth Shield, and spikeskin can be a precombat buff (with a 1 hour cooldown it needs to be used strategically, but you can rotate through front liners!).

So at 8th, thats 4 reduction on for 10 hits/minutes with 2 damage strikeback, plus a 15 damage reduction on the shield once/round! Its taking 2/3 of actions every turn but, it only takes that 2cd action if the enemy attacks you - otherwise the next turn you can do other things (and with a difficult terrain aura if they choose not to attack you they might have to spend multiple actions getting away to even reach someone else).


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One thing I'm noticing in my playtesting as an air kineticist is that I'm forcing enemies to do move actions rather than steps, which is great. The aura, flinging updraft, and boomerang's damage on the next turn (depending on GM: is the boomerang noticeably whirling back so even animals know its coming? Or is it subtle so even high intelligence enemies only know after they've seen it?) all combine to force enemies to use that move action, which the other party members with AoO love (have a fighter and a stand still monk).

However, my poor kineticist is in melee with no reaction other than feather fall - which is a great reaction to have and has been very useful out of combat! But its not a combat reaction, so I'm usually not using one.

I know one of the directions being considered for the kineticist is "more martial" - if that is the direction taken, I think an AoO type ability, with a rider attached for each element, would be really cool and a good increase in the class's combat potential.

It would also just increase the number of actions that kineticists take overall: right now with gather elements being a "dead" action after an overflow, and there being 2 and 3 action impulses, this would give the player a bit more to do.


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Unicore wrote:

Also, when I played an 11th level Air Kineticist, I never felt like my action economy was suffering but that could have been because I didn't take storm spiral because the range was too low to fit the build I had made.

I am just saying that it might be worth paying attention, when players complain about the classes action economy to notice what choices they are making on abilities and gates. If there is already a "common knowledge" that "dedicated gate Kineticists are terrible" and "Universal gate Kineticists are the one true build," and yet those exact same players are feeling like the class struggles to have enough actions to use all the 3 action overflow abilities they chose, then it is possible that they are missing some of the intended drawbacks and nuances of the class.

All playtest data is valid. SO it could be that the text around gates needs to explain the importance of not overloading on high action cost overflow abilities and having a wider spread of options. I just think theory crafters should be careful jumping to conclusions about builds because I have seen and experienced loads of fun being had with dedicated gate Kineticist, including my own mid level experience at level 11. Trying to get too complicated with a class can lead to a bad time even with a fighter or a rogue.

So far in playtesting (I haven't been able to do too much, just a few sessions with a Str Air dedicated gate) the action economy has been mostly ok... except for the turn after I use boomerang. Overflow is a huge cost on the class! I also have really wanted to be able to do flinging updraft and then have a better ranged attack for third action, but I can't because I'm dedicated air (and often I can't do a ranged attack at all because I'm using elemental weapon to have some damage).

I've read posts saying gather amalgamation is amazing because it lets you throw multiple overflows from 1 gather... but to get benefit from it the character needs to have chosen multiple overflow abilities, which is a huge downside because it means that they didn't take the non-overflow feats.


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Gaulin wrote:
Yup. I initially read it incorrectly as well.

So did I! I think the ability is fine, but could use a clarification line (in theory the trait is enough but its so easy to miss).


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Dubious Scholar wrote:

Dedicated gate doesn't have to think about what to gather, but is still paying the full price every overflow.

Cycling Blast is, imo, the best action economy helper, since it lets you Overflow>Gather+Strike every turn. Gather Amalgamation is also good for universal at 10. Dedicated gate has no action economy feats at all.

I'd also argue that overflow is a lesser cost for dual/universal gates in some situations. If you're going to switch element anyways, overflow is free, basically.

Cycling Blast doesn't work this way. Its an Impulse so you MUST have an element already gathered to use it - it doesn't work after an Overflow.

Its still a fantastic action saver for combining the abilities/blasts of multiple gates, but it doesn't help with overflow action economy.


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Igneogenesis is a potentially brokenly good ability that needs to be clarified what exactly it can do.

"The object must be relatively simple in shape and can’t include any intricate parts, moving pieces, or fine details. It must fit within one 5-foot cube that’s adjacent to you, and you can make the object large enough to occupy the square. If you create the object underneath you or
another willing creature, you cause the target to rise into the air; you can’t create it under an unwilling creature."

So how about making a foot thick shell of stone around an ally that just got wailed on, with a hole in the back for them to get out of (hardness 14, 56 hp)? Or trapping an enemy (saving throw is only for UNDER an unwilling creature)? A lesser form of that: put up a wall around 3 edges and the top of the enemy space so that they can't retreat/move but you can still attack them. Or how about making a portcullis across a door (this one is more in the spirit of the ability). Or making instant cover. Out of combat you can take advantage of it being only one at a time and it going away when another is cast: make a trap by plugging a river or using it as a support pillar for a structure, or something like that.


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Hrrrm, I'm seeing a lot of 'Chain Blast is good/amazing' going around, but I really don't think it is. I haven't done a rigorous analysis yet, but a quick look does not leave me impressed. On the one hand multiple MAPless attacks is great, but on the other hand any miss ending the chain is rough.

Its only going to be used vs multiple lower level enemies, so that helps, but even if the hit chance is all the way up to 75%, that means you only get to the 3rd attack 56% of the time.


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YuriP wrote:
Thaago wrote:

As to "why melee", there are actually a good number of reasons:

1) flanking support to both yourself and allies
2) manuevers
3) str to damage
4) spreading damage out among other melee characters

Being ranged is good too of course, especially when long ranged or flying enemies are around, or if the terrain stops melee from doing their job efficiently.

But having everything except kinetic blade strikes provoke AoO is really annoying, as is the lack of medium armor on a class that otherwise has good support for Con+Str as main ability scores.

With this 4 points you showed a lot of problems that Kineticist currently have to fight at close quarters:

1) flanking support to both yourself and allies:
Flaking is one of the best melee strategies since the D&D 3.0. But to real benefit from flaking it's supposed that your char will receive some real benefit from it or that you are ready to accept the frontline risk to benefit from flat-foot condition.
So to a Champion/Fighter and Rogue goes to front and do this with a heavy armor, shield and Deny advantage+Precision damage it's one thing. The other is the Kineticist going to same risky situation without any real advantage or protection (basically it has only disadvantage because melee just diminish your Impulse options).
2) manuevers
This is a thing that Kineticist don't have. Str isn't even a KAS for it. The class also don't have any ability of feat that helps to do maneuvers like fighters, barbarian, monks and even eidolons have.
3) str to damage
OK you can have, but once again isn't your KAS and if you strongly invest in it using str APEX you will end even with less HP and less "strike" power than any other martial at same time.
4) spreading damage out among other melee characters
Well I don't need to stay in front line to do this...

My point here is. The currently Kyneticist design is completely unfavorable to act melee. It's basically a caster build with a martial chassis and a strange...

Sorry, but I don't think any of this is correct. The question was "why melee at all?" and those are 4 good reasons. Ranged has its own advantages, but all of these are reasons for a kineticist to go melee than ranged.

1) Flanking for +2 to hit on blasts/weapons is valuable as kineticists aren't doing overflow impulses very often (or at all if they don't get serious buffs), and kineticists have quite good abilities that deal with debuffing enemies or being defensive at close range. Are kineticists attacking sometimes? Then flanking is good. And moreover it gives flanking to the other melee characters too.

2) Kineticists have a free hand, can't use that hand for offense, have a hands free shield option, and can get strength to ranged attack accuracy. They can safely start at 16 and increase every 5 levels while leaving dex low: maneuvers are great on them! Having 1 less point on the roll for some levels is a downside, but not a big enough one to stop maneuvers from being valuable.

3) While I would like kineticists to get a damage booster (they really really need one), for this case it doesn't matter that it is less than martials: it is still an advantage for the kineticist that they deal more damage melee than ranged. For an air kineticist its going to be 1d8+3 vs d4 for example!

4) Yes you do? Front lines take more hits, so a character with decent AC (medium/heavy armor, which medium were in class) and good HP (it will) can use that armor/HP as a resource to help other melee characters, by taking hits! Its not always a good idea to do so, but its a valid and important strategy.


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AoE's are useful tools to have in the toolbox, but they aren't appropriate for all situations. They spread damage out, but at the same time when faced with many enemies they are the numbers one way to end encounters fast, usually after a debuff has been cast as well.

Comparing damage to a martial is a useful exercise - using the tool found here: bahalbach.github.io/PF2Calculator/

Comparing a 2d6+1 damage save effect (dangerous sorcery) to a greatsword (d12) fighter's 2 attack routine vs 1 target, the damage effect keeps up pretty well. It has some highs and lows, but it usually hovers around 75% of the damage. It does roughly the same damage as a d8 fighter striking twice, sometimes higher, sometimes lower.

So the idea of the "normal" blasts not helping the martials to take down single targets isn't true - its like another martial taking 2 swings at them. Especially because at the higher level the spells start out-scaling 2d6 (and lightning bolt starts a d12 ahead even at 3rd). Now thats not fantastic considering that spell slots are pretty restricted and there are some awesome control/debuff spells that are going to be more valuable, but its not useless, and using the spells well means hitting 3-4 targets instead of 1.

Even using under leveled slots (2-3 levels below max once in the mid/upper levels) and focus spells (-1d6 and no dangerous sorcery) will put out good damage numbers against more than 1 enemy, and at much lower resource cost. I've had very good success opening combat with potent control spells (wall of stone, slow 6, etc) and then switching to focus blasts and minus a few level chain lightning to clean things up.


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Yes, cycling blast requires having an element gathered. It allows for dual/universal kineticists to get a free attack if they want to switch elements while still gathered, which to be fair is really great; there are a lot of good aura/control/buffing moves that are not overflow. Things like an air-earth activating their aura turn 1, then swapping to the higher damage element for an attack, etc.

But it doesn't do anything to help overflow moves, those still need a regular gather (or extract) afterwards.


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d4 is way too low. Bows can already reach nearly this far (or MUCH farther with a ranger) and do d8 + deadly d10 with propulsive (though thats usually not more than a point). And then those classes get another damage boost on top! (Either accuracy, or flurry, or precision, etc)


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Used just as a shield: The power is excellent. It gives you a raised shield AND +2 Fort AND leaves your free hand free for grapples/maneuvers/held items. A kineticist using a physical shield has no hands free and so cannot do those things.

Used as a shield block: The reaction costs an extra action the next turn, which is bad. However it is significantly more damage blocked than a normal shield, even a sturdy one, and while it is dismissed vs further attacks it cannot be permanently broken (new one summoned next turn). As a defensive "oh crap I'm getting wailed on" option, its worth it.

[Edit] For those saying it scales too fast: it takes an extra action on the next turn, which is a heavy cost. Currently its worth it, but if it only blocked as much as a normal sturdy shield it would be bad (reaction + action for the same value as a normal reaction).


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No, it shouldn't. The class should have medium armor by default.


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Great, thanks to you both! That's what I thought but I wanted to check!


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Guntermench wrote:
Kind of pointless for dedicated though because they can just take all four of their level 1 feats at level 1.

True, though I suspect quite a few builds are also going to want Elemental Weapon and/or Flexible blasts.

But honestly, for literally any melee kineticist I want medium armor, so Sentinel at level 2 is looking pretty much mandatory.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Guntermench wrote:

I think the whole class only has 2 level 2 feats.

I strongly suspect the reason that the playtest has only 2 new feats you can take at level 2 is to see what Archetypes people are going to try to pair this with, to see if it breaks anything.

Also the level 1 feats/impulse powers are very good, especially for power-starved universal, so if not archetyping taking a level 1 power is reasonable.


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I agree with both reasons. It is not a particularly powerful ability (unlike flurry of blows) so having this just be part of the base class would be fine.

(The reason its not very strong is that it adds a 3rd MAP attack after attacking twice - that is some benefit, but 3rd attacks are weak so the free component is not very much. It still requires attacking twice, so things like move-barrage-move are impossible, as are barrage-2 action impulse.)


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Re: scaling keeping up with cantrips:

2+1 action cost abilities that a class needs to pay a feat for barely keeping up with 2 action at will abilities that classes get 5 of for free at start is not good.

And the kineticist DC starts to fall behind later, so even if the raw damage roll keeps up with cantrips, the actual damage done will not.


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Oh yikes! So in addition to doing significantly less damage than a cantrip while costing 2+1 actions, it only hits 1 square. Thats... not great.


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aobst128 wrote:
Yeah, blasts are basically standard martial attacks without any boosters. I like them but they could use some more stuff. Either a more generally useful impulse as a core feature or some kind of damage booster.

They are actually worse because Kineticist's attack stat is behind for half the levels.

For ranged kineticists: its like taking a full caster and giving them 16 dexterity and a bow. That bow would be useful for 3rd action attacks! Cantrip + Bow strike would be a decent turn to spend no resources on at low level.

But now take the bow and maybe reduce its stats (bows are better than some blasts, depending on range and if shortbow vs longbow). Air especially. Make it so that the cantrip forces you to draw the bow again before you can do any other attacks or spellcasting, so you can't do the same thing 2 rounds in a row. Make it so that you only have 1 type of cantrip you can draw from at a time (or only 1 cantrip period).


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Nitro~Nina wrote:

A strength-focus is suggested by the Earth element, but it also suggests an up-close style of play unsupported by the armour options if you don't still pump Dex. This means that your character likely has to end up with poor-to-average Mental scores unless you dump your Class DC and HP.

I find the chance for a PC to have access to the Brutal trait so rad that I'm definitely going to be playing a Geokineticist and hurling rocks around like Pohatu, but I'd like to be at least a little durable when doing so.

While I really want the class to get medium armor built in, characters can after a few levels get both medium and heavy armor. Needing to wait levels for AC is not great for survival, but Str based characters without high dex don't sacrifice ranged attacks, so you can have a switch hitter with "full" accuracy in both without needing to pump both stats.


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Martialmasters wrote:

Look at any aoe from casters or martials.

What are the limits?

Range, action cost, uses per day.

Currently a kineticist can do them effectively infinitely. And at massive area of effects. So the damage is low as well as the action cost being restrictive.

We'd probably need drastic range decrease to get better action economy early on.

A few responses:

1) The area of effect is not massive. Most of the overflow impulses have shorter ranged and worse areas than spells. Some are comparable, but not all, and none approach fireball or chain lightning.

2) Focus spells are also infinite per day, but limited per encounter. Currently focus spells are stronger than most overflows despite costing less actions. At low levels these are once/encounter, plus additional times for a 'boss' encounter. At higher levels it becomes 2 or even 3 times per encounter, which isn't much less than what a kineticist is going to be doing considering combats don't last very long and the high action costs here. Especially if the Kineticist is using some of its support abilities/auras (which are great!) mixed in with normal attacks.

2) It doesn't matter if something has infinite uses per day if the rest of the party has already finished the encounter with the kineticist not contributing much. Or if the party dies because the kineticist couldn't pull its weight.


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Sydney S. wrote:
Thaago wrote:
The elements have quite good 1st level feats actually. Plus the feats can be spent on familiar, weapon, and flexible blasts.

The feats gained from dedicated/dual gate must come with the relevant elemental tag; you can't take the unrestricted options.

And I strongly disagree with these "level 1 elemental feats are good" takes I'm seeing in here.
The only ones I'd take on purpose are aerial boomerang (maybe some other AoE option instead, but never two at once) and maaaaybe Winter's Clutch because minor free AoE damage is still free AoE damage. Assuming I didn't have line of effect to an actual enemy. And I didn't want to spend those three actions on just... moving to where I'd have line of effect.

Errrrr what? Just glancing through and picking up the ones where I go "yup thats really good to have": There are two different AoE difficult terrain auras (one gives termorsense, the other buffs allies with speed), an AoE level=resist aura for heat or cold, featherfall, an excellent self shield, reaction damage resist=level for a bunch of damage types, and a move other character ability.

Thats not counting the damage overflows because they are undertuned. With proper damage and scaling I would use any of them (they need to scale as real focus spells or better considering their +1 action cost that also lowers the player elemental defenses if done in the second 2 actions of a turn!).


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The elements have quite good 1st level feats actually. Plus the feats can be spent on familiar, weapon, and flexible blasts.

The exception is fire, because the more I look at it, the more nearly everything in fire is significantly undertuned vs the other elements.


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As title. Manipulate making everything the class can do except elemental weapon, including the base melee attack actions, provoke feels bad. I know that AoO's are fairly rare on enemies, and there are options for casters to shut down enemy reactions, but it just seems unnecessary and unfun to have a class where almost everything provokes.

So, make it so that only the really big moves do it.

Side note: Fire's movement ability which prevents reactions to movement from the movement itself... provokes an AoO if done next to an enemy.


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Focus spells are unlimited per day as well, and only take 2 actions. In early levels they may be once/encounter, but encounters are only ~4 rounds long! And with multiple focus points in the pool, the focus spell can be called out multiple times for big climactic fights. At upper levels they can be 2-3 times per encounter.

2+1 action cost on the overflow abilities is a big downside - if a kineticist needs to move either to pull them off, or get out of danger, or for any reason, they can't do one every turn. Every other turn is a more realistic rate, at which point they aren't being used that much more than focus spells. So if they are the same power as focus spells, then you have an ability set that will be used the same, maybe a bit more than focus spells, but costs half again as many actions.

To me that points to 2+1 action cost overflow abilities needing to be more powerful than focus spells. They just take too many actions to not be.


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Ryuujin-sama wrote:

That might almost make it worthwile if it cost 1 action and didn't have the other restrictions. But even then it doesn't really feel all that useful for the cost of 1 action each time you want to use it. If it lasted a minute or something affecting all your Impulses during that time it might be different. Or even if it affected all of your Impulses until the end of your next turn, while also not preventing you from using Impulses that turn, it might be okay-ish.

It just seems like an extremely bad feat, especially if you can't use it after using another Impulse that turn.

It could use clearer wording, but it doesn't mean that. You can't use another Impulse after doing Stoke, but you can before. Its essentially a "third action" that boosts your next turn's first Impulse.

Its not good enough, but I can see what they are going for.


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The fire impulses in particular are egregiously bad. 3 total actions (including gathering) to do less than a cantrip, with worse than a cantrip scaling is... really bad.


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FAQ wrote:
Effects (including abilities and spells) that change a creature’s speeds do not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing; the powered armor's speeds replace the creature's. A creature wearing powered armor can use the speeds (both type and distance) only of its powered armor.
Slow wrote:

...

Targets up to one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
...
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both, and it can’t take full actions. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment). Multiple slow effects don’t stack. Slow counters and negates haste.

It seems 100% clear to me that Slow would not change the speed of a Powered Armor wearer as things are stated right now.

Is Slow a spell? Yes. Does it affect a creature? Yes. Therefore it does not affect the speeds of powered armor that creature is wearing.

The language (doubling, halving, whatever) does not matter one bit. The speeds of the Powered Armor are not affected. The creature would still be staggered, but their movement speeds would be the same.


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Not investing in armor at all means taking 2 times more damage than you otherwise would (assuming a non AC focused character in the first place). If in your party you can afford to take 2 times more damage and still be contributing, then go for it: Armor is expensive after all. I would not recommend it though... any serious attack on the backline from swarming/intelligent/high mobility enemies will drop you in half the rounds.

If fighting humanoid enemies, you should be able to scavenge armor of near level quality, which will at least get you some defense. If not, then at least get level - 2 armor or something similar.

In either case, Golemforged 1 is a very bad armor and you would be better off switching to Second Skin even if you don't want to have good AC, because that would remove the movement penalties.


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@Xoshaka
I believe you are incorrect in a couple ways.

Starting with concealment:

Quote:
Concealment gives the target of a successful attack a chance that the attacker actually missed. This is called a miss chance. Normally, the miss chance for concealment is 20%. Make the attack normally; if the attacking creature would hit, the target must roll a 20 or lower on a d% roll (see page 513) to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.

And the line weapon special quality:

Quote:
This weapon fires a projectile in a straight line that pierces through multiple creatures or obstacles. When attacking with such a weapon, make a single attack roll and compare it to the relevant Armor Class of all creatures and objects in a line extending to the weapon’s listed range increment. Roll damage only once. The weapon hits all targets with an AC equal to or lower than the attack roll....

Bolded for emphasis. The line weapon is an attack: not an attack against a given creature, but an attack all the same, and it can hit. Concealment applies after an attack hits: it applies. Nothing in the section defining areas mentions them bypassing concealment anyways: any other effect that makes an attack roll against AC and hits would also suffer from concealment.

For cover:

First off, nothing about cover or soft cover mentions area of effect at all. Soft cover says:

Quote:
Creatures, even enemies, between you and the source of an effect provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, soft cover provides no bonus to Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to attempt a Stealth check.

The line weapon special quality is an attack vs AC, not reflex, so even soft cover gives +4 AC. Any other area effect that targets AC would also be affected by soft cover.

For regular cover:

Quote:
Cover does not necessarily block precise senses, but it does make it more difficult for enemies to hit you. To determine whether your target has cover from your attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover. Cover grants you a +4 bonus to AC and a +2 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks that originate from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and negate these bonuses.

This is slightly annoying because of the bolded bit: there are specific things (like a waist high wall) that explicitly provide cover, but shouldn't block line of effect for weapons with the line quality if they roll high enough damage. You can adjudicate this three ways:

1) Things that explicitly give cover, like waist high walls, some equipment/feats, and creatures give +4 AC. Things that would just stop normal bullets (like full walls, pillars, etc) provide no bonus.

2) Things that provide cover against regular attacks provide cover against weapons with the line special quality attacks.

3) No object provides cover against line attacks.

1 leads to paradoxes pretty quickly - a half wall or a small creature gives cover, but a full wall or gunport doesn't? 2 and 3 are both internally consistent, but makes for the very strange case that creatures provide soft cover but other things that are even easier to penetrate provides no bonus. I did hit the FAQ button on page 2 regarding this, but I believe that ruling 2 is correct.


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I'll state this again: Line of Effect does not belong in this discussion at all. To use a weapon with a line special quality, do what it says.

Draw a line and make an attack roll --> check AC --> check if any hit targets take no damage.

Thats it.

Its not an AoE, its a special attack with its own rules. Cover and concealment apply as normal.


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Xoshak, why does penetration effect cover at all? The line weapon special quality says to make attacks against everything in the line, with the caveat about being stopped on a hit with no damage. It makes no mention of cover or negating it. Even when the line is stopped, its not because of total cover; its because the line weapon description says its stopped.

The cover rules tell us to trace line from our square's corners to the target square's corners. Its still us making an attack roll, so I don't see why that doesn't apply. Compare the line weapon special quality to the blast weapon special quality, which specifically ignores concealment. Line doesn't have that language.

I can now see a potential argument: that the source of the attack on a given creature is from within its own square, and as such has no cover. But I don't think this is the case, as its not mentioned at all: the property says to make an attack roll, and without other language that means the firing character is the source.

This isn't a targeted aoe: its a specific rule as detailed in the line special weapon description.


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Line just doesn't say that it ignores cover: it just says to compare the single attack roll to the various creatures/objects AC. When calculating AC for your attack roll, cover adds a bonus.

So as weird as it sounds, line weapons don't ignore cover at all, so creatures give each other soft cover (either normal or partial depending on the specific squares/sizes involved). Even if the barrier is a piece of plastic with hardness 1 and hitpoints 1... its still cover (until its destroyed).

I am interpreting the words "relevant Armor Class" in the line weapon description to mean "EAC or KAC, depending on weapon type" - I think that is a reasonable interpretation, but I could be wrong.


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There is no need to bring line of effect into this discussion at all for basic line weapons, because you aren't targeting creatures at all. You:

Draw line and roll attack --> check AC --> check if anything hit takes no damage and stops the line.

Thats it. No "targeting a creature" involved because with a line weapon you fire in a line through squares.

Creatures get the usual cover bonuses because you are comparing your single attack roll to AC, and the weapon property does not alter that AC.

Creatures get the usual concealment miss chance on a hit, because that takes place after a hit and nothing in the weapon property alters that.

If I overcome hardness, you bet I can shoot through a wall. I just first have to: 1) guess that the enemy is there 2) hit on AC + 8 3) get lucky on the 50% miss chance. Its... really not that effective anyways so I don't particularly see players abusing it.


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How is there any debate here?

Lines are magic fantasy beams that attack everything in their area of effect (a line). They explicitly shoot through anything that takes damage. Period end of story; its right there in the line weapon property description.

If you roll more than the hardness of rock (or use adamantine rounds), then yes it goes through the mountain. Is that unrealistic? Yes, but its equally silly for a rail cannon's round to magically stop at 60 feet. Both of those things are RAW. You can apply whatever house rules you like to your own games.

For any target hit that has concealment miss chances apply - miss chances are added after a hit is confirmed from AC and the line property does not chance that.

For targets that have cover, they get their AC bonus as normal - the cover rules add to AC and nothing in the line property changes that.


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:) I agree with you it does concealment and not cover. I wish that the grenade description said something like "squares inside the explosion provide concealment." instead of the current language, which is confusing.

As to the original question: I think grenades are worth it for their status effects, not for damage. Of the status effects, I think Blinded is very worth it, entangled and staggered are just ok.

As an example for blinded, lets look at a 10th level situation, where the party encounters 4 CR 8 enemies. This is a APL + 2, or hard fight. It should reward the players with an average of 34,000 credits.

Lets say a dex based character throws a level 6 flash grenade, which costs 1350 credits. The character probably has a dex bonus of around 7 at this point (4 starting, 1 from leveling, 2 from boost), so the DC for the save is 20. Going by the bestiary, a CR 8 enemy has a reflex save of +10, so they have a 55% chance to save.

The grenade has a 10 ft radius, and a soldier with powerful explosive increases that to 15 ft. It depends on the situation, but it would be really weird not to catch 2-4 of those 4 enemies in the area. Or on average 1-2 enemies are blinded.

Blinded is a nasty condition. Unless they are immune or have a recovery ability, those enemies are useless for d4 rounds. If all 4 enemies are in the radius (lets say you sneak up on them or have an operative do it), then thats average half the enemies mostly useless for on average 2.5 rounds. ~10% chance to blind all four of them.

So 1 standard action from one character consumes 4% of the encounters expected wealth gain to give a serious advantage (knocking half the enemies in the encounter out of action for 2 rounds). To me that is very worth it.


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M Human Bard 5
Stats:
Spells Left: inf/4/3 | Performance: 13/15 | Init: +4 | HP: 36/36 | AC: 20 | FF: 18 | TC: 12 | F/R/W: 4/7/5 | Perc: 8 | Se. Mo: 11 | +4 saves against sonic, language dependent, and bardic abilities

As the fire leaps towards Elioden he makes a desperate stab.

Ouch.: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (13) + 7 = 20
Could have used that roll last time!: 1d8 + 7 ⇒ (8) + 7 = 15

A vindictive smile flickers on Elioden's mouth before he lapses unconscious, the light from his sword guttering out.


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M Human Bard 5
Stats:
Spells Left: inf/4/3 | Performance: 13/15 | Init: +4 | HP: 36/36 | AC: 20 | FF: 18 | TC: 12 | F/R/W: 4/7/5 | Perc: 8 | Se. Mo: 11 | +4 saves against sonic, language dependent, and bardic abilities

Listening to Cel and Dara, he relaxes. "Thank the spirits." He then grins. "All I know about what happened on Oranis I learned from Terry, so nothing. If you'd like to tell me though, I could write a proper song. I'd even get your names right."

Upon hearing Henri though, he can't help but crack a grin. "Fine, fine, have it your way. And its not sewers, its underground passages carved by a scorned river spirit. And ancestral burial grounds with their own guardians. And whatever is left over from the sacred site that the elves built a palace on top of. And sometimes there are things under the water that are only spoken of in whispers. What could possibly go wrong?"


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M Human Bard 5
Stats:
Spells Left: inf/4/3 | Performance: 13/15 | Init: +4 | HP: 36/36 | AC: 20 | FF: 18 | TC: 12 | F/R/W: 4/7/5 | Perc: 8 | Se. Mo: 11 | +4 saves against sonic, language dependent, and bardic abilities

<3 Thanks for the welcome!

Elioden finishes cleaning himself and makes his way through the crowd, seeking out the prospective heroes. He reaches them just in time to hear Terry's last words and snorts out loud. He steps up beside Terry.

"Heroes of Southtown! In case you are unfamiliar with the insects of more temperate climes, I present to you a genuine Kinghaven Leech!" Elioden gestures grandly at Terry with both hands. "This fine specimen now owes me a new shirt, as he got ale and blood on my last one and completely ruined it." He plucks forlornly at the, very much clean, shirt in question. "Alas, this poor thing is the only replacement I could get on such short notice."

His face turns instantly from frown to grin and his gaze sweeps over the party. "I am Elioden Aubergine, bard and explorer extraordinaire, at your service. Were you aware that the rumors about you are completely wrong?" He gives Henri a wink. "While they mention Zeezow here's beauty, they leave out her alarming accuracy with a bottle."


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M Human Bard 5
Stats:
Spells Left: inf/4/3 | Performance: 13/15 | Init: +4 | HP: 36/36 | AC: 20 | FF: 18 | TC: 12 | F/R/W: 4/7/5 | Perc: 8 | Se. Mo: 11 | +4 saves against sonic, language dependent, and bardic abilities

Elioden shoots a glance towards the opening door and blinks once in surprise, a wicked smile appearing on his face. He flicks an arm behind him to make sure his cloak is well clear of his lute before bringing his hand down to strike an opening chord.

“Friends! Gather round now and listen to a new story, that of heroism! Daring! The creation of a new pantheon of heroes for our age. For just a week ago our kingdom was saved from dire evil. I speak of course of the Ballad of Bulae!”

He begins to pluck out a heroic tune, a ranging line underscored with rythmic strumming.

On a day of biting cold,
Came our heroes, brave and bold,
To Southtown, and a garrison laid low.
For while you slept upon your bed,
An evil reared its ugly head,
In Southtown, and a mountain cloaked in shadow.

The tune stops momentarily, with only a strum as Eliodin announces each name.

Mighty BULAE of Altien, grizzled old Paladin,
Wondrous DAREEN, princess of the dwarves!
The Gunman HENRY, her loyal bodyguard.
Stalwart PEL, a knight brave and true.
Lovely ZEEZOW healer extraordinaire!
ELENA the strong, champion of the arena!

The tune starts again.

Onto the deadly mountainside
These dashing heroes proudly stride
Hoping enemies would dare cross their path.
But high above, in lair most foul
HALKION does plot and scowl
As the heroes have been tempting his wrath.

First came the old, shambling remains,
Naught but bone and steel and stains,
Of soldiers from long forgotten war.
Bulae did glow and Elena did flex
Dareen's arrows fell from apex
And they struck down all enemies near and far.

Hi! I'm back and this will be fun...

Also more song coming, but I am both lazy and interested in reactions :P


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Female Half-Elf Inquisitor (Spellbreaker) 3
Stats:
Init: +4 | HP:14/26 | AC: 23 | FF: 18 | Tch: 11 | Fort: +5 | Ref: +2 | Will: +5 | Perc: 9| Sen Mtv: 11| Double Rolls against mind affecting | +2 Against Enchantment | Immune Sleep

Dulae stares at him blankly. "Right." She turns to go back inside, muttering "Its a miracle you were kidnapped in the street where we could see you..."


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Female Half-Elf Inquisitor (Spellbreaker) 3
Stats:
Init: +4 | HP:14/26 | AC: 23 | FF: 18 | Tch: 11 | Fort: +5 | Ref: +2 | Will: +5 | Perc: 9| Sen Mtv: 11| Double Rolls against mind affecting | +2 Against Enchantment | Immune Sleep

"Altien teaches that there is always more evil to drive out." Dulae says, gazing up at the dark cloud. She spares Henri a glance and claps her overly hard on the shoulder. "But my mentor always said that if we're smart we can trick the paladins into standing in front of us."

Her expression turns severe and she rounds on Silo. "It's also more easily dealt with when there aren't unsecured entrances into the private quarters of strategic assets."


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Female Half-Elf Inquisitor (Spellbreaker) 3
Stats:
Init: +4 | HP:14/26 | AC: 23 | FF: 18 | Tch: 11 | Fort: +5 | Ref: +2 | Will: +5 | Perc: 9| Sen Mtv: 11| Double Rolls against mind affecting | +2 Against Enchantment | Immune Sleep

"Kolda and Narwita were alive last we saw them, but the rest were mind controlled, killed, then raised." Dulae says quickly, the elation she felt about getting off the mountain disappearing.

"The amulet is a container for something very evil that likes to take over minds. It also can manifest as a giant pillar of darkness." Dulae glares at the amulet. "Its responsible for quite a lot of death, so I recommend anyone dealing with it be under a Protection from Evil spell." She then sighs. "And just for fun we picked up a cursed comb, which Silo thinks is an artifact of Norah."

I'm considering a second career as an exposition fairy.


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Lemartes wrote:

Aerial Evasion is level 3 so I can take it at level 6 no???

Therefore, I should be able to use the feat at level 9. Am I wrong???

Extra Wild Talent wrote:

Prerequisite(s): Kineticist level 6th.

Benefit(s): You gain a wild talent that’s at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wild talent you can currently use. You can select an infusion or a non-infusion wild talent, but not a blast or defense wild talent. If you have the expanded element class feature, you can select a wild talent from any of your elements that’s at least 2 levels lower than the highest-level wild talent from your primary element that you can currently use.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time, you must choose a different wild talent.

Unfortunately you can't take it as a feat at 9.

Aerial evasion is level 3, so you could take it at level 6 as a wild talent if Wings of Air weren't so good. But you need to be able to take 5th level talents (so be level 10) before you could take it as the feat, because its the Wild Talent that is two levels lower than the maximum, not the character level. Its really annoying.

However, Air Shroud is a level 1 talent, so you could take it at 7 or 9 with a feat and put aerial evasion into the 8th level talent slot.

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