Subterranean's page

Seconding the new HackMaster and HackMaster Basic. Seconding it real hard.

The system itself is a joy; it's set-up to be truly challenging and exciting as you get to savor the gritty hardships that low-level characters *should* experience while they struggle to make a name for themselves - and struggle to simply survive. The default setting is the Kingdoms of Kalamar, like griffonwing said, which has been wonderfully detailed through the years since 2nd Ed AD&D. The basic idea is a relatively realistic medieval world with a fair deal of classic fantasy and magic, but far from the point in other settings where Epic-Level named characters are already having all the fun and bumping into the PCs every week. There's no magic item shop on the next corner to pawn all the crappy +1 short swords those bandits had. Like griffonwing said above, even a low power magic item is a *treasure* to be truly grateful for. HackMaster is delightfully old-school in spirit. There's a good number of very well-written adventures available, and lots of older still-relevant modules and setting sourcebooks, too, at the Kenzer site (the Hacklopedia of Beasts is a gem). My group played HackMaster Basic when it came out, and I'm excited to give the new version's Player's Handbook some serious mileage.

Also, I should second the Midnight campaign setting that Rite Publishing mentioned above. If you're looking for a low-magic-item campaign to the point that magic is tyrannically outlawed and where the evil priests who dominate the subjugated masses can home-in on your rebel PC's +1 dagger and sacrifice you to their dark god for simply having it (or even a mundane one, for that matter), then Midnight would be right up your alley. I own the whole Midnight line, and it was a truly captivating setting, if a bit of a hard sell for players who like having something of a situational upper-hand.

Good luck finding the game you're looking for! :)

Maerimydra wrote:

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

I would personally LOVE to see a class that takes FULL advantage of the combat maneuver system. ...

Could this be possible with a Fighter archetype instead of a whole new class?

I highly doubt it, only for the fact that what I am imagining wouldn't have much use for pretty much any of the class abilities that a fighter gets. He would prefer to eschew armor training for sake of mobility, weapon training for the versatility to perform any given CM regardless of what any particular weapon is equipped for, and I don't see him being supernaturally brave for one reason or another. At that point all you have remaining of the original class is the armor/weapon proficiencies, HD, and BAB. All three of which could just as easily have come from a Ranger, Caviler, or Paladin.

Yeah, I think even weapon and armor training take a serious back seat to special maneuvers.

At higher levels (or with the right kind of tool), I'm imagining a Mass Bull Rush. What about using a grappled opponent as an AC bonus instead of the usual dex penalty. What about being able to throw a grappled smaller creature as a knock-back weapon? So many fun tricks could be thought up for this class and balanced appropriately.

I would personally LOVE to see a class that takes FULL advantage of the combat maneuver system. ...

Awesome, I've always wanted a class like that! A sort of combat controller who helps even the odds without needing to kill stuff outright and immediately. Grappling would make a good focus, too, among trips, disarms, and the rest.

I'd imagine this class would need a better skill selection and more points to improve versatility and competitiveness. Maybe even rogue-ish stuff like Sleight of Hand (for removing un-equipped weapons) and Disable Device (for quickly disabling stuff like saddles or wheels). Maybe that's reaching too far and could easily be accomplished with cross-classing to rogue.

Forcefully messing with the enemy's positioning, mobility, and equipment seems like an awesome niche for a martial support character. How demoralizing. Love it!

(On preview: Yeah, maneuver tricks! Run with it!)

I really like Anburaid's house rules on Stealth. They add more dimension and realism. Even though there's extra complexity and it almost seems like it's own game, that 'game' is something I'd love to add to my table given how much I love sneaky 1st-person video games.

I remember facing being complicated in 3.0, but the 'always alert in all directions' thing has never sat well with me.

Anburaid, would you consider granting 360-degree awareness as a standard action when a character is already moving?

Darkvision is such a fantastic advantage, regardless if you're using the official rules or not. I hate imagining running a stealth-based character without it.

Here's a question. How much vision-mode overlap is there with a creature with darkvision in a partially lit space. Can someone with darkvision see into shadows, or otherwise see the shadow itself? I'm imagining a situation where a derro is being stalked by a human in a torch-lit room with lots of shadows. Does the light screw up the darkvision entirely or can the derro plainly see the human in the shadow behind the pillar? I can imagine the human not being clear on that either, and the derro bluffing his un-awareness for an advantage if he can see into the shadow.

I might as well weigh-in on the topic since I popped in earlier with a slight derail. Forgive me for re-treading. All I've got to reference at the moment is the conditions page at D20PFSRD.

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy.

Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.

Seems pretty clear-cut. Sleeping and unconscious are included under Helpless, implying that there's a difference. Being unconscious appears to be an extreme state of helplessness. If it were my game, I'd rule against teleporting a sleeping target. I can easily understand a GM allowing it for whatever reason, though.

Subterranean wrote:

Maybe we simply need to clarify what "willing" means.

It seems to me that unless you're aware that a person is casting a spell on you, and/or you want it to happen, you aren't a willing target.

This blatantly contradicts the rules which are both quite explicit on the subject on unconscious characters being willing and on what being willing actually does.

It also creates hopeless positions and death spirals. If you are only willing if you're conscious and aware of the spell being cast on you, then combat healing becomes essentially worthless, and it's almost impossible to have a recurring villain.

Ok, can of worms it is. I was hoping for magic bullet since this one's so sticky at the moment. I guess we wait while Paizo chews on this one.

Maybe we simply need to clarify what "willing" means.

It seems to me that unless you're aware that a person is casting a spell on you, and/or you want it to happen, you aren't a willing target.

Awareness and consent are the key points here.

Let's hash it out. We could safely assume that a person would give blanket consent to a trusted friend to cast spells on them. I'd like to assume that an enemy doesn't have your consent to manipulate you magically in any way, unless you've been sufficiently enchanted by them. The question of being asleep/unconscious is a different issue at that point, and I'd guess it'd still be tricky (so I won't go there now).

Is this a can of worms?

I like the 'blanket consent to allies' idea, but let's poke at it. Say an ally teleports you out of a battle in your best interest when you'd rather stay and fight against all odds. Or if a spellcaster deceives you into thinking he was casting a different spell? Without making Spellcraft and Sense Motive checks, how would you be aware that it was being attempted? Does the party wizard need to explain his intentions and ask everyone's permission before teleporting the group out of harm's way? It could make things interesting, to say the least.

I feel like I'm looking under a rock we're not supposed to disturb.

Edit: Looks like I missed the last few posts and you guys were already poking around here. That's what I get for letting my inspired urge to share a thought override my duty to totally finish reading the thread. In my defense, it's been a long one and got a little circular for a while there. I'm so glad this community has these sorts of discussions, and that it seems to be civil enough. I think I'll stick around.