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I was looking at something on the internet, to redo the two weapon fighting system feats, then I found 2 or 3 interesting alternative.

All of those where copied in a word document. Don't remember exactly where I got this, but reading it again... when not sleepy, gave me pause. Some stuff in here is really interesting.

Tell me what you think about this. It is called "Fighting with style".

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The Great Fighting Style Rebalancing

So I did up (and posted) most of this a few years back, as an attempt to balance the weapon styles. I've been using/tweaking them on and off since then, and figured it's about time to repost these with the various changes. Since the original version, there's been a number of updates cleaning up most of the feats, and removing ones that didn't work out. Additionally a new section is being added for Combat Maneuvers, which got a rework similar to the Fighting Styles.

The goal here is to consolidate the most common fighting styles to a 2-3 feat chain, and get the various styles more balanced against each other. Basically at level 1 you should be good at your fighting style and have everything that is necessary to do your job. By level 6, you should be done with it, and be a master of that style. Many styles may be combined together synergistically. For example, the Two Handed Weapon style is entirely compatible with the Ranged Weapon style, the Reach Weapon style, or even the Shield weapon style. Characters should be able to mix and match these to get some interesting results.

Each combat maneuver gets a two-feat chain similar to the fighting styles, taking the maneuver from a minor thing you might want to try in a niche situation to a major part of your reportoire. The goal with these is to hit the kind of utility that Dungeoncrasher+Knockback gets out of Bullrush. I don't think I'm quite there yet, but I tried and am looking for a feedback on that area in particular.

Also just to say it up front, all [Maneuver] and [Style] feats are available as Fighter bonus feats.

Systemic Changes

The first part of rebalancing the weapon styles means tearing down some of the foundations of the styles from 3.5. This involves some changes to how some of the core mechanics work. The main goal of these changes is reducing feat taxes placed upon a lot of styles.

TWFing Change: Fighting with Two Weapons is now treated as a Martial Weapon Proficiency. If you have a proficiency with two weapon fighting, you may attack with both weapons with a -4 penalty (-2 if the offhand weapon is light), as a full attack action. As a part of a full attack you may make an additional offhand attack for every main hand attack from base attack bonus. If you lack the proficiency, you take an additional -4 penalty to all attacks. In addition to classes with martial weapon proficiency, Rogues have this proficiency for free.

THFing Change: Wielding a weapon with two hands gains you no special benefits unless you take a feat that increases the benefits of having a second hand on the weapon. Power Attack loses its default bonus damage for having a two hander

Ranged Combat Change: The penalty for firing into melee no longer exists. The penalty for doing so is accurately enough modeled by the cover rules, having both is an unnecessary feat tax. Also, the majority of the Archery feats are either feats that don't need to be archery only (Rapidshot, Manyshot), already covered by non-range specific feats (Spring Attack/Shot on The Run), or not particularly useful (when's the last time you needed to snipe someone from half a mile away with Far Shot?). So basically all feats currently targetted towards range cease to exist, and are either left to rot, replaced by the feats in this topic, or should be adapted to work with both melee and range.

Shield Change: The bashing property no longer exists, being rolled into Shield Bash Mastery, to reduce reliance on a specific magic item to deal decent damage with your shield. The Animated Property also no longer exists.

Combat Maneuver Change:: Bullrush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, and Trip no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when used without a feat. Additionally, Size Modifiers for combat maneuvers are 2/4/8/16 (ie double the normal size modifier), rather than +4 per size category.

Light/Finessible Weapon Change: Weapon Finesse no longer exists as a feat. If you are wielding a weapon that is light, or has the finessible property, then you may opt to use your strength or dexterity modifier to attack, whichever is higher.

Unarmed Combat Change: Unarmed Combat is considered a simple weapon proficiency, that is now granted to Monks, Swordsages, and all characters who have proficiency in all simple weapons. Having proficiency in unarmed combat means that you do not provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed attack, and you do not take the non-proficiency penalty to attack rolls.

Power Attack: Is no longer a feat, and is instead a standard combat option, much like fighting defensively.

Fighting Defensively: Now works like Combat Expertise+Improved Combat Expertise. Combat Expertise is no longer a feat. Fighting Defensively additionally now doubles a shield bonus to AC when taking a penalty to hit of at least -3.

Total Defense: No longer prevents you from taking AoOs. Provides benefits of Fighting Defensively as though you took a penalty equal to BAB, and any miss chance you possess forces enemies to roll twice and take the worse result. All AoO attacks are made at a -5 penalty to hit.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Proficiency with two-weapon fighting
Benefit: Any time you make a single attack (such as a standard action attack, an attack of opportunity, or a charge), you may attack with both of your weapons. Additionally, any bonus attacks you gain from sources other than base attack bonus (such as Haste, or Flurry) on a full attack now also grant an offhand attack.

Two-Weapon Rend [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+3
Benefit: You may add your full strength modifier to offhand damage. When you deal damage with both of your weapons to a target on the same turn, you automatically deal extra damage as if you hit with your offhand weapon, with damage bonuses from attribute doubled. You may deal damage with this feat once per target per round. Additionally, your penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand and offhand lessens by 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess (the penalty cannot be reduced below 0).

Two-Weapon Defense [Style] [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, BAB+6
Benefit: You gain a +2 shield bonus to armor class while wielding a weapon in each hand. Additionally, while fighting defensively with a penalty of at least -3 to-hit, if an opponent's attack misses, you may make a free attack with your offhand weapon against the opponent. This attack may not be used for any special maneuvers, but does not count as an attack of opportunity.

Two Handed Fighting
Improved Two-Handed Fighting [Style]
Prerequisite: Str 13, proficiency with a weapon that may be held in two hands.
Benefit: While wielding a weapon with both hands, your damage bonus from strength is increased by 50%. Additionally, if you have the Power Attack feat and this feat, while wielding a two handed weapon your damage bonus from power attack is doubled.

Mighty Blows [Style]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Handed Fighting, BAB+3
Benefit: While wielding a two handed weapon, your base weapon damage is increased as if you were one size category larger, plus an additional size category if your BAB is above +10. Additionally, your strength modifier to damage with two handed weapons is increased by another 50% (so your strength bonus to damage is now doubled).
Special: Your weapon's effective size may not exceed colossal.

Sweeping Strikes [Style]
Prerequisite: Improved Two-Handed Fighting, BAB+6
Benefit: While wielding a two-handed weapon, for each melee attack made, you can choose 2 squares threatened that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. This ability may be used on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.

One Weapon Fighting
Einhander [Style]
Benefit: When attacking with a one handed weapon held in one hand, and no other weapons, you gain +2 to hit and and +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. Additionally, you gain a bonus to damage equal to your dexterity modifier. You also gain a +4 bonus to Feint, Disarm, and Trip attempts made while wielding a one handed weapon in one hand.

Parry and Riposte [Style]
Prerequisite: Einhander, BAB+3
Benefit: When fighting defensively with at least a -3 penalty to hit, and an enemy misses an attack against your AC by at least 5 points, you can sacrifice one of your opportunity attacks for the round, and choose to either use a combat maneuver against the opponent, or deal damage to them as though you hit them with your weapon.

Open Hand Mastery [Style]
Prerequisite: Einhander, BAB+6
Benefit: When you use Power Attack with a one handed weapon in one hand, you can gain +1d6 damage for every 2 points of BAB sacrificed.

Special: If your offhand is left empty (in addition to simply not being used to attack), your bonuses from Einhander are increased to +4, and your AC bonus from Einhander is doubled when fighting defensively with at least a -3 penalty to hit.

Defensive Shield Use
Shield Fighter [Style]
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a shield
Benefit: While wearing a shield, you increase your shield bonus to AC by 1, and your shield bonus applies to your Touch AC, Reflex Saves, and when defending against combat maneuvers. Additionally, while fighting defensively with at least a -3 penalty to hit, you gain a miss chance equal to 5% per point of shield bonus to AC you possess (not counting the doubling from fighting defensively. So a Figher with this feat and a +5 Heavy Shield has a +8 shield bonus to AC, granting 40% miss chance).

Warder [Style]
Prerequisite: Shield Fighter, BAB+3
Benefit: While wielding a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, but not attacking with the shield, you gain soft cover, and can treat squares you threaten as granting soft cover to allies. When you fight defensively with a penalty of at least -3, you can choose to block line of effect to squares directly behind you, plus an extra 5 feet around you per 8 points of base attack bonus. This does not prevent spells from affecting you. (So at BAB+16, you can block line of effect through your square, and up to 10ft around you).

Additionally, any ally adjacent to you gains your shield bonus to armor class.

Ranged Combat
Precise Shot [Style]
Prerequisites: Dex 13
Benefit: You may designate one ally as a free action, you may ignore this ally when determining if a target has soft cover relative to you. You additionally may add your dexterity modifier to damage rolls while using a ranged weapon within 1 range increment of your target.

Missile Mastery[Style]
Prerequisites: Precise Shot, BAB+3
Benefit: You may use combat maneuvers (such as disarm, grapple, and trip) with a ranged weapon against targets within one range increment, though you take a -4 penalty to the check.

Sniper [Style]
Prerequisites: Precise Shot, BAB+6
Benefit: You may use all precision damage, as well as your dexterity modifier to damage, at any range. The range increment for any weapon you wield is doubled, and penalties for firing weapons at farther range increments are reduced to -1 per range increment.

Reach Weapons
Reach Weapon Specialist [Style]
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13
Benefit: You are capable of striking opponents adjacent to you with any reach weapon that you hold. Additionally, while wielding a reach weapon, you may take additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to 1/4th your base attack bonus, plus your dexterity modifier.
Special: This feat may be used in place of Combat Reflexes to meet the prerequisites to qualify for other feats or prestige classes. The benefits of this feat and Combat Reflexes do not stack.

Harrier [Style]
Prerequisite: Reach Weapon Specialist, BAB+6
Benefit: Your reach is increased by 5 feet. Additionally, all enemies within your reach take a penalty equal to 1/4th your base attack bonus to attack rolls, saving throw DCs, and twice that amount as a penalty to skill checks.

Mounted Combat
Mounted Combat[Style]
Prerequisite: Ride 4 ranks
Benefit: You can take 10 on ride checks, even when rushed or threatened. When your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent’s attack roll. Finally, all penalties for using ranged weapons while mounted are reduced by 2 points.

Improved Mounted Combat[Style]
Prerequisite: Mounted Combat
Benefit: While mounted, you can make a DC20 Ride check as a move action to treat the creature you are riding as though it has access to one [Maneuver] Feat that you possess. You may share one additional [Maneuver] feat for every 10 points you beat the DC by.

The mount retains feats shared in this way for 5 minutes, and the mount may only use the feats while you are riding it. You may not attempt to share feats with your mount more often than once every 5 minutes.


Another system i've seen, wich was looking good, I must say, was something like this:

1 roll vs AC.
If you hit, you deliver main hand damage.
If you hit by an X margin, you deliver both main and off-hand damage.

The idea was that in real life, having two weapon, wich was more usualy a dueling style, does not double your attacks. It can with the right training however, grant you a better offensive, and a better defense, compared to a single weapon.

Also, it reduce the number of roll like I want to acheive.

Getting rid of multiple attacks cause too many problem for me. But as it is, no one in my groups like the Two weapon fighting mechanics either. Searching on the internet has found me a bazillion fan-made two weapon fighting remakes. Thing is, i want to change it, but I do not want to screw things up.


Well, you make some good points there.

Another system I saw was simply to roll once.

If you hit, you deliver the damage with one weapon.
If you hit by beating the AC by some margin, you hit with both weapons, rolling 2 separete times for damage.

In this system however, fighting with 2 weapons makes you more agressive, wich make sense since this style in the book is about offense, and gave you some bonus to your attack.


Well, rapidly, i saw this.

Making one roll for 2 weapon attack, is a good thing if you hit, cause you deliver both weapon damage.

Missing is bad, since both weapon miss.

However, rolling more dice is not always a good thing... so making combat a little shorter might not be a bad thing. However, screwing the balance of the game might be a problem...

Does it screw the balance ? Thats a good question tho...


I've seen some people complaining about the reality that two weapon fighting was very feat intensive, for diminishing returns. Yes, it is great for rogues and sneak attacks, but you know, for a great fighter, its a suboptimal style.

Then, I saw numerous ppl on different forums talking about the idea to balance things out.

One way was to make two weapon fighting a single roll.

Attacking with a great axe = one roll. Damage is 1d12+ 1 and a half Str modifier.

Attacking with two short sword = one roll. Damage is 2d6+ 1 and a half Str modifier.

Of course, the feats are reworked and balanced according to the new system, and they are less numerous.

I will not go under the hood too much to explain everything, but I was just wondering if someone around here has already tried a system similar to that ? If yes, what do you think of it ? Why ? And what would be a good alternative to the feats presented in the book, for fighting with two weapons ?

Thank you guys.


Yeah, thats how I read the rules too.

However, some archetype loose favored enemy, or favored terrain, and in the errata on the side, it is written that for the purpose of X power, spells, or ability, the new feature that replace it, is still considered to be the old one.

Ex: "How does a ranger with the Infiltrator archetype, which causes him to lose his favored terrain class feature, use his camouflage and hide in plain sight class features?"

Errata: "A ranger with the Infiltrator archetype can use the camouflage and hide in plain sight class features whenever he is using his adaptation class feature, regardless of the terrain he is in."

Also... if a new feature would replace some standard feature... Ex: Favored enemy is replace by Ranger's focus. And they say in the ranger's focus description, that this ability replace favored enemy, and nothing else, how can I be sure it is also made to replace something else like master hunter at later level ?

To me, even if no errata on that one was made, it may simply sounds like they missed it. However, Im sure this question was asked already.


The guide gets ranger's focus in place of favored ennemy. Instead of working on a lot of creature, it works differently, on a specific target of your choice. The question is this: Does any spell that works/use the favored enemy ability still work with ranger's focus ?

The normal ranger gets Master Hunter at level 20. The ability works only vs your favored enemies. However, ranger's focus is supposed to replace favored enemy only... not favored enemy and also making you loose some spells, and in that case, the ability of Master hunter... so the question is: Can the guide use Master Hunter vs a the target of his ranger's focus ?

Last: Imaginve Ranger's focus +10. The ranger gets +10 to hit and to damage. He use at the same time his Inspired moment, that grants many things, but in the list, we have +4 to AC, and +4 to attack in bonus. If Ranger's focus and Inspired moment are both up at the same time... the total bonus are what ? Do they stack ?

Thanks.


wow
Gamers-initiative have some good stuff !!!!

First time I ever hear about that... phew

Playing dnd 4th edition for so long... had made me miss some cool stuff.

Those class are really reworked... the ranger is really a new one...

I was thinking... are those classes there compatible in term of power to the actual pathfinder one ? I mean, I just need a new ranger, not 56 rework classes, but I want to keep a sence of balance.

What do you think ?

By the way, thanks alot for those answers, it helped me so far, so feel free to add more stuff.

Thanks again.


Ok, I like the concept of the ranger.

Sadly, to some people, Aragorn is the reference, while to other, Drizzt is.

What I mean is that there are many alternative ranger class out there, and some of them are quite nice actually.

However, what is my biggest trouble actually with the pathfinder ranger, is the favored foe concept.

I won't tell you why I dislike it cause it would be too long, but I dislike it, and i'm looking for an alternative to that.

By what should I replace that Favored foe ?

It is not always in play, but when it is, at level 15 its still +8 to both hit and damage, in addition to what the quarry ability might give you, so its a killer. What would be a good replacement for that ???

Also, A quarry ability like what dnd 4e propose might sounds good, but what would be a perfect conversion for pathfinder ?

Finaly, if you feel you have the perfect variant of the ranger class, feel free to post it here. It would be great. Thanks.