Saern's page

Hello again, everyone. I used to be a regular here a looooong time ago, starting back when Paizo was still publishing Dungeon (in print!) during the 3.5 days. I was just in high school, learning to be a netizen by posting in these boards, right when Age of Worms came out. As I was moving off to college and had less time for gaming or posting, WotC was canceling Paizo's contract so they could chase digital subscriptions for an online publication (how did that work out?), and Paizo was using the OGL to launch Pathfinder. Years later, life got more stable, I got a new gaming group, but we played 5e.

Now, here we are again, WotC back to its old bad habits, launching a divisive new "edition" (???), still chasing online subscription revenue, splitting the community, and I find myself turning back to Paizo. Everything feels like it's coming full-circle. But I thought I'd say hi, and see if anyone is still around from a long time ago.

To the list of characters who portray CN well, I would like to add Jamie Lannister from A Song of Ice and Fire. Jamie is known for his reckless, hasty, and impulsive actions. He isn't a moral monster like Gregor Clegane or Joffrey (both of whom I would peg as CE), but he is also capable of unquestionably "non-good" acts; such as throwing Brandon Stark, a child, out of a window, actually to his maiming but presumably to his death, to cover-up Jamie's own illicit acts with his sister (see below).

At the same time, Jamie demonstrates the roundness of his character through his unwavering loyalty to his family. He even honors the family code, "A Lannister always pays his debts." Rather than disqualifying him from CN, I would argue this demonstrates a very believable way in which a CN character may occasionally act "Lawful." Even within the bounds of that family loyalty, Jamie demonstrates Chaotic attitudes. He defies the authority of his father, Lord Tywin, (as well as the laws of the land and code of every known religion) by carrying on a long-term incestuous love affair with his sister; and eventually defies his father again

Here's something I've never understood: First, there are a lot of leaders of nations that are evil (though generally lawful Evil). Second, that many monsters are both common, humanoid, and Lawful, yet for some reason they get no nation, while, say, the elves (Chaotic)and the halflings (who tend to be thieves)do. How does this make sense? Why wouldn't a hobgoblin have a nation that's every bit as civilized as one belonging to humans or dwarves? Why should kobolds be reduced to wimpy tribes, prone to infighting? After all, Lawful Evil people may/will try to cease power (humans do it all the time)but they won't fight amongst each other for who is get big shiny rock.

Not to mention, why are goblins depicted as total morons in Pathfinder, but still have 10 Int? Just wanted to complain about that while I'm ranting.

It's not just Pathfinder that treats goblins as idiots. D&D has traditionally related to the little green guys as a race of simpletons, apparently only because they're physically weak. Many, including myself, found Pathfinder's re-treatment of them, where at least they have personality, to be an improvement. Though truthfully, the Pathfinder depiction seems to indicate goblins should at least be chaotic; and their behavior indicates more of a Wisdom penalty to me than anything else. Of course, the stats don't back this up.

The larger problem is one I've dwelt on before, as well. It's part of the traditional cliche culture which makes my stomach churn when looking over most traditional D&D settings. They make almost no sense. It's not that there is so much a human-centric view, although that definitely exists (but I have no problem with it and think may settings would be better off with only humans, perhaps broken into ethnic groups). There's a Tolkien-centric view. Some people may debate me on that, but can any other explanation so easily address why everything is in the hands of humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings (Tolkien's civilized races) while every other race, no matter how numerous they are as a race or how many other races their are, get nothing? Even gnomes get no lands traditionally, and they're in the PHB. But, they weren't in Tolkien.

I love Tolkien to death. He's one of my personal heroes, and I can't help but get wrapped up in Middle Earth on a regular basis. But what works for one setting does not necessarily work for all. I agree, it's a fallacy and a flaw with a lot of common D&D.

So there's my thoughts on why it exists. What have I done about it? Changed it. One of my long-running projects is to review every culture-bearing race in my setting (the number of which I consciously limit) and revise them so that they actually have a personality and make a bit of sense. (See spoiler below)

The goblin-kin (I hate the term "goblinoid") are one of the major forces of the world, a constant threat to the other races and their lands. Hobgoblins are a race of mercenaries, but also engage in campaigns on their own. It's similar to the traditional D&D image of the orc, swelling in population until they have to spill forth over the other lands to reduce their numbers. Except hobgoblins are disciplined, orderly, and are playing to gain territory and carve lasting states. They are very much like the historical Spartans, since the Spartans are such a perfect model for them.

Kobolds like tunnels and such, and thus aren't usually a problem for human or elven kingdoms. Dwarves, on the other hand, are always threatened with the loss of their clanholds to such threats (and actually have lost far more than one or two such holds to the little guys).

How do people do this? I've never really had a clear mental image in my head of how spell resistance "looks" when it comes into play. Does the spell function as normal, but the creature just isn't effected (emerges from the conflagration of a fireball unexplainably unsinged), or is there some kind of lightshow that goes off, as is typically assumed for any effect dealing with magic in the modern game (or modern splatbook, at least)? I'm a very visual person and have trouble really getting into the game if I can't conjure a mental image of an action or effect, and spell resistance has therefore always bothered me because of the utter lack of fluff or description about it anywhere.

So at the start of this past summer, I had the immense pleasure of establishing a new playgroup after not having one for almost two years. Only one member of the old play group is in this new one, and everyone else at the table was absolutely new to D&D, and tabletop RPGs in general for that matter. They all liked fantasy and/or had experience with a variety of fantasy video games, and have come to love playing D&D.

But they won't learn the damn rules! One of them barely (and I stress barely) knows how to make an attack role. None of them are very clear on the difference between a skill and a feat, if they have any clue at all. Don't even ask them what the difference between a light and a one-handed weapon is, or a simple vs. an exotic weapon, or what armor check penalty does. We've been playing for months now. I've variously suggested, begged, and outright stated that, if they plan to continue playing D&D, they need to both acquire a copy of the 3.5e PHB and read it. To date, none have.

Now, my friend and I are living, breathing, walking encyclopedias of D&D 3.5 knowledge. Both of us are more than happy to continue dispensing said knowledge on their behalf indefinitely... but they don't even understand it when we do, let alone know enough to ask the right questions of us. We've already had several new characters created, and each time, I or my friend end up making the character for the player, and the player has no real concept what most of the stuff on the sheet means or what he or she is capable of. My friend and I might as well make our own characters and say, "Here, play this."

In combat, anything outside a basic attack roll creates utter confusion. The sorcerer's player has learned a little bit about what casting a spell entails, and the barbarian's player kinda knows how to work Power Attack. The druid is totally lost when it comes to preparing her spells, when she does it, and how; particularly if I suggest changing her prepared spell list for an upcoming adventure when, say, entangle isn't likely to be very useful (such as going underground with no plant life).

Anytime one of these non-routine situations arise, it falls to myself or my friend to tell them what we would do (i.e., what they should do), and they do it, making the rolls we tell them to and accepting their success or failure without any understanding of what just happened. It's like we're playing their characters for them.

I know it takes people a while to learn the game, but again, we've been playing for months now. They aren't showing any signs of progress. If it was a single player, that would be different, but it's basically the whole group.

Has anyone else here ever been in a similar circumstance? What can I do to help them learn the rules? They all really do love the game, but seem to have no desire to actually get and read the PHB. I can understand them not having the time; we're all college students and the fall semester has just begun. I know most of them worked over the summer, but they still had more time than they do now and yet still didin't get the books. I'm not asking them to become experts, but if they could at least understand what the difference between a free and a full-round action is, that would be supertastic. Ten minutes of the PHB a day would do wonders, and with the release of 4e, 3.5 books have never been cheaper!

So, suggestions, thoughts?

I also wish that Dire didn't have to mean "has bones on the outside and horns everywhere" but thats for another day.

Ugh. I have the same gripe. Who exactly designed that brilliant policy? The picture of the dire elk in the MMII makes it looks like some type of cancerous growth.

"Oh no, we're being attacked by a dire elk!"

"No, man, it's cool. That tumor's about three seconds from shutting down its brain."

This isn't going to be world shattering. I've been rather irritated by ability checks for some time now. I feel the mechanic is rather poorly thought out. The main problem seems to be that the game assumes all checks vs. DCs use the same scale, but the modifiers are so radically different between ability checks and everything else.

Let's examine a DC 20 example. First, let's assume a DC 20 skill check. Which skill doesn't matter, it could be Tumble, Disable Device, Knowledge (local), Concentration, whatever. In order to have a 50% chance of success, a character must have a +9 modifier (11 + 9 = 20, so a 10 or lower fails, which equates to a 50% chance). A PC can have that many ranks in the skill by 6th level, and likely has a modifier of +9 by 4th level in their key skills.

Now let's examine a DC 20 ability check; again, the kind doesn't matter. Once again, a character must have a +9 to have a 50% chance of success, but they are only rolling with their unmodified ability bonus. That requires a 28 in the score before the character is likely to succeed. A 28 in an ability score is virtually as high as a PC is ever going to see one of their scores. So, this paragon of some human attribute has only a 50% chance to succeed on something which is supposedly of the same difficulty as a task a 4th-6th level character could achieve with the same chance of failure?

That hardly seems right.

Look at the example on page 33 of the DMG, under ability checks. It states that it's a DC 17 Strength check to pry the lid off a jammed container! The circus freak strong man with 18 Strength couldn't take 10 and hit that. Sure, he could take 20, but then, what's the point of having that tremendous strength? A person with 6 Strength could also take 20 and hit that. Not to mention, the 18 Strength guy would be pulling at the thing for perhaps upwards of 2 minutes, assuming a standard action to perform the check. Once again, that seems wrong.

So, that's what's been annoying me. For a while I decided that what needed to be done was effectively double the unmodified bonus (ability score - 10 = modifier, so a 16 would grant you a +6 modifier, and a 7 is a -3). But that just seems clunky and awkward, and flies in the face of having those nice ability bonus progressions that are so integral to 3.x D&D. Plus, it really mucks with things like trip attempts.

Of course, the simpler and easier solution is to realize that the DCs need to have their own scale. That still bugs me, because it means that the RAW's system is poorly designed when it comes to this, and thus it should have a different mechanic all together. But that's more trouble than it's worth.

So, then it comes to making this new scale. I think DC 10 should remain the base- it has a lot of precedence, and anyone could just take 10 on everyday tasks, and like in real life, when you get rushed you might screw up (roll low).

Beyond that, I'm not sure. I think that a +4 bonus for every size category above Medium, and a -4 for every one below, is a good rule with Strength checks. Otherwise, the issue I'm running into is wondering how to make the abilities scale properly, and make sure that the guy with 18 Strength has a real advantage in ability checks over the guy with 6 (which I don't believe currently exists, or at least is as pronounced as it should be).

Again, this isn't world shattering, but it's really been bugging me. So, I look here for the thoughts of other Paizonians.

I'll trust there was some form of infinite wisdom at work when my previous post got eaten, because if there isn't, I'm gonna be pissed.

Anyway, I really like what has been said here so far. I like all of these ideas and see how they are not mutually exclusive and can be woven together to make a diverse portrait of the divine with varying origins for all the characters. I really like the Greyhawk deities, but I was thinking that they may not really fit with the theme of Saern. However, the ideas on this thread have given me some inspiration as to how I can redescribe them to fit with the world's theme better.

I've also been mulling over possible in-character views regarding arcane magic from a practicioner's standing.

At low levels, one simply learns basic and contemporary procedures; hand motions, words, and materials that can be combined in several ways to produce various effects. The magician has no real concept of the underlying principals or forces, simply knowing that saying "bippity boppity boop" and waving his hand makes a light show.

At mid levels, the practicioner begins to delve into more ancient, fundamental, and powerful magical practices, studying the philosophies and invocations of the high elves and other magical cultures.

Beyond this, the mage advances to understanding some of the intrinsic forces behind these theories and thus how they relate to each other and can be mixed and manipulated for even more dramatic, unique, and powerful effects.

Finally, one advances to the stage of the archmage, where one understands, in varying degrees, the actual nature of the energies and forces behind these arcane procedures. No longer does one simply wave a hand and expect a result, but now one understands why waving the hand and saying the words does what it does. You are now able to create new words and gestures and harness the full power of magic, taking it from its primordial state and shaping it all the way to the structured nature of a stable spell, all done according to your own wishes and designs.

Also, a possible view of components could be as follows.

All materials have chemical and physical properties, and thus also have magical properties. These can be used to enhance, damper, bring forth, or nulify certain effects when spellcasting.

Following this thought, one can then look at runes. Just as architects use odd shapes and designs for their various physical attributes, so to do certain shapes have magical potencies that can be utilized by spellcasters. Somatic components follow this rule to a lesser degree, since one essentially traces the rune in the air or makes one's hand assume the shape of a rune to benefit from its magical properties (though this is much weaker than actually making a permanent rune in stone or metal or whathaveyou).

Finally, one can then see how certain sounds would have magical properties to them. The actual words mean nothing, and aren't words so much as they are a series of audiological runes, "shapes" of sound that also bring with them magical properties. When these various components are all mixed together, the result are various magical forces being combined in the conduit of the mage's body to release a specific effect of spellcasting.

Just some rambling views.

I have one player who LOVES craft (trapmaking) and another who LOVES craft (poison)- and cannot abide the length of time it takes to make these things, or anything for that matter, in D&D, which is why I generally, like so many others, just throw the rules aside sometimes and adjudicate time and costs.

I can deal with the traps we have no concept of how to make taking forever (flooding rooms, magic runes, etc.), but a 20-foot hole isn't that difficult to make, or even cover and hide fairly well.

I think I'm going to use formula in whic the DC is 10 + CR, and craft time takes 10xCR minutes, within certain parameters. Similar rules should probably be used with all craft skills.

Well, as a priest of Vecna, he'd want to conceal his face, not because of how it looks, but to mantain his secrecy. There was talk in another post about the missing Hieronean priest mentioned in the Diamond Lake backdrop; it would be interesting if either the Faceless One or Theldrick was that missing cleric.

There was also talk in several threads about the Faceless One being too interesting to die in fight without the party ever encountering him before or afterwards. Right from the start, they should be meeting strange people (Hextorites), and getting Spot checks at night to see dark shapes (Kenku) running around, telling them that something is afoot. As they make a name for themselves, perhaps they're even catching glimpses of the Faceless One from alleys and such, but he always disappears before they can confront him. As they make their way through the Labyrinth, they can here him speeking to them, sort of like a magic PA system, mocking them and such.

Finally, I'm slipping him a potion of Gaseous Form and letting him escape to become a recurring villain. Eventually, many adventures in the future, they might catch up to him and unmask him. I've always liked Vecna as a villain-deity, and the Faceless One is one of the most unique characters I've ever seen. He needs to be important.

Imagine this scene: The party has him beaten, but suddenly he begins to cackle and disolve into a mist. Now, rather than the party looting at their sweet convenience and then stumbling onto the Ebon Aspect, they chase the gaseous wizard out into the main hall. He's got quite lead on them, however, and they arrive just in time to see him summoning forth the Ebon Aspect. As it rises from the murky depths, he calls out a final quip and dissappears again. He'll advance in level with them and come back to be a thorn in their side again and again.