Since this applies to multiple sections of the playtest document as well as things from the GM and player side I decided to post it in the general discussion rather than in any of the specific sections
I was trying to figure out how nonlethal and lethal unarmed attacks worked as well as how easy it is to threaten with your feet when your hands are occupied. I'll quote some of the rules in spoilers to make them easily available.
Lets start with what unarmed attacks are
Unarmed attacks pag 178:
You can Strike with your fist or another body part, calculating your attack and damage rolls in the same way you would with a weapon. This counts as a simple weapon, so almost all characters start out trained in unarmed attacks. Use the statistics for a fist even if you’re kicking, kneeing, or attacking with another part of your body. Some ancestry feats, class features, class feats, and spells give access to special, more powerful unarmed attacks.
Now keep in mind that the default fist is 1d4, brawling group, Agile, finessable, nonlethal and unarmed. And you use this for all your unarmed strikes (headbut, kicks, elbow, ect)
All the Barbarian animal totem weapons do NOT have the nonlethal trait and specify natural weapons. (claws, antelers, ect)
All the Monk's special unarmed attacks DO carry the nonlethal trait, and generally do not specify limbs.
What does the nonlethal tag mean?
Nonlethal Attacks Pag 295:
You can make a nonlethal attack in an effort to knock
someone out instead of killing them (see Getting Knocked Out on page 295). Weapons with the nonlethal trait
(including fists) do this automatically. If you’re making a nonlethal attack with a weapon that doesn’t have the nonlethal trait, calculate your attack roll’s result as if you were untrained with the weapon. Likewise, you can attempt lethal attacks with a weapon that has the nonlethal feature, also calculating your attack roll’s result as though you were untrained.
Monks get Powerful fist to allow them to hit lethally with non lethal unarmed attacks.
powerful fist pag 97:
When striking with your fist, you deal 1d6 damage instead of 1d4. You use your normal proficiency when making a lethal attack with a nonlethal unarmed attack.
But fighters and other classes get no such thing. Since there is no feat to pick, does that mean that any character that wants to fight with his body is expected to get monk and multiclass into something else or get stuck taking a -2 to -5 penalty on their unarmed lethal attacks?
And if you need to treat them as untrained does that mean you cannot use the brawling critical weapon effect if you fight lethally with the penalty?
Then there is the question of flanking with your mere existence
flanking pag 313-314:
When you and an ally are on opposite sides of an enemy, you’re flanking that enemy. While the enemy is flanked, it is flat-footed (taking a –2 circumstance penalty to AC) to the creatures who are flanking it. To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposites sides or opposite corners of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space to the center of your ally’s space must pass through either opposite sides or opposite corners of the enemy’s space. Both you and the ally have to be threatening that enemy: this means you both must be wielding weapons or ready to make unarmed attacks and not under any effects that prevent you from making attacks. If you have reach, you determine whether you are flanking creatures out to the distance of your reach because you threaten all of those squares.
Since you always have your feet with you, and they are treated as simple weapons. Does that mean that you are always threatening? (even with occupied hands)
And if not, that exactly does this mean?
Quote:
or ready to make unarmed attacks
mean?
I have seen people raise some of these issues on the forum, but not the multiclassing requirement for unarmed combatants or the always flanking.
I'v been going over the skill section and talking with my group about how much secret rolling we are going to do. I noticed that when trying to remain undetected or hiding an object using stealth, making a Forgery using Society or using Deception to lie the rolls are secret.
But not when trying to Steal or Palm and object it the roll is made open.
Why are these not secret as well? The like with the other secret rolls above, the player will notice the observers reacting when he fails his check, but the player can also be lulled into a false sense of security when the observers pretend to ignore it or run along with it.
So I got into a little spat with one of my players regarding climbing up a 15 ft wall. So He has 30 ft movement and takes a -5 for fast climbing and gets a 22 on a DC 15 wall. So he climbs up 15 ft. Pretty straight forward.
I ask for a second check to pull himself up and move. He argues he has cleared the wall because he has "climbed 15 ft". He considers himself as occupying the first vertical square and starts moving from there (top of his hands) and i consider him occupying the ground and needing to move up the first 5 ft of the wall (starting from the feet).
What is the correct reasoning?
I hope this doesn't become as lengthy as the 'distanced jumped' discussion...
So I was trying to figure out if my Thug(rog)/Swashbuckler should go down a Intimidate or a Feinting route and I stumbled on this little interaction.
Cordugon smash:
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Intimidate 6 ranks.
Benefit: When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
with
Enforcer:
Prerequisites: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
So If I power attack with a sap, it should trigger two separate free intimidate checks. One for doing extra damage from the power attack and one from doing nonlethal damage from using a sap. This is correct, right?
And then a further interaction from Thug
Frightening (Ex):
Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.
This that seems pretty clear with Cordugon smash. But does this also mean that if i succeed a intimidate check from enforcer and do 4 nonlethal damage (trivial when using PA)
- Do I shaken the opponent for 4+1 round from Thug? and/or
- Do I frighten the target for 1 round because of Thug?
So during a game i was about to get charged by the big baddy, if he hits me i'd die, so i thought i'd be cleaver to save my skin. I had a reach advantage over it (long arm and it didn't know, or it didn't care), so i readied to bullrush the baddy when he got into range. I only succeed in bullrushing him (5ft) because he take a penalty from charging.
So now what happens to the charge? Is it wasted because it is interrupted, or does the baddy simply continue it's movement and wreck my day?
I can understand a trip would interrupt a charge because it forces the target to go prone and spend a move standing up (and be locked in place because it was unable to 5ft step after already moving). But how does this work with readied actions and forced movement?
Some easy examples might be a flowing monk readying a reposition with a reach weapon, or a Druid of Gozreh readying a bullrush/drag with a surge (Su) when an enemy comes within 10ft of your allies, or a Undine with hydraulic maneuvers doing the same with a bullrush/disarm/trip with a hydraulic push ?
And how does this work with a EG: longarmed, enlarged Bloodrager readying a grapple ? Does the successful grapple at range put the target adjacent to you and interrupt the charge? Or can the target still attack with 1h attacks? Or might the target simply be held grappled at the distance it provoked?
So i was thinking of making a throwing weapon based character, and i ran into a could of issues that had me posing some rule questions which i would like to clear up. For my ease of building I will go through these in the topics as they came up for me.
1) What exactly are the throwning weapons and what can i use to throw?
this might seem silly, but there is some confusing stuff going on here.
I get that they must be a weapon type (light, one handed, ect), but not a weapon property (blocking, monk, ect). That means that a weapon can have multiple types. A javelin is both a 1 handed melee weapon and a thrown weapon, or a throwing axe is both a light weapon and a thrown weapon.
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Gorum
You were trained to use shields as weapons. Heavy and light shields are considered simple weapons rather than martial weapons for you. Heavy shields are considered light weapons for you.
and get this to apply to shields if you are a Shield champion (brawler) because it allows you to apply enhancements and you can get the size increase bonuses because you treat the throwing damage as a Shield Bash.
Throw Shield (Ex):
Throw Shield (Ex): At 3rd level, a shield champion can throw a heavy or light shield as a normal (nonimprovised) thrown weapon with a range increment of 10 feet or the shield’s range increment, whichever is greater. The thrown shield deals the same damage as a shield bash, and any damage increases from shield spikes apply to this attack. A shield champion is treated as having the Far Shot feat for the purpose of determining range increment penalties for throwing a shield.
This means one can treat your (+1 bashing)light shield (+1 agile)spiked shield as a 1d8+[Dex] throwing weapon right?
1.11) With Shield trained it tells me to treat the HEAVY SHIELDS as light weapons. Does that mean they I can use the Finesse feat?
Finesse:
Benefit: With a light weapon[, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
I know i can already use it as with swashbuckler's finesse because it counts as a 1h piercing weapon . And if i can use it with finesse, then i should be able to apply agile to the weapon aswell right?
Agile:
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
1.12) So that means one could get Captain Andorran to throw a (+1 bashing)heavy shield (+1 agile)spiked shield as a 2d6+[Dex] right?
But back to throwing weapons
These are 1 handed options
1h throwing weapons:
club, harpoon, javelin, shortspear, spear
Nothing exciting here. No slashing grace shenanigans yet.
1.2)
reader wrote:
"Slashing grace?"
I hear you remark.
well, this was all under the assumption that all throwing weapons are ONLY those in the throw weapon group. If we were to treat ANYTHING with a range increment as a range increment, suddenly the list gets much bigger (like a Sibat and some interesting options open up. Now is that maybe the correct interpretation?
And then combining this enhancement:
+1 weapon enhancement(throwing):
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use.
together with:
+1 weapon enhancement(returning):
This special ability can only be placed on a weapon that can be thrown . A returning weapon flies through the air back to the creature that threw it. It returns to the thrower just before the creature's next turn (and is therefore ready to use again in that turn). Catching a returning weapon when it comes back is a free action. If the character can't catch it, or if the character has moved since throwing it, the weapon drops to the ground in the square from which it was thrown.
We could potentially be tossing +1 throwing, returning Adamantine greatswords. For 2d6+[Str]
Or we could skip the cost for a +1 enhancement by being a barbarian.
Raging Hurler:
Prerequisites: Rage class feature, Throw Anything.
Benefit: While raging, you can throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action, and you double the range increment for weapons you throw. If you also have the Quick Draw feat, you can throw two-handed weapons at your full normal rate of attacks. Further, you can pick up an unattended object that you can use as a improvised weapon within your reach as part of the attack action to throw that item.
1.21) Now RAW, we'd still need to have Quickdraw to be able to attack multiple times, despite having a returning weapon, but I would suspect that that RAI, we could manage without right?
Now forgetting the 2h options and back to slashing grace.
Slashing grace:
Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of light or one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.
1.22) Since we can now make any melee weapon throwable, and we know we can apply slashing grace to the ever adored Falcata or scimitar. AND since the feat doesn't specify that the damage replacement is restricted to melee hits. Does this mean that a lv 8 swashbuckler can toss out his +1 throwing, returning falcata for 1d8+[dex](17-20)x3+[lv] damage?
1.3) Now the last part, with the feats:
Slipslinger grenadier:
Prerequisites: Slipslinger Style, Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (sling) or weapon training (thrown) class feature, warslinger racial traitARG.
Benefit: While using Slipslinger Style, as a standard action you can use a sling to hurl an alchemical splash weapon, treating it as a sling bullet for the purpose of drawing and loading it into your sling. Your sling deals its normal weapon damage, plus the loaded splash weapon’s effect or damage. This extra damage is not multiplied on a critical hit.
Slipslnger Bombardment:
Prerequisites: Quick Draw, Slipslinger Grenadier, Slipslinger Style, Throw Anything, Weapon Focus (sling) or weapon training (thrown) class feature, warslinger racial traitARG.
Benefit: You can use a sling to hurl alchemical splash weapons as ammunition with Slipslinger Grenadier during an attack action or a full-attack action, loading your sling with such weapons as a free action.
I can start tossing out Alchemical splash weapons with my sling as if they were bullets. But whose extra splash damage does not multiply.
Does this mean I am attacking with my sling? (, hitting AC, applying enhancement and feat bonuses, and most importantly treating it as a weapon in the thrown weapon group )
Or am I treating it as a modified thrown splash weapon? (getting bonuses of splash weapons like targetign touch AC, increased aoe or [int] to damage from alchemist}
I'm leaning for the former (this opens up Startoss style), but i can understand the latter for RAI.
Now for the next set of questions.
2) How to attack with different throwing weapons.
Normally you use Dex to hit with ranged attack. But with the magical belt
Belt of Mighty Hurling (Lesser):
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot belt; Price 14,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
Description
This thick leather belt is buckled with a bright bronze clasp in the shape of a fist. When worn, it grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength and allows him to apply his Strength modifier as a bonus on attack rolls instead of his Dexterity modifier when making ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Also, the range increment of any weapon thrown by the wearer gains a +10-foot bonus. Treat this Strength bonus as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.
You can use your STR to hit on ranged attacks with thrown weapons. Pretty straight forward.
2.1) But does this apply to slings aswell?
2.2) And while we are on the subject of slings, I take it that since they fall in the thrown weapon group I can use Startoss style and the subsequent feats with it aswell, correct?
Startoss style:
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group. While using this style and the chosen weapon, you gain a bonus on damage rolls made with the weapon equal to 2 + 2 per style feat you possess that lists Startoss Style as a prerequisite (maximum +6 damage). You cannot use this ability if you are carrying a weapon or a shield in your off hand (except for a buckler).
Special: In addition to the chosen weapon, a character with this feat and the weapon training (thrown) class feature can use Startoss Style with any thrown weapons that she wields in one hand.
2.3) And while we are on this, does that mean that if we treat the sling as a thrown weapon, does this mean we can combine (MoMS Monk) Startoss style, with Slipslinger style (and eventually Slipslinger Bombardment)? And can we do this with ALL "Slings"?
Slipslinger style:
You gain a +1 bonus on damage rolls made with all types of slings, and don’t provoke attacks of opportunity when reloading a sling. In addition, you treat all ranged and thrown weapons that have “sling” in their name as if they were slings for all feats and class abilities that require such weapons, as well as the warslinger racial trait.
3) Then there is the question about improvised weapons. There are feats that allow you throw improvised items without penalty.
Throw anything:
You are used to throwing things you have on hand.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised ranged weapon. You receive a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls made with thrown splash weapons.
Normal: You take a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon
And to even increase the size:
Improvised weapon mastery:
You can turn nearly any object into a deadly weapon, from a razor-sharp chair leg to a sack of flour.
Prerequisites: Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised weapon. Increase the amount of damage dealt by the improvised weapon by one step (for example, 1d4 becomes 1d6) to a maximum of 1d8 (2d6 if the improvised weapon is two-handed). The improvised weapon has a critical threat range of 19–20, with a critical multiplier of ×2.
3.1) Now does this also apply to throwing statues/metal urns with the Hurling rage powers?
Rage powers Hurler, lesser, normal, greater:
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) : As a full-round action while raging, the barbarian can lift and hurl an object up to one size category smaller than herself with both hands or two size categories smaller with one hand as an improvised weapon with a range increment of 10 feet. This inflicts damage as a falling object (Core Rulebook 443) plus the barbarian’s Strength bonus. This damage is halved if the object is not made of stone, metal, or similar material. This is a ranged touch attack, and the target may attempt a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarian’s level + the barbarian’s Strength modifier) for half damage. The barbarian may apply Power Attack to this attack as a one- or two-handed weapon, as appropriate.
Hurling(Ex) :
As lesser hurling, but the barbarian can increase the range increment to 20 feet or increase the size of a hurled object by one size category. A barbarian must have the lesser hurling rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 8th level to select this rage power.
Hurling, greater(Ex) :
As hurling, but the barbarian can increase the range increment to 30 feet or increase the size of a hurled object by two size categories. A barbarian must have the hurling rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 12th level to select this rage power.
Does this mean A lv 4 gnome Barbarian can pick up a tiny object in 2h (like a metal urn) increase it to small object (2d6)with improvised master 2d6+1.5[STR] ?
3.2) and If i am an Enlarged lv 12 Bar (or Primalist (bloodrager), can i pick up a Huge Statue and chuck it at my foes without it shrinking when i release it? Or does it get enlarged to Gargantuan when i pick it up and then shrink back to Huge when I throw it?
3.3) And does this also stack with the Breaker (barbarian) Battle Scavanger ability?
Battle Scavanger (ex):
At 3rd level, the breaker barbarian suffers no penalty on attack rolls when using an improvised weapon or a weapon with the broken condition. In addition, she gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls with improvised or broken weapons for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.
3.4)I also assume this works for the Body Bludgeon rage power
Body Bludgeon (Ex):
: While raging, if the barbarian pins an opponent that is smaller than her, she can then use that opponent as a two-handed improvised weapon that deals 1d8 points of bludgeoning damage, assuming the opponent is sized Small. Larger or smaller creatures used as a bludgeon deal damage based on their size using this base damage. A size Tiny creature deals 1d6 points of damage, a size Medium creature deals 1d10 points of damage, and so on. The barbarian can make a single attack using the pinned opponent as part of the action she uses to maintain the grapple, using her highest attack bonus. Whenever the barbarian hits using the pinned opponent as a weapon, she deals damage to her target normally, and the grappled opponent used as a bludgeon also takes the same damage she dealt to the target. If the pinned opponent is unable to resist being pinned for any reason, the barbarian can use that opponent as an improvised weapon without grappling or pinning the opponent, until the creature is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, at which point the creature becomes useless as an improvised weapon. A barbarian must be at least 10th level before selecting this rage power.
3.5) And while we are here, can we take weapon focus and weapon specialization for Improvised weapons ? I assume those would also apply to weapons when they are thrown.
And for the people who like to sneak attack or hit touch AC's. The Catch of Guard feat states:
Catch of Guard :
You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed against any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon .
3.6) Now RAI i presume they say improvised melee weapon, they mean a melee attack, but could I RAW this as to also apply to ranged attacks when throwing improvised melee weapons? (like chucking a bar stool, or a bench, so i could to sneak attack by throwing improvised melee weapons vs the Flatfooted AC of unarmed opponents?
4) So now we finally arrive at the last portion of my queries. Increasing the damage potential.
So i already addressed some thing like a changing the [mod] you get to apply to damage, or if you can add enhancement bonuses and size increases. I assume if you are throwing with a magically beefed up weapon that count as larger then it looks, you will do appropriate damage.
Now the easiest ways to increase the damage pool i think at to use either the monk progressions for throwing monk weapons, the Brawler progression for throwing close weapons or the warpriest sacred weapon progression when it comes to throwing any other light or 1h weapon . (warpriest of Kurgess anyone?).
But after all of talk about what we can consider a thrown weapon. i was wondering. Can we further increase the size of weapons we toss with spells like Lead Blades
Lead Blades, School transmutation; Level ranger 1:
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range personal
Targets touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
DESCRIPTION
Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades (see table below). Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.
Again, there is no specification of having to make melee attacks. So our lv 4/2 ranger/barb could use raging hurler and a wand of returning weapon to toss our lead bladed greatsword at a foe for 3d6+[str]. Correct?
4.1) And I could use the same spell to boost Captain Andorran's shield to 3d6 right? (since the size increases come from two different effects)
4.2) But can we go even crazier? How about we just dip a ranger and go strait up Titan Fighter (Fighter), or take the Titan Mauler (Barbarian) aswell, and start lobbing around an oversized lead bladed greatswords at a foe for 4d6+[str]? Sure, the to hit is terrible.
for Titan fighter:
Giant Weapon Wielder (Ex): At 1st level, a titan fighter can wield two-handed melee weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself, treating them as two-handed weapons. He takes an additional –2 penalty on attack rolls when using an oversized two-handed weapon. This ability replaces the fighter’s 1st level bonus feat.
Incredible Heft (Ex) : At 3rd level, a titan fighter becomes more skilled at wielding weapons intended for creatures one size category larger than himself. The penalty on attack rolls for using such weapons is reduced by 1, including when using oversized two-handed weapons. At 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter, this penalty is reduced by another 1 (minimum 0). This ability replaces armor training.
For Titan Mauler:
Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
Sure, the to hit is terrible. But RAW, there is nothing stopping us from throwing oversized weapons right?
5) Coming back to Hercules, Warpriest of Kurgess for a moment.
Startoss comet :
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Startoss Style, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single ranged thrown weapon attack at your full attack bonus with the chosen weapon. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make a second attack (at your full attack bonus) against a target within one range increment of the first. You determine cover for this attack from the first target’s space instead of your space. You can make only one additional attack per round with this feat. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not the second attack).
Startoss Shower:
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Startoss Comet, Startoss Style, Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you hit an opponent while using the Startoss Comet feat, you can continue to make attacks against foes that are within one range increment of all previous opponents. You determine cover for each attack from the most recently hit foe’s space instead of your space, and you cannot attack an individual foe more than once during this attack action. You can make a maximum number of attacks equal to 1 + 1 per 5 points of base attack bonus you possess. If you have Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, you can add the additional damage from those feats to the initial ranged attack (but not any subsequent attacks).
This lv 5/1 human warpriest
B deadly aim, C, weapon focus spear, 1 point blank shot, 3 startoss comet, B, precise shot, 5 startoss shower. With returning weapon prepared and a wand of lead blades and using deadly aim.
Can (standard)toss his +1 (sacred) shocking spear at a target at full BAB, against orc 1 at 20ft (, then another (comet) at Orc2 who is 20ft further away and then (shower) another one at Full BAB at orc 3 who is 20 ft further away and then the last at -5 to hit vs Orc4 (not sure if this is how the feat works) and damage each orc for 2d6+[Str]+5 +1d6[elec] and an additional +6 to Orc 1.
And if he uses a +1 (sacred)shocking javelin it would be 1d8+[Str]+5 +1d6[elec]to each Orc within 50ft of the next target.
Correct?
Sorry for the long post, i didn't want to have to smear this out over multiple threads and i tried to include everything relevant to people who would consider making a throwing based character, or a halfling slinging alchemist.
So I was asking a question about riptide, hydraulic maneuvers and ranged combat maneuvers when I realized I kind of hit an unintentional snag.
The Drag maneuvers states:
Drag:
You can attempt to drag a foe as a standard action. You can only drag an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Drag feat or a similar ability, initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can drag the target back an additional 5 feet. You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver. If you do not have enough movement, the drag goes to the maximum amount of movement available to you and ends.
An enemy being moved by a drag does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Drag feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your movement, the drag ends adjacent to that creature.
So while performing the maneuver, you have to MOVE WITH the target. Now the criteria for a 5ft step are...
5ft step:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.
You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.
1) Sooooo, it would appear that i cannot 5ft step up to the wizard that stepped away and drag the old man back into the party, because that 5ft step would seem to invalidate the movement that i need to make during the maneuver. Similarly, when you have been stationary, one could never ready a drag maneuver with a 5ft step.
Is this correct? It seems a bit off to me that this maneuver is so limited.
2) Further more, while we are on the subject of drag and movement, when moving up to a target using your move action, and then performing a drag on your target. Does it count you maximum movement as your speed for ONE move action, or a one move+surplus movement? EG: if a speed 20 dwarf walks 10 ft, and then exceeds the drag with 25 (like with true strike, or a tiny opponent), does he get to move the target 30 (20+10) ft, or only the 20 ft a single movement (standard action) allows?
3) And this movement, is it even considered voluntary? The maneuver description says that: If your attack is successful, both you and your target are moved 5 feet back, with your opponent occupying your original space and you in the space behind that in a straight line. and: You must be able to move with the target to perform this maneuver.
Could i read this as meaning that the movement BOTH you and your target make during the maneuver is considered forced movement and does not provoke from either your, or your victim's allies? It only states that need to be able to move with (so not be hindered in movement like stuck to the ground, entangled, or barred by terrain that is impassable only for you)
If we consider it forced movement with a distance cap of your available speed, wouldn't this circumvent the 5ft step restriction? (because technically you would not be moving, but are BEING moved)
And lastly 4).
I'ts completely legit for anything that can fly and hover, to drag something into the air right? Like an large air elemental dragging the gnome mesmerist onto a ledge, 20 ft into the air, or even 15 off the edge of a 100ft cliff. Provided you have the lift capacity ofc.
So this season in PFS the elemental races became legal and i saw the Undine feat Hydraulic maneuver
Prerequisites: Hydraulic push spell-like ability, undine.
Benefit: You may use hydraulic push to attempt a bull rush, disarm, dirty trick (blind or dazzle), or trip combat maneuver. Each time you use hydraulic push, you must decide which of the allowed combat maneuvers you want to perform. You may use this feat with your hydraulic push racial spell-like ability, your class-granted use of hydraulic push, or any hydraulic push spells you cast, but not with magic items or other external sources that use that spell.
Normal: Hydraulic push can only be used to make a bull rush combat maneuver.
And all i could think of, gotto get me some of that sweet water action.
Now it seems very clear that the spell allows you to make a trip combat maneuver with the feat. But how does this interact with a feat that gives you a free or swift action following a trip? Like say, Riptide Attack
Prerequisites: Improved Drag, Improved Trip.
Benefit: When you succeed at a trip combat maneuver, you may automatically make a drag combat maneuver against your tripped target as a swift action. Your base attack bonus for the drag check is the same as the base attack bonus you used for the trip check. The drag attempt provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.
Could I:
1) make a swift drag maneuver as part of the initial maneuver and pull the target closer to me? (like from 25ft range)
2) Blast a target 5 feet away, 5 foot step (free action) and then use the swift action to drag my tripped back? (so trip from range and then drag from melee)
3) Blast a target from within my reach (longarm/enlarge/reach weapon) trp him and then drag it back? (so trip AND drag from reach range)
And while i'm on it. Why does Riptide Attack say
The drag attempt provokes attacks of opportunity as normal
When you need the Improved Drag feat that specifically says:
You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a drag combat maneuver. ?
In the same vein what about Squash Flat?
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Merciless Rush, worshiper of Rovagug.
Benefit: Whenever you make a bull rush attack and your combat maneuver check exceeds the target’s CMD by 5 or more, you can attempt to trip the target as part of your bull rush as a free action. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
That specifically states that the trip attempt is PART of the bullrush action. Does that mean you can bullrush with Hydraulic Push and then immediately trip after?
And would this work with the Oceans Domain ability Surge (su)
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the icicle power of the Water domain.
Surge (Su): As a standard action, you can cause a mighty wave to appear that pushes or pulls a single creature. Make a combat maneuver check against the target, using your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier as your CMB. If successful, you may pull or push the creature as if using the bull rush or drag combat maneuver. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
or with this the Wind subdomain windblast (su) power?
Replacement Power: The following granted power replaces the lightning arc power of the Air domain.
Wind Blast (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash a blast of air in a 30-foot line. Make a combat maneuver check against each creature in the line, using your caster level as your base attack bonus and your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier. Treat the results as a bull rush attempt. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
Or the Sylphs alternate racial trait Breeze kissed (SU, i think)
Breeze-Kissed
Breezes seem to follow most sylphs wherever they go, but some sylphs are better able to control these winds than others. A sylph with this racial trait surrounds herself with swirling winds, gaining a +2 racial bonus to AC against nonmagical ranged attacks. The sylph can calm or renew these winds as a swift action. Once per day, the sylph can channel this wind into a single gust, making a bull rush or trip combat maneuver attempt against one creature within 30 feet. Whether or not the attempt succeeds, the winds are exhausted and no longer provide a bonus to the sylph’s AC for 24 hours. This is a supernatural ability. This racial trait replaces air affinity.
(like a druid who thinks he is the wrath of the ocean made manifest)
And finally, i presume that the benefits of the improved and greater maneuver feats work with these spells. So you can get the bonuses and the maneuvers provoke attacks from your alles as you Push/trip/drag or Push&trip or trip&drag your victims over the battlefield. That is Correct, right? And completely RAW.
So I played the Golden Guardian adventures and got some inspiration to make a grippli for PFS once i get the boon. I was looking over the racial features and I came across the Agile Tongue feat
paizo wrote:
You have a prehensile tongue with a range of 10 feet. You can pick up items weighing no more than 5 pounds, make Sleight of Hand checks, perform the steal or disarm combat maneuvers, or make melee touch attacks with your tongue.
So I thought I could make a crazy touch based druid or shaman caster build with a few Unchained Rogue levels mixed in for sneak attacks and debilitating injury. Using touch spells with level based charges (frostbite) you can do this several times per cast and debuff consistently if you flank. (since you count as threatening with touch spells if you hold charges). But can I make multiple attack with a high BAB? Can I make AoO to disarm people moving through my 10 ft reach? Do I provoke if I disarm or steal at range with my tongue? Do I take a -4 for being unarmed?
So the way I understand it there are 3 options. Whichever it is, the tongue is: Finessable, able to deliver touch spells with sneak attack and you threaten from 10ft while holding a touch spell.
A) The tongue is another limb you get that allows you to make disarm, steal, sleight of hand checks and melee touch attacks as if it were an unarmed strike. That means:
- you take a -4 on unarmed disarm attempts
-you provoke when stealing and disarming without the improved feats
- You don't threaten to disarm with AoO or touch attacks (poison, circumstantial things), unless you get improved unarmed strike.
- If you successfully disarm you hold the weapon in your tongue (if lees then 5 lb)
- you can't flank from 10ft without imp unarmed strike
- you get to use additional iterative tongue attacks for high BAB
- You can use it with flurry of blows (delivering multiple spell charges via touch attacks) since it's a part of the body of the combatant, not unlike a pinky finger or kneecap.
-The tongue can be used in both 5 and 10ft reach (since it's natural reach)
- the tongue can be used to retrieve items from backpacks (like a tail) and hold items under 5 lb (like potions or scrolls)
or B) the tongue functions as a natural weapon with which you make disarm, steal and sleight of hand attempts and only touch attacks within 10 ft reach AND THAT DEALS NO DAMAGE. This means:
- You don't take no penalty for disarming.
- You threaten 10 ft but not possibly not 5ft (question).
-You threaten 10 ft for disarms. (and can flank from 10ft)
-on a successful disarm the weapon always ends on the ground
- You can combine it with another weapon in full attack but at a -5.
- you don't get iteratives for high BAB
- you can flurry with Feral combat training feat.
- the tongue cannot be used to retrieve items or hold items as a hand.
Or C) it is a special thing that is a combination of the above or neither.
Then come my subquestions:
And if it is A) a unarmed strike weapon
>Can I do unarmed damage if I take monks lvs and improved unarmed strike. (seems silly I can slap people with my hands, but not my tongue).
> If i can't do unarmed strike damage, can I still deliver stunning fist, touch of serenity or likewise abilities (like HEX STRIKE)? (since these are status granting melee attacks, not melee touch attacks, despite what some of the names might imply. It seems kind of counter intuitive i can deliver melee touch spells that calm, but not something names "touch of serenity".
If it is B) a natural weapon:
> Can I wake weapon focus in tongue?
> Can I grant it unarmed strike damage with feral combat training?
> can I give it DEX to damage with Finesse training from Unchained Rogue?
I would like to know what the PFS legal situation is. Limb, or natural weapon?
I myself would tell my players it's a limb and therefore an unarmed strike type of action. Forcing them to take imp unarmed strike to threaten in 10ft, but as a result also allow them to unarmed strike with it once they have it. Now i realize that might be a bit to powerful and for PFS it's easier to rule it as a natural weapon. But looking at my conjecture above, I'm not sure, hence my question.
