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Liberty's Edge

I’d love to be a part of this. Is there still room?

I’ve got an oracle 10 who is great fun (and an alchemist if need be)

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Two handed weapons are like gold. Think Conan and Elric. Can't go wrong. High strength and power attack, that's pretty much it.

You're not so much the armored guy as you are the damage dealer. Go attack and destroy things.

Buy a shield, and strap it to your back. It'll be useful here and there.

If you really like cleave, I'd move eventually to a reach weapon.

Why not ranger 2/ lore warden 2? Still get medium armor from ranger, and average five skill points a level, with quite a nice list of class skills.

You might also like inquisitor. They do very well when built for melee, I'm having great fun with mine.

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If you're doing that, I'd go barbarian, because you can still rage in wild shape form.

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I've always been of the opinion that, to a native of the Astral plane, we're the outsiders.

When I have all the free time in the world, I'm going to write an adventure where the PCs are grabbed by a planar binding spell and yanked to another dimension, to fulfill whatever miserable job the caster isn't willing to dirty his own hands with.

Or better still, opposing extra planar casters bind the PCs to defeat their enemies which gets you into endless non-lethal party violence, until one side overcomes the other and one of the outsider spellcasters. Ideally, PCs think their way out of the jam.

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And remember, PCs over 11th level are vulnerable to legend lore themselves.

That tactic they always use? It's well known.

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Anyone that can cast legend lore (and face it, that's not many people) are going to be famous/wealthy/powerful themselves.

Which means they are capable enough to say:

A) no thanks, keep your money
B) I've been paid off already
C) You don't work for my faction, why should I work for yours?

They're also perfectly able to manipulate the PCs, to get what they want.

If you're going to have a game world, you need to know what people are doing and what they want. You can't just have monsters living in caves waiting until the players arrive.

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Why not finish the adventure, and discuss once you are done?

Having the entire Internet looking over the judge's shoulder sets a terrible precedent, and we'll run out of judges quickly that way.

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Entangle, Call lightning if they have a Druid.

Think about your own character for a minute. Most clerics are weak on reflex saves. So, shore that up.

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A younger son who thought they had legally inherited the throne, and then were told a few days later, wait, no, sorry.

One war later, and the law was changed.

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Thanks for the reminder, my last homemade game world had ideas like this. The inspiration was the old Dragon cartoon Wormy, where there were two levels of story, what the regular size characters were up to, and what the big folk were up to (dragon, ogres, cyclops)

So, think about what the major individuals and groups in your campaign world are, and what they are trying to achieve.

My last world had very clear rules on how wars were to be fought. Battles were observed by priests of the war god, and they would attack any who broke the rules.

Teleportation magic had become a monopoly, and was limited to certain routes. The mages guild dealt quickly with those who broke the rules. Likewise, magical items all had trademarks, and the core rulebook represented guild prices. Cheaper illegal items could sometimes be found, but were sometimes unreliable.

All temples and even some shrines were defended by the faithful, usually augmented with outsider help. Stealing from temples just wasn't done lightly.

And dying meant legally dead, even if you were brought back. Usually only mattered to those wealthy enough to inherit estates and such.

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I guess they're scared that...something bad might happen.

Can you send them a pair of Paizo big-boy pants, Kyle?

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This isn't a new idea.

GURPS, to name one, claims to be the system you describe.

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Small size is an advantage for any kind of spellcaster, really.

Bonuses to AC and attacks are great, as is dark vision. The downsides of smaller weapons and lower str doesn't really matter if you cast spells for a living.

Druid is a possibility, with the wisdom bonus, but I'd go with empyrean sorcerer, personally.

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Work with your GM, and find a matching creature. Hellhound is better than goat, but worse than dire tiger.

Then, just advance whenever the matching creature would.

If that fails, you can always be an evil cavalier. That's easy.

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I agree that hellhounds are a bit underwhelming, but the structure exists already, and it's often easier to ask for small changes. Some people get twitchy when they hear eidolon, animal companion is more likely to be listened to fairly IMHO.

What if you allowed it to advance as an animal companion as well, or gave it a free template, like advanced or fiendish? Go to giant at 9th level.

You'll also be able to slap some barding on, that'll help too.

Alternately, can you grab a hellhound cohort with leadership? Then it can advance as a ranger or something.

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It seems more complicated than it needs to be. Paladins already get companions...

You're suggested to take something off the SMIII list. Hell hound is SM IV. So, slap the young template onto it, and you're done.

The second type of bond allows an antipaladin to gain the service of a fiendish servant. This functions as summon monster III, except the duration is permanent and the antipaladin can only gain the service of a single creature and that creature must either have the chaotic and evil subtypes or it must be a fiendish animal. Once selected, the choice is set, but it may be changed whenever the antipaladin gains a level. Upon reaching 7th level, and every two levels thereafter, the level of the summon monster spell increases by one, to a maximum of summon monster IX at 17th level. Once per day, as a full-round action, an antipaladin may magically call his servant to his side. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the antipaladin’s level. The servant immediately appears adjacent to the antipaladin. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels thereafter, for a total of four times per day at 17th level.

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For character one:

First thing, buy oil of magic weapon. There are creatures that are IMMUNE to normal weapons, and they will kill you. It's not like damage reduction, you can literally do nothing.

That will tide you over until you can afford everything you want.

As for being able to see, buy a few sunrods. You can drop them on the floor and they stay lit, or hand them to an ally with a free hand.

Then, make a list of all the things you might want to have, or are thinking about, and we'll help you put it in order.

Personally, I prioritize that first magic weapon for melee types, because better armor is higher numbers, but breaking through DR/magic and incorporeality is a huge difference.

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Tanglefoot bags and holy water are working well for me.

I'm a simple guy, what can I say.

But the best part of that trick is the ability to decide on the fly, based on opponent and circumstances.

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Your higher level spells are your attack spells. When you get to the point where you HAVE low level spells, they're for utility and defense.

Protection from evil, alarm, blur, invisibility, mirror image, feather fall are all good.

But you're not going to impress anyone with a burning hands.

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I'm leaning toward bringing back the % chance to know spell chart from 1e.

Still tinkering with it, but my baseline goal is that you have a 50% chance to learn a new spell of the highest level you can cast.

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Pathfinder society HQ is an island. Mst of my characters have a rank in swim and profession sailor.

A rank or two in linguistics is also a good choice.

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Magic vestment, greater magic armor, and heroes feast would go a long way.

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Kyle Baird wrote:


Never thought about carrying around a shield. Hmm.

This actually gets me thinking about a different key aspect of high-level play, which is 'know the table'.

Look around, and know your role, and how it adjusts based on the other players.

My cleric os Asmodeus can act as a party buffer, or can focus on damage spells and fire domain to take the place of an evoker. With a different set of spells, I can even tank somewhat. Won't do a lot of damage up front, but I can take a beating.

On that rare day when Kyle's barbarian is the entire front line, the shield will be very helpful.

How can your character adjust? Decide now, and have plans B and C ready. As an example, my friend's archer has Power Attack. It's only useful when he's not able to shoot arrows, but that's when he most wants to end the fight quickly.

And as a fighter with a high strength, he's ok with a greatsword.

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Jiggy wrote:
Um, a wand of create water would cost 375gp, wouldn't it?

Sorry, yes. I have a terrible cold, I'm not 100%

Lormyr, I'm going to suggest that RP considerations, while interesting, are really a different thread.

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Actually, 1 PA for a wand of create water isn't a bad idea. Everything's on fire seems to happen often enough...

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Try the bard archetype : )

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That wasn't directed at you, Jiggy. I was referring to the many PFS players who are hitting high-level play for the first time.

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I think it's something else, actually.

I think most players have most of their experience at low levels. And at those levels, the day you get full plate is a good day.

Your armor class is literally so high, compared to your opponents, that you are unhittable.

That goes away as characters advance, unless you focus a considerable amount of effort into armor class. So part of it is not knowing how to layer defenses, but a lot more is shock as players run into higher level opponents for the first time.

"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."

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Dorothy, if it's any consolation, I 've been there. My first Living Greyhawk character was a mess, even with the free rebuild we got when we moved from 3.0 to 3.5.

BUT, I learned a great deal, and those are mistakes I don't make any more.

Feel free to PM me if you've got a specific question, but a number of moderately priced items is fine.

I find it useful to shop ahead. It's especially helpful when you've only got an hour to eat lunch and get ready for the next mission. What are the next 5-10 items your character will buy?.

Decide NOW, and you'll have an easier time of it. Then put them in order, which do you need first?

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You can lend them to allies, and at least get some use from them.

And a lot of oracle scrolls, especially repair and divination, are non-battle spells anyway.

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I usually buy things from cheapest to most expensive,so the + 4000 for a stat item comes after a magic weapon and a set of alchemical items.

I'm also not afraid to spend PA.

Sure, sure, 12 PA for a raise dead. But it's only 2 for something that will keep you alive.
That's basically 10 free PA. You're a fool if you don't take the deal.

Potions of fly, invisibility, delay poison, lesser restoration, lesser restoration, blur, etc are all things you can basically get for free.

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Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Rudolph, I agree with you on the tactics needing to change, and you did an excellent explanation of the multi-attack tradeoff.

I guess where I'm confused is that from these descriptions, it sounds like the character build and/or approach has to change. For example, in the lower tiers, getting your AC up quickly is pretty darn important, so characters invest a lot of money in armor and such. At higher tiers, you need to have the hit points, but you can't really recoup the money you've "wasted" keeping your AC high enough to get to 7th level. So what do you do?

Like I said, I have a couple of mid-level characters that are clearly not going to survive the higher tiers. But they've gotten to level 8 without dying once (and they're not "hide in the back types"). I've been "evolving" the characters through their careers, but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.

Dorothy, it's time to diversify. For two reasons.

The first is cost. Magic armor +1 costs you 1000. That's a good deal. But what about the next plus? To upgrade again, it's 3000. Same amount of improvement, three times the cost. And it keeps getting worse.

The second reason is that even if you could afford it, there are more problems in the world than armor class will solve. A group of goblin alchemists will burn you down, and you can't get your touch AC high enough to stop it.

But, a potion of resist fire? That's perfect. Once each bomb does 10 less, you have the advantage, and can charge in with sword held high.

AC isn't useless at high levels. But it's not total immunity from harm either. Generally, primary attacks will connect, yours and theirs. And that's for the best, otherwise combats would last a LONG time.

As a rule of thumb, a poor AC is tier + 10, acceptable is tier +15, and good is tier +20. And it does two things: it means that claw claw bite wing poke n the eye won't ALL hit, and it helps criticals miss you.

So, once your AC is good enough, focus on all of the other protections you might need. Can you defend against fire, poison, fatigue, darkness, etc? Can you fly and turn invisible if need be?

These are defenses too, and the difference between +1 and +2 armor will cover a whole lot of that space. If you neglect them, you'll be the pathfinder whose magnificent armor sank to the bottom of the sea.

There are some good threads already on useful things to buy, so I'll leave it at that.

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Ex: Monster charges you

Here's the deciding factor: Is the monster's full attack better than yours? If so, trading full attacks is a bad move.

Low-tier response

Monster charges me (+2)
I full attack monster
Monster full attacks me
rinse, repeat

Analysis
Most of these full attacks are a single attack, maybe gaining a second attack with flurry or TWF if you're that sort. Usually, there really isn't a difference between an attack and a full attack. Therefore, it makes sense to stay put, because moving provokes an attack of opportunity.

High-tier response

Monster charges me (+2)
I attack monster, and move away (provoking)
Monster charges me again

Analysis
The monster is getting two attacks to your one. That seems bad, I know. But it's only 2:1, and you might be able to tumble, spring attack, or grab some cover to disrupt the second charge.

If you stay, you're getting and giving a full attack. For many creatures, that could be four attacks, which means a 5:3 attack ratio. That's not much different than 2:1 overall, but it's more than twice as fast. That hurts you.

It's less time for your spellcasters and ranged attackers to help you, it's less time for your allies to move into position, and you're now taking damage faster than your healer can keep up.

In short, speed things up and trade full attacks when you are already winning, slow things down otherwise.

*generic advice does not pertain to EVERY circumstance

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The tactics need to change, that's all.

Ex: beginning of combat, monsters surprised

Low-tier

I charge the monster, gaining a +2 to attack
Monster full attacks me
I full attack the monster

High-tier

I ready an attack
Monster charges me at +2 (taking readied attack)
I full attack the monster

Analysis

At low levels, a full attack is often just one attack, or multiple weak attacks. In that case, the +2 to hit from your own charge is surely worth it. A melee type like a power attacking barbarian could easily destroy an opponent with a successful charge, and even if that's not successful, the final score is player 2 attacks, monster 1.

At higher levels, a monster could have four attacks. This changes the balance: player 2 attacks, monster 4.

It also means that any area-effects that could be cast now have to work around the melee guy. He's out of range for many defensive spells, and going to get caught by a stinking cloud or whatever it targeting the monsters.

The high tier strategy could be as much as 4:1 in favor of the player, if you grant an iterative attack and haste, and could go higher. It also allows archers and casters to act more freely, and either not worry about shooting you, protect you, or interfere with the opponent.

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At low levels, you can play just about anything and you'll do okay if you roll well. It really doesn't matter if you have d20+1 or d20+3, the d20 is the important part, and the difference of two is relatively minor, it will come into play 10% of the time.

At high levels, that's not true anymore. If you didn't build a strong character, it really shows. Weak saving throws can kill you, and so can a lack of equipment.

Some people see this as a sudden increase in danger, but it's actually pretty steady, and some characters keep up, and others fall steadily farther behind.

PS a scroll of cure blindness only works on other people. Watched someone at my table learn that one the hard way.

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You don't need power attack, and you certainly don't need it at first level.

+1 for trapper or urban ranger instead.

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I think you should take this, and I think it's great. Some players will do fine.

To be a team layer, whip up some antitoxin, and hand it out at the beginning of each adventure. You look generous, and it notifies players 'there will be poison'. Cuts down on the complaining if you catch someone on accident. "Did you drink the antidote I gave you?"

Recognize that it's not an awesome strategy for every combat, and you should be fine. The crowded tavern fight filled with civilians? Bad choice.

And remember, stink bomb is WAY versatile.

It's a cloud effect, so it blocks line of sight.
It's no good to stay in, so iit denies terrain to your enemy
It forces your enemies where YOU want them

If you actually nauseated someone, even better.

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Be thoughtful about spending money. Yes, spend it, but try to do so wisely, and recognize that you'll need to go through about 10-20 percent as consumables.

Non-example:

Buy regular short bow
Sell shortbow
Buy MW shortbow
Sell MW shortbow
Buy MW composite longbow built for strength
Upgrade to magic longbow

Example:

Buy four javelins
Use javelins
Spend 2 PA for Mw longbow built for 14 Str
Buy oil of magic weapon

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In the Kingmaker campaign I'm in, I play a melee inquisitor with protection domain.

I'm now convinced of the value of defense. With good saves and the judgement abilities to resist energy or boost saves or gain fast healing, I'm VERY hard to stop.

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It's not at all bad for me, but there's a lot of monk hate swirling around.

One of my regular gamers is a Marine, and he feels like his training prepared him both physically and mentally.

His solution is to give fighters a good will save.

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I prefer spontaneous, because it matches up with my idea of how magic 'should' work.

They are both plenty powerful, so I don't feel a need to 'win' that endless debate.

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You realize that this takes us back toward monk, right?

Great saves, evasion, immunities, SR....it's all there.

A gestalt fighter/monk would do what you want.

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The key is to understand what's needed at the table.

Do as much as you need to, not as much as you can. It's ok to have your Summner oysters all attack, while your Summoner stands around.

If you find yourself in a party with a lot of fighters, use fewer summons, and cast enlarge person and haste on them let them shine.

If you can remember to make sure everyone gets some spotlight time, Summner works well.

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I think a lot of this comes down to how prevalent magic is in the campaign world.

If it's common, then paying for a spell to be cast is probably like paying for valet parking. Not something you do every day, but something you could choose to pay for if the occasion was right.

If important people know about magic, then there would be common defenses in place.

Guards would have dogs, because scent foils invisibility
Valuables would be kept in lead-lined boxes
Important places would be protected with magical effects, like hallow and forbiddance
The wealthy would have spellcasters on retainer, like we do with lawyers
Disguises would be more common, to defeat scrying. Even the dark hooded cloak is effective.
Rich and paranoid people would have doubles to do the dangerous work: Master rogues, dopplegangers, whatever.

And most importantly, the religious/legal system would have rules for who can be brought back from the dead and who cannot, and under what conditions.

My take on that is you need to be a member in good standing. Otherwise, some churches will tell you to forget it, others will assess you for missed years of tithing, plus penalty fees, plus atonement costs for your misdeeds, etc.

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I'm having trouble seeing an aasimar as a person that fights dirty.

I'd go with Cad-->Low Templar, and add in 0-3 levels of rogue based on personal preference.

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One of the ways to fix that problem is character levels. Compare storm giant to stone giant/ monk 10.

There's more to it than just hit points and BAB.

It's also important to mix things up. You'll need a group of giants, plus a spellcaster and someone that can fly, like a giant wyvern.

That way, it's harder to defeat them with a single spell or tactic.

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1) you're an arcane archer. You could always cast a spell at something...

2) Go with rapid shot, and let your friends help you with the constructs.

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I'd think about two changes...

1) it's not your weapon, it's the army's weapon. Have gear assigned to individuals, but owned by the unit. Solves wealth by level issues, you can assign more or less gear at any time.

Check Spycraft 1.0 for a great example of this in play.

2) Keep track of military ranks, and promote/demote people based on how well they do with the mission.

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Run Amok Games wrote:

Our latest release, the high-level 58-page adventure "Kingdom of Toads," is very timely. It's for 17th-18th level PCs, and scales down to 15th level or up to 20th. You can get it in pdf right here!

It's not a Paizo product, but written by a Paizo adventure-writing freelancer--does that count?

I've run through a lot of the authors previous work, and he's good.

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Slumbering Tsar goes to 22-23, and it looks great. I start it soon.

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