The Fifth Archdaemon

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I am going to have to take a step back from this one... .Life is pretty hectic at the moment and another complex game is just not going to be something I can keep up with, even at a slow pace.


I thought the other campaigns were 1:1 on CR for gestalt levels. If it’s actually 1:2, either as a change or something I missed, I need to tweak a few things.

I’m starting to get a character for this campaign. I’m thinking talented monk archer and talented witch, and see what happens from there with the companion. Does anyone know of a way to give animal companions a ranged attack? Kineticist maybe?


Was the change from 1 CR = 1 gestalt level to =2 gestalt levels deliberate, and does it apply to the other campaigns if so?


Aye, I had it pointed out to me that most spellcasting progressions do not list it in the "Special" column. The Evangalist PrC is the only Paizo one I am aware of with an "Aligned Class" that would get around some of the RAW restrictions of Prestigious. There are a few more third party ones out there, too; most from the recent City of 7 Seraphs product.

I think the only remaining example that could work would be this one, modified slightly:

Example 2: General Class 10 / Fighter 2 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with "Aligned Class"; would it cap out at Class Level 12?


A couple examples of what I am talking about.

Example 1: Wizard 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”

Example 2: Wizard 10 / Fighter 2 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting”

Example 3: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” for ½ HD caster level

Example 4: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Prestigious for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level

Example 5: Fighter 12 & X 12, taking HOPF Mythic Gestalt and using its "Spend 1 Mythic Power to get the first level of a Prestige class for 1 minute" ability for a Prestige Class with “+ Existing Level of Spellcasting” and taking HOPF “Magic User” and HOPF Mythic Magic User for full HD caster level


Ok, wow. Let me clarify here what I was asking, since it definitely got misinterpreted. And as Vrog says, that interpretation isn’t even legal. What I was asking about specifically is whether a PrC can break the class limit of 12 for anything. The Prestigious HOPF is the most likely offender here (and maybe I’ll just avoid it), as are classes with “aligned class” features. You can’t stack across the gestalt typically, but if you took a PrC that improved class features via HOPFs (Prestigious, mythic gestalt for 1 minute per mythic power, used magic user or some other HD based caster level not normally linked to one “side” or another, etc) would it stack past 12, only stack up to 12, or not stack at all?


I'm still a long ways from being done for this campaign... Newborns take a lot of time!

I do have a question on a couple of prestige classes though; did we decide what happens if you take a prestige class with "+level to existing class or class feature" abilities? For example, would it get stacked above the normal class level limit, only go up to the normal class level limit (so it only benefits if you multi-classed the normal level progression), or has no benefit at all?


Inquisitor. Especially with the various archetypes, you can make it into almost anything; front line, support, healing, skill monkey, summoner, etc.


Sebecloki wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:

I'm possibly interested, though it will depend on whether the other campaigns I am in settle down once the current rebuild is complete. Characters this complex get pretty difficult to actively create multiple at one time.

I'd be interested in running an evangalist cleric archer of some kind, riding a winter wolf or a horse if that fits better. Inspire courage to the group and lots of arrows in the air.

What culture would he/she be from? I think it'd be interesting to have a buddhist, hindu, or taoist character in the mix if you haven't decided yet.

I had not decided yet. I need to update my general, out of date knowledge to something more in depth. I'd be most inclined towards a Taoist philosophy, of the three you mentioned, but I'm generally hesitant to RP real world cultures/beliefs I know little about IRL.


I'm possibly interested, though it will depend on whether the other campaigns I am in settle down once the current rebuild is complete. Characters this complex get pretty difficult to actively create multiple at one time.

I'd be interested in running an evangalist cleric archer of some kind, riding a winter wolf or a horse if that fits better. Inspire courage to the group and lots of arrows in the air.


Still interested. I think I might need to walk back the "twins" idea to only one PC though - the champion of the guard who kicks butt and scares/debuffs her enemies.


I just mentioned the scaling feats as a 3PP resource worth looking at. They aren't a seperate sub system or anything super complicated - it's literally just another 3PP book with lists of feats. I wasn't intending to push them in - or out - as an explicit note in the chargen rules.


The Unfettered Prince wrote:
@River of Sticks: Do you believe that this set of feats would make a significant improvement to the game over say, Elephant in the Room?

They both look to do different things. Elephant says "Here's a bunch of poor feats in a chain, lets condense it" while the Reforged feats are more "Here's a feat by itself, lets give it some progression at 7th/13th/19th levels".

There is a bit of overlap in some of them - Two Weapon Fighting comes to mind - but the Reforged feats are less about feat trees/chains and more the individual feat.

I would personally be inclined towards using both, without trying to scale feats that aren't already done. If they are in there, great! There's some cool progression with the character. If the feat you want doesn't scale, you still wanted it for a reason, right?


I just figured we'd take a scaling feat over the regular one where one existed, sort of as a bonus. I can work with anyone to see if a feat is on the list, or throw a snapshot of the table of contents up or something.

Or I can avoid them entirely if the group doesn't want to use them at all.


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Unfortunately I cannot find them on an SRD...

One suggestion I do have - allow similar classes to poach talents. IE, an Avenger Vigilante can choose slayer talents, a stalker vigilante can choose rogue talents or investigator talents, a rogue can choose ninja tricks or investigator talents, etc. I can't say I've actually looked to see how balanced it would all end up, though.


I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page. I'm good with that, and MG's summary post plus the follow up items.

FYI for anyone interested, TPK games has a short series of "Feats Reforged" that turn them into scaling feats. The best ones seem to be on the level of Porphyra, while some of the worst ones didn't really help much, but it might be worth looking at.


Main thing I don't see is the Elephant in the Room Feat Taxes... Otherwise, that looks pretty close to everything.

A question from me: if the game is Level X, is that the limit for a single class? Or can the gestalt trade-in for the +6 of templates exceed X?


I'm on board with almost everything, as others have said; stat generation and new classes are the main things I don't want to change, because that means actively reworking the core of the character.

I like the idea of having closer equivalence between the games for ruleset, as I've had to adjust several things on Eirikur thinking the ruleset was actually the one we are using for Henric, etc.

I really like these games and the ability to use everything that's interesting. Like MG, I am pulling from some things I've had for years and never played with, and I have also bought new material to look at because of these games - I am interested and want them to succeed.

@Bizan: I don't think we need to simplify things to speed up combat, so much as have an "attack plan" in place for the character. That helps limit the options that need to be considered.


It might be good to take a step back from the details and lay out what the goals are of any system changes... If it is mostly to try to streamline options, what is the "pain point" of having those options? Is there too much book keeping on your end to keep track of things, too much disparity between characters, something else entirely? Speaking for myself, I have several systems besides memory alone for tracking the hundreds or thousands of options for things. I have LOTS of notes on Evernote and Dynalist, and when I actually use something for a character, I typically make sure to put down where the crunch came from.

EDIT: Specifically for common theming, it would be easy to just make a rule saying that within a theme any class with "talents" can take any other classes talents. I think most fall under the 1 talent per two class levels progression, and so are very roughly equitable (not balanced against the rest of the class features, but oh well).


The Unfettered Prince wrote:
Honestly, I'm failing to see the benefit of customising these base classes. For the most part, wWe already have characters at the ready and games underway.

I agree. I like playing with the classes as-is; if we are going to change that to a point buy, or add some point buy options on top of things, that's fine but changing the basic classes out doesn't seem to help solve a problem or meet a want.

@Seb, what is the goal in your class design? Reducing the number of available classes without dropping options, streamlining compatibility, creative expression, something else?


I'm interested in the idea of prime stats - sounds like a simple way of getting the stat you want to the thing you want. With the power level of these games and 3PP content, we can do that already if the player has enough resources/knowledge. This makes it easier on those who haven't read far too many supplement books.

If the sub stats are what you ran in previous games with the main stat being broken into two sub-abilities that can increase/decrease against each other, I actually liked that. @MG, it's not too complicated if thats the one we are talking about, and is completely player-optional.

I do have to side with MG on percentile stats though; I think it made sense in the scale of ADnD, but not with the power level we are looking at in this hybrid ruleset.


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I'll throw my two cents in; Kirthfinder has much better scaling feats/abilities, frequently tied to skill ranks or investment in skills. On a personal level, I enjoy the martial focused class design much more. There are a lot fewer feat taxes, it's easier to get in full attacks/ equivalent abilities and still stay mobile, etc. The class design is much more cohesive as well.

I'm good either way. Kirthfinder does present some compatability concerns in terms of playing nicely with the myriad other sub systems and abilities, but we wouldn't be posting interest in this game if we weren't willing to deal with some level of that anyways. Having looked at Porphya, the nicest thing about it for me was the scaling feats, but even that doesn't matter too much with the high number of feats we can pick + artifacts offering more. Mostly I'm enthused about the concept and the mechanical crunch, regardless of flavor of crunch.


I'm still interested as well. Just working on the champion melee fighter at the moment. Got way too many feats to pick from.


Echoing the others, have fun and enjoy the game! Thank you for the consideration!


Just trying to navigate the website can be confusing. Some of their linking topology is not at all intuitive. Sorry to see someone drop out, as Vrog said.


Storm Dragon wrote:

I think what he's asking is essentially for you to waive Magic/Psionic transparency for that particular ability.

He's not asking to use Psionic Power Pool points to amp his caster level in another class with those, he's asking if he can use Ki points to amp his Manifester Level (the equiavlent of caster level).

Essentially he's just asking if in those and similar Feats he can replace every instance of "caster level", "spell", etc. with "manifester level", "power", etc.

Dragon expressed this much more succintly. That's exactly what I am asking.


Sebecloki wrote:
River of Sticks wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:


Quote:
Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

yes, as long as the parallel is clear. Give me an example.

Some lower power examples I was looking at: Ki Infusion, which can increase caster level by spending ki points and Magic Trick for Mage Hand. Ki infusion would be manifester level checks / spend ki for a temporary bonus to manifester level, Magic Trick would apply to Far Hand rather than Mage hand. I think there's a few more I have in my notes, but things like that. I'll have to find it, but there was an epic or divine ability (I think) that allowed concentration on spells as a free action 1/round for one spell, or something like that. The analogue would be concentration on one power 1/round, etc.
I'n not sure about this -- ki points seem more equivalent to a resource pool like grit (Swashbuckler), stamina (Fighter), or insight (Inspector). I'm not seeing the direct parallel to psionics, which are equivalent to caster resource pools of spells per day or power points (for the Spheres classes). It seems like the equivalent would be using grit or stamina to boost caster level, not psionic power points.

Erm.. Looks like I linked the wrong thing. Here's the correct link: Ki Infusion

Specifically, it's a feat that allows you to spend points from your ki pool on enhancing your arcane/divine caster level. My question was whether there could be a mechanically analogous feat doing the same thing for psionic manifester level.


Sebecloki wrote:


Quote:
Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

yes, as long as the parallel is clear. Give me an example.

Some lower power examples I was looking at: Ki Infusion, which can increase caster level by spending ki points and Magic Trick for Mage Hand. Ki infusion would be manifester level checks / spend ki for a temporary bonus to manifester level, Magic Trick would apply to Far Hand rather than Mage hand. I think there's a few more I have in my notes, but things like that. I'll have to find it, but there was an epic or divine ability (I think) that allowed concentration on spells as a free action 1/round for one spell, or something like that. The analogue would be concentration on one power 1/round, etc.


Sebecloki wrote:
Tenro wrote:

1. Can the feats on artifacts be in excess of the original quantity of HOPF/Mythic HOPF?

2.1 Given that an epic feat is 1/2 (from the artifact total of 42), what is the value of a mythic feat? Of an HOPF? Of a mythic HOPF?

2.2 above you said mythic is 1/2, should we presume HOPF as 1 and Mythic HOPF as 1? Or 2?

1. No.

2.1-2.2 I'm not sure; I'd like to hear some opinions on this.

If we cannot exceed the 16 HOPF and 8 Mythic (I have no problem with that), then attaching them to an artifact should "cost" the same as the resource used to get the HOPF; a regular feat (1/4) for HOPF and a mythic feat (1/2) for Mythic HOPF. It doesn't matter if it's a personal slot or artifact slot unless being disarmed of that ability is part of your character idea.


@Sebecloki, if we are running with the artifacts at CR 42 as suggested earlier, are we also using the scale MG suggested with it? A regular feat is 1/4 a bonus, an epic feat is 1/2, a divine ability is 6 and a cosmic ability is 36?

If we are, can we a) equate a Mythic feat to the same 1/2 point of bonus cost the epic feats get, and b) use the epic feats from the 1.6 Epic Pathfinder Conversion Document?

Finally, a question more for my own characters, though I think a few other people were running psionics as well. If there's a mythic/epic/divine/etc ability for spells, can we assume an analogous one exists for psionics?

EDIT: One more question... There was never any mythic / epic material, officially published or otherwise, for Path of War (That I can find), but there was some material for Tome of Battle (3.5). ToB Stuff and ToB Epic Feats The material here is actually community homebrew rather than official 3PP, but is the only material I've found that works with higher powered games for Tome of Battle/ Path of War. Can I use some of the material from here if I run the particulars by you first?


Throwing my health together here...

Stats: Str: 8 / Dex 13 / Con 14 / Int 10 / Wis 12 / Cha 15 pre-race adjustment.

Health: 6d8 ⇒ (7, 3, 2, 2, 3, 5) = 22

Still need to make a few equipment selections and pick my feat. My original Background idea doesn't fit anymore, so I need to look a bit more on that.

EDIT: So that would be (7,5,5,5,5,5) for 32 HP, plus CON (+2 per level) and 10 HP from Fighter 1, for a total of 56 HP.


Fabian Benavente wrote:

OK, here's what we have so far...

COMPLETED
bookworm422, female half-orc ranger horizon walker) (PC2?);
Vrog, male Canith human (dragonmarked?) artificer (party);
Trscroggs, male? warforged wizard (party);
Trscroggs, male dragonborn monk (party);
Tharivol, male dragonmarked elf bard (party); and
Two-Hands, male kalashtar fighter (arcane knight) (PC1)?

INTERESTED
G.A.L.
Sapiens
Anthorg
River of Stix

Did I miss anyone?

The original deadline is for Friday October 4, 2019 but I want to know who out there is still working on a PC. If no one is out there, then I may wrap it up and start the game sooner.

Those that are completed can start generating stats for me to look at if you have the time.

Questions?

Game on!

@Fabian, I am going to have to relunctantly withdraw... Still very interested, but some things came up IRL and I won't be able to focus on a new game for a while. Thank you for running a game on the forums!


I've got two concepts in mind; they are a pair of fraternal twins. She's the first sword of the kings champion, as a in your face tank, damage, and debuffs. Legendary fighter / vizier/ unchained rogue / harbinger with Umbral blade and great mind and Amplifier prestige classes, and magic user :Psion.

The other concept is less well defined at this stage, and MG's concept is pretty similar - a stay in the shadows troubleshooter, tactician, party buffer and knowledge dispenser. Not necessarily doing the dirty work, but ensuring it gets done, and working for the queen. He'd be the more thoughtful, have a plan, have a contingency type of character whereas the first sword is a "run in and break the obstacle" type.


@Fabian, I like the fluff around the Keepers and think I'll go that route. I'd like to go with the College of Swords, and was wondering if there are any Fighting Styles that you would allow as thematic to include on their list? With a double scimitar both Dueling and Two Weapon Fighting don't actually do anything beneficial, which is fine if that's the way it is - I still like the rest of the class/concept.

The idea is that his patron ancestor was one of the founding warriors of their society; an almost impossible patron to "perfect". The responsibility and weight of this requirement - as well as its difficulty - is going to be one of the primary motivators for him. Whenever he uses an inspiration on Blade Flourish it will be either channeling his ancestor, or attempting to surpass him.


Monkeygod wrote:

You said 'if nobody else has objections'. I'm objecting, lol.

Some examples:

Cosmic Toughness

Your HD become D100s.

Exclusivity

You can only be affected by one opponent each round.

Heavy Eradication

100% chance to overcome crit immunity.

Legendary Ability Score

Single ability score doubled.

Etc, etc, etc....

I say we just choose to avoid the high powered craziness as a gentleman's agreement... though to be honest, I really don't have a problem with anyone picking something from that. We aren't competing with each other, and the combats will be pretty crazy anyways. When else would we get the chance to use this kind of material?


Storm Dragon wrote:


These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:

Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign info

Additionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.

Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?

HOPF is Horrifically Overpowered Feat, yes. You can take 16 total, and a separate pool of 8 Mythic HOPF. You have 16 CR of templates, which can be traded out 1:1 for prestige class levels.

Up to 8 levels of prestige classes (from the 16 CR pool, from HOPF, or other methods) can be added to HD for the purposes of BAB, skills, saves, and caster/initiator/manifester/veilweaver/etc level. These additional 8 HD do not count for anything beyond those things, though; no additional ABP, no additional abilities on a "every X HD" chassis, etc.

Its also ABP +2, and the Chopping the Christmas Tree linked in the original bit. Finally, the domain/deity thing is an Immortal Handbook: Ascension thing, and most of us are still figuring it out. MonkeyGod seems to have the best idea of it?


Dotting and a question... I've loved the idea of a double bladed scimitar wielder since I read about them in Wayfinders. Would an elven Eldritch Knight with the Revenant Blade feat be acceptable? Or a Changeling Bard? I'd love to combine the two, but the double weapon is Elf only.


Jorgund is a dragonkin, a native of the city. He's been attached to the city guard for some time now, having started as a raw recruit offered the choice of starving on the street or joining the guard. It did not take long for him to get bored of walking in circles for a living, however. He began noting who had privilege and who did not, and reasoned that power - and magic - were the differentiating factors. Through a combination of luck, stubbornness, and the general greed of the denizens of the underworld, he made a pact with a fiend to gain power. He stayed with the guard, playing off his newfound abilities as if he were a sorcerer; but now he is the magical artillery that gets to go out and mess things up, and Jorgund is much happier with his life for that change.

Mechanically, Edjet Dragonkin with 1 level of fighter and then Warlock (Fiend and Blade) the rest. He fights with a staff and shield, or with fireballs. Not much room in between...

@GM, what about the spells from MHH? Are they gated by domain/circle/etc, or open to anyone with the spell on their list?

EDIT:
Wealth: 1d10 ⇒ 2

Another question on HP; does "whichever is better" mean that we roll, and take the higher of the average or the roll?

One last question: It's from Wayfinders, but would you allow the Ruby of the War Mage? Common, requires attunement, allows a single weapon to be used as a focus and takes 10 minutes to work.


I assume the 3d8 on the Shillelagh cantrip on the KPOGL site is a typo, and that Dragonkin get the regular 1d8 damage as in core?

Linky


@GM, would you allow the Changeling from Wayfinders? It looks like Midgard might have a "Mirror Folk" analogue in-setting, if I'm reading the references correctly.

I'd love to play a Hexblade Warlock; I was running a first level one in a game recently that got let go by the GM.

Edit: The changeling idea would likely be creating a position of influence within the Zobeck movers and shakers. If Changeling is a no-go, I'll probably go for something like a Soldier Dragonkin with the Fiend Patron with a level of multiclassed fighter at first for a dueling style and extra HP, and he would be the magical adjunct to the city guard or something similar.


Tenro wrote:
16 HD for anything and everything, with the PrC levels adding up to 8 more that provide "virtual" HD that don't advance things other than what that PrC class contains (more CL, BAB, saves, but NOT higher DCs from templates or race that are based off of HD and NOT factored in for HOPF stuff.)

This is what I meant to say. :P


I'm definitely in favor of capping at 16 for effective HD for HD scaling abilities or templates, with a max BAB of 24, max CL of 24, max IL and ML of 24, etc (not counting regular level boosting items like karma beads that normally exceed HD caps).


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Not quite the full rule list, but here's my personal cheat sheet for everything we "get" pre-choices by the player.

Basic Package Bonuses at Level 16:
+5 Competence to attack rolls, damage rolls, armor class, saving throws, and initiative (Chopping the Tree)
6 bonus feats (Chopping the Tree)
4 bonus Gift/Knack feats (Chopping the Tree)
+3 to all Attributes (Chopping the Tree)
8x +2 to one attribute; cannot be the same one in a row (Chopping the Tree)
50% chance to bypass hardness, DR, and incorporeal or ethereal miss chance (Chopping the Tree)

4x +2 to one attribute (Mythic, standard)
8x Path abilities from two paths each (Dual Path Mythic)

50 regular feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules, 16 levels of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side))
26 Mythic Feats (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules 8 tiers of (1/level + fighter progression) on each side) )
Elephant in the Room Feat Tax Rules (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)
Signature Skill and Combat Stamina (Sebecloki's Feat Houserules)

No more than 8 Mythic Horrifically Overpowered Feats
No more than 16 Horrifically Overpowered Feats; Gestalt and Prestigious can be taken multiple times.

16 CR worth of templates; can trade out for PrC or Base Class levels at a 1:1 basis. Up to 8 levels of PrC progression, Gestalt, or Prestigious adds to BAB, HD, Saves, Skills, etc as well as class features (Discussion in recruitment thread)

Deflection AC +5, Ability scores +6/+4/+2 or +4 all, Natural Armor Enhancement bonus +5, Weapon Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Armor Attunement +4/+3 or +5, Resistance to Saves +5 (ABP+2)

Wealth is an open question... Per both Chopping the Tree and ABP, we should have ~ 1/2 * 1/5 = ~30,000 gp.


Monkeygod wrote:

Right now, we are 16/16/10/10, but we have 16 free levels that can be used for a PrC/base class(that isn't one of our gestalt classes) and/or templates.

We have a few options how to decide how this all works:

1) The PrC/base class only adds their class features(the special section. Ie, sneak attack, bloodlines, bonus feats, rage, etc) and do not improve HD, BAB, Saves, etc.

Assuming we go this route, I'm unsure we'll be able to face the foes you wanna throw at us.

2) The PrC/base class adds everything from their levels, however we stop gaining level based benefits at 16(more feats, ability score increases, potential for more HOPF, etc).

With this option, we should be able to fight those monsters.

3) The PrC/Base class adds *everything*, including level based benefits, but stops at 20. We still gain an extra 6 levels worth of BAB, saves, skills, etc.

This is the option I feel most comfortable as able to handle your threats.

Between the extra feats, the few more levels of boosts from ABP and Christmas Chop, and possibly four more HOPFs, I think we should be fine.

None of these options interfere with the NPC leaders still being 20/20/10/10. We end up being 16/16/8/8 + 'something', but we don't gain the capstone of our classes and we aren't gestalt with those bonus levels.

Also, there's nothing stopping you from giving the NPC leaders the +16(or more) free levels, making them that much more powerful than us.

I think 1 or 2 would be sufficient. 3 gets crazy in terms of how it interacts with everything else.

2 is at least contained; you get only the extra bits added on top last, and they don't give anything else (ABP, HD based abilities, etc).

My preference is 1; it's the simplest. Out of HD, BAB, Saves, and Skills, Saves and Skills are pure numbers; increase attributes, increase those results. BAB can be handled with Offensive Combat Training (HOF) and Mythic (HOF), allowing up to a BAB of 24-26.

HD is more complicated. Purely for HP, more CON/CHA/Etc will get you there. As will feats like Poryphra's Toughness, Akashic Essence of the Immortal, Psionics Psionic Body, etc. Actual HD based abilities (Half level + attribute DCs, pick an ability every 4 HD, etc) are the only things there isn't really an advancement for, and I do not think there should be advancement on those.

If we went with #1, I would suggest house-ruling a corollary HOF called Offensive Magic Training or something like that, affecting CL instead of BAB. I think that would be sufficient.

Just as an aside, without even trying and taking only four feats, one of them Mythic HOF Weapon Finesse, I could make my character get STR+DEX+INT to attack and damage, with +WIS when flanking and +1/2 INT as an insight bonus from Harbinger levels. Assuming even stat point buy up, thats a +23 or so in every ability, for +80 to 103ish, before BAB and other buffs. Offensive Combat Training could easily add another 22-24 to that.

Edit: Actually, Save DCs have Ability Focus and the Divine abilities allowing you to add another mental attribute to DCs... Making it possible for a first level spell to have a Save DC of 10 + 1 + 23 + 23 + 4-6 = 73 or so with some investment.


Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I definitely felt that HD-related bonuses should end at 16, so I agree there. Anything that scaled off of HD should stop with the 16 'true' levels.

I dunno if health will be an issue one way or another; if it will, I'd recommend treating the 16 'bonus' levels as being "virtual" HD. Basically it's literally just extra hit-points, with no scaling of abilities.

At the very least, that's what I've done. I've only calculated the Christmas Tree to level 16, the Auto Bonus Progression to 16+2, the HOP Gestalt/Prestigious stuff to 16, etc. etc., and I don't see any distinct drop-off in power.

This is what I have done as well.

EDIT: Depending on how the +BAB, HD, Skills, and Saves of the 16 CR class levels are ruled might exceed those, but I am not planning on it at this point.


Just missed the edit window... I cannot find it on d20pfsrd, but if you google "immortals handbook ascension" it shows up.


Ah. For spell damage, your best bet would be ways to add free metamagic for maximized empowered spells, and spells uncapped by HD; then take a caster PrC with some of your 16 CR allowance. I’ll double check the template and get back to you on that.


Divine abilities from the Disciple template can allow you to add an additional mental score to all DCs.


Then I definitely Prefer harbinger and claiming opponents to throw penalties out. I'll run with that over the Warder idea.


As long as the debuffs stack, there isn't any reason to not have multiple debuff focused builds. The champion's debuffing is going to be centered around Debilitating Injury, Overpowering Guilt Psionic Power (Assuming that HOF Magic User can do a Psion progression and not just Arcane/Divine), and massive intimidation bonuses (should be -5 to -7 on demoralized enemies). I thought about Harbinger, but wasn't sure there'd be enough enemies to Claim to make a useful penalty.

Maybe Seb can chime in on whether we are likely to have one big baddie or multiple? I prefer Harbinger, but Armiger's mark was a better single target debuff. As long as someone else is wanting to go that route, I have no problem doing something differently.

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