MrMagpie wrote:
I have a situation that I need advice on, and I'd be most grateful if one of your Pathfinder/D&D veterans can supply said advice.(1)
...Halfling Rogue with optimized levels of Stealth ... after his Halfling Wizard was killed to ensure that it doesn't happen again. (2)
His typical strategy involves either beginning every encounter already in Stealth, or stealthing as soon as the opportunity presents itself - he's never far from cover, and he prefers to spend as much time as possible in trees or bushes. (3)
He then starts sniping every enemy in range, repositioning himself through cover as necessary. He took the alternate Racial trait that Halflings have available, "Swift as Shadows", which lets him reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5, and the Stealth check penalty for sniping by 10 (4)
Thanks to his optimized Stealth skill, CR appropriate enemies have little chance to detect him even as he pokes them full of arrows (he essentially has to roll close to a 1 for enemies to spot him) (5), and he argues that since the enemies haven't spotted him, they shouldn't get their Dex bonus to AC versus his attacks, and therefore he should also be able to get his Sneak Attack bonus every round. (6)
... intentions to take even more Stealth related items and feats - for example, he plans on taking "Hellcat Stealth" - or a level of Shadowdancer - so he can enter Stealth even while directly observed (7), and he plans on making use of Invisibility spells and effects as well to make himself even harder to detect. (8)
I'm doing my best to be reasonable and understanding, but I fear his powergaming tactics are taking a lot out of the game, as the player of a character that virtually can't be detected is unlikely to be threatened by anything short of some rather contrived situations, such as having every enemy spellcaster come equipped with Glitterdust, or having a dragon burn half the forest down to get him out of his hidey-hole (and even then, he has Evasion!).
Am I misinterpreting the rules and letting him get away with murder(usually literally)(9)? Or is he right in apparently believing that Stealth at extreme levels really does equal near invincibility?(10) I told him that I need to take his character under advisement, but I can't seem to be able to find a satisfactory, and fair, solution thus far. Or am I merely blowing things way out of proportion, and a nigh-undetectable Rogue isn't really that big of a deal in the long run?
Any sage advice will be most appreciated, and I would like to thank you all for reading through this post and taking the time to answer!
1) Longtime DM here of many years and have had an unfortunate turnover of many players due to deployment conflicts (was in the service for part of my DMing career). What I'm getting at is I've seen a whole lot of players as some come on and off deployment, and every player brings his own baggage.
2) Sounds reasonable. Sometimes losing a character stings.
3) I'm going to ask a question here because the devil might be in the details. I can't tell if you're exaggerating or not. Do you mean that he begins every *combat* encounter stealthed? Or virtually every RP, trap, hazard, and combat encounter? Does he hide under a table at the local bar? Does he stealth in the market square in the center of town? If it sounds like I'm trying to be funny, I'm asking honestly here.
Now, if he's starting every combat encounter already stealthed, why are you letting him get away with this? Why is the party tolerating this guy trying to hide from them?
If he is actually stealthing all the time, I would probably have a private talk with him and ask him why his character is an insane person. I would explain to him that unless he's specifically trying to roleplay a character with advanced paranoia, he should stop hiding while the party is camping for the night. If that doesn't sink in and the behavior continues, I would probably take further measures. Maybe dock him XP. Maybe something more peer-related. NPC's will slowly begin to avoid him because they're beginning to doubt his stability. Maybe people start to think that he's dangerous. It doesn't have to be a mob with pitchforks and torches - that is... unless he really does do something crazy.
4) Let me stop you there. He's highly skilled at hiding. Got it.
5) I can help you here. There's no way to sugarcoat this. He's wrong, and you've been letting him get away with it. It sounds like you both have studied the rules of stealth as they're written and are reading them to the letter while missing a couple of gems that favor you and screw your halfling buddy.
Stealth is *not* invisibility. Stealth is concealment. In fact, if you end your turn out of concealment you are no longer considered to be hiding. I'm sure you already know this too - I'm more stating this for emphasis and for the inevitable post by somebody in the peanut gallery.
This is important: If you are being observed *in any way*, you are not hidden. It doesn't matter what he rolls if you let him roll his stealth skill. Barring special feats to the contrary, if eyes (ears or nose either) are on him, his stealth roll won't change that.
I'm going to make an example here of just your halfling rogue and an encounter, and I'm going to structure it as if the rest of the part does not exist so that nobody is distracted.
Your halfling begins a combat encounter stealthed against 18 orcs. Since he is hidden, and the rest of the party does not exist in this encounter, the orcs are blissfully unaware of him. He can snipe one of them for standard unmodified damage, or he can attempt to close to within 30 feet for a sneak attack (sneak attacks at range are normally limited to a maximum of 30 feet).
Now, regardless of how many attacks he makes or how many orcs he kills in his opening volley, I'm going to bet that he didn't get them all, and here is where it gets interesting for you.
This isn't the PC game of Skyrim, where you can fire an arrow at somebody and then 30 seconds later they forget about it and go back to their routine. He just shot (and maybe killed) one of these orcs. The other 17 of them are now aware that there is an archer around here somewhere. They also are not stupid. They get behind cover and start watching for movement. If they have missile weapons available, some of them will ready them and wait for an opportunity to shoot at their attacker. If he takes a 2nd shot, their cover grants them all an additional +4 AC. If they have a defensive caster, that caster starts casting abjuration spells to buff everybody's defenses.
Now if things stay as they are, your halfling has to beat about 17 perception checks per round just to maintain the status quo, and he won't be able to do this for long because each hobgoblin has a 5% flat chance to spot him on a natural 20 - but this almost doesn't matter anymore, because I've yet to meet a player that will just stay hidden round after round and won't try to take another shot or action of some kind.
Back to what I said above. Stealth is much less powerful than you're both giving it credit for. Stealth isn't invisibility, it's *concealment.* He didn't turn dark or transparent, like you see in a computer game. He's just ducked down behind a trash can or a light pole. It doesn't matter if he rolled a 15 to hide, or a 150 to hide. The stealth roll vs perception check doesn't determine degrees of success or failure - it determines only success or failure. Failed a check? The hobgoblin didn't see where he shot from this round. He still knows that the arrow came from somewhere, and if he witnessed the hit he even knows from what direction.
What is concealment? Well, by the rules... it's a 20% miss chance. That's it. Once they know he's out there, his huge stealth advantage is pretty much used up. Now they're trying to figure out where exactly he is. All they need to do is figure out where he *could* be or wait for him to peek out at them again. Obviously you're not playing in dense jungle, because if you were you'd be giving your hobgoblins cover bonuses and concealment of their own. How many possible hiding spots are available? And here's where you look at how you've been designing your maps. Are you granting too many hidey-holes?
If the Hobgoblins note that they can see everything but behind the rock to the left, the tree straight ahead, and the shrub to the right, guess what 17 pairs of eyes are now studying intently. Now that they know they're under attack, nobody's going to fail to notice somebody popping his head and bow out to take another shot. That rule of maintaining stealth exists to give him the chance to evade and escape - not to continue an assault with impunity. Basically, the stealth skill is what you use when they *are not* looking for you - and you use it to avoid arousing suspicion. Hobgoblins certainly understand ambushes and can react appropriately.
From the Stealth Check description: "If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth." and "you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind."
So if 34 hobgoblin ears are straining to hear movement and 34 eyes are watching all possible hiding places, the player cannot use stealth! What he can do is sit there quietly and maintain his concealment. If he pops out from concealment to make another attack while being observed, it doesn't matter what he rolls, the hobgoblins will see him.
Now your hobgoblins have some options available. They can send out a few hobs to investigate the rock, the tree, and the shrub one by one, knowing that if anything tries to sneak away it will certainly be seen. As soon as the hobgoblins have gotten around the object concealing him, they will see him. If the group advancing is sufficiently large, they can surround the halfling and that'll pretty much be that, so lets examine another option and say that they all stayed behind and readied crossbows and javelins.
With 17 hobs, you can easily designate 2 hobs to watch each hiding spot (out of the 3 in the example) while the other 11 choose one location and bombard it with missile fire. They don't have to actually see the halfling in order to hit him, and he'd better hope that crossbows and javelins are all they're packing. Being military types, they might have access to flasks of oil or greek fire, or hostile potions or poisons. Whatever the mode of their attack, they will attack normally.
Hopefully, the halfling thought ahead and chose either the rock or the tree to use as his hiding spot, because a bush isn't going to grant him a cover bonus. Such concealment gives him a flat 20% miss chance. If you feel like being very generous, you can rule that it's a big, dense bush he's hiding in and grant him total cover for a 50% miss chance, you old softy.
Now, the rock or the tree would be better options. Both of them will give him a flat +4 AC bonus due to cover.
Sorry for how long number 5 was. I will be brief from here on out.
(6) It stands to reason that with the distraction of an entire group of adventurers, he might remain unobserved for several rounds before somebody sees him - remember, his hide rolls no longer really matter once they're actively looking for a hidden archer. Until then, If he's within 30 feet he can sneak attack at range.
(7) Ever play hide and seek? Nobody "enters stealth." You hide. If you don't have a good hiding spot, you're seen. Even a man wearing a ghillie suit is pretty clearly visible once he's been identified. The stealth skill is what you use when the enemy is NOT looking for you.
That hide-in-plain-sight skill is pretty much the ninjas trick you see in movies. Sure, it looks like the ninja dissapeared, but when the camera pans up he's always straining against two beams on the ceiling, hoping that somebody moves on before his arms give out.
(8) I think this is actually a good thing. Invisibility seems easier to adjucate, and hiding while invisible has got to be more effective.
(9) Yes. You are misinterpretting the rules, and so is he.
(10) No. Stealth equals concealment. Stealth rolls of 10 are the same as stealth rolls of 1,000, as long as nobody saw (or heard) you roll. 20% miss chance.
Okay, enough bulletins. Let's put this into perspective. One guy playing a relatively low-power class, specializes in not being seen and then uses those skills to not be seen. All in all, this could be way worse. He could have played a sorcerer and be nuking the crap out of your encounters, or he could be wading through your enemies and whirlwind attacking from within their lines.
Remember that while he's off hiding, things are happening in the group that he isn't a part of. He might miss important conversations in the group. He will fail to see actions that he might wish he had (like if the fighter pockets the occational potion off the fallen enemies after a battle). Enemies that don't see him will focus their attacks on the rest of the group, which means damage he isn't taking is adding to everybody else's burden. Focus fire on the mage or the healer a few times when it will really inconvenience the party and you might have your own players yanking him out of his hidey-hole.
If he's always hiding, treat him like he's hiding. Turn to the other players more often, and him a bit less. Have NPC's fail to address him. Try to remind him that his character is being... well, weird, and remind him of it through gameplay.
I really hope that this helps you with your situation.
