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After much trial and error I dipped a slightly autistic, left-handed, near-sighted weasel into the font and it turned into a vial. You are welcome, Drejk. As for the beta test: you have my... ah hell, I'm in.
The PCs had access to divinations, but did not think about it at the time. I played the tempo pretty fast and heavy so there was little downtime and a constant feeling of urgency.
Thanks for that... I figured it might have been from over simplifying the campaign that took a few months down into one post. I had the Assassin talk as she fought, and let the truth be known. They felt like complete dunces when they realized how completely manipulated the had been.
Good storyline, not cruel but highly anticlimatic. Although jarnoths tactics are more common amongst Greens then Blacks +1 The Players didn't find it anticlimactic... maybe I should have just kept that example to my self.
I can sum it up in one word that still strikes a nerve with my players... Jarnoth The campaign started normal enough... standard fare really. Goblin raids on a town resulted in a NPC Mage getting killed. the party investigated and were eventually able to determine the town woodsman (Ranger) had done the deed and framed a small tribe for it. the confrontation took place outside of town and went kinda like this: Ranger hears them coming and ambushes from up in a tree with Entangle. All of the PCs fail the save, then arrows rain down from the trees.
At this point they hear rumors that the queen of the realm has been kidnapped (or ran away with) her paladin protector. This was just story line fluff at this point. The party goes to investigate the army mentioned in the note and eventually find it. a PC wizard is brave and uses some kind of shape change to get in and learn the army will be moving on the town tomorrow, and is able to poison the ale of an Ogre on the way out. The town follows the wizard's advice and sets up fortifications in the town square and braces for the attack. The next morning the army rides right into town lead by an Ogre Magi who after looking around a bit and finding the hard core of resistance at the town square... orders the outlying structures sacked and burned. The wizard, dumbstruck with angry town folk glaring at him, states "I'm not a tactician, I'm a wizard!" They have to break cover to save what they can of the town and eventually fight the Ogre Magi who with flight is able to stay out of range and rain pool cue sized arrows down upon them. (party is hating arrows at this point). They eventually defeat the Ogre Magi and find instructions on him to meet up with the rest of the army and prepare to attack the capital... signed "Jarnoth" The party takes the warning to the king who begins ramping up defenses, and tasks them to retrieve his wife from the blackguard that took her. the Kings investigators have tracked them to an island so the party goes out to confront the Blackguard at the entrance of a cave. The Blackguard open dismisses any love for the queen saying that he kidnapped her for his true love, and even if they make it past him there is no way they will save her. Large fight ensues and Blackguard dies, saying that "Jarnoth will make you pay." The party enters the cave and descends a tall spiral stair into a huge cavern filled with water... the stairs carved into a stalactite which ends on a small island. there is a 5' wide stone bridge barely under the surface of the water leading 20' across to another island where the queen's hand can be seen waving frantically from under a stone covered pit. Glimmering at the bottom of the lake is a horde of gold and items, and one PC spots a break in the surface of the water rippling in a serpentine motion. At this point everyone is thinking DRAGON! So when the 4 Alligators attack they are caught off guard... one PC in heavy armor is dragged off the island and begins to sink like a stone. I allow him to be saved, but not before he spots a HUGE form swimming underwater... Much bigger than the gators. Their adrenaline still pumping from the gator fight they decide to risk the bridge and make it 1/2 way before Jarnoth's (an old Black Dragon) head breaks the surface on the opposite side of the island and breaths a line of acid directly down the bridge hitting every PC before sinking back into the water. I explain that if they want a reflex save they are off the bridge and swimming. (Every one declines the roll.) They rush across roll the boulder away and grab the queen. on the way back across the bridge Jarnoth leaps over the bridge and splashes down on the other side. The splash makes the party make a reflex save to avoid being swept off the bridge. They make it back to the stairs and begin the long climb battered, burned, half-drowned, and scared to death. Jarnoth surges out of the water to stop them from escaping. The party's ranger has a cracked idea and makes a called shot at the dragon's eye. Jarnoth roars loudly and drops back into the water apparently injured. As the party heads back to the capitol they keep eying the skies for shadowy forms. They pass the devastation of war where the humans have completely decimated the foe... it was a slaughter. They are lead directly to the throne room and to the king with the rescued queen. The queen, upon getting close to the king unleashes with a Cone of Cold and drops the disguise. WTF?:
The "Queen" is actually a half-breed daughter of Jarnoth and the Ogre-Magi who had lead the army. Jarnoth had used the army of humanoids as a ruse to draw attention from the real threat, knowing there was no chance of victory. The half-breed daughter had seduced the Queen's Defender and turned him Blackguard. They then kidnapped the Queen. The Queen was disposed of (eaten), and the party was allowed to "rescue" the assassin. Yes, the whole thing had been an elaborate plan from the start. Even the ranger's shot to Jarnoth's eye had done no damage... it was just a ruse to let them think they had gotten away, not let go. The PCs defeated the assassin and managed to revive the king who was on deaths door, but to this day wonder what other plans Jarnoth might already have in motion.
by all means... please do! :D
On the topic of Cursed Items: I had a rogue come across a skeleton in a dungeon which had a black ring on one of it's hands. Upon pocketing the ring (so the party wouldn't see it) the skeleton crumbled into dust. Said rogue decided to try it out immediately and was shocked when the ring started to talk to him! The ring introduced itself and informed the character that it would heal him and would cast necromantic spells for him in return for the pain the PC would inflict upon others.
The ring then warned the rogue never to remove it. "It would be a bad thing to do." Slowly over the next few sessions the rogue, who was having a ball with his new ring, was noticed by the other players as not having much appetite and becoming unhealthily thin and pale. When the other characters finally made the connection to the new ring they tried to talk him in to removing it. He refused, of course, so they jumped him in the hopes of saving him from himself. The rogue fought for all he was worth and the other players eventually had to cut the finger off to separate the two. The party leaped back in shocked horror as the rogue crumbled into dust... all of his HP had been converted into charges.
After informing the PCs that they would be fighting against a necromancer with plans of lichdom they rolled up characters accordingly... I remember a Paladin and a cleric, as well as others who spent lots of coin on Holy Water. After hacking there way through 3 dungeon levels of undead, ranging from Skeletons and Zombies to more exotic less identifiable kinds. Eventually they get to the grand chambers and can hear the chanting just beyond. They have almost prevailed! There is but a single guard on the door, and spotting bone peaking through holes in the clothing they attack with a holy vigor only to find that their holy water is useless, and the darn thing refuses to be turned! They eventually destroy it, but have completely worn themselves down to the point the boss killed them all. The evil-ness?: The last guard was a Bone Golem.
I figured a Necromancer shouldn't be so stupid to defend himself with only one type of magic.
Bachelors of Computer Science actually, so a bit of both. I did so enjoy my Logic and Critical Thinking course in college... quite astute!
Remarkably similar to what I had house ruled... I also gave the Orc Blood as well as the Elf Blood abilities (I didn't figure that would be overpowering) I had a plot device (a minor artifact) that had different abilities depending on the bearer's race... only that combination of bloods could unlock it's full power though.
What does Psionics mean to you? Psionics is forcing a change on reality through force of will alone. (No flinging balls of bat guano or polishing a glass rod with a bit of wool, nor waving holy symbols required.) ...this requires rigorous discipline and a willingness to believe the unbelievable which ties it nicely to the Far Realms and madness. This opposed to Arcana, which is more of a science of tools and implements and words of power (Sorcerers take to this science naturally with an innate understanding of it's principles.)... Also contrasted from Divinity, which is serving an other planar entity or elemental force in order to ask for their intervention on your behalf. Corrolary: In order to bend an iron bar I could:
Good examples of psionics that are not called psionics:
How can I get you to buy a psionics book and use it in your campaign? Print one! :D Collaborate with DreamScarred Press... they are made of win! Drop the psionic races... there are no Arcane nor Divine races. Best of intentions aside, this only serves to alienate psionics from the mainstream. Allow for psionic variant core races with alternate favored classes... (or maybe an option to forgo the favored class skill or HP bonus for a +1 power point per level. :) ) What is an absolute deal-breaker? Do NOT limit psionics to mind only effects unless you are going to rewrite every other caster in the system and impose similar limitations. There are entirely too many mindless and immune to mind-affecting monsters out there for this. I look at the other 2 branches capable of performing such feats.
Keep the point based system! (moo)
Heh, I also once played a full human throwback bred from a pair of halforcs in a Orc dominated tribe. :D
that is one thing that has always bugged me... A human can have a child with a Human, an Elf, or an Orc.
...why can't a Elf have a child with an Orc? if the similarities are close enough both ways for humans doesn't it follow that they would be for Elves and Orcs? A = B = C; therefore A = C qed.
Bear in mind that those are races of a single species, and what is in DND (naming convention aside) is multiple species. A more apt comparison would be Homo Sapiens mating with a Homo Erectus which likely would have different results based on parentage as many genetic traits are dominant or recessive on gender specific chromasomes. This is the case with Ligers. The gene that controls growth is on the X chromasome (female side) for Tigers, resulting in larger females than males. But on the Y chromasome (male side) for Lions, making the males larger than females. Put a Tiger X and a Lion Y together and you get a double dose of growth.
Never underestimate what a guy will do to survive... torture lowers lots of inhibitions (as do drugs and alchohol).
Don't forget my biggest pet peeve... WereRats should NOT EVER be more powerful than WereWolves. Period. ( What kind of insanity made the designers decide that it was a good idea to make the Canines have to gang up to fight a single Rodent? )
The Jai Alai is also a good fit for those stats and double as a club in melee. Ooo... and we could call it a Hoopak! :|
Sweet! Thanks again.
can you post links to those changes as well?
@Gnome-eater I can't use the online character sheet without registering? ...why bother with that if I don't game online. Maybe if you had the option to use the forms to fillout and then print it off without registering, or register and be able to save the character and use it in games online.
@Salama: I really love the fillable PRPG beta character sheet you created... any chance of having the at least some of the fields auto calculate?
Well, if your psionics were the same as magic then a Null-Magic wing of the local prison would keep Psions and wizards and evil cultists all contained... barring that you would need to have a Null Psionics Field and a Null-Magic feild.... But Law enforcement on the cheap eh.... alrighty I'll bite
DRUG EM! ...seriously, if they are in a stuppor they stay put. or infect them with Cascade Flu and/or Cerebral Parasites or have them lashed up to where they cannot comfortably rest in order to recover their powers. or have a guard on duty to come poke the psion with a stick every hour to prevent a solid 8 hours of rest. or have a court yard infested with Brain Moles or all of the above? .
Just arm your brute squad with +1 Mindcrusher Suppression saps and beat them into submission. they'll rip through any protective psionics that are active, and when they wake up it'll be with a headache and without power points... this solution also prevents them from using any Psionic Feats as you can't focus if you have no power points. The main issue here is that in portraying Psionics as different you inadvertantly make psionics more difficult to combat. if you used the default rulings that Psionics are the same you could just have a single wiz/sorc/cleric with Dispel Magic and not need the Suppression enchantment on the saps.
Re: GP cost for Powers with an XP component... What if you used a Ability Damage or Drain mechanic (Presumably CHA to be neurtral between INT and WIS Manifesters) instead of a gp cost. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. Lesser restoration (potion) 300 gp cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage
I did suggest a will save mechanic earlier in this thread...
My rational is that it makes a Dump-stat useful, allows for a decent Intimidate check, and links the intensity of persona and rage.
Consistancy, Not Exceptions. I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else. ...to make up for the loss of HP and to discourage Barbarians from using Charisma as a dump stat they would get a new class feature: Imposing (Ex)
.
Consistancy, Not Exceptions. I think that Barbarians should follow the rules and have a D10 like everyone else. ...to make up for the loss of HP and to discourage Barbarians from using Charisma as a dump stat they would get a new class feature: Imposing (Ex)
.
Sure there have been times when I told a rogue they couldn't take ranks in (whatever) due to some reason or another... and I've also told Fighters they couldn't use steel weapons in a campaign. but there is a big difference between a DM saying that in my campaign you can't do something and the rules book saying you can't. I guess what I'm saying is that if the majority (by far) of characters can't do it should it really be a skill in the first place?
Very Interesting.... Kudos for doin' the dirty work!
Are there any other skills that have requirements like this? Will there be a clause added to "Swim" to prevent desert dwellers from taking ranks? Will I be able to purchace ranks in "Burrow" for my dwarf? If I play a Gith plane hopper will I be able to take ranks in "Astral shifting"? Will new breeds of aberrations require ranks in the new and improved "slimy tenticle shuffle" skill to get around competently? .
I think it's absurd to say "Hey, there's a new skill! ...but you cain't use it."
Sweet! the topic is still alive, ...just in a seperate thread. Please see my suggestion here for replacing Concentration as a skill without rolling it into Spellcraft.
Sweet! the topic is still alive, ...just in a seperate thread. Please see my suggestion here for replacing Concentration as a skill without rolling it into Spellcraft.
Any other non standard uses for Concentration? I remember someone mentioned The Book of Nine Swords? Edit: it was Tome of Battle - the Diamond Mind discipline requires it for something. Basically what I did is carried over the DC to a Will save if there isn't another skill (besides Concentration) involved. if another skill IS involved I set the Bonus to the other skill DC equal to 2 for every 5 of the Concentration check DC. (ie. a DC 15 concentration check turns into a +6 modifier.)
Or just add 5 to the DC of the skill check, to keep it a single roll.That's doable, but what if he suffers a successful AoO? Skill DC + damage (or half) dealt? Also, is adding 5 sufficient to differentiate between varying sources of distraction? Vigorous or violent motion, for example. Maybe not I was suggesting the mechanics of the rule... as for the difficulties maybe something like this:
If there is not a applicable skill, such as when casting a spell, make a Will save DC 10 + the above modifiers. Casting a Spell defensively adds further to this check twice the level of the spell. Possible applications in other areas of the book: Equipment:
Death and Dying:
Psionics:
Or just add 5 to the DC of the skill check, to keep it a single roll.
What in the world do yo mean it doesn't exist? A rogue cannot be ribbed by others in a effort to make him fail? seriously that situation cannot happen? ever? at all?
I've yet to hear a good reason why snorkeling isn't part of Dragon Riding school, either. The part about Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Druid/Bard Acadamies neglects to say that it IS part of the training... By the rules if the rules do not say something IS, then it's not. (Oh and there is also not a part about Wizard Acadamies.) The thing is if avoid spellcasting fumble is part of your spell training, and by assumption Spellcraft, why is Spellcraft not a Mandatory skill in order to cast Any spell. I can have a 20th Level Arch mage raining death on all... without a single rank of Spellcraft.
Hmm, I think that the knowledge skills are still usable for nonspellcasting classes. Though not in this game, the Artificer should have Knowledge because he doesn't cast spells. Merge Spellcraft, Psicraft, Knowledge Arcana, and Knowledge Psionics into a single INT based skill which I'll call Lore. Alternately, omit the Psionics skills for a non-psionic ruleset, with the understanding that if Psionics are added later they also willl use Lore. It's still usable by non-casters who want to be experts on all things unnatural. (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, ancient mysteries, psionic traditions, psychic symbols, and cryptic phrases) You can use this skill to identify constructs, dragons, magical beasts, undead, psionic monsters, astral constructs, and psionic races their special powers or vulnerabilities.
... Makes it as nice as Tumble for a rogue! As for your solution, I need to think about it. I like the idea that you have a mechanic that doesn't have one skill substituting of another. I'm rather proud of it too... :D Please, let me know if you find fault with it.
Aww gee :D
Mediation and mind over matter, walking over hot coals... I would say that maintaining a mental state is more in line than harmonizing with the flames cooking your feet.
See we don't disagree at all! You think Concentration is not really a skill too! My whole issue whith the way things are in the Alpha is that they are trying to merge two disimilar concepts into one skill. I do not think that Concentration fits the Feat mold though as everyone can concentrate, but with varying levels of success. My position regarding the Skills:
Merge Psicraft and Knowledge psionics. PURGE (not merge) Concentration. Make Concentrating on a skill check a modifier to the actual skill check. Have abilities that do not require skill checks (yes I'm looking at you Spellcasting, gaining Psionic focus, walking across coals) force a Will save with DCs based off the old Concentration skill.
Well, they do both allow you to identify spells that are being cast... But no, Spellcraft is the skill used in the process of creating magic items.
Trying to adapt to the damage I already took? ...how does that work exactly?
Yes, but we are talking about how hard it is to cast a spell in a storm, not that the prudent thing to do is to cast from inside a cave.
Well, Concentrate was a class skill, but that doesn't mean it was a mandatory subject at Hogwarts.
And thus the higher your level, the better you are at ...skillfully adapting to things like a rapier in yer sleen.
Not really, Psicraft is the skill used for making Psionic items
Yes, a High Armor Class would be preferable to being hit... that wouldn't make you make a check at all! But what we are talking about here is the ruling that you have taken damage. "Damaged during the action." (DC = 10 + damage dealt ) Dodging, or avoiding, or simply staying home that day does not answer the situation at hand. You have been hit, Not what?
Most if not all skills can and maybe should allow an alternate stat, much like your example above... I don't think you should need to burn a feat for something like that. My take on Skill stats and alternates: (untried)
Why? knowing the best types of components and materials to use in making a Wand of Magic Missle does not logically translate into the ability to focus your mind on the task of casting a spell while distracted.
That is Kinda what I proposed isn't it :D There just needs to be a definite ruling on how to deal with these situations.
That is why in the early part of the thread I suggested a compromise solution using a Will save... the higher the Character Level the easier thay will be able to ignore distractions. Granted this approach favors some classes over others, but those classes are traditionally the more methodical ones... it kinda makes sense. Fleshing it out a bit more: <paraphrased from the d20 RSRD> "You must make a Will save to prevent being distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability. Using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity or requires your undivided attention does not require a will save to prevent distraction, but imposes a increase to the DC of the skill check. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity or require your undivided attention, you need not make a Will save to avoid being distracted. If the Will save succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost." Will Save DC ...... Distraction
10 + half of continuous damage last dealt ...... Taking continuous damage during the action. Distracting spell’s save DC ...... Distracted by nondamaging spell. 10 ...... Vigorous motion (on a moving mount, taking a bouncy wagon ride, in a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a stormtossed ship). 15 ...... Violent motion (on a galloping horse, taking a very rough wagon ride, in a small boat in rapids, on the deck of a storm-tossed ship). 20 ...... Extraordinarily violent motion (earthquake). 15 ...... Entangled. 20 ...... Grappling or pinned. (You can cast only spells without somatic components for which you have any required material component in hand.) 5 ...... Weather is a high wind carrying blinding rain or sleet. 10 ...... Weather is wind-driven hail, dust, or debris. Distracting spell’s save DC ...... Weather caused by a spell, such as storm of vengeance.
Actually here is the Rub, I do NOT advocate keeping the Concentration skill. OK, pick up your jaws and listen... I do say we need a way to handle all the possible situations which may occur in it's abscence. for simple scenarios like distracted climbing and Diplomacy a increased DC on the skill check works fantasticlly. (did anyone here think I argued against that?) For everything else, including spellcasting the ideal solution to me is NOT a skill check! situations not based on skills should not be resolved by a skill check. Your example is perfect, you don't go right back into what you were doing because you now have 10 ranks in Collate, but because you have the time and experiance in what you do. that is why in the early part of the thread I suggested a compromise solution using a Will save... the higher the Character Level the easier thay will be able to ignore distractions. Granted this approach favors some classes over others, but those classes are traditionally the more methodical ones... it kinda makes sense. Do I expect Paizo to use this idea? Not really, but they are welcome to... I just want a system that works.
Psicraft/Martial Lore work pretty much the same way as Spellcraft for arcane and divine spellcasters, so I really don't have a big problem with it. How is Lore of any kind supposed to fortify the mind enough to ignore effects like Pain, weather, bumble bees and feathers... those things that do not involve spellcasting at all, do not come from a source that forces a saving throw, and happen frequently in many a core setting.
Reread the thread, I have listed 3 ... off the top of my head.
And it isn't (I'm so regretting even mentioning Psionics in the first post. If you ignore that post and continue reading you will sse that I have focused on core rules set situations where the Concentration check being rolled into Spellcraft (or any other skill) doesn't really fit the bill. As far as those few abilities that can distract you, what is the DC on the will save or skill check to avoid dropping an item you are keeping away from halfling wenches who are tickling you? (there, a 3rd example.) ... I don't really think the skill is needed, so I'm definitely in favor of the "roll in" to Spellcraft. Not needed, so roll it into Spellcraft? gads, why not roll it in to Alchemy instead. Because it does not fit the purpose of the skill. Period. Spellcraft is a Knowledge skill (Based on INT), How is knowing 3rd level Necromantic spells are tinged blue and reek of sulpher supposed to help me shake off the ogre's club and finish my spell?
How about feed back from gamers who have used systems like D&D since they had to ink their own dice with the little white crayons that came with them. Honestly, in an Alpha test the idea is to rough out the product, stir up ideas and I beleive that the feed back (from qualified gamers or not) is helping do just that.
Honestly Spellcasters arn't my concern either it's the non spellcasters who may find themself in a position where they need to Concentrate on something to the exclusion of all else, which is the void left by getting rid of this skill.
Um, did it three times in this thread... once in this post.
How is mechanically removing a Core skill not a Core issue? If I have a Psion or even a Ninja (Complete Adventurer) who can Jump like mad does that make rolling Jump into Athletics not a core issue?
Absolutely, ideal uses for concentration as well (or even the Will save variant), specifically: Ignore Caltrop Wound
Willpower
The boulder is easily too heavy for the paladin to move himself, it's all he can manage to hold the boulder in one place. Now if he were just going to wait it out, a CON check sounds like a good answer. if he were trying to lift the boulder then I'd say a strength check was the choice. but if he just needs to hold still and ignore the goblin trying to find a chink in his armor he needs to simply devote himself to ignoring the distractions. My point is that Spellcraft is not required to cast spells AT. ALL. Being required for creating new spells and items does not make it essential for a wizard. and simply saying it's required to cast spells in difficult situations in the alpha is a cop out as much as saying that a swim check is required. the description and flavor of the skill does not lend itself to that approach.
My point is that Spellcraft is not required to cast spells AT. ALL. It does not determine your ability manipulating magic. I can have a Lvl 20 Wizard with 0 ranks in Spellcraft. I can NOT have a 20th level rogue Climber with 0 ranks in climb. I would completely back rolling Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft together.
My suggestion would be this: When a PC takes damage, instead of making two skill checks (one concentration, one something else) make one skill check and increase the DC of the roll by the amount of damage taken. Thus Spellcraft is what is used for casting spells. Climb would be used when climbing, etc.And what about situations in which no other skill applies? Scroll up I've given 2. If it is a task the PC would normally succeed at, make it a base DC of 1, 5 or 10 and go from there. OK, at least it's a guideline of sorts... As a DM I do not want a rule removed without something to take it's place. now how do I determine if the Paladin would normally succeed at holding back the boulder while a goblin stabs his spleen? (one of my earlier examples)
Basiclly you roll the same skill which defines your knowledge of what spells and magical effects look like and allows you to identify what spells are being cast at you. Spellcraft. (Don't agree with it but ok.) |
