Wolvorine's page

Well said Wolvorine ...

You are absolutely right, and I agree the bleed attack scales against opponents -- obviously some opponents suffer more than others (a 15th level wizard with an 8 Constitution is in BIG trouble, no matter what).

However, I don't believe someone should *automatically* bleed to death. Otherwise, a 1st level rogue could sneak attack an elephant, and then back off. The elephant will *automatically* die (after some time and suffering).

People burn to death in real life, but D&D allows a Reflex save to stop burning. I'd allow a Fortitude save to stop bleeding (what the save is, is a lesser issue for me).

I guess the biggest *game* problem is that when choosing rogue talents, the bleed attack is such a no-brainer, either it is over-powered, or the rest of the talents are underpowered. There's no variety here, because the choice is one-sided.

My 2 farthings...

Oh definitely, like I said right up front I can understand seeing it as being a problem as a Balance issue, and it very likely is. When I'm designing I'm always torn between trying to make things "good and right and stuff" and my own personal gaming tenets of "All things/creature are NOT created equal" "Life isn't fair" and "Does it make Sense?". Sometimes those two sides of me don't mesh, and one has to suffer. :)

Kind of like the burning thing, I'd happily give a character a save to stop burning... if the character did something to try to put themselves out. Otherwise they'd friggin' burn. But, I'm kind of a evil bugger like that. At least I'm fair about it, and apply the same rules to myself when I'm playing. "Aw man, I should have had more brains than a tick, and pulled a drop and roll instead of attacking last round. I'm still on friggin' fire!" lol

But yeah, whoah I wandered there (lack of sleep, sorry). Anyway, it makes Sense the way it works. You pop an artery on an elephant, an elephant's going to walk around until it drops over dead. But it does pose a mechanical unbalance that (possibly many) people will find unacceptable.

((*Shuts up now before he keeps rambling*... sleep at least once every 48 hours or so kids, it keeps you from sounding like an idiot. hehe))

Shisumo wrote:

Xuttah wrote:

bleeding sneak attack needs to be limited to 1 bleeding attack per target

Bleed doesn't stack with itself, so this is more or less already the case.

So six sneak attacks doesn't mean six bleeding wounds? That's good to hear, otherwise there would be a balance issue. The other thing I see as a problem here is that the wound won't close on its own. If you even did one point of sneak attack damage to an animal or similar beast, it would just die of blood loss. Seems wrong to me. Maybe it should bleed for a number of rounds equal to levels of rogue .

I can understand how you could see this as a problem as a balance issue, it's pretty solid as a logic issue IMO.

The ability does 1 pt./SA dice/round. Now an injury that's doing that kind of bleeding and not stopping without attention indicates to me that it nicked an artery or a vein pretty good. And a wound that nicks an artery or a vein pretty good will, if left alone, bleed you out.
Also, you pointed this out rather correctly:

Archade wrote:

Either that, or run bleeding like someone on fire ... each round the target makes a DC 15 Fortitude save. If they make it, they aren't bleeding, if they fail, they continue to take 1 point per 1d6 sneak attack in bloodloss ...

The problem with that is that you get diminishing returns as you go up in level. How often is even a lowly ogre going to fail a DC 15 Fort save? Now picture a 15th level barbarian. This makes the talent next to useless.

Exactly, you get diminishing returns. Now, the way it's structured currently, the amount of HD (and thus, HP) the opponent has, the longer it's going to take them to bleed out if they don't address the bleeder. This is offset by the fact that SA damage scales up with the Rogue's level. Thus, the higher the Rogue's level, (presumably) the higher the CR of the opponents (granted, this could happen as a larger number of opponents as easily as higher HR opponents, but run with me here). So you've got the Rogue (often) facing stronger, tougher opponents to whom he's doing more SA damage (and thus more bleeding damage - I don't see anything in the SA description that states that SA damage caps). Which means ideally a victim of bleeding attack should bleed out at a relatively similar speed whether the Rogue is low, medium, or high level (although this argument is based solely on projection and expectation, and playtesting could obviously prove it wrong).

But, it seems to me that the ability is intended to simulate a viciously precise attack that inflicts a wound that could lead to the target bleeding to death unless some form of (magical or mundane) first aid is applied. It looks like it does a pretty good job of that. It also stands to (as opposed to necessarily Does) balance itself against the Rogue's opponents as the Rogue rises in level vs. the opponents' HPs, which is good too.
The only problem (unless my projecting is incorrect or just too optimistic) is whether or not you want the possibility for something to bleed to death or not.

Agree? Disagree? Or did I only manage to ramble for a page or so? :)

To be honest, I haven't gone over this in much detail.

However, I would caution against using real-world martial arts in a fantasy game; nothing brings out the vapidness in rules lawyers when you start trying to base something on a real-world counterpart. I'd suggest using real martial arts for ideas, but generalizing their effects in the game. For one thing, the real-world martial art might not exist in the game world by the same name. Besides, at some point someone (possibly even an NPC) is going to want to combine, say Akido and Coepera into a hybrid form and you're left with the question of how to emulate such a hybrid, or it may have already occured with students cross-training martial arts or attempting to master "all the styles" for a BBEG-type takeover of the world.

That's why I included this line in the beginning:

If you find the presence of martial art style names in your fantasy world bothers you, I heartily recommend you call the style(s) whatever you feel like calling them. Call Aikido ‘Northern Leaf’ for all it matters. It’s the mechanic of the thing that makes any difference. Names come and go, but the actual names are used here so you know what we’re talking about.

As far as cross-training goes, it's actually set up to be totally possible to cross train. Few people argue that Bruce Lee was not the greatest martial artist at least in our age, and he cross-trained his wiry arse off like a madman between Wing Chun, Boxing, Fencing, Capoeira, Dance... Linda Lee has mentioned the huge library of books he had on all manner of subjects that were the foundation of Jeet Kun Do. So if someone wants to cross-train, more power to them I think. And if someone managed to do it well enough to put together a collection of abilities and proclaim the foundation of "a new art", sounds like good campaign RP material to me. :)

But given the list of styles I'm trying to build, and the number of talents in each tree in each style, if someone managed to master every style, he'd be such an obscene level that at that point he could takeover the world no matter what class he was.
The only part that I've had reservations about is players who are actually martial artists, who would of course know more about whatever they study/practice than I do. I've got a few belts in Shotokan, but that doesn't make me anything like a broad martial artist expert. But really, you have that danger with anything. The guy who does fencing can either b&*@! up a storm that X or Y fencing mechanics are off, or he can just shrug it off because it's not supposed to be an actual manual for learning fencing, and if game designers only wrote rules for things they were in-depth masters of, game rules would be pretty thin. :)

If you have any problems finding info for Bando, Kali/Escrima, or Brazilian Ju-Jistu, I might be able to help out.

Actually, I am finding it rather difficult so far to find any decent info on these styles that is helpful. Lots of background and history of the style kinds of things, lots of broad description, but I need actual maneuvers and descriptions and whatnot to be able to make the talent tree abilities. And I haven't been able to find good sources for that yet.

So yeah, if you have or can find good sources, hit me with them. :)

Wolvorine-after reading the section on capoeira, I'd like to suggest something for the Rolé manuever. Allow the monk to move back 5 feet, and if any opponent attempts to make an attack of opportunity, the enemy must first endure a pre-emptive like trip attempt. If the trip attempt succeeds, the would-be opportunity attacker is tripped. If the trip attempt is unsuccessful, the enemy gets to execute their attack of opportunity. If that suggestion seems too powerful, how about having the enemy make a Reflex Save (maybe with the monk's level and dexterity as the Base DC) in order to carry out the attack of opportunity? Of course, you might want to consider whether or not the Improved Trip feat shuld be a prerequiste for such a manuever.

As for the Tesoura, it sounds something like a hurricanrana from professional wrestling. Still, it could be a lot of fun...

Hmm, not bad on the Rolé suggestion(s). The first is probably the better option, as it looks like it’s actually less complicated than the second. (I never did understand what was so friggin’ hard to understand about AoO’s).

Tesoura, yeah it’s not too far removed in effect. Those two are difficult (frell, the whole style is a bit tricky, there’s a lot of trip-like maneuvers). Actually, thinking on it more, the Rolé maneuver isn’t so much a Trip attack as it is a defensive attack that targets anything stupid enough to walk into it. The Tesoura is the big Trip in the style’s list as it stands. The Rolé could actually consist is a free 5’ step, allowing the Capoeirista a free flurry of blows AoO to anything that tries to interrupt his 5’ step. Or… something to that effect (those spinning windmill legs and all).

Hey, raptors are cool...How about other animals like a mammoth, rhinoceros or even a gorilla for a totem animal? A rhino-totem barbarian would probably excel at making all out charges. (Check out the Racial Feats thread in the Races and Classes Forum. There are some feats for dwarves, half-orcs and humans that could fit well with a rhino-type mentality). A gorilla-totem barbarian might be good at climbing, intimidation tactics, and grappling.

Well let’s see, so far the totems I have listed for the barbarian (I figure there’s always room to add more, I think the list I’m using is mostly, if not entirely, the same as the one found at www.d20srd.org) consists of:

• Ape Totem
• Bear Totem
• Boar Totem
• Eagle Totem
• Horse Totem
• Jaguar Totem
• Lion Totem
• Serpent Totem
• Wolf Totem
• Wolverine Totem
Rhino could be interesting, actually. Ape and gorilla are about the same thing, the ape totem barbarian trades his initial Bar fast movement at 1st level for “At 1st level, an ape-totem barbarian gains a climb speed equal to one-half his base land speed (round down to the nearest 5-foot interval). For instance, a human, elf, half-elf, or half-orc ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 15 feet, while a dwarf, gnome, or halfling ape-totem barbarian has a climb speed of 10 feet.”
All of which is still a bit in flux, I haven’t finished work on the thing (I have a lot of that, lol).
The list of animals I have in the Anima currently (I think I’ll add the Rhino, I like that) were mostly taken from Native American mythology sites, and making a good disctinction between some of them would be pretty hard actually, so it’ll eventually have to be edited for usefulness. But my current list is:
• Alligator/Crocodile
• Armadillo
• Badger
• Bat
• Bear
• Beaver
• Bobcat
• Bison
• Boar
• Cat
• Chipmunk
• Coyote
• Crow
• Deer
• Dolphin
• Eagle
• Elephant/Mammoth
• Falcon
• Fox
• Goat
• Hawk
• Horse
• Hummingbird
• Mole
• Mountain Lion
• Mouse
• Otter
• Owl
• Rabbit
• Raccoon
• Raven
• Salmon
• Scorpion
• Shark
• Snake
• Spider
• Squirrel
• Vulture
• Walrus
• Weasel
• Whale
• Wolf
• Wolverine
So theoretically I could go hog-wild with Totemic Barbarians.

Speaking of grappling, that's a good list of fighting arts, with such goodness as Muay Thai, Hapkido and Karate. Don't forget about the various styles of Karate such as Enshin, Uechi-ryu;, and if you want an all around blending, how about Shindokan? Just as a side note, the Burmese have a fighting art called Bando, that reflects a mix of Chinese and Indian fighting arts, and it also has animal-named substyles. As for wrestling, either traditional Greco-Roman wrestling or Catch Wrestling could be interesting.

Kali/Escrima could be worth exploring. Getting hit in the head with a rattan is no fun. I think traditional Escrima from many years ago also was also taught with something called hilot, which encompassed various healing techniques. Moreover, I believe one facet of escrima is about disabling your opponent's limbs, and thus, thier ability to fight.

Anyhow, it sounds like you are on to something.

Hmm, I wanted to steer clear of various styles of karate, because you can get really bogged down with that. The various styles of Kung Fu (snake, dragon, tiger, etc.) tend to be stylistically diverse, being attempts to emulate this thing or that thing.

Kali/Escrima, Bando, and Jui Jitsu are good suggestions; I’m going to have to go looking around and see what kind of info I can find that makes for good crunch for those styles, definitely. Honestly this martial arts system would probably have been done a long time ago if it weren’t for the difficulty of finding info on all these styles that translates into good crunch easily.
Then again, there’s also been the fact that I haven’t wanted to do too much, given that these were core class variants that are intended to be in the (eventual, if I EVER finish it) campaign book for my setting… I wanted to leave some room for future expansion of additional Totemic Barbarians and Martial Arts styles. Which isn’t to say I don’t want all the suggestions, feedback, and ideas I can get, or don’t want to work them out ahead of time. But I was trying to keep my plate from overflowing at any one time. :)

But, much like the Totemic Barbarian, the intent of introducing martial art style talent trees is to open up the option for monks to be wildly versatile within the scope of a single class. So the more (and more distinctive) styles the better, IMO.

You know, some of this stuff I’ve never shared publicly, but while these forums are (compared to others I’m used to) slow as mud, I’ve gotten some pretty interesting responses so far. Maybe the Pathfinder devs are watching to see where this thread ends up (I don’t know where I’ll end it if it doesn’t die naturally, actually).
But it is cool seeing that the ideas I’d hoped people would like as much as I did when I decided to start writing them are interesting to others if nothing else.

Wolvorine, good job with the totemic barbarian. Now imagine a tribe that had low-level monsters or even prehistoric animals (like a sabertooth tiger or the velociraptor) for totems.

The monk martial art trees are also interesting. I never thought that I would see capoeira in a D&D game, so kudos for that. If you want to add other trees, may I humbly suggest stuff like Lethwei (Burmese Kickboxing, where you can use kicks, punches, elbows, use knee strikes and even head-butt your opponent), or Kali/Escrima (which has unarmed and weapon stikes). Plus, I'd love to see what an accomplished judoka or Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter could do in a grapple situation.

I do have one observation about the drunken master style. Instead of the Weapon of Opportunity feat, how about getting the Caught Off Guard and/or Razor Sharp Chair Leg feat from the Pathfinder rules (pp. 69, 72-73), as an automatic bonus feat at a certain level, even if the character does not satisfy the feat's prerequistes?

With all that in mind, keep up the good work.

Oh man, I don't think I want to even consider the barbarian abilities-per-level for a velociraptor totem! lol Brain go 'splooshy.

Lethwei and Kali/Escrima you say... interesting. The list I've been working with so far consists of:
Aikido
Boxing
Capoeira
Cobra
Dragon
Drunken Master
Eagle Claw
Hapkido
Karate
Monkey
Muay Thai
Praying Mantis
Savate
Sumo Wrestling
Tae Kwan Do
T`ai Chi
Tiger
White Crane
Wing Chun
Wrestling
Wow, you know just from memory I would have said I had Jiu Jitsu in there. Must have been confusing it with T'ai Chi (how? Don't ask me, I think it's all about the cadence of the syllabalic count when you say them out loud.. look, Elvis! lol)
I think Lethwei may be similar enough to Muay Thai to skip, but Escrima is an interesting choice I haven't looked into. And lord knows, with a half-brazillian step-daughter, if I overlooked Capoeira I'd be shot, drawn, and quartered. hehe
As far as the Drunken Master note, you're right I am going to have to go back to this file and update it reflect Pathfinder changes such as Razor Sharp Chair Leg and the like.

Wolvorine wrote:

Well no, but I would expect Albert to have some wicked ranks in Knowledge skills, and if he were a wizard, some equally wicked ranks in Spellcraft.

And, maybe I didn't read carefully enough, why are we assuming that with Pathfinder a 1st level Wizard will typically have an Int of 18-20? That's in the Pretty Darned High range.

Keep in mind that a human, half elf, or elf wizard will have a +2 INT racial bonus so getting an 18 in an ability is a lot easier and less expensive using point buy. Even so, I don't think that's an unreasonable point of view, I'm not sure about "Pretty Darned High" but several players in my group don't have 18s in their primary attributes. Would you consider it's reasonable to assume the wizard has a 16 INT? That means he has to roll a single 14 (unless of course you are running a race without an INT bonus which is also possible).

So the 16 INT is gives the wizard +3 INT bonus... We're no longer talking about Albert Einstein, now we're talking about the math professor at UCD. He's a sharp dude but Einstein he ain't.

So he gets 5 skill ranks at first level, more skills than anyone except the ranger and the rogue. He will put a rank into Spellcraft and the rest into knowledge skills. So 4 knowledge skills with 1 rank, +3 for class skill bonus and +3 for INT... +7 in 4 knowledge skills. That's a pretty good knowledge of 3 disciplines outside his primary study.

Keep in mind Wizards are primarily focused on learning about magic, it's their bread and butter. Einstein was a genius in physics and mathematics but was he a zoologist? A botanist? Architecture? An expert on comparative religions?

Knowledge (Arcana) is probably the closest thing in the D&D world to a PHD in Physics. I expect a wizard should be good at that, and have a smattering of knowledge elsewhere... that's pretty much what you've got.

I'll grant you all that, and it makes sense. But you have to admit, just looking at the wizard entry and seeing skill points that low for "The Brainy" class is slightly jarring. :)

It's a lot of text to read in one go, you have to admit.

I like the idea of rage powers, and the way they can be customise a character.

It's good to see suggested builds, to spark ideas.
Would members of a tribe have a mixture of totems?.
This doesn't matter so much for parties where the barbarian is among different classes, but if you were to have an 'all-barbaric campaign', the players may miss the variety if all their tribe follow the same totem, and thus, fight the same way (a problem with monks in every edition).
A mixture would give everyone a different chance to shine.

*chuckles* You should see my ranger class, especially after I spliced in the goodness that Pathfinder brought to the ranger. Now that's a lot of text. ;)

As for barbarians and Totems, the Anima is a minor pantheon in my world, so totems are chosen/chose on an individual basis (think Clan of the Cave Bear mixed with Native American mythology). Broud is brash, crass, blustering, and charges in lead by his anger -- The Boar chose him to be his totem. Dark Clouds Over Water is sly, wiry, cautious, and not always trustworthy -- The Snake chose to be his totem. That kind of thing.

(And while I'm groovy with the barbarian discussion, I've had so much fun tinkering with them, I was hoping someone would have some opinions on the Monk post and the martial art talent trees, too) :)

Hmm, okay just out of curiosity; is this thread being mostly overlooked, mostly ignored, or are these forums just that slow? I'm too used to ENWorld's speed where you tend to get half a dozen opinions in the space of a day. :)

Well considering Wizards primary attribute is intelligence there is a certain synergy here. With Pathfinder this is amplified even more A 1st level wizard will typically have an INT of 18-20 or 6-7 skill points per level, higher than anyone other than a rogue or a ranger with a high INT score. By 8th level his INT is likely 20-22 for 7-8 skill points per level... at 16th level the Wizard is likely have many more skill points than even the rogue.

Even if this were not the case, I would still suggest that the rogue should get more skill points. The wizard spends his time/ energy learning to cast spells. Rogues spend their time/ energy breaking into things and sneaking around.

Would you expect Albert Einstein to be an expert infiltrator, better than a trained operative?

Well no, but I would expect Albert to have some wicked ranks in Knowledge skills, and if he were a wizard, some equally wicked ranks in Spellcraft.

And, maybe I didn't read carefully enough, why are we assuming that with Pathfinder a 1st level Wizard will typically have an Int of 18-20? That's in the Pretty Darned High range.

Not sure if this has been asked before, but on looking at th Alpha 3 release I'm wondering...

I know that in the SRD a Wizard's skill points are listed as (2 + Int modifier) x4, and Pathfinder gives a Wizard's skill points as 2 + Int modifier.

Now I know that being the 'skill monkey' is generally the Rogue's shtick and all, but it's always bothered me that the class that is supposed to be, by and large, the most learned and intelligent has such a low allotment of skill points to spend.

Anyone in Dev want to talk about why the Wizard gets so few skill points, when logic would seem to indicate that they would get the most, if not at least equal to the Rogue?

Hmm, I won't try to incorporate it into the monk class right now, too little sleep and too much impromptu work, but this is the opening of my working document and a sample of a couple of styles that are (at least partially) filled out:

((This file makes extensive use of material taken from Blood and Fist by RPGObjects))

At first level a Monk chooses a martial art style. This is the style the monk has studied during his monk training and will determine his fighting style. While this choice does not initially grant any benefits in addition to the monk’s default abilities, it does allow the monk to progress his style’s talent trees once the prerequisites are met.

A monk may acquire a talent (if he meets its prerequisites) every odd-numbered level.

As the monk advances in levels, he may progress along the path of mastery of his style. Some monks eventually branch out, studying other styles in part or whole. There even exist, in very rare cases, monks who go on to master many styles, becoming living weapons of death.

If you find the presence of martial art style names in your fantasy world bothers you, I heartily recommend you call the style(s) whatever you feel like calling them. Call Aikido ‘Northern Leaf’ for all it matters. It’s the mechanic of the thing that makes any difference. Names come and go, but the actual names are used here so you know what we’re talking about.

Aikido
Aikido is a style that focuses on redirection, neutralization, and control of opponents. The style is strong in grappling and joint lock maneuvers, using leverage and motion to negate the advantage of an opponent’s size and strength. Aikido also focuses on handling multiple foes simultaneously.

An Aikido practitioner provokes no Attack of Opportunity when making Trip or Grapple attacks.
The aikidoka has Meditation as a class skill in addition to his Monk class skills.

Aikido is an internal style whose attacks are modified by the character’s Wisdom.

Aikido Grapple Tree
• Cradle Pin
You grab your opponent’s arm in a lock that can drive him to the ground—or break his arm if necessary.
Prerequisite: Unarmed Strike, Wis 13+, Meditation 3 Ranks.
Effect: On a successful Grapple check, you may either inflict an extra die of grappling damage or attempt a Trip attack with a +4 bonus on your opponent as an attack of opportunity.
Special: Cradle Pin is a “submission hold.” If you use this maneuver against an NPC in combat, the ordinary must make a Will save (DC 15) or submit.
• Choke Hold
Once you have hold of your opponent, it’s easy enough to cut of his air until he falls.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Stunning Fist
Effect: If you pin your opponent while grappling and maintain the pin for 1 full round, at the end of the round your opponent must make a Fort save (DC 10 + ½ your level + your Wis mod). If the save fails, your opponent falls unconscious for 1d3 rounds.
• Defensive Throw
Deftly stepping out of the way, you use your opponent’s own attacking momentum to throw him.
Prerequisites: Cradle Pin, Dodge
Effect: If the opponent who you have chosen to receive your AC bonus from Dodge attacks you, you may make a Reflex save against your opponent’s attack roll. If successful you can make an immediate Improved Trip attack against that opponent which counts against your allowed attacks of opportunity this round.

Aikido Multiple Opponent Tree
• Human Shield
You use a grappled opponent as a shield
• Attack with Foe’s Fists
You may attack with a grappled opponent’s limbs
• Offensive Dodge
On a successful dodge, you can take up to a 5’ step and attack another opponent in the same action
• Advanced Attack with Foe’s Fists
You may attack with the limbs of up to two grappled opponents

Capoeira
Capoeira is a style that mimics a rhythmic dance, using acrobatic movements and focusing on evasive defenses and strong kicks and trips in attacking. The style of constant movement makes the capoeira practitioner extremely difficult to predict.

A Capoeira practitioner can make a feint as a Move action, and has Bluff, and Perform (dance), as class skills in addition to his Monk class skills.

Capoeira is an external style whose attacks are modified by Dexterity.

A Capoeira practitioner receives a +1 circumstance bonus to all combat actions when fighting to music (such as a bard’s performance) once the Ginga talent is acquired.

Dance Rhythm Tree

• Ginga
The “stance” of Capoeira is a continuous motion, flowing from the art’s dance origins. This motion can easily bring the Capoeirista into attack or defense posture.
Prerequisite: Dex 13+, Perform (dance) 5 Ranks.
Effect: This stance grants you a +1 Dodge bonus to Defense and a +2 bonus to Initiative.
• Meia Lua de Frente
The “front half moon” is a deadly spinning kick characteristic of the beautiful acrobatic style of the Capoeirista.
Prerequisites: Ginga
Effect: Your Circle Kick inflicts an extra die of damage (e.g. if your kick damage with a Circle Kick is 1d8, this attack inflicts 2d8 points of damage). You may only perform this maneuver once per round.
• Tesoura
This maneuver entails resting your weight on one hand, catching your opponent scissored between your legs, and spinning along your own body’s axis, flipping your opponent head-over-heels.
Prerequisites: Ginga, Dex 13+
Effect: XX
• Rolé
The monk crouches low to the ground, twisting his body and using his hands to support his weight while his legs sweep defensively around him.
Prerequisites: Ginga, X
Effect: [a defensive maneuver allowing the monk to take a 5’ step from an opponent w/o incurring an AoO]
(This one is FAR from done)

Cobra
A form of Kung Fu that emulates the motions of the cobra, this style focuses of striking with the tips of the fingers, aiming for pressure points and nerves.
The practitioner of Cobra style Kung Fu may perform a feint as a Move action.
The practitioner of Cobra style Kung Fu has Bluff, Intimidate, and Pressure Points as class skills in addition to his Monk class skills.
Cobra is an external style whose attacks are modified by Dexterity.

Cobra Strike Tree

• Cobra Strike
With the hand held in the shape of a snake’s head, you strike with the tips of the fingers, attempting to hit joints or nerve points to maximize the effect of the hit.
Prerequisites: Unarmed Strike, Dex 13+, Pressure Points 5 Ranks
Effect: On a successful hit, you deal 1 additional die of damage with an unarmed strike. If using a stunning attack, the target is stunned for 1 additional round.

• Cobra Venom Strike
You strike your opponent multiple times in the same spot, hammering the pressure point before your target can block or counter.
Prerequisites: Pressure Points 10 Ranks, Cobra Strike
Effect: The target of the cobra venom strike suffers such intense pain and nervous disruption that he is nauseated for the round following the round in which he is stunned. Nauseated opponents are unable to do anything that requires attention, and may only take a single move or move-equivalent action per turn.

• Double Cobra Strike
You can perform a cobra strike attack with each hand
Prerequisites: +6 BAB, Cobra Strike, 16+ Dex
Effect: Using your 2nd attack per round, you may perform a second cobra strike with you off-hand.

Cobra Charm Tree

• Sway of the Cobra
With your arm in cobra strike position, you fluidly sway your hand and forearm in hypnotic patterns.
Prerequisites: Unarmed Strike, Dex 13+, Wis 13+
Effect: After 1 round of fighting defensively against a single opponent while performing the sway of the cobra, you can make a Sneak Attack against that opponent as their concentration is clouded by the movement of your arm.

Drunken Master
The Drunken Master kung fu style emulates the behavior of one so completely inebriated that they can barely see. This allows the drunken master to avoid attacks, move about the battlefield, and attack without giving the opponent any way to guess what he will do next.
Drunken Masters can feint as a move action with their Bluff skill.
The Drunken Master has Bluff as class skill in addition to his Monk class skills.
Drunken Master is an external style whose attacks are modified by Dexterity.

Fall Down Drunk Tree

• Stagger
The “stance” of the drunken master style. Stumbling and tripping over yourself as if unable to tell up from down, you are nearly impossible to predict or strike.
Prerequisite: Bluff 5 Ranks, Dex 13+
Effect: You gain a +1 Dodge bonus to you Defense and a +2 competence bonus to your Bluff skill for feinting purposes.
• Fall-Down Drunk
You literally fall down, either to Dodge an attack or deliver a surprise attack—your opponent can never be sure.
Prerequisite: Stagger, Bluff 5 Ranks
Effect: You may make a Bluff check (vs. your opponent’s Sense Motive) to gain a +1 Dodge bonus to Defense by “falling” out of the way of an attack. Alternately, you can “fall” but roll out of it immediately and attack your opponent. This use of the Fall-Down Drunk feat grants the character a +1 to hit and a +2 circumstance bonus to the Bluff skill for feinting.
• Weapon of Opportunity
The Drunken Master may utilize anything at hand as an improvised weapon (although bottles, tankards, and other such items are most common).
Prerequisite: BAB +3
Effect: When using an improves weapon, the drunken master deals his unarmed damage plus 1d4 pts. If the drunken master rolls a 1 on his attack roll, the weapon breaks and can no longer be used.

Like I said, it's all terribly unfinished, but that's where I've been going on Monks using the Talent Tree approach. Every Monk is different, basically, although two Monks of the same style will be similar at least at first. I'm not sure how Flurry of Blows and Quivering Palm will fit in, although I'd like to keep them. Many of the other Monk class abilities would have to go as not applying to each style though.

I like it. The totem themes fit the barbarian class well and help give it flavor.

Wish I could take full credit for the Totem thing. While it's idea I had toyed with since the mid-90's, I don't think it was until Arcana Unearthed 3E or something (I'd have to check www.srd.org I think it is, to be sure) that I templated the Totemic Barb off of. If you notice though, I broke up the barbarian's rage powers as per Pathfinder Alpha 3 and assigned them as I thought fit with each Totem animal. So none of the Totemic barbarians have access to all of them. Actually, I think none of those I wrote, collectively, got access to All of them. But the list of animal spirits in the Anima is monstrous, and only a few of those I have written up, and of those I only posted a few to show the idea. Maybe when I've had more sleep I'll break out the .doc with my work on martial arts trees for the Monk (a work so incomplete it makes baby jesus AND the buddha cry) and see if any of them are completed enough to post for example. It would require a honking revision of the monk.

Of course, all of that work is for a campaign setting, not specifically for Pathfinder. Although given that I am NOT going 4E, and Pathfinder looks better with each release so far... :)

The idea is blatantly and admittedly ripped from D20 Modern (a source of brilliance so far gone mostly untouched IMO). But here is a snippet of the Barbarian Class I've been writing, incorporating some of the things for the Barbarian from Pathfinder Alpha 3(yes, it has section for Defense Bonus and Reputation, the most direct inspiration for how that works comes from 2econd World Simulations, btw). Big parts sniped for various reasons:

Barbarian (Totemic)
Many of the civilizations that produce barbarians worship the Anima. The barbarians produced by these peoples draw their strength from patron animal spirits, called Totems. These Totems grant abilities that make the barbarians more like themselves.
The following are examples; every member of the Anima is capable of empowering a Totemic Barbarian with abilities that reflect its own.
Alignment: Any non-lawful
Hit Dice: d12
Defense Bonus: Average
Reputation Bonus: Poor
Action Points: 5+½ character level
Class Skills: The barbarian’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Key Ability Scores: Strength, Constitution
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the barbarian.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian gains a number of rage points equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she gains an additional number of rage points equal to 2 + her Constitution modifier. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase a barbarian’s total number of rage points. A barbarian must spend one rage point to enter a rage and one additional point at the start of any round spent in rage.
In addition, rage points can be spent to activate rage powers. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action.
Rage points are renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 bonus to his Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration. A barbarian can end his rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rage points spent during the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat.
Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a barbarian gains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage
the barbarian takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three barbarian levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, when a barbarian enters rage, she can choose to enter a greater rage. The bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3. A barbarian must spend 2 rage points to enter greater rage, and must
expend 2 rage points per round to maintain her rage.
Indomitable Will (Ex): While in rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.
Tireless Rage (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage.
Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, she can choose to enter mighty rage. The bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +4. A barbarian must spend 4 rage points to enter mighty rage, and must expend
4 rage points per round to maintain her rage.

Every Barbarian chooses (or is chosen by) a Totem spirit of the Anima. Below are a list of Totem options. Other Totem spirits are possible. Each Totem grants certain Rage Powers to their chosen barbarian.

Bear Totem Talent Tree
A barbarian dedicated to the bear totem does not gain the standard fast movement, uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
->A 1st-level bear-totem barbarian gains Toughness as a bonus feat.
->At 2nd level, a bear-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
->A 3rd-level bear-totem barbarian gains Great Fortitude as a bonus feat.
->Beginning at 5th level, a bear-totem barbarian gains a +4 bonus on grapple checks when raging. In addition, the Bear Barbarian may inflict damage equal to his Strength modifier each round the grapple is maintained.
->Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Increased Damage Reduction, Knockback, Mighty Swing, Powerful Blow, Strength Surge, Terrifying Howl

Horse Totem Talent Tree
A barbarian dedicated to the horse totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, trap sense, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
->At 2nd level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Run as a bonus feat.
->A 3rd-level horse-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Handle Animal checks made with regard to horses or horse-like creatures, and a +2 bonus on Ride checks made to ride a such creatures.
->At 5th level, a horse-totem barbarian gains Endurance as a bonus feat.
->Rage Powers: Increased Damage Reduction, Knockback, Renewed Vigor, Strength Surge, Swift Foot

Jaguar Totem Talent Tree
A barbarian dedicated to the jaguar totem represents the "standard" barbarian and gains the standard barbarian class features.
->At 1st level, a jaguar-totem barbarian’s base speed increases by +10 when wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and no carrying a heavy load.
->At 2nd level, a jaguar-totem barbarian gains the Uncanny Dodge ability.
->At 3rd level, a jaguar-totem barbarian gains the Trap Sense ability.
->At 5th level, a jaguar-totem barbarian gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability.
->Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Guarded Stance, Intimidating Glare, Low-Light Vision, Powerful Blow, Quick Reflexes, Surprise Accuracy, Unexpected Strike

Serpent Totem Talent Tree
A barbarian dedicated to the serpent totem does not gain the standard fast movement, and trap sense barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
->At 1st level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves against poison.
->At 3rd level, a serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if he doesn't meet the normal prerequisites.
->A serpent-totem barbarian gains Improved Initiative as a bonus feat at 5th level.
->Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Clear Mind, Guarded Stance, Intimidating Glare, Low-Light Vision, Moment of Clarity, Night Sight, Quick Reflexes, Rolling Dodge, Surprise Accuracy, Unexpected Strike

Wolverine Totem Talent Tree
A barbarian dedicated to the wolverine totem does not gain the standard uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.
->A 1st-level wolverine-totem barbarian gains the Toughness feat
->A 2nd level wolverine-totem barbarian gains the ability to deal 1d4+Str slashing damage when fighting unarmed.
->A 3rd level wolverine-totem barbarian gains Trap Sense as the Core barbarian
->A 4th level wolverine-totem barbarian suffers no ill-effects from natural cold
->A 5th level wolverine-totem barbarian gains Indomitable Will as the Core barbarian
->Rage Powers: Animal Fury, Increased Damage Reduction, Mighty Swing, Powerful Blow, Renewed Vigor, Roused Anger, Unexpected Strike

Obvious this isn't field-tested, I put this particular version together over the course of last night after having read Pathfinger RPG Alpha 3. But the main idea here is breaking up class abilities into talent trees. I have a huge project in the works breaking up Monks into Martial Art style talent tress which, if I can ever finish the frigging thing, I think is going to be pretty sharp if I do say so myself.

So, thoughts, opinions, whatnot? I agonized over posting this, it being part of a campaign setting I've been designing since like 1990 off and on with the intent to publish, but if someone on the Pathfinder team likes the idea, all the better.

Wolvorine wrote:

Yes, I know the thread was closed, and likely with good reason. Lord knows I was unable to slog through the entire thing.

But, in response to at least one of the points it was trying to make around it inanity (that being consolidated skills) couldn't one take a page from White Wolf in this regard? If your character takes ranks in Perception, but is focused on sight instead of listening, then you could add a parenthetical "Perception (sharp-eyed)". Perhaps that would give full ranks when used as sight-based, and a -2 or somesuch when used vs. listening or whatever?

Granted, parenthetical qualifiers might not work for all of the skills, but I figured it was a solid enough thought to suggest to one and all.

Good Idea but would you work this into class features or feats. Either choice would be intersting, though spending feats in this case might be asking a lot for a feat heavy system such as 3.P On the other had I can see this given freely for rogues. I'm assuming the -2 would be for DC, one could also make a distiction between good human hearing and the sent ablity, giving sent a +10 so animals and perhapes Barbarian (as a power) a cool edge.

I'd add it as a side-bar to the skills rules. It's an adjunct to the skills afterall, neither a class function for a feat function. It's just like they did in Vampire: the Masquerade with skills, where you could add notations to further clarify your particular strength of angle on that skill. Maybe you could even go further with it; stating that no parenthetical specifier gives you your rank ability, and having a parenthetical specifier gives you a +1 within the scope of the parenthetical specifier, and a -2 in all other usages of that skill. Just off the top of my head.

Yes, I know the thread was closed, and likely with good reason. Lord knows I was unable to slog through the entire thing.
But, in response to at least one of the points it was trying to make around it inanity (that being consolidated skills) couldn't one take a page from White Wolf in this regard? If your character takes ranks in Perception, but is focused on sight instead of listening, then you could add a parenthetical "Perception (sharp-eyed)". Perhaps that would give full ranks when used as sight-based, and a -2 or somesuch when used vs. listening or whatever?

Granted, parenthetical qualifiers might not work for all of the skills, but I figured it was a solid enough thought to suggest to one and all.

I like some of the ideas floating around this thread about alchemy, especially the inclusion of potion brewing into it. I've hated the way alchemy was treated in 3E, myself. Being reduced to silly things like Sunrods and Tanglefoot Bags. Never struck me as very Alchemical.

Here's a few notations I've made for myself on a few alchemical items when I was working on alchemy (as a broad concept) for my own work, just to give an example of other things alchemy could be able to do:

"Alchemists/alchemy: Go back to the rules, stop thinking of the class. What does an Alchemist do? He creates things; potions, poisons, dusts, powders, misc. magical things. The Alchemist can create things that relate to his field because instead of using his own ability to manipulate Magic (which he doesn’t have), the Alchemist utilizes the inherent flow of Magic found in his ingredients. This takes considerably longer, but does suffice. The Alchemist is also a chemist, don’t forget."
((Note: Changed all references from my own material to mana to Magic for the purpose of this post))

"(Note: Candles and incenses are effectively the same for alchemical crafting purposes. When an item is listed here as a Candle or as Incense it is merely the most common form the item is created in.)
Candles:
Incenses:
Dusts:
Powders:
Oils:
Elixirs:

Morpheus Candle: This candle will, when burned, act as a Sleep spell. The candle must burn for at least 10 minutes before its smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 3 rounds in the area of effect before becoming affected. After the 3rd round, every creature within the candle’s effects must make the Will save against its effects every round they remain in the smoke.
A single Morpheus Candle can fill a 25x25 ft. area with potent smoke.

Cayenne Candle: This candle will, when burned, cause all creatures within its area of effect to suffer an agonizing rash that feels like their skin is on fire. The candle must burn for at least 10 minutes before the smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 2 rounds in the area of effect before becoming affected. All creatures within the candle’s smoke suffer 1d4 subdual damage every round after the 2nd that they remain in the smoke.

Incense of Inspiration: This incense, when burned, will cause anyone within its area of effect to fall into a meditative stupor. While in this stupor, the affected creature’s mind will expand and contemplate any single problem or question, gaining a +10 to any rolls pertaining to determining an answer to said problem or question. The incense must burn for at least 5 minutes before the smoke grows thick enough to reach potency, and a creature must spend 4 rounds in the area of effect before succumbing to it’s effects. All creatures within the area of effect are allowed a Will check (DC 18) to resist the stupor.

Dust of Waking Dreams: This dust, the result of intensive Pell alchemical work, is illegal to possess in most Lawful kingdoms that are aware of it. A single pinch of Dust of Waking Dreams, in inhaled, will [we’re basically talking PCP or Cocaine here, fill it in]."

(And yes, that last one is a bit risque, but there is a large sub-culture of illegal substances in my campaign setting, Dust of Waking Dreams being a rather mild offering)

But the idea is, I agree, alchemy should be much more robust a sub-system than it is. And it shouldn't require spellcasting. Knowledge: Arcane and/or Spellcraft (I'd lean toward both, personally) I would expect, but not the ability to cast spells. If you can cast spells, you really have a much weaker incentive to go the alchemical route.