Noctani's page

I'm not saying Pathfinder is broken. Far from it. I like the group dynamic and think a good GM can make wonderful challenges for a FULL PARTY even though there is power and/or utility "tier" disparity between the individuals of that party.

But, if we wanted to rig the system to smooth out that disparity, what changes would we make?

Can we do it without turning every martial class into into weird magus/jedi/ninja/wizards?

utility "tier" disparity between the individuals of that party.

But, if we wanted to rig the system to smooth out that disparity, what changes would we make?

Can we do it without turning every martial class into into weird magus/jedi/ninja/wizards?

First of all we need to not thank the people who brought about the idea of tier disparaity. The wizard was always suppose to have more utility than the fighter. A lot of casters will tell you early levels are dominated by fighters and unless they make that color spray cone or sleep spell & catch a few creatures they don't feel useful in combat. Of course combat isn't the only measure of utility but that largely depends on what kind of campaign you are playing. Of course some people don't like or necessarily understand support characters either. Giving a monk mage armor is one of the best things a lvl 1 wizard can do to contribute to the party. Enlarge person does a great deal of damage because it gives that 2 handed barbarian reach, allowing him to essentially make attacks of opportunity as the enemy closes. If wizards were always support characters and never did big damage or good aoe damage what would people say then? Let's leave that thought for now. In addition, if you look at core only...you'll quickly notice wizards, druids, and clerics have specific types of spells alotted to them. As time went on writers intergrated more spells belonging to each. Giving druids more evocation, wizards a way to heal with archetypes, and ect...I challenge everyone to just look at the core spells pathfinder laid out and you'll see clear defined roles. Clerics took on almost a pure support role. Druids were a mix but had great battle field control. Eventually, economic goals or requires pushed this to the side or piazo went into a different direction. It's a company, their purpose is to make money along with making a quality product. Piazo seemed to have left this idea in the dust and spell lists started running together. Your next issue is skills. Look at how many are covered under STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA and you'll quickly see where the utility is. If you read this far you might be asking yourself Noctani what are you getting at.

I'm saying Pathfinder needs to be scaled down.

There are too many spell choices and GM's should limit the number of books players have access to. Just like the read world knowledge that is readily available should be limited and this makes finding that new spell scroll all that more exciting or going to the magic shop that much better for wizards. Divine casters should be equally limited. Have low level casters cap out at two and mid level casters cap out at 4. Next have full progression casters cap out at lvl 7 spells. All spells with a power of 8+ are moved or used in mythic levels...ect...
Second CAP out raw stats to 17 with the racial bonus.

The next problem is ranged combat. Low level characters with little strength feel completely useless. Take out the penalty to firing into melee if within thirty feet. That way the wizard with a crossbow can feel decent when he runs out of spells and the two handed fighter is still destroying everything.
Next is Piazo needs to take a good look at equipment and perhaps even create a few new items and give martial characters proficiency. A grappling hook is an exotic weapon? I mean really? I was in the army and part of the training was learning to climb. You shouldn't need to spend a feat for this one thing. All the mundane crazy good fighters...weren't good fighters because they had magic or some anime ability. Batman as a tool kit...if they are invisible throw a smoke bomb and see where the smoke is blocked; throw some flour. Fighters were good because they were smart. Where this breaks down somewhat in game is pathfinder counts wealth towards CR. The fighter can have a weapon for most situations but they aren't going to be those epic weapons. He only has 1 of those. Two at best.
Next is skills. Skills need to be consolidated like 5E and this would change the amount of skill points classes receive.
Wizards have spells to get around things easily. Mundanes should get equipment that helps them get around things but not as easily as magic. Well, those are my two cents...and when I say fighter I just mean non-casting classes or the ones with weak progressions.

Casting classes need to be reworked. It's not bad that the wizard can transform into a dragon, the problem is that he didn't pay for it by limiting him to transmutation spells only. The problem is that he can still cast from everything else. The problem isn't that the druid can wildshape and have a better AC than the paladin. The problem is he has almost an unlimited option unless the GM controls it. GM's need to control it and I think piazo should endorse that. Piazo makes great products...what we do at our table is up to us.

I'm not sure I would call jacking up a monster's SR by five points a house rule.

And realistically the application of that has to be limited, especially in regards to monsters. Should I, as the GM, tell my players before the session, "Hello, tonight you're going to be fighting some home-built monkeys with horns and electrical attacks. Here is the stat sheet for the creature, make sure you're okay with it before we fight"?

'Cause to me, as a GM and a player, that takes the fun out of everything.

Thank you for trying to give a straw man argument. By one of the less numerous important issues and making it the focal point of your argument.

The point is to simply tell your players that you'll be making some homebrew monsters before the campaign ever starts. Few players should ever an issue with it unless you have abused it in the past.

Noctani wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Noctani wrote:

Some GMs seem to have this idea that pathfinder is a guideline.

It is... there's a very wide variety of the type of adventures you can have within the ruleset.

Then you need to re-read the core books again because it states any changes need to be agreed upon by all players. I wouldn't call that a guideline. Yes, there are varied rulesets and variants within pathfinder, but all variants are just optional rules for the players to use which should also be in that discussion. I wouldn't call something everyone needs to discuss as guidelines, but I don't want to argue semantics. GM houserules also requires agreement.

Please quote the reference where it says exactly that. Because I'm sure you're misreading the text.

P14 GameMastery Guide

"Rules of the House

Once you have a place to play and a date for your first session it's time to decide what "house rules" are needed for your campaign. While the term normally refers to modifications to the mechanics of the game, house rules can also be litereal rules of the house, covering the basic courtesies and dynamics of the game table. Some typical house rules are discussed below, but this list is by no means exhaustive. Discuss the issues and the options for handling them with your players before play begins, and make sure everyone agrees to abide by the final decision. If you see a need for a new house rule as play proceeds, talk to your players outside of the game, then implement the new rule at the next session, reminding the group about it before play begins."

-Cam Banks et al Piazo publishing, LLC under the Open Game License version 1.oa Section 1(e) and are not Open Content, 2010

House rules refers to modifications of the games mechanics. If you deviate too much to how pathfinder has set up the game you need to talk it over thoroughly with your players. I thought it was common sense...a common courtesy so your players don't have different expectations or waste their time playing under changed rules that they know nothing about or disagree with.

Sometimes, tough GMs need to learn the difference between challenge and enjoyment. I'd say go up against the new dragon he makes. If it wipes the party, it wipes the party. He's got learn that there needs to be balance if he wants people to play his games.

Well, first I'd talk to your fellow players. How many people enjoyed the battle? Some GMs seem to have this idea that pathfinder is a guideline. Although, it strictly states that if you are going to change any of the main rules or put in houserules it needs to be discussed thoroughly with all players in agreement. The reason is because most people are playing a game based upon what pathfinder set forth and not the DM.

Personally, I don't want to be forced into encounters at more than +4 the parties APL (Unless there were warning signs beforehand and the party has the option of running). I don't want the GM to max HP on encounters ever (I know when it happens). I want the GM to be intelligent, tactical, and inventive. When a DM just ups the HP or increases the number of enemies I feel like I'm playing a video game where the programmers said "Oh, we need to make things more difficult, lets change the rules for the AI". I feel the sameway when the GM makes unreasonable augmentations without changing the CR or strays too far away from the pathfinder ruleset. If you feel the GM is doing this and you can't adapt your spellcasting to summoning, or buffing, stop playing his campaign and go to a different section of the world. I once had a DM's campaign world get a makerover because none of the players enjoyed playing it.

I'm the DM, and I want to be more generous with hero points. Currently it's one per level up, and when my gut says so.

What are some great standard issue reasons to chuck out a hero point? They rule.

1. The most common in my group is good RP.

Hi All,

So I'm a level 2 Druid in a three person party with a burst sorcerer and a paladin. I have a wolf animal companion that I rolled pretty lucky on his HP. Here are my thoughts:

So far the paladin and the wolf are our main sources of damage. I'm hoping to fill the roll of battlefield controller with my caster druid sitting in the back lines casting and summoning.

I'm very new to roleplaying and to PF and my party is limited to CRB and APG for our spells, items, etc.

I'm looking for advice on a few things:

1. What are various ways to control the battle field?
2. What equipment would help me control the battle field and what are creative ways to use them?
3. Any tips for how to use a low level druid?

I'll tell you what I know already:

1. Entangle melee enemies
Fairie Fire + Obscuring Mist
Expeditious Excavation under the sorcerer and let her blast away with magic missile then duck down.
2. Caltrops can be used to control the battlefield, but I'm not sure how to use these well. Same with tying people up during battle? Could I have my wolf hold one end of a rope in his mouth and try to clothesline people with it?

Once again, looking for not only mechanics, but also roleplaying tips since I'm not very adept at it yet.

Thanks all in advance!

Summoning is probably one of the best ways to control the battlefield, but it's also very costly and typically not worth it early on because of the number of rnds the monster stays. Caltrops is another way to limit movement or cut your enemies movement in half. Never go adventuring with at least two sets of nets and two sets of rope, this is especially useful for setting up traps in a dungeon, or a defensive perimiter. Bells and thread also help you set alarms in certain areas. Creating good berries helps you preserve your healing for one - 2 days before adventuring. Being able to cast the four primary zero level spells asissts as well. Light, stabilize, create water, and guidance. Guidance is a free buff, light helps you see, stabilize ensures survive, create water can create obstacles and stave off thirst.

Spells: Produce flame is one of your better spells because you can utilize multiple times and even possibly in more than one combat. It is a straight combat spell but it allows you to attack with a touch AC which may ridiculously help your party. It also has good range. Call Animal is the most powerful spell you have because you can possibly convince an animal to help you with a CR that's equal to your character
level. This spell is also a great roleplaying tool and prepares "alternate" companions if your wolf ever dies.

I have to go for now so I'll comment later.

[quote

Take for example a bandit camp, something that is inevitably out in the open terrain. Its typical defenses would be setup to deter a retaliatory martial force and so it would most likely have wooden barricades, a gate, and a couple watch standers...

First of all, what decent bandit camps are out in the open terrain. Perhaps, deep in the trees, a cave, natural structures, or if they actually have a hold then they must be quite numerous. Maybe they have somewhere between 35-75 bandits. If this place isn't well hidden then why hasn't someone else removed the camp already? Are they smuggling for the regent or legal authority in the area? If they are being "protected" then maybe they don't need to hide in a Fort that has a big sign of I'm here.

No if I am a bandit leader I am not going to make an open structure unless it's out in the wilderness and hard to find by itself or there are no major legal authorities around. Take todays terrorists for example, the best way to work is in small cells with l lieutenant. That Lieutenant may know two others Lieutenant who knows another Lieutenant who knows a few of my enforcers who knows my second who knows me. Your characters are thinking with minds of today in a fantasy realm that's based on stories any things that happened over a thousand years ago. Use the strategies of bandit leaders, gangs, and other organizations of today. Use the strategies of pirates of today in Africa when they face off against other countries and sell people for ransom.

For arguments sake lets say you make a fortress in the open and I have to defend it with 75 bandits and some animals or monsters that aren't companions.

I'll say the players are LVL 4.

Bandits
CR 1/2 10
CR 1 15
CR 2 20
CR 3 10
CR 4 8
CR 5 5
CR 6 3
CR 7 1

I would take 6 CR3s and have them leading 3CR2s and 2CR1s around on patrol on rotation every 8 hours. They would travel up to four hours away and return. I would also take a few 1/2 CRs and dot them around as watch towers on horse back, but give them some other task as well to prevent others from thinking they were on watch. I would also have a worg or wolf pack out that was set to watch a different side and trained to howl if they smelled or saw any intruders. Finally I would insulate myself with traps on the other avenue of approach or something somewhat controllable yet dangerous. Maybe a small tribe of Strix are paid in meat to deal with any tresspassers.

I have a fortress, patrols, insulation from all sides. Next, I would start thinking about an escape root if some one got in. Maybe through a cave, on a river, or a fly spell.

Hopefully any tresspassers will be sighted hours before they get to my fortress.

If the Strix come in contact with anything they are suppose to send messengers. If the wolves begin howling in unison via instruction of the worg then I have a battle plan set to prepare for invaders.

Periodically 1 CR5 two CR4s and two CR3s would go out to hunt wild animals in the area.

Then I would look at my random counter table and see what may apply to the PCs in the or on the ground. If I don't have any I go through bestiary 1-4 and come up with it and add it to my encounter table.

Now comes the next question. Why did I choose this place way out here? Is it because I am in love in a strix or there are caves near by with healing powers or an underground cave network? Either way I'll tie this in to what I want to protect. I probably have at least 1-6 casters as part of my crew because I'm a smart bandit leader. If the PCs try to fly through they are only going to see part of whats available and they can't fly for what turns into hours of walking so they won't be able to fly there in one shot. In addition, one of the strix is a druid that has the scent ability and can smell them if they are flying.

Split up all the goodies among the open terrain. If the PCs go through the strix they find out the bandit leader and the strix elder been friends for years and the leader is about to marry his daughter. His son however is severely ill and needs some restoration. The village also has an ancient lock box that cannot be broken and has never been picked. It doesn't have to be this lame, but think up of goodies that you can use over and over again. If the PCs don't go this way then they don't get the goodies but you can use a similar situation at another part of the story.

Don't try to make something the characters just can't skip. That's why the game is so loved because you have so much choice. The players have three choices one has a strix druid they may detect them if they are flying. With other strix in the area that might notice something. One has a patrol, and the other worgs, wolves, and other wild animals. Assuming this area takes 4 hours to get out of thats 12 miles for walking. Lets cut that by half for kicks and giggles. The party can't fly for six miles and unless this was a random meeting characters that are level 4 are particularly skilled. They are almost expert adventurers. The bandit leader should have had of them if they are in the area, if they are local.

andreww wrote:

JoeJ wrote:

Taking 10 on a skill is not possible in dangerous situations (unless the character has Skill Focus, of course). So no taking 10 while disarming a trap, or trying to sneak past guards. (I do allow, however, a character to take 10 if they don't know they're in danger, which mainly just makes it a bit easier for me to have NPCs make Perception and Sense Motive checks.)

This is not what the take 10 rules say.

What do you mean? The first part is the rules: "when your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10... Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10."

The part about the unaware guards taking 10 falls under rule 0 because it's a way to make things easier on the GM.

Actually core rules even cover the guard thing. It's their profession. It's their everyday job so it's a routine task. That is one of the best things about the profession skill. It allows you to take ten on things as long as your consistenly role playing them, because it's a routine task.

I'm not complaining so much about the fact that it makes them invisible, I understand its purpose. But more about the fact that the combo is incredibly easy, very low level, and pigeonholes the GM. That's actually kind of the point of all of the things that I'm bringing up. Balancing.

I get that a character is an ace, but if something is trivial, why include it in the first place. Why put in a trap if there is 0% chance that it will actually hit the party? Why have a creature stalk the party if there is 0% chance that it will be undetected. Reverse that and say why would you include a scenario where the party can/should/have to sneak through an area when there is 0% chance that everyone in the party could actually succeed (but this is where Invisibility is SUPPOSED to come into play)

Alarm is not an adequate defense as it only protects a 20ft radius. Sure you could protect the one point where the target is located, but they can still fly over the city walls, past all the guards, up to the top of the castle negating everything between the edge of the city and the target.

Perhaps you're right and maybe I've outgrown the D20 system and desire something a bit more nuanced. I came to the forums to see if maybe there were ways beyond GM hand waving that I just wasn't seeing before coming to that conclusion. I am certainly open to suggestions if you have any particular systems in mind.

Flying and invisibility can be given at quite a low level but as wraith stated it's quite costly in potion form and if the wizard buffs the entire party then he's out alot of spells for combat. That is the balance. Why have a trap or creature there if there's a 0% chance. First it validates the players for choosing their paths. Second there should be encounters they have a very low chance. A green had has a +23 on her disguise when using alterself. At low levels it's very difficult for a PC to notice something is amiss. Sure some DCs are low, but if you are running an adventure path feel free to replace an NPC or encounter with something that might challenge your players. Stalking and invisibility works both ways. One of the greatest early monsters that give PCs an aggevating time are Imps, faery dragons, and other creatures who can also turn themselves invisible and have flight. Another very useful spell is silent image because you don't know it's not real until it's interracted with.

You said, alarm is not an adequate defense. It's not suppose to be an adequate defense, it's suppose to yield information and make others lose the element of surprise. Have rumors of the princess being held in the tower with an alarm spell, while she is really safe in the dungeon. The alarm spell should be placed on the window or doors. You don't need to place just one either. Have the alarm trigger a ward, which sets of burning hands or some low level spell in the area. It all depends on your campaign world. If the BBEG's valuable princess is so valuable someone, somewhere, at sometime will want to take her. Sometimes let the PCs get the easy win and when appropriate have layers upon layers of twists, turns, depth, and plot. I don't think the GMs need to say no. The GMs might need to rethink how they see the campaign world. It sounds like the players are ready to take on highly intelligent evil doers not the run of the mill bandits.

They go into the tower to save the princess, the alarm goes off. There isn't much time. They take the princess and go. Only, the princess isn't a princess she is a green hag with a +23 disguise check using alterself. The party goes back and the hag sends a message to the BBEG to ambush the PCs, the hag tries to seduce a party member during the night and get him alone...ect...ect...meanwhile the real princess is really in the dungeon. I can easily think of more obstacles a smart BBEG might place up for people who want to foil his plan. He got to a place of leadership for a reason afterall.

I still think the GMs must be using very linear thinking. There isn't option A or option B there is option C, D, E. What if the party can't be stalked? Maybe they have a druid with an absurd perception check? Well, then misdirection is a better tactic then stealth and I'm not saying invalidate the players choices but mix it up. If you can't send an assassin after a party then what about having the PCs notice the creature or NPC and engage him, only the NPC runs them into a trap. There are so many things the BBEG can do to make things difficult for players. Don't get me wrong play the BBEG.

[Reverse that and say why would you include a scenario where the party can/should/have to sneak through an area when there is 0% chance that everyone in the party could actually succeed (but this is where Invisibility is SUPPOSED to come into play)]

Maybe the party shouldn't sneak through then. If you have a fighter who wears heavy armor with no sneak skills then maybe you should let the ninja go in with the other sneaks or even alone, but maybe the casters should buff the crap out of him with expeditious retreat, offensive, and defensive buffs. I actually have had a ninja go into a bandit camp, and sapped three fourths of the camp, leaving them knocked out before he was found. Half of the point is to let the characters make these decisions and reward them if they think of something smart. Will we try options 1-5. Maybe the PCs decide to bluff their way in by trying to join the bandits. It's all up to the players. As a GM you want to say there are 5 different ways this can be solved. Then you make the percentages...okay this one is 80% (it was a good idea) 60% 40% 20% 0% (it was a bad Idea). Then as a GM go through some player throughs as what the party might do. After a while it becomes second nature and you're always ready for 3-5 courses of action the PCs may take.

Player characters have bread and butter. These are the skills, spells, or abilities they rely on. When going up against mooks they probably won't be countered unless it was planned by someone higher up. Against mini bosses then maybe. Against a BBEG not always, but 80-90% he knows who the players are, what they can do, and what there tendancies are. Second a BBEG should always have an escape plan. When I GM rarely does the party whole slaughter everyone. Usually one runs away and escapes to tell the others if they have an intelligence of 7 or more. Personality, culture, natural tendancies, and other things are also taken into account.

Turtlmen Traits

+2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom, –2 Dexterity: Turtlmen are vigorous and wise, but slow to act.
Medium: Turtlmen are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Slow and Steady: Turtlmen have a base speed of 20 feet on land but their speed is never adjusted by armor or encumbrance.
Darkvision: Turtlmen can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Aquatic: Turtlmen are humanoids with the aquatic subtype. As aquatic creatures, they also have a swim speed of 30 feet, can move in water without making Swim checks, and always treat Swim as a class skill.
Amphibious: Turtlmen have the aquatic subtype, but can breathe both water and air.
Hard Shells: The hard shell of a turtle gives a turtleman a +2 to Natural Armor.
Full Retreat: A turtle can hide it's extremities inside their own shell increasing their Natural Armor to +4, decreasing their land speed to 0, and giving them a +4 circumstance stealth bonus.
Languages: Turtlmen begin play speaking Common and Turtle.
Turtlmen with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Aklo, Aquan, Draconic, and Elven.