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Can a 7th level cleric cast control water twice on a pool of water that is 30 ft deep? With each spell lowering the water 14 ft.

School transmutation [water]; Level cleric 4, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 6

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M/DF (a pinch of dust for lower water or a drop of water for raise water)

Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area water in a volume of 10 ft./level by 10 ft./level by 2 ft./level (S)

Duration 10 min./level (D)

Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance no

This spell has two different applications, both of which control water in different ways. The first version of this spell causes water in the area to swiftly evaporate or to sink into the ground below, lowering the water's depth. The second version causes the water to surge and rise, increasing its overall depth and possibly flooding nearby areas.

Lower Water: This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth of 1 inch). The water is lowered within a squarish depression whose sides are up to caster level × 10 feet long. In extremely large and deep bodies of water, such as a deep ocean, the spell creates a whirlpool that sweeps ships and similar craft downward, putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell. When cast on water elementals and other water-based creatures, this spell acts as a slow spell (Will negates). The spell has no effect on other creatures.

Raise Water: This causes water or similar liquid to rise in height, just as the lower water version causes it to lower. Boats raised in this way slide down the sides of the hump that the spell creates. If the area affected by the spell includes riverbanks, a beach, or other land nearby, the water can spill over onto dry land.

With either version of this spell, you may reduce one horizontal dimension by half and double the other horizontal dimension to change the overall area of effect.

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If I have a lv 11 fighter with a base attack of +11,+6,+1. If take a full round attack action and I choose to make my first 2 attacks with my melee weapon and choose to use my 3rd attack as a trip attempt do I use +1 as my BAB for calculating my CMB or do I use the full +11?

Can you use the entangle spell in a place where there are no plants?

Nahtar wrote:

Do you use your CMB + D20 for a trip attack or do you use a normal weapon attack for a trip attack?

You use CMB, but see below.

Nahtar wrote:

Can you use the barbarian rage power strength surge with a trip attack?

Yes, a trip attack is a combat maneuver.

Nahtar wrote:

I also wanted to double check this, are the only weapons you can use in a trip attack the weapons that have the special quality trip attached to their description or can you use other weapons to trip also?

You can only make trip attacks with a trip weapon (or unarmed) - if you use a trip weapon, any modifiers for attacks you have with that weapon (such as Weapon Focus, or magical enhancement) apply to the CMB check.

Thank you very much for your help that clears it all up for me perfectly.

Do you use your CMB + D20 for a trip attack or do you use a normal weapon attack for a trip attack?

Can you use the barbarian rage power strength surge with a trip attack?

I also wanted to double check this, are the only weapons you can use in a trip attack the weapons that have the special quality trip attached to their description or can you use other weapons to trip also?

Nahtar wrote:

If I use the metamagic feat heighten spell on cure critical wounds to lets say change it to a level 6 spell, would the amount of die I roll also change from the 4d8 of the original 4th level spell to 6D8 at the 6th level version of it?

As others have said, by RAW, not much is altered.

Now a fine house rule would be that certain caps would be altered by increasing the spell level of the spell.

To whit in the case of the cure spells the + caster level to the amount healed, say from +20 to +30 in this case. Not that this should come into play here, but in the case of cure light wounds or fireball it's more likely.

-James

Thanks for the feedback all that clears it up or me

If you apply 2 meta magic feats to the spell you selected for the Magical Lineage trait, do you subtract one spell level for each feat you add to it, or one from final result of both feat levels added together?

Thanks for the feed back all I appreciate it

If I use the metamagic feat heighten spell on cure critical wounds to lets say change it to a level 6 spell, would the amount of die I roll also change from the 4d8 of the original 4th level spell to 6D8 at the 6th level version of it?

I love curling!

Thanks for the help and the humor, guess I'll stick with the channels I have, and miss out on all the sweep mastery :)

Of the "extra" feats only extra channel does not say you can take it multiple times to stack. I just want to confirm you can not take it multiple times, is that right?

Cold Napalm wrote:

By RAW it doesn't become lighter because it does not say it does.

Really? From page 155 of the core book:

Quote:

An item made from mithral weighs half as much as

the same item made from other metals.

Also, the magic items section even lists a non-magical mithral heavy shield as a sample item, page 467. And interestingly enough, it has a weight listed of only 5 lbs, not the 7.5 lbs you would expect it to have when going by the info on page 155. It has the same spell failure chance that a light shield does and has no AC penalty, so it is better than any mundane shield listed in the equipment section.

So the only issue is the bulkiness of the shield, does the overall size still get in the way since the weight obviously would not? Since the descriptions of light and heavy shields make them sound the same in size, with only the weight being the difference, I would say that a mithral heavy shield would let you do the same thing as a light steel shield, and let you carry something in that hand without penalty.

Oh wow, I did not know about the sample mithral heavy shield that really helps. And I see what your saying in that the difference between a heavy and light shield might just be the thickness of the metal instead of the size. Thanks a lot, I think that clears it up for me.

Talbane wrote:

Yeah, I think this would come down to GM choice. I mean when mithral is applied to armor is makes it one category lighter, I could see where you could say something similar must happen to the shield as well. Always saw the problem with heavy shields being that if you took the arm out of the strap and had this big 15 pound thing flopping around on your arm you wouldn't be able to manipulate stuff. If it's lighter... Maybe? It would still be all up in your business though. If the GM dosen't like it, maybe see if he'd give you a percentage chance to drop what your holding or something. Or make it where it takes a round or two to get the shield back in place if you've been carrying something.

Big difference here is that armor for the most part is worn mostly the same regardless of it's weight. However a heavy shield is worn differently than a light shield due to it's very shape. So despite the fact that it is lighter, the sheer bulk of the shield which isn't changed precludes putting anything else in that hand. This follows also the Pathfinder rulings on mithral breastplate. in that it's not worn any differently from regular steel breastplates, thus requiring the same proficiency.

So in effect, the benefits of a mithril heavy shield, is that it counts less of your encumbrance in weight, reduced armor check penalties and arcane spell failure chance. Proficiencies required and the way it's wielded are not changed.

Although it makes sense that people are drawing the comparisons between using certain types of weapons and wearing certain types of armor and mithral I believe that might not be at issue here. Yes it is clearly true and right that if you do not know how to fight with a great sword you still do not know how to fight with it if it becomes lighter. Likewise if you do not know how wear or fight in a breastplate armor you still do not know ow if it becomes lighter. Note here that if you do know how in every other way it becomes light armor meaning encumbrance, movement speed, resting in it an so forth.

However the issue with the heavy steel shield is not that same, as we are discussing a circumstance where the person does know how to fight with and use this shield. Further in the definition of the heavy shield it stipulates that the reason you can not carry things in your other hand is not that it is cumbersome or large but merely that it is too heavy to do this, meaning it carries to much weight. The light and heavy shield are worn in the same way, in their descriptions it stated clearly that a heavy shield will not allow you to carry something in your shield hand due to its weight and a light shield does allow it again due to its weight. The issue here is not whether he can still use the shield when it is lighter as he can either way but whether because the weight is reduced he can let go of that hand strap the same way he could with a light shield(which certainly does correlate to lighter in weight per description) to carry something in his shield hand. It seems it would because the reason you cannot do this is described as being due to the weight of the “heavy” shield which is now is not so heavy. I agree it might be more cumbersome due to its being larger and its shape and so perhaps there should be some form of penalty as some of you have suggested (such as losing part or all of your shield bonus) if you choose to carry something. But this should not stop you from doing so.

I do not believe that the comparison to mithral armor weapons and proficiency is not quite sound as the issue per the description of the shield itself is not proficiency but weight and of course the character in question is actually proficient in the shield. So yes of course it does not become a different shield, meaning yes you would need to be proficient with heavy shields and not just light shield to use a mithral heavy steel shield (much like a mithral breast plate) but will the reduced weight allow you to do things like let go the hand strap which you could not do when the shield was heavier (much like moving further with a mithral breast plate as opposed to a metal one). I feel it should.

The one reason I could think of that it should not be allowed would be game balancing. If this would make a character over powered then it would make sense not to allow it. Anyway that is my take. Good discussion, thanks again for all the input all!

Nahtar wrote:

Nahtar wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.

But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.

Im not meaning to argue and do see both your points but I feel as if it might be an issue of whether I can let go of the hand hold of the shield to carry something because it is light enough to do so.

I'm not sure what to tell you. The game doesn't sort shields by weight, it just has "Light" and "Heavy". Mithril Weapons aren't any easier to wield than Steel ones, so one can infer that the same should apply to Shields as well. If you wanted to rule that shields under a certain weight let you hold an item in that hand, you're welcome to Houserule it.

Personally, if I were to allow it, I'd probably have the character lose their Shield bonus so long as their hand is occupied, at the very least.

Thanks a lot for the input I really appreciate it. I see your point and am torn on this issue. If it is a balancing thing then clearly it should not be allowed. I think in real life with a shield set up this way and being that weight and size it would probably work to hold something. But its hard to decide if this makes sense to allow in the game. Certainly I agree about losing the shield bonus if you hold something, that makes a lot of sense. IDK tough call, thanks again for your feedback.

Gorbacz wrote:

I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.

But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.

Im not meaning to argue and do see both your points but I feel as if it might be an issue of whether I can let go of the hand hold of the shield to carry something because it is light enough to do so. It is strapped to my wrist after all and even though it might be bigger if it is light enough it seems that letting go of those handholds might be feasible.

I'd say no. The difference between heavy shield and light shield isn't just about the weight, it's also size and the way it attaches to your hand.

But in the core rules the description of how the 2 are worn is identical and it specifically states that the reason you cant carry things in your shield hand is because it is so heavy. That seems to imply that weight is indeed the issue, which is why I asked if that was little enough weight to still carry a potion or such. It is closer in weight to a light shield then a heavy but I just want to see is six lbs is the absolute weight limit for carrying something in your shield hand or if you can still do it if your shield weighs a bit more? Any input is welcome as this seems to be a bit of a gray area.

A heavy shield says you can't use you shield hand for anything else. the wood weighs 10 lbs the steel weighs 15 lbs. If I make a heavy steel shield mithral it would weigh 7.5 pounds which is 1.5 pounds heavier then a light steel shield (which allows you to carry things in your shield hand) and 2.5 pounds lighter then the heavy wooden shield which does not. Can I carry things in my shield hand such as potions if I am wearing a heavy steel shield made out of mithral?

How do you identify larger object with magical properties? lets say a statue or a pool of liquid or anything that isn't a standard magic item really. Can you determine their exact magical properties (if it has any) through spell craft or in any other way?

Also if permanent illusion is cast on an area can you tell both that it is an illusion school magic and that is is the spell is permanent image for instance?

Nahtar wrote:

Is there a level requirement for making stat boosting items such as a belt of strength + something the same way there is for a weapon armor or ring + something? In other words do you need to have a caster level X3 to make a belt of strength of a certain number (6th level to make +2, 12th level to make a +4, 18th to make +6 stat boost item)?

There is no extra requirement for this.

Nahtar wrote:

My second question is can you make odd number belt's like +1, +3 or +5 belts? If so is it also the same 9th level to make +3 and 15th to make +5?

You should only make ability score bonuses in even increments.

Thanks for the feedback that really helps!

Is there a level requirement for making stat boosting items such as a belt of strength + something the same way there is for a weapon armor or ring + something? In other words do you need to have a caster level X3 to make a belt of strength of a certain number (6th level to make +2, 12th level to make a +4, 18th to make +6 stat boost item)?

My second question is can you make odd number belt's like +1, +3 or +5 belts? If so is it also the same 9th level to make +3 and 15th to make +5?

I can not figure out if these items have those types of requirements. Tanks for the feedback

If 3 pc's are surrounding a target and that target provokes an AoO from all 3, is there an order to attacks of opportunity or are they considered to happen at the same time? If so how is the order determined? I ask because if 1 pc (that would go first)would trip the target with his AoO and the other AoO's go after then the target gains the prone condition for the purposes of their AoO's does that make sense?

So if I trip as an attack of opportunity and do not have improved trip does my tripping the opponent as an AoO cause them to get an AoO back on me. In other words does a trip that would normally provoke AoO still do so if it is itself an AoO?

Nahtar wrote:

Can you use combat maneuvers such as trip or grapple instead of a melee attack as an attack of opportunity? tx

Ones that say "in place of a melee attack."

I think those ones are trip, sunder and disarm.

Bull rush and Grapple require standard actions, so they can't be used as attacks of opportunity.

Can you use combat maneuvers such as trip or grapple instead of a melee attack as an attack of opportunity? tx

I am going to DM a adventure for a group of my friends in the near future and am struggling between choosing counsel of thieves and kingmaker. I know kingmaker isn't quite out yet but was wondering of anyone had any feedback or opinions as to possible pros and cons of the two paths. Maybe just differences between them or how they play different or anything I else you can think of to help me choose. I'm really stomped because they both sound great. IDK if that even makes sense but I guess I'm just trying to get any kind of feedback I can to help me alonge since once I choose its such a long term commitment for us all. Any input would be much appreciated. Tx a lot all

I was wondering if there was a players guide for the kingmaker adventure path I can get somewhere. I can't seem to find it, does anyone know if it is planed, or what its called, or when it will be released? Tx

I want to run a second darkness campaign and need to find copies of the player guide for the campaign. I would prefer to find it printed but pdf would also work. I can not find it here on the paizo site and amazon has it listed as - Pathfinder Player's Guide: Second Darkness Player's Guide but there are no copies available anywhere. Does anyone know where I could get a hold of this guide printed or pdf I really want to find it. Thanks a lot for the help

Nahtar wrote:

I was wondering, Do I get attacks of opportunity when I have greater trip and succeed at a trip or when I have greater overrun and knock my opponent prone? It says in greater bull rush that I do not but others do but does not say in greater trip or overrun I assume this means I do is that correct?

Yes, the difference in wording for Grt Trip/OverRun vs. Bullrush is signifigant, thus the target's provocation let's you also take an AoO against them (if you have one remaining).

Quote:

My second questions relates to tireless rage class feature. It seems as if you could rage at the beginning of every round and drop out of rage at the end without and negative consequences is that right? (...) Is it true that if I drop in and then out of rage every round all my once/rage powers would be available to me every round?

Your understanding of how it works is exactly how I read it, but your conclusion that there is no negative consequence is missing one major point: If you enter/leave rage as you suggest, you may not use ANY rage power at all in a 'defensive' way, or reacting to other characters' actions (AC boosts, unexpected strike, etc), which are very signifigant rage powers. Given tireless rage is a very high level ability (or other ways to negate fatigue likewise consume resources/actions), and you ARE making a trade-off between offensive/defensive powers, I don't think it's particularly unbalancing... I mean, there should be SOME good reasons to take a class all the way to high levels, and the rate of Rage STR Bonus escalation isn't enough to cut it by itself :-)

I was certainly not trying to say it was unbalanced in any way I just wanted to know if that was possible. I do understand what you're saying about not being able to use some of the powers when you drop out that is of course true. So this pattern is ok: If I am already in rage and someone steps in a threatened space and I use my unexpected strike to hit him, it then comes to my turn and I am still raging I use greater trip and succeed, I an AoO and roll an 19 with my great sword I then use mighty swing to auto confirm my crit. I can then drop out of rage at the end of that round, when I start my rage the next turn I have mighty swing and unexpected strike again (this last as you said will only work if I stay raging since opp have to step in on me). No I think that's great, not unbalanced (the fighter class certainly get plenty of good features) but a really cool option for very high level barbarians. I just wanted to make sure that was right. Thanks for your input that really helped.

I was wondering, Do I get attacks of opportunity when I have greater trip and succeed at a trip or when I have greater overrun and knock my opponent prone? It says in greater bull rush that I do not but others do but does not say in greater trip or overrun I assume this means I do is that correct?

My second questions relates to tireless rage class feature. It seems as if you could rage at the beginning of every round and drop out of rage at the end without and negative consequences is that right? If so I again assume that every round would be considered a new rage which would in turn mean that at the beginning of every round I would have all rage powers with the once per rage limitation available to regardless of whether I used them the previous round. Is it true that if I drop in and then out of rage every round all my once/rage powers would be available to me every round?

Tx again for the feedback all

The first question is probably pretty obvious but I want to confirm. Under the buckler it says that if you fight with a weapon in both hands or use your off hand to help on a 2 handed weapon you get a -1 to hit. It also says that if you attack with a weapon in your off hand you lose the AC bonus for that round. I says nothing specifically there about using your off hand to help with a 2H weapon for an att. Do you retain the AC bonus from a buckler if you use the off hand to help with a 2 handed weapon for that round?

Second is a question about a prone opponent: it says that you get a -4 AC to melee attacks which makes sense to me but it says nothing about having negatives to hit or dam. on melee attacks. That seems very odd to me as it almost has to be harder to hit with a melee weapon while you are laying on the floor since you have limited maneuverability and it seems like those attacks would be much easier to avoid. If you visualize(or at least when I do) someone laying on the floor in front of you trying to hit you with a melee weapon it just feels like that would be much more difficult then if he is standing. In my mind they almost look silly trying, poking at me from the floor with a sword or trying to crush my toes with a blunt weapon. Swinging up is highly ineffective since they have no leverage and all that. It should even be a much weaker attack as far as power(like half less str bonus to dam.) as well as less likely to hit. Since medium opponent that actual part of you they can attack from laying down are much fewer that should also make the attacks easier to avoid. My question is, is it true that there are no negative effects to your melee att chances or damage results while prone? Is it further true that prone characters do not lose there dex bonus to ac? That also seems odd to me though not as odd as laying prone not effecting your melee att chance or dam. Is this just a game balancing issue that in a real situation makes no sense? One that had to be applied to stop things like trip becoming to powerful? I really don't have a problem if that's true, some things are just necessary for balance, I'm just curious.

I just want to confirm these things as the prone thing seems odd to me and I just want to get the definitive word on the buckler, thanks for the feedback all