Mromson's page

If you buy a CD, are you entitled to buy the LP and cassette version (let's pretend those are still current formats) for just a few dollars more because you already paid the artist, record company, producer and engineer once?

If you buy a hard back novel, are you entitled to the audiobook for only an extra couple bucks because you already paid the author, publisher, distributor etc once?

For that matter, if you get into an author or a band later in their career, are you entitled to all their earlier works at a discount?

Heck, I once joined a coffee of the month club but I didn't feel entitled to get all the previous month's coffees (before I decided to join) at some sort of discount!

It just is not a reasonable thing to expect and neither is what you want from Paizo.

If you buy a CD, are you entitled to buy the LP and cassette version (let's pretend those are still current formats) for just a few dollars more because you already paid the artist, record company, producer and engineer once?

If I paid for the original content; then yes, I do feel that I am entitled to own the product on different formats for no additional cost beyond the conversion process itself. Because I already paid for the content itself.

If you buy a hard back novel, are you entitled to the audiobook for only an extra couple bucks because you already paid the author, publisher, distributor etc once?

No, I'm not. If I purchased a hardcopy of a novel then I'm not automatically entitled to the audiobook of said product, because creating the audiobook is an additional resource that I didn't pay for. I merely paid for the creation of the original content (writing, editing, etc. etc.) - But to answer what I think you meant by that question; "If I purchased a hardcopy of a novel, do I feel entitled to be able to purchase the audiobook for the additional cost of producing the audiobook?" then Yes, I do. I shouldn't have to pay for the same content twice - ie. the price of the audio book should be "Audiobook Price minus the price of the content"

Let me illustrate this. Assume that James Awesome wrote a book The Certificate for Awesome, by James Awesome, and that he's selling a hardcopy of this book for $10 USD, where $2 USD of that price comes from printing expenses (and yes, I know the price number changes based on volume, but this is just an example). James Awesome is also offering an .epub version of his book for $9 USD, where $1 USD of that price comes from conversion expenses. Additionally, there's also an audiobook version available for $18 USD (digital) and $20 USD (hardcopy CD), where $10 USD of that price comes from the involved cost of producing the audio content (and $2 USD comes from "hardcopy CD" costs). Now from this you see that I assume the "value" of producing the content itself (ie. James writing his book) would be about $8 USD. So how much do I feel that I should have to pay in order to get the Hardcopy of James' Book, an .epub file, audiobook, as well as the audiobook CD? My answer is $23 USD; $8 (content) + $2 (hardcopy book) + $1 (epub file) + $10 (audio) + $2 (hardcopy CD). (edit: plus shipping, of course)

Now, note that the author doesn't have to offer any of those extra things, he could just say "here's the hardcopy of the book, take it or leave it" - and that's fine. I'd simply have to convert the content into other formats myself.

Heck, I once joined a coffee of the month club but I didn't feel entitled to get all the previous month's coffees (before I decided to join) at some sort of discount!

It just is not a reasonable thing to expect and neither is what you want from Paizo.

If I joined some coffee of the month club, then I wouldn't feel entitled to the previous month's coffee at any discount, because my position isn't applicable to physical content.

Vic has responded to this exact option in the past. This is from memory with a few of my own thoughts added in. The issue is that making a code in a book causes additional issues:

1) You can't have it as a separate page, because then customers at the brick and mortar stores will take the insert, the response to this is to make it a scratch-code somewhere in the book (issue 2) or to shrink wrap the books (issue 3)

2) Scratch off codes: They can't make the same code for each copy, because then if the code gets out to the internet, then people who have not purchased the book would be getting a super cheap PDF. Having each different, using an algorithm that is tough to decipher, but can connect to the checkout system would be really tough. It would also increase the price to print the hard copies, which means a bigger price to consumers. Considering the biggest percentage is subscribers, so they would never need said code, it makes it hard to appreciate the price increase.

3)Shrink wrap would prevent more sales than it would gain. A big thing in Paizo's products are the interior art, layout, and cartography that are second to none. By shrink-wrapping products, you loose those big selling points to anyone looking to buy something off the shelf at a FLGS.

I know in the past they have said they are open to discussing ideas, but in all of their research, they were unable to find a cost effective way to provide these options. (I think the post I'm paraphrasing was from 2010 or 2011, but based on the amount of market research they have been doing in other areas, if the option was out there, I think they'd have taken it)

Point 1 and 3 are both eliminated by having the store keep the cards behind the counter - no need to shrink wrap the books, and point 2 is a literal non-existant issue (making unique codes is painfully easy).

Mromson wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Mromson wrote:

TL;DR:

1. Taking a readied action doesn't count as "your turn",
2. You cannot directly follow up an opponent who preformed a 5-foot step without the Step Up feat

No. Just no.

This is why you can't explain the rules without the dm wanting to beat you over the head with the core rule book. They're worried someone is going to try an argument like this.

Huh? Did I get something wrong?

I've always held the philosophy to "always know the rules you're breaking."

You cannot directly follow up an opponent who preformed a 5-foot step without the Step Up feat

By that same logic, you can't 5 foot step after an opponent when it is your turn.

Init count 18: wizard 5 foot steps and casts

Init count 12: fighter 5 foots up...

Nope! doesn't have the following step feet. He can 5 foot step in any direction BUT towards the wizard....

You're also preventing the 5 foot step, which is specifically allowed.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.

So yes, it is your turn when you ready an action.

Sorry, but I think you must have misunderstood my post - I was replying directly to the discussion that erupted following my earlier post where I answered the question I initially posed with this thread.

If a player performs a 5-foot step during his turn, then you cannot immediately respond to it with a 5-foot step of your own, unless you have the Step Up (combat) feat. You can respond if you had a readied action prepared against such a scenario, however you wouldn't be responding to it with a 5-foot step (you cannot ready up a 5-foot step, as it isn't an action) - you'd be responding to it with the readied action, which comes with the possibility for a 5-foot step.

As per a direct reading of the rules, the triggered readied action would be performed outside of your own turn (it's interrupting another character's turn - akin to an AoO). But the fact that it isn't your turn in this scenario doesn't change anything.

It's your turn when you ready up an action, obviously - but it isn't your turn when you choose to act on its trigger, just as it isn't your turn when you choose to act on an AoO. The technical difference here would be that an AoO isn't an "action" (per rules), which means you cannot take a 5-foot step during an AoO - however, taking a triggered readied action is an action, which permits you to take 5-foot steps.

I apologize that I didn't make myself clear the first time around. :S And by all means point out any mistakes I might have made - I like being wrong, it means I'll likely be less wrong next time.

Woah, didn't expect this thread to continue.

I'd argue that Remy is right to point out the potential rules discrepancy between the text of Following Step. However to that point, I'll point to the actual text of Following Step

Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.

The text states nothing about "turns", it simply states that the only way you can follow an opponent using a 5-foot step is by having the Step Up combat feat. And I don't see where it would be wrong: You can ready up an action in response to a 5-foot step, however you wouldn't be following that with a 5-foot step, you would follow it up with an action (under which you'd take a 5-foot step, if legal).

As stated earlier, a 5-foot step isn't an action; it's something you do as a part of an action - thus you cannot ready up a 5-foot step, you can only ready up an action under which you use a 5-foot step.

So per that, the text doesn't break any RAW, it's perfectly consistent with itself. You would follow up with an action, not a 5-foot step.

I would agree with Remy that your turn ends once you've readied up an action, regardless of whether the action is triggered or not, text the pretty much states as much.

TL;DR:
1. Taking a readied action doesn't count as "your turn",
2. You cannot directly follow up an opponent who preformed a 5-foot step without the Step Up feat

While we are on the subject of five foot steps. Can You: Draw a weapon (mv), Take a Five Foot Step (no action), and then attack?

Yes, you can. ;)

I'm thinking about subscribing to Pathfinder Core, Adventure, Campaign, Player and Modules - however I have a problem with the "Hard copy + pdf" part of the deal, particularly the part where I cannot receive physical+pdf versions of older copies that shipped earlier. This puts me in a particularly frustrating position where I feel like I'm being unreasonably punished for not discovering Pathfinder earlier.

Right now, the current Adventure Path is "Mummy's Mask", which I'd love to receive - however the current issue is the second in the series - which means that if I were to subscribe right now, I wouldn't have the first part of the adventure path. That is; I wouldn't receive both the hardcover and pdf version.

Should wait for the Iron Gods adventure path before I subscribe? Because I find the value to be significantly diminished when I have to choose between a hardcopy or a pdf copy - and I certainly ain't interested in paying TWICE for every copy (not to mention shipping, as I live in Europe). Why isn't there an option for new players/GMs to join in on purchasing non-current copies in both pdf and hardcover format without essentially paying double? Purchasing all the previously released material is already expensive enough as it is.

Alright, I read through the replies and pretty much came to the conclusion that you cannot perform a 5-foot step without either a Prepared Action or the Step Up combat feat:

1. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. (CORE p189)

• States that a 5-foot step revolves (and is made) around your other actions, and doesn't state anything about using it in an opponent's turn without doing anything else.
  2. Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.) (CORE p178)
  
• States that the only unaltered action exceptions involve AoO and SIA (though not mentioning Free Actions or Immediate Actions)
  3. Following Step Combat Feat ~~~~ Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up. (APG p160-161)
  
• While all the other rules are a little vague at best, this feat's text specifically lists Step Up as the only way one can follow an opponent with a 5-foot step. In other words; I was wrong. ;-)
  

TL;DR: No, you cannot take a 5-foot step unless you're performing an action before, during, or after said step.

Thanks to all who replied, and a special thanks to Ulfen Death Squad who mentioned the Following Step feat ;)

I still like the idea of it, so probably will let my group run with it at some point to see if there are any real balance pitfalls with it.

I was reading up about the 5-foot step and was wondering, can you take a 5-foot step in response to someone else making a 5-foot step, assuming you would be able to do so if this was your own turn?

Example:
PlayerA and PlayerB spent the first round next to eachother and staring eachother down. (None of them have prepared ANY action.)
On round2 PlayerA takes a 5-foot step away from PlayerB, so he can cast something out of AoO range.
> Can PlayerB take a 5-foot step straight after PlayerA, but before he knows what PlayerA wishes to do?

The rules in the Core rulebook don't appear to be very clear on this. They IMPLY that you cannot - however the wording states that "You can take a 5-foot step before, during or after your other actions in the round", so you could imply that "after" or "before" your actions would include your opponents actions.

I know about the Step Up combat feat, however this ruleset wouldn't invalidate said feat, as picking this feat would simply mean you could (essentially) take two 5-foot steps in a given combat round (5-foot step during your turn, then 5-foot step as an "immediate action" during your opponents turn in response to his 5-foot step)

Example:
PlayerA walks up to PlayerB, smacks him in the face.
PlayerB takes a 5-foot step back out of AoO range
> If PlayerA has Step Up, he can 5-foot step up at this point (while forfitting his 5-foot step or 5 ft of movement next turn) otherwise he wouldn't be able to close the distance because he already performed a movement last turn.
>> PlayerB starts casting something~~~~

TL;DR: Can you perform a 5-foot step (assuming you haven't performed any "movement" this round) during an opponents turn?