Mazra's page

I just want to forget that 4e ever happened at all. But at least one good thing happened because of it....Pathfinder 1e.

Yep. Disappointment with 4E led to me giving Pathfinder a try. But what really hooked me was the quality of the Rise of the Runelords AP. It was easy to become immersed in the story and the wonderful town of Sandpoint.

Thanks Paizo for making great adventures. I haven't had a homebrew ever since.

There’s lots about size of print runs and that impact on profitability too, but the two issues above are the big ones - splitting the fanbase is an enormous risk and no matter where you and I are, the market has moved away from PF1. This is why I think 3PP is the best chance of ongoing support - they don’t have to...

Steve you may be right. My crystal ball is broke, so I cannot predict the future. But history is often a great teacher.

Ironically, Paizo is following the same pattern of another prior company...TSR. What happened to them?

Wizards of the Coast has a vast lifeline. It is called HASBRO. They are not going anywhere.

My hope is for the long term success of Paizo. They are the best. D&D Second Edition did not help TSR in the end. I am not sure PF2E will help Paizo. I sure they know what they are doing.

So long PF1e. It was great!

Cheers,

Mazra

I haven’t learned PF2 enough to be confident in the system, although I have been in a few scenarios recently. And my 5E GM rage quit when they reneged on the digital support he expected, so we haven’t tried it since.

Good reasons. I have always liked Paizo's digital support system. In addition to face-to-face campaigns, I have run message board campaigns on this site and email campaigns with friends and family. Paizo's digital content has made that possible and richly so. I actually thought about running a 5e campaign, but was discouraged by the lack of digital support.

But my main motivation for starting this thread was the fact that there was no way I could convert my Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign to PF2e. It just wouldn't work. And then we started to compare them more and more. It became clear to us that PF2e was nowhere near as robust as PF1e. Maybe someday. But it will take years for PF2e to become anywhere near what PF1e currently is.

And then I wondered if PF1e was a dead system to Paizo? And I found it that it is. And that makes me very sad. Sure we still have the content. But I will be looking for more. And there is so much more that can be added, tweaked, improved upon, etc. But this Baby has been thrown out with the Bathwater.

And with no support, more and more will fall away until there is nothing. And the problem with that, and here I go again, is that PF1e is the best D&D based RPG game system to date. It is better than all the others. Again, that is my opinion. YMMV. But you are still running several 1e campaigns. If it wasn't a solid system, you would not be running them, nor would I.

Cheers,

Mazra

Steve, that doesn't change my thought processes.

It is like a family business. The younger child has more income potential to the family business now than the older child. So let's just get rid of the older child.

I get that it is all about money. And I am fine with Paizo devoting the bulk of their talents to their new game system. That makes good business sense to support the new product line. I just don't understand totally abandoning the old product line, particularly when they are very different from one another.

They could rebrand PF1e as PATHFINDER CLASSIC. And write APS for both 2e and Classic. It is mostly about the stories anyway. That way Paizo will still get my money too. Because they will not be getting my money for PF2e. At least not anytime soon.

Ironically, I have still been buying Paizo stuff for my 1e campaigns.

Steve, I am just not ready to let it go. It looks like most of you are. And that is your choice.

Cheers,

Mazra

Mazra wrote:

gnoams wrote:

but 1e d&d compared to pf2 is as different a rules set as comparing warhammer to either. RPGs don't exist in a vacuum. As pathfinder proved, players will jump brands.

I disagree. Warhammer was built from a miniature wargaming system and added RPG elements. D&D was an RPG from the get.

This is flat out wrong, DnD came from wargaming. Chainmail?

You are right. D&D grew from the Chainmail wargame system. But it became the definitive RPG. And since then it has not been a wargame system. Sure, there will always be combat elements, but for many of us it is the role-playing elements that makes it different.

I played Warhammer, and it was more about moving fantasy armies on a battlefield than RPG. It may be different now, but what I played was nothing like D&D. Pathfinder is like D&D. And with it, so is PF2e.

but 1e d&d compared to pf2 is as different a rules set as comparing warhammer to either. RPGs don't exist in a vacuum. As pathfinder proved, players will jump brands.

I disagree. Warhammer was built from a miniature wargaming system and added RPG elements. D&D was an RPG from the get. PF2 is far closer to PF1 and the original D&D than Warhammer. But, that is just my thoughts and opinions.

And yes, we will jump brands. I jumped from D&D to Pathfinder. And if I find something I like better than PF1, I will jump away from it. But at present, PF2 or 5e, aren't it for me.

And this is what we call moving the goalposts.

The original goal post was always about the D&D based RPGs. All my points were based on 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, PF1e and PF2e. And not Warhammer or any other gaming system. When I talked in global terms it was meant as definitive to the D&D Fantasy RPG systems within this PF1e forum. Others brought up other gaming systems. Personally, I don't play other systems. PF1e has been enough for me for much of the last ten years.

As to 2e having more monsters than PF1e, I would need to see a count to believe that 2e has more monsters created than the six PF1e bestiaries and other PF1e monsters in ancillary works. Paizo has been busy.

So when P2 has more content than P1 it will be better than P1?

It may be. And if it is, then I too may abandon PF1e for the better D&D Based Fantasy RPG. But at present it is not. And I am talking about right at this point in time. And again, that is my opinion.

In retrospect, I abandoned 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5, and 4e for PF1e. And the reason is because I really enjoy Pathfinder 1e, Golarion, the APs, just about everything about it. PF2e and 5e just isn't there yet. Maybe someday.

Why should I give up what I like best for something lesser? Just because it is new. New does not mean better.

Why does it have to be D&D-based? Is that an admission that PF isn’t the best system but instead the best D&D-based system?

This is why you need to define what you mean by “best”. Instead of saying Rush is the best band, you said best rock band, which is a less grand claim for certain.

Edit:

Mazra wrote:

OK. Which D&D based Fantasy RPG has MORE character classes?

After confirming, Warhammer Fantasy RPG.

Forgive me TriOmegaZero, but this is a PF1e forum. An PF1E came from the D&D 3.5 OGL. So yes. I am talking about best D&D based RPG Fantasy Gaming System. Warhammer has been around for a long time too. But it is not D&D. Personally, I never cared for the Warhammer combat system.

Warhammer may be as robust, if not more, than PF1E. Truthfully, I have no idea. But it is not a D&D based system. It is its own system.

And yes, RUSH is the best ROCK BAND. It is not the best JAZZ BAND. So, I am not talking globally here about every gaming system in the world or every genre of music for that matter. I having been talking about from the very first post I entered in creating this thread about D&D based RPGS. And my observation that PF2 is nowhere near as great as PF1 IMHO. And I am very sad that Paizo has abandoned PF1. And I can add 4e and 5e to that statement that IMHO PF1e is better. PF1e is better than 1e, 2e, 3e, and 3.5. But again that is my opinion. YMMV

PF1 is my ONLY system. I started on D&D 3.5. I regret letting my charter subscriber tag go. I regret selling my AP hard copies when they were taking up shelf space I couldn’t afford. I’ve never played anything else for more than a few sessions. And I can say that plenty of other systems have all those things you list and more. PF is good, but it’s not the best, just the best for you and me.

OK. Which D&D based Fantasy RPG has MORE character classes?

MORE monsters?

MORE rules? ;)

I know it is neither PF2e or 5e. So which is it? There may be one out there, I am just not aware of it.

Now best is a term that is very subjective. That is why I often use the term YMMV. PF1E is the best for me and my group. And it is because you get MORE with it. For me MORE is better. And PF1E has the most. What D&D based Fantasy RPG system has MORE?

For me RUSH is the best Rock Band of all time. I am willing to bet that there are many of you out there that disagrees with this statement. Same is true for PF1E.

Cheers,

Mazra

If you’re going to say PF1 is the best, you’ll need to define what you mean. Because it’s not the best at everything, if it is even the best at anything.

YMMV. And this is simply my opinion. Clearly, PF1E is not your system. To each his own.

PF1E has the most variety, most options in character classes, vast bestiary, huge number of adventures. And it feels like D&D 1st edition, but more robust. I like that. Could it be improved? Sure. That is why it still needs to be supported.

So, how do others experiences or views vary? What makes a game "feel" like D&D to you?

Everyone has different experiences.

All I know is that 4e did not feel like the prior game systems. I had DMed them all 1e, 2e, 3.0, 3.5. Some of 4e's issues had to do with poorly written adventures, but some of it was game mechanics. After over a year of running a 4e campaign we gave it up to give Rise of the Runelords a try. It didn't take long to feel like we were back in to a comfortable pair of shoes after one that was not comfortable. Paizo just kept making it better.

Now they are not.

Mazra wrote:

Isn't the fact that there is a PF 2E already splitting the fan base?

Not really. They've revived a shrinking fanbase. Lots of RPGs have followed the same approach.

Of course it is. Anytime someone stops playing or supporting a system to play another, that systems fan base has been eroded. 5e has clearly eroded the fan base for PF1e. PF2 is a response to that. And PF2 has already replaced PF1. I am sure Paizo is hoping to pick up 5e support. But 5e has become a different animal. It is juggernaut. Not only has it garnered support from those that once played other systems, it has attracted new supporters. My issue is that neither 5e or PF2 are better systems than PF1e. This is my opinion. I don't like seeing the best system not being supported. And that is what is happening.

Mazra wrote:

TSR was bought out by Wizards, which in turn was bought by Hasbro.

So, you think that Paizo should mess up Paizo until it is basically closed down and another company can buy it for a pittance? I don't think that's a great business model.

This comment had nothing to do with Paizo. It was a comment of what factually happened in the past to TSR and then Wizards.

Mazra wrote:

The OGL is what gave Paizo life and the ability to create Pathfinder from the 3.5 system. Wizards did not benefit from the OGL, at least not by much.

Well, that's not what the people who revived DnD thought. They didn't create the OGL out of the goodness of their hearts. They did it to revive DnD, and it worked. You are directly contradicting Ryan Dancey here.

At the time, Wizards did not benefit from the 3.5 OGL. They were focused on 4e. Paizo benefited greatly from the 3.5 OGL. It made them an RPG gaming force. Paizo had lost their publishing rights for their D&D magazines. The 3.5 OGL gave Paizo a lifeline. It in effect created Pathfinder. For Wizards it created 4e. I think Paizo won that one.

However, I will give Wizards credit, they have seriously revived their D&D brand with 5e. I am just not a fan.

Mazra wrote:

Now Fifth Edition revived the D&D brand for Wizards. Before that Pathfinder 1E was king. Fourth Edition was all but a dead RPG system. But then Fourth Edition was a terrible system.

Don't get me wrong, Fifth Edition and PF 2E may have their place in the world. Fifth Edition is very popular. But at present, I have no interest in moving to PF2E or D&D5E.

Me neither. I'm sticking with PF1e, I just don't see any reason to suggest that Pazio should still make PF1e content just for me.

If it is just you, then you are right. Is it just you? I am sticking with PF1e, at least for now.

Mazra wrote:

There is a reason 3.5 did not go away. There were way too many of us that did not like 4E and stuck with 3.5. Pathfinder was the lifeline. And there is many of us still with Pathfinder 1E. If Paizo doesn't throw us a lifeline, then someone else will. Just like Paizo did with PF1e. It is amazing how some things come back around full circle.

I'm not convinced. I think Paizo had an opportunity (with their experience, talents and subscriber base) that most companies do not have.

3.0/3.5/PF1e may very well be a dying game system. I hear there are some out there still playing 1e. The content is still available. But, you said yourself that you are sticking with PF1e. For now, I am too. There are others here also. Are we it? I don't think so. I think there is life out there for PF1e. Someone like a Legendary Games may see an opportunity and latch on to the 3.5 OGL and support the system. The 3.5 OGL is still out there.

Right now, I honestly believe that if I took some serious three or four year 5e players and introduced them to Rise of the Runelords Anniversary edition under the PF1e system, they would jump ship. Now if they are just casual gamers that want something simple, then no. But if they have a taste for RPG and want to take it to the next level, then PF1e is the next level. It maybe older, but it is far more robust.

IMHO PF1e just needs tweaking and not replaced. There may be a quality gaming publisher out there that will throw out a lifeline and support the system. I would prefer Paizo. But it looks like that will not be happening.

Cheers,

Mazra

I got to say that I'm currently in the same bucket as AllenDM and Mazra. I started RPGs back with D&D Red box... I bought the 4th edition rules, but moved to PF1 after a bit. Why? 4E didn't feel like a D&D game at the table. PF2 doesn't feel like a D&D game at the table either. So it's pretty likely I'm not going to move... I'm still trying to play PF2, but it doesn't feel right. Call it nostalgia, call it what you will.

It seems to be to some of us old schoolers. PF1E may be the penultimate system extension from the original 1st edition D&D. Sadly, it may very well be the end; at least, in terms of being a continually supported system.

PF1E felt like classic D&D, except with a rich new world with excellently written adventures. I have either GMed or played some or all of Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, Kingmaker, Skull & Shackles, and Giantslayer. Most of these are nothing short of classic adventures. The one reality is that there are PF1E APs that still need to be played. And though it makes me sad that this great game system will no longer be supported by Paizo, I know that I can continue on. And maybe join up with some others to keep it going.

Long live PF1E!

Cheers,

Mazra

When PF1E took off in 2009 the essentially captured that entire market share which essentially means from 2000 to 2018 (18 years) the 3rd edition has been successful. Many people jumped off the 4.0 game which is why D&D scrambled to come up with 5.0 because PF1E took off and 4.0 took a nose dive. That should have been a valuable lesson...

My opinion but they went done the same...

Eighteen years is an awesome point.

The world has room for all these game systems. The question is, does Paizo have room?

At present, they are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Like I previously said, Pathfinder 1E is a great game system. 3.0 and 3.5 were great game systems. They are not systems for those that casually play the game. They are for committed players that wants a deep and complex system to enjoy a fantasy realm.

Truthfully, Paizo really does not need to do a lot to make this work. After all, they have already created the vast majority of the rules and APs. It just that they need someone to be a watchman for their legacy product. Someone, to tweak it. Maybe covert 2E APs to run in 1E. To make Pathfinder Legacy the Monopoly of RPGs.

Abandoning it seems like a huge waste.

Cheers,

Mazra

I played a couple dozen 4e games virtually last year due to the lockdowns and zero PFS 1e. Don't get me wrong, I'd strongly prefer PFS 1e, but I couldn't really find a group for it. Meanwhile 4e has a fairly significant Discord (7 games scheduled for just this week, though 4 of those are different groups in the same adventure) and forums with all the resources you need to play, in The Guild.

4e mechanics actually lend itself really well to virtual table tops.

I find it interesting that you couldn't find a PF1E group.

I am curious to see how many out there are still running 4E games.

And how many are still running or playing in a PF 1E game.

I am playing in one PF 1E campaign and running another virtually through email. I don't have issues running PF 1E virtually. There are plenty of online resources to make it doable.

I am actually thinking of running my CotCT email campaign on the Paizo Message Board with another group. But now I am wondering if there would be any interest.

This is discouraging.

How many people are still playing D&D 4E? There maybe some. But I doubt it is anywhere near the numbers sticking with PF1E.

4E had sales because it was D&D. They had sales on the strength of the Brand Name. It took a while for Pathfinder to build its Brand Name. But where is 4E now?

I guess you could say that PF1E is heading that same way. However, the big difference is that PF1E is a great game system. 4E never was. Again,YMMV.

I honestly believe there will be too many PF1 players and GMs that will feel that the other systems are a dumbing down their RPG.

If Paizo gives up the product, then someone, ironically like Paizo previously, will pick up the mantle. The OGL is still out there.

I appreciate the discussion.

Cheers,

Mazra

Isn't the fact that there is a PF 2E already splitting the fan base?

TSR was bought out by Wizards, which in turn was bought by Hasbro.

The OGL is what gave Paizo life and the ability to create Pathfinder from the 3.5 system. Wizards did not benefit from the OGL, at least not by much.

Now Fifth Edition revived the D&D brand for Wizards. Before that Pathfinder 1E was king. Fourth Edition was all but a dead RPG system. But then Fourth Edition was a terrible system.

Don't get me wrong, Fifth Edition and PF 2E may have their place in the world. Fifth Edition is very popular. But at present, I have no interest in moving to PF2E or D&D5E.

There is a reason 3.5 did not go away. There were way too many of us that did not like 4E and stuck with 3.5. Pathfinder was the lifeline. And there is many of us still with Pathfinder 1E. If Paizo doesn't throw us a lifeline, then someone else will. Just like Paizo did with PF1e. It is amazing how some things come back around full circle.

Give us a better gaming system than 3.5/PF 1E and I may go to it and never look back.

I am not convinced that either 5E or PF 2E are better gaming systems.

YMMV

I have found that PF1E has hit the sweet spot for myself. I don't intend on changing to 2E. I have read through the rule set a few times and even done some comparison analysis and play testing and I simply don't like it and I find it a poor advancement from 1E to something better. That is a purely a personal opinion based on 42 years of RPG experience and what I prefer as a player and a GM.

To say we are kindred would be an understatement. I have been DMing campaigns since the late 70's. Yes. I am old. But it was precisely your sentiments that made me start this thread. I realized that it would be impossible to convert an existing 1E campaign into a 2E campaign. And the simple reason is that 2E lacked the complexity.

As ALLENDM said, Pathfinder 1E is the SWEEET SPOT. 3.5 was close to the SWEET SPOT. If anything needs to happen, it should be tweaks on the crowning jewel, things that can make the best system work better, Pathfinder 1.25. (You need room for growth.). Pathfinder 1E is not like a 20 year old chair. It is brand like Cadillac.

Paizo became what they became on the 3.5 game system. Giving it up would be like General Motors giving up Cadillac. Really!!! How does that financially make sense?

I get the need to create new systems. New system sells books and Paizo is a publisher. Selling books is their business. But General Motors does not only have Cadillac. They have Chevrolet too, Pontiac, etc.. Does it make sense to give up an entire brand? Pathfinder 1E is a far more advanced game system. Simpler? No. More complex. Yes! It is the Cadillac of RPG game systems. And with Cadillacs you pay more for what you get. PAIZO, do you get this point?

Cheers,

Mazra

If you look at the greater world of rpg publications and other tabletop gaming, no company goes back to a previous edition. Ever. It's always move forward and make a new edition.

Thanks for your input. It does look this way.

However, this point is valid. Paizo benefited greatly from Wizards abandoning 3.5. They took that solid game system and built Pathfinder.

Now it does look like Paizo will do as all these other companies have done an abandon their prior work. After all, that is how everyone else has done it before. But is that the smartest move?

The reason Pathfinder 1E worked was because it was built on a tried and true system. That tried and true system is still there. It is likely that Legendary Games, or someone like them, will benefit from Paizo' s move just as Paizo benefited from Wizard's move.

Que sera, sera.

Cheers,

Mazra

It is because I noticed that there was so much that was different between 1E and 2E is why I created this thread.

If Paizo has made it CLEAR that they have moved away from 1E, then they have either done their homework and saw that trying to maintain both in some way was not economically feasible, or they have not done their homework and they have made a very poor business decision.

I think there is an audience for both. But I have no data to support this idea.

I for one have not left 1E. I have thought about starting a D&D 5E campaign, but we jumped into CotCT instead. Some day I may try a PF 2E campaign, but there is still a lot of APs I have yet to run. And it is all about story telling. And there are some great PF 1E stories I have yet to tell.

I just recently picked up the Pathfinder 2E Core Rulebook. And though there is a ton of differences there is also a ton of things alike to 1E.

Printing things cost big bucks. But edited PDFs, though labor intensive, could be a thought if time spent equals or exceed revenue generated. It is all about the gold, man.

I am wondering if Paizo has fully fallen in to the Wizard's mindset of not supporting prior editions. Ironically, Paizo benefited greatly from Wizard's lapse of maintaining legacy products. As Humans, we sometime have a bad habit or repeating the same mistakes from the past.

This is all personal anecdote and opinion so take it with a grain of salt:

As nice as it would be to get a few more 1e splatbooks or even just an AP, it just won't be happening.

Thanks for your personal anecdote and opinion. This is actually what I was looking for.

It sounds like Paizo will simply move away from 1st edition. And from a practical business way, that likely makes the most sense.

However, from another business perspective it may not make sense. This may be a poor example for some of you, but how many would go to McDonalds if there were only Happy Meals available? Some of us want Big Macs or Double Cheeseburgers. The point is that, if possible, supporting both game systems could actually generate revenue from both systems for Paizo.

Paizo built Pathfinder into a juggernaut because Wizards abandoned 3.5e for 4e. So which gaming company will step in and revive Pathfinder 1st edition into the next great RPG? Too bad it doesn't sound like it will be Paizo.

Again, thanks for your input.

Mazra

This has all likely passed to the posters above, but others may follow, and I see these were posted in the current year.

This is how I saw the situation. It is actually a good story.

Grau was likely disappointed, maybe even upset, that Sabina spurned any of his advances. And when he notices that Vencarlo was interested in Sabina as well, Grau became a bit jealous. This lead Grau to egg on both Vencarlo and Sabina. Grau could have easily preyed on their pride and vanity as both were exceptionally skilled and likely very proud of it. And Sabina, more likely, would have wanted a real go at her teacher Vencarlo for her own satisfaction. Vencarlo, on the other hand, would have wanted to show Sabina he was the better in the hopes that this would create a greater sense of endearment from Sabina to himself, the classic student crush on her teacher.

The actual fight was likely something that soon got out of hand. It was likely unintentional that Vencarlo struck Sabina in the cheek. He may have become a bit overzealous in trying to prove himself the superior. Sabina may have been holding back some too, but with the strike on the cheek, the adrenalin would have kicked in and she would give it her all with the results two of Vencarlo's fingers. I doubt Vencarlo ever gave it his all in this fight.

The pride of both would have been bruised and the whole affair would be a bad memory for all the parties involved.

As I put it when asked, Sabina would have initially been thankful to Grau, for it was because of his actions that Sabina is (or was) now at the side of the Queen.

You guys have a truly awesome party. The one thing you are missing is either a Paladin or Inquisitor type. But you are all doing well without it, for sure.

"Lug smartest Knucklebone Hill Giant. But as to Storm Tyrant, it all Chieftess talk about. But Lug does not know anything about him. Chieftess knew nothing about him either. Just tales. I guess he is a Storm Giant. Never met one. As to other Giants at Cathedral: Most have scattered. Only Stone Giants and pretty Slag Giant lady left," the Hill Giant seems sincere in his responses.

"I can play Harp." It gives Kaos a big gap-toothed grin. "Found in cave." Suddenly, as if out of nowhere the Harp appears in his hands. Every other string is missing to accommodate the giant's large fingers. But amazingly the big Hill Giant's tune was melodic and in some way the sound he made was peaceful.

GM Warning: I have no problem with the party venturing into the depths of the earth. But know this: This is outside the AP. We would no longer be strictly in the Pathfinder world. You would be in my world.

At about 1000 meters, Leira will note that the tunnel continues on into the depths. The Rogue Arcanist will not find any traps or any side passages, secret doors, or anything else at this point.

Ulfgard is still down with the unconscious Spire Drake.

When Haskyll gathers those in the cave to channel some healing, he will know that once again his spell was not as effective.

Droja keeps picking at the motes almost in an obsessive way. When Leira mentions a curse, and Haskyll says it as well, Droja tries one on herself.

Droja cast Remove Curse on herself.

The motes dry up and flake off like a bad case of dandruff. Droja gets excited almost like a school girl finding out that a boy she likes, likes her too.

She goes to Haskyll and ask Gorum to remove his curse as well. And like Droja's the motes dry up.

Droja goes to Leira, then Anga, then the Dragon person and removes each of their afflictions. She then looks around, "We're missing a Dwarf." She says this like she has lost one of her sheep. She means no offense, it is just her way. Droja was so wrapped up in the motes on her flesh that she did not notice that Ulfgard was not up here in the cave.

Leira 25 (AC19 56/69)
Haskyll 20 (AC21/G25 69/72)
Droja 18 (AC16 57(69)/71(83FL)
Ulfgard 14 (AC22/G26 83/126)
Kaos 11 (AC20/MA21 23/112)
Special Spire Drake 11 (AC30 -157/147)
Anga 9 (AC18/MA22/G26 53/67)

Droja has one Remove Curse left for Ulfgard. In Pathfinder I prefer Sorcerers over Wizards because I can cast what I want. The Spell List is smaller but who cares when you can cast six Fireballs. Well, the Oracle is the same thing in the Divine world. Droja was able to cast six Remove Curses. Clerics at least still have the Channel Energy. That is a plus.

This is an old thread that needs a refresh.

I have run (GM) Rise of the Runelords twice now.

The first thing to know is that Sandpoint may be one of the best starting towns ever created for RPG. It is perfect for beginner levels. It has iconic locations like the Rusty Dragon Tavern with its equally iconic matron Ameiko Kaijitsu. The town is rich and large enough, yet small enough to easily manage for newbie GMs.

As the party progresses they have Magnimar to go to when higher level. Yet, the AP seems to always return to Sandpoint in one way or another.

I came to Pathfinder after finding the 4th version of D&D cold with poor story telling. I have created my own adventures, but I also like running Modules too. I have run many of the old D&D modules, but my favorite of all is Rise of the Runelords. It is old school iconic, yet with very different patterns of play like keeping up with Virtues and Vices that make this unique to other adventures.

Simply put Rise of the Runelords is great story telling. I would love to see it played out on the big screen. I would love to play it on a PC like Pathfinder: Kingmaker.

I can dream big!

Hi Paizo,

Shouldn't this need its own sub-forum thread? It seems deep in the tree.

I bought this game off Steam last week.

WOW!!!!

First, I really liked the first Baldur's Gate. And this is Baldur's Gate on steroids. This is fantastic. This is the most fun I have had with a PC based RPG since Baldur's Gate. The ToEE was good, but this is better. AND IT IS PATHFINDER!

We need to support this game like crazy. We need to shout about it on the roof tops.

This game is more like playing the table top game than any PC game I have played to date. It has bugs. But nothing I have yet to find a good work around.

And I would love to see Pathfinder:Rise of the Runelords in the same format.

Round Two

Leira flies out toward the Drake. She hits it with a Ray of Enfeeblement. It resists the full effect, but still takes a significant sap in its strength.

Haskyll goes to the edge of the cliff and says a Prayer to give the party a little boost.

The Drake was just outside of your burst. However, everyone will get the +1.

Droja begins to summon in something to help.

Ulfgard flies out with a charge toward the Drake.

The Drake reacts to Ulfgard's attacks, but misses the flying Dwarf.

Spire Drake Bite AoO: 1d20 + 14 - 2 ⇒ (4) + 14 - 2 = 164d6 + 12 - 2 + 1d6 ⇒ (3, 5, 3, 5) + 12 - 2 + (1) = 27

The Dwarf Ranger also missed his attack against the well protected Drake.

Kaos goes after the Drake with a full set of attacks. Unfortunately, none of the attacks penetrated the Spire Drakes protections and tough hide.

The Drake back flaps his wings moving back a bit then spits another compressed ball of jet-black dust that bursts into a spray of clinging motes that falls on Leira, Kaos, and Ulfgard.

Accursed Breath: 5d6 ⇒ (2, 5, 5, 4, 5) = 21

Rounds: 1d4 ⇒ 3

Leira, Kaos, and Ulfgard must make a DC19 Will Save or take 21 points of Negative Energy damage, 10 points if you save. If you fail your Save you will take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks for the next 3 Round. If you make your save this effect will last only through the next Round.

Anga whips up something new. She tries to encase the Spire Drake in a prison of ice.

Spire Drake Reflex Save: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (8) + 9 = 17

The Spire Drake becomes encased in ice. It cannot fly, so it drops 120 feet to the ground.

Fall Damage: 12d6 ⇒ (3, 2, 6, 4, 1, 4, 3, 2, 1, 6, 1, 1) = 34

It survives the fall. The impact shatters the icy prison.

The Spire Drake took 34 points of damage from the fall, plus 10 points of ice damage. The Spire Drake is now on the valley floor.
The 34 points of damage was enough to destroy the Icy Prison. But I would say that was effective in this circumstance.

The Mule was eating a few blades of grass growing at the cliff's base. She is startled by the sudden icy crash of the Spire Drake landing near her.

Leira 25 (AC19 48 or 59/69)
Haskyll 20 (AC21/G25 61/72)
Droja 18 (AC16 49(61)/71(83FL)
Ulfgard 14 (AC22/G26 83 or 94/126)
Kaos 11 (AC20/MA21 28 or 39/112)
Special Spire Drake 11 (AC30 -122/?)
Anga 9 (AC18/MA22/G26 45/67)

Round Three

Since we are asking. How about a nice flowery dress to accentuate all my curves," Droja says then realizes you are talking about magic items. "Never mind."

Think the most beautiful dress on the ugliest woman.

Droja cancels her request, "I agree. No point in pursuing the flying deer. There is no glory in it."

The party continues on along the river's west bank.

The Phantom Chariot moves quickly though the crunching snow, even if at time it pauses to push through some melting muck.

In an hour the party turns around a great bend in the river. The sun now gleams forward and down on the party. But within another hour the party looses the sun as the river goes through a very narrow canyon. This slows the chariot's progress. By mid-afternoon the party is looking once again for a place to ford the river. But this time this is more familiar terrain, as the party has been here before.

It has been two weeks since the party last traveled this wide portion of Minderhal's Valley.

It took a little doing finding a good place to cross the river. The party pushes on as the sun begins to set over the western rim. You are at a wide place along another familiar canyon.

It is going on two years in real time. The party is near "E" on the Minderhal Valley map. Do you push on in the dark or camp?

With two Phantom Chariots the party follows the river to the north. Not long after the sun's light can be seen on the valley floor the party realizes that the navigable area along the river's right turns into steep mountain walls. The party finds a place to ford the river around mid-morning. They cross and continue to the north.

On the left side of the river trees and underbrush grow along the water's edge. After less than a mile the trees and underbrush become thicker to the point that the party can not see the river for the trees and brush.

Just before noon, the party reaches a point where another valley intersects with the main river valley. The area is wide. A narrow brook flows from this side valley into the main river. Not long after that a unusual creature with a stag’s body, a hawk’s wings and talons, and a head like a slavering wolf with a rack of sharp antlers on its brow rises above the trees and brush lining the river. The party notices this strange creature.

Almost immediately, four others rise from the river above the trees. One has a fish in its mouth. They too see the party.

Kaos' Iniative:: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (13) + 8 = 21
Leira's Iniative: 1d20 + 5 ⇒ (8) + 5 = 13
Anga's Iniative: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (7) + 2 = 9
Ulfgard's Initiative: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (9) + 1 = 10
Haskyll's Iniative: 1d20 + 0 ⇒ (18) + 0 = 18
Droja's Iniative: 1d20 + 0 ⇒ (12) + 0 = 12
Flying Creature's Initiative: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 11

I made some assumptions since it was not provided. I have Droja and Haskyll in the back Chariot with the Mule. The others are in the front Chariot. There is a new map up called "Icy River and Plains." I added a section off to the left in case it is needed. Kaos, Leira, Haskyll and Droja can react before these creatures. The map is in Slide instead of Google Drawing at Leira's suggestion. It is very similar.

The party stays in Leira's "Secure Shelter" for the night. Never-the-less, the party sets up the usual watches. The sounds of the outdoors, crickets, owls, croaking frogs, and the like is all that is heard through the night.

Day One Hundred and One

It is dark along the lake side well past morning. A natural obscuring mist hovers over the lake and the party. Visibility is poor.

What does the party do?

I agree. It has offered an interesting change. For instance, Agrimmosh is not nearly as effective, but the spikes shield is.

It has also allowed me to role play Droja with her grumbling and complaining side of her character. Not to mention, summon in a watery creature that I have never used before in any campaign.

Forgive me for this, but it is either nothing, a 5d8 or a 10d6.
Roll for whatever contingency. I will apply the appropriate damage.
The spell does not have the added affect to Detect Evil.

It looks very much like Google Drawings. I will see how it works with the next map.

Round Three

Suddenly a massive Dolphin, the largest of its kind, an Orca. Also known as a Killer Whale appears in the massive room. The creature shimmers with all types of colors in a chaotic pattern. It attacks the lobster-like aberration. But misses its bite as it swims near.

Orca bite: 1d20 + 13 ⇒ (5) + 13 = 182d6 + 12 ⇒ (6, 4) + 12 = 22

Droja swims a bit closer. She smiles to herself seeing the sudden appearance of such a massive underwater creature, "We might survive this afterall."

I moved Haskyll up using a move action. This would catch all party members and all monsters except the Aquatic Humanoid number 2 in the Prayer. As you noted, mobile devices do not work well with Google Drawings. I have had similar issues. However, I noted that the back button does work, so you can use this to reverse any errant moving of the maps. I have done this way too many times myself. Map has been readjusted.

Round Two Complete

Haskyll swims up some and says a Prayer for the party.

The Crustacean-like creature attacks Anga with its pincer-like claws. It barely strikes Anga with its first claw. It missed with its second. However, it has managed to grab Anga into its first claw.

claw 1 less Prayer: 1d20 + 14 - 1 ⇒ (8) + 14 - 1 = 212d6 + 7 - 1 ⇒ (1, 5) + 7 - 1 = 12
claw 2 less Prayer: 1d20 + 14 - 1 ⇒ (6) + 14 - 1 = 192d6 + 7 - 1 ⇒ (1, 5) + 7 - 1 = 12
Grab: 1d20 + 19 ⇒ (17) + 19 = 36

Leira 23 (AC19 48/63)
Large Water Elemental (AC18 7/68)
Kaos 20 (AC20/MA21 104/104)
Droja 20 (AC16 60(75)/60(75FL)
Large Aquatic Humanoids 18 (AC17 -11U,57,57,-13U/57)
Ulfgard 15 (AC22/G26 103/103)
Anga 8 (AC17/MA21/G25 48/60)
Haskyll 6 (AC21/G25 64/64)
Crustacean Aberration (AC? -33/?)

@Leira - Oops. I did forget this. Ironically, I had remembered it earlier. My old age is begin to show. Your Elemental is still on the board with 7 HPs. You can attack with it in Round Three. Thanks for catching that. By the way, it is the second and third ones that are still up. I noted the second one as unconscious. The first and fourth ones are unconscious. You would have Dimensional Slide to one still kicking for your flank.

Kaos will know that he is underwater.

Ironically it is Knowledge (Local) 13 to determine the species of the Large Aquatic Humanoids, and a 15 to know these particular Humanoid's traits. It is a Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 17 to know the Lobster-like creature.

Round Two Start

Leira becomes invisible and moves toward the Large Aquatic Humanoids. Though invisible, she is underwater and her movement creates a bubble under the water. Two of the large Aquatic Humanoids react to her displacement underwater.

Large Aquatic Humanoid 1 must roll over 20 to react to Leira's movement: 1d100 ⇒ 42
Large Aquatic Humanoid 4 must roll over 20 to react to Leira's movement: 1d100 ⇒ 42

Both notice the Rogue Arcanist's movement and take an opportunistic attack. Each one managed to get a claw into Leira.

Large Aquatic Humanoid 1 claws at Leira's movement: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (16) + 9 = 251d6 + 4 ⇒ (4) + 4 = 8
Large Aquatic Humanoid 4 claws at Leira's movement: 1d20 + 9 ⇒ (14) + 9 = 231d6 + 4 ⇒ (1) + 4 = 5

From the Core Rule Book: Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance). Leira takes 13 points of damage.

Leira's Water Elemental continues to slam into the first Large Aquatic Humanoid. Both of its attacks were effective, though not quite enough to stop the Large Aquatic Humanoid.

Kaos pulls out a piercing weapon, his Cold Iron Heavy War Pick. He sticks the first Large Aquatic Humanoid. It goes unconscious. He then turns and strikes the fourth one. The Heavy Pick pierces deep into the Large Aquatic Humanoid's chest. It too falls unconscious.

Both the first and fourth are out of action.

Droja begins a summoning spell.

Almost in a panic now, the remaining two Large Aquatic Humanoids fight for their life.

The second one continues to work on the Large Water Elemental. It viciously disperses the Elemental sending it back to its Plane of Water.

Aquatic Humanoid 2 Claw 1, PA, less DR: 1d20 + 9 - 2 ⇒ (19) + 9 - 2 = 261d6 + 4 + 4 - 5 ⇒ (6) + 4 + 4 - 5 = 9
Aquatic Humanoid 2 Claw , PA, less DR: 1d20 + 9 - 2 ⇒ (20) + 9 - 2 = 271d6 + 4 + 4 - 5 ⇒ (3) + 4 + 4 - 5 = 6
Aquatic Humanoid 2 Claw , PA, Confirm Crit + Rend: 1d20 + 9 - 2 ⇒ (11) + 9 - 2 = 181d6 + 4 + 4 + 1d6 ⇒ (2) + 4 + 4 + (5) = 15

The third takes a five foot swim and goes after the Dragon-like Humanoid. But either simply missed or could not penetrate Kaos' defenses.

Aquatic Humanoid 3 Claw 1, PA, less DR: 1d20 + 9 - 2 ⇒ (12) + 9 - 2 = 191d6 + 4 + 4 - 5 ⇒ (1) + 4 + 4 - 5 = 4
Aquatic Humanoid 3 Claw , PA, less DR: 1d20 + 9 - 2 ⇒ (5) + 9 - 2 = 121d6 + 4 + 4 - 5 ⇒ (2) + 4 + 4 - 5 = 5

Ulfgard swims up and hits the Crustacean.

Anga cast an empowered Magic Missile at the Lobster-like creature so effectively that she is not immediately attacked by the Crustacean.

Leira 23 (AC19 48/63)
Large Water Elemental (AC18 GONE/68)
Kaos 20 (AC20/MA21 104/104)
Droja 20 (AC16 60(75)/60(75FL)
Large Aquatic Humanoids 18 (AC17 -11U,-13U,?,?/57)
Ulfgard 15 (AC22/G26 103/103)
Anga 8 (AC17/MA21/G25 60/60)
Haskyll 6 (AC21/G25 64/64)
Crustacean Aberration (AC? -33/?)

I will wait a little for Haskyll's actions before taking the Crustacean's actions. But this is like two battles going on, so everyone can go ahead with what you will do in Round Three.

All that is found inside the Giant Gar was other smaller fish in various conditions of decomposition.

Kaos 24 (AC20/MA21 104/104)
Haskyll 17 (AC21/G25 64/64)
Giant Gar 16 (AC19 D/73)
Leira 13 (AC19 61/63)
Ulfgard 11 (AC22/G26 103/103)
Droja 4 (AC16 60(75)/60(75FL)
Anga 3 (AC17/MA21/G25 60/60)

Droja will look over one of the dead Hill Giants. She thinks to herself which one would be the most compliant.

She goes to one that took significant fire damage. After several minutes the Half-Orc Oracle attempts to speak with this dead Hill Giant.

Hill Giant 2 Will Save: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (10) + 3 = 13

Droja nods in the affirmative that she thinks she has a willing one.

"Why were you in this place?" She speaks in Giant without a trace of an accent.

The Hill Giant opens its lifeless eyes and looks at Droja, "We were ordered to go out looking."

"Another dumb one!" The Oracle speaks to herself...mostly.

"OK. What are you looking for?" Droja tries to calm her temper.

"Stuff," the Hill Giant says.

Droja just rolls her eyes.

"What kind of stuff?" Droja says with a bit of her temper coming out.

"Relics. Giant relics." the Hill Giant says.

Droja looks over at Leira, and then the rest of the party. "Any other questions for this pile of dung."

Droja gives a nod to the Fire Elemental. It then departs.

Droja then gives the Dragon Disciple a Cure Critical Wounds.

CCW: 4d8 + 10 ⇒ (3, 7, 6, 8) + 10 = 34

Then follows it up with a Cure Light.

CLW: 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (5) + 5 = 10

She looks at Kaos, "You'll survive." She says this in a particularly thick Orcish accent. She turns away from the Dragon Disciple and begins to look around. She goes over to one of the dead Hill Giants.

Again, think Russian.

@Anga - Spontaneous casting: Haskyll burned a Prayer spell for a Cure Serious Wounds. Then recovered the Prayer through a pearl.

Anga 22 (AC17/MA21/G25/SH29 67/67)
Kaos 17 (AC20/MA21/SH25 102/112)
Ulfgard 13 (AC22/G26 115/115)
Leira 10 (AC19 69/69)
Droja 9 (AC18 67(78)/67(78)FL
Haskyll 9 (AC21/G25 71/71)

@Ulfgard - Thanks. Haskyll too, I forgot about that additional effect from Agrimmosh. Old age...bad memory. It sucks getting old.

Round Three

Anga hits Blackie with a Magic Missile.

Kaos cast a Fireball in his Dragon form making it look like a breath weapon. It consumes all four Hill Giants. One falls unconscious. And one dodges away from its full effect.

Ulfgard is toe-to-toe and size-for-size against the larger scythe-wielding Hill Giant. The Dwarf Ranger pounds the Hill Giant with Agrimmosh. It weathers the blow. But then Ulfgard brings down a powerful strike with the Hammer of Unmaking. The blow kills the Hill Giant leader.

This Hill Giant had more HPs than the others. It survives Ulfgard's first blow. It didn't survive the second one.

With a shrug, and seeing Blackie fall, Leira hits the third Hill Giant with a magically infused crossbow bolt.

Droja's Fire Elemental slams into the third Hill Giant. The Hill Giant's clothing catches fire from the Fire Elemental's second slam attack.

slams 1: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (10) + 12 = 221d8 + 2 ⇒ (1) + 2 = 3
slams 2: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (18) + 12 = 301d8 + 2 ⇒ (7) + 2 = 9

Hill Giant Reflex Save Vs Slam 1: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (18) + 2 = 201d8 ⇒ 5
Hill Giant Reflex Save Vs Slam 1: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (2) + 2 = 41d8 ⇒ 8

Droja herself moves up. She has been praying about receiving greater power to vanquish those that try to rule over her. The former slave holds out her right hand with its open palm pointed toward the first Hill Giant. A ray of Searing Light springs forth from her palm toward the first Hill Giant.

RTA Searing Light: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (4) + 7 = 115d8 ⇒ (7, 2, 6, 3, 6) = 24

The ray of light, to Droja's amazement, hits the large Hill Giant.

Haskyll moves up in to the middle of the attackers.

Hill Giant 1 Nail Mail effect: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (10) + 3 = 13
Hill Giant 3 Nail Mail effect: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (10) + 3 = 13

The remaining Hill Giants seeing the approach of the Steelhand in its mail of Giant nails, has seen and felt enough, they turn and withdraw from combat. In other words they run away.

Anga 22 (AC17/MA21/G25/SH29 67/67)
Kaos 17 (AC20/MA21/SH25 53/112)
Ulfgard 13 (AC22/G26 115/115)
Leira 10 (AC19 69/69)
Droja 9 (AC18 67(78)/67(78)FL
Large Fire Elemental (AC19 16/60)
Haskyll 9 (AC21/G25 71/71)
Hill Giants 9 (AC21 42,-18U,3/85)
Blackie (AC? -63/?)

Round Four

Map Shift! I haven't done this in a while. What I do is move everybody toward the opposite edge from where the party started at the end of Round Three. In this case toward the left. The Hill Giants will be running away along the road, so the purpose is to stretch out the road. This is not a precise science. The end results is that the fleeing Hill Giants are now on the far right map edge with some party members on the far left map edge.

Round Two...well again mostly

@Anga - We will be moving to a Round Three with the party in pursuit of the Hill Giants. Please post both your Round Two and Three actions. Thanks.

Kaos charges, I mean flies, I mean both at the second Hill Giant. He rains Gorum's Thorn down on the hapless big lug.

Ulfgard chases after the Hill Giants.

Leira moves through the fiery brush as she calls out the the fleeing Giants.

Haskyll move toward the ruins and looks around.

Droja calls out in Ignan, or at least the best she can muster in this strange language the idea to chase the Hill Giants dto own. The large Fire Elemental moves toward the third fleeing Hill Giant. She then moves further down the road.

More out of a sense of fear than bravery, the second Hill Giant turns around and attacks the flying Dragon Disciple. Its first attack glances off Kaos' magical armor. But the second Hill Giant hit Kaos solidly on its back swing. It was more luck than anything else, but it was nearly a critical blow.

Hill Giant 2 Greatclub and PA Attack 1: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (10) + 12 = 222d8 + 16 ⇒ (6, 1) + 16 = 23
Hill Giant 2 Greatclub and PA Attack 2: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (20) + 7 = 272d8 + 16 ⇒ (3, 3) + 16 = 22
Hill Giant 2 Greatclub and PA Attack 2 Confirm Crit: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (3) + 7 = 102d8 + 16 ⇒ (6, 7) + 16 = 29

Kaos took 22 points of damage. Thanks for posting your adjusted AC.

The third Hill Giant takes the second one's actions as incredible bravery. Little does it know that the second one response was more a reaction like shooing away a stinging wasp. It turns and attacks the approaching Fire Elemental. It displaces the fiery creature's form causing damage to this infernal entity.

Hill Giant 3 Greatclub and PA Attack 1: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (19) + 12 = 312d8 + 16 ⇒ (1, 7) + 16 = 24
Hill Giant 3 Greatclub and PA Attack 2: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (13) + 7 = 202d8 + 16 ⇒ (7, 7) + 16 = 30

Both attacks hit. The Fire Elemental takes 54 points of damage less 5 points for each blow due to DR.

The first Hill Giant spurned on now by an emboldened Blacky, turns around and moves toward the approaching Large Dwarf oxymoron. It attacks. But even Enlarged Dwarves are trained to dodge Giant attacks. Ulfgard just ducked under the massive club's potential strike.

Hill Giant 1 Greatclub and PA Attack 1: 1d20 + 12 ⇒ (13) + 12 = 252d8 + 16 ⇒ (7, 4) + 16 = 27

Now Blacky is a bit larger Hill Giant and wields a scythe. He too turns and moves for an attack. But he wants a piece of that little flying dragon. The Hill Giant leader slices into the Dragon Disciple with its massive Scythe. This weapon is large and a fine example of its kind.

Hill Giant Blacky Scythe, PA, Vital Strike Attack 1: 1d20 + 14 ⇒ (13) + 14 = 274d6 + 19 ⇒ (6, 2, 6, 4) + 19 = 37

Kaos takes 37 points of damage.

Anga 22 (AC17/MA21/G25/SH29 67/67)
Kaos 17 (AC20/MA21/SH25 53/112)
Ulfgard 13 (AC22/G26 115/115)
Leira 10 (AC19 69/69)
Droja 9 (AC18 67(78)/67(78)FL
Large Fire Elemental (AC19 16/60)
Haskyll 9 (AC21/G25 71/71)
Hill Giants 9 (AC21 85,20,85/85)
Blacky (AC? ?/?)

Round Three

@Anga - I can retcon your actions, but keep in mind that the current location of the Giants on the map is at the end of Round Three. Giants 2 and 3 are at the same location. Blacky and Giant 1 were slightly off map in Rounds 2 and the start of Round 3.

GM Note: The problem with this format is the lack of intercommunication between the players at a table. Half the party pursued the fleeing Giants and half did not. There is a realism to this though, for in real life, different people may react differently to a situation. Kaos and Ulfgard are like, "no you don't" and chases them down. Where Haskyll and Leira were ready to let them flee. I could see a Haskyll for instance roll his eyes and now go after the Giants as well.

The party breaks camp and heads down the valley to the west.

Mile after mile the party trods at a Dwarf's pace down the steep rocky slope of this side of the great ice-capped Minderhal range. Though the party scares off a lizard or two, maybe a deer along the forested edges, there were no hostile encounters throughout the day.

By evening as the sun sets over the range of mountains to the west, the party reaches a wide valley with a swift running river coursing through its heart. Tall grasses and shrubs cling to the river's edges. This larger valley aligns northwest to southeast.

Anga's Mage Armor, and Droja's False Life spells wear off.

What does the party do? Minderhal Map updated. The Hammer Agrimmosh symbol is the current location of the party.

I will GMPC Anga for the foreseeable future. At some point, depending on the party's consensus, we may reach out for a replacement.

Thanks,

Mazra

If Anga does not post today, I will GMPC her actions and move on.

Leira arrow will drop the second Frilled Lizard. The one on Ulfgard.

One to go!