Master of the Dark Triad's page

He could possibly get caught in the middle of a conflict between two (or more) demons, something he'd only survive by being a much lower priority to either of the demons compared to the other demon.

Pteranadon is large

Same issue as the shrike: it only has one attack. Its flight is also clumsy, but that's a secondary issue.

I'd say it's ruled out by this line:

Polymorph wrote:

Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type.

Animal companions are never "a generic member of that creature's type," each one is specific individual with stats and abilities determined by the class that grants it.

But hey, if you're looking to turn your mount into a giant bird you can always go with the impaler shrike. Slower flight speed than the roc and only one attack, but the bite it does have gets a lovely 10-ft. reach and 1.5x Str bonus to damage. Plus that one's definitely legal.

That's an interesting bird. I didn't know that existed. This whole issue arose for me trying to find a substitute for the Giant Falcon from Frog God Games, which I only noticed recently to be 3PP. The main thing I care about is the presence of three attacks; otherwise, it would simply be an almost straight downgrade from the mount's original tiger form. If you know of any other medium/large birds (or dinos, winged mammals, etc that fall under "Animal," please let me know).

On the topic of rules, thanks for that line. It's interesting, and I was unaware. The one response I can see is as follows: under the animal companion heading of the roc bestiary entry, it says that a roc companion is simply a baby roc. In other words, it is a generic specimen, simply at a different time in its life (as opposed to, say, a mindless vermin companion that only becomes agreeable and servile under the case of druidic magic).

Obviously this is subject to DM approval, but do you think this would violate RAW?

Specifically, can an Order of the Beast cavalier transform his mount into a roc companion, since it is a medium or large animal?

I have seen another thread largely agree that A. you cannot use templates in polymorph and B. you can only transform into animals that have rules written for them (i.e you cant just be a "Huge wolf" with the right Beast Shape because that doesn't technically exist); moreover, if something doesn't exist in the game world, you could never find a piece of that animal for use in Beast Shape (not an issue for druids and cavaliers, though).

Thoughts? Have there been any official rulings?

Ask GM, you have the necessary references to make your case.

If you were just looking for some opinions, I would say that grab might be OK. Pounce is a no. I would consider the diving attack of a bird of prey to either by a Charge or flyby attack depending on the bird.

In an argument I had with my GM about animal companions using weapons, I looked up videos of real life examples. I wanted an ape that fought with a hammer. That led me to some articles about apes that were fishing, doing laundry, engaging in prostitution, all types of stuff. I found footage of a chimpanzee grabbing a huge branch, used it to intimidate his enemies, and then attacked one of the other chimpanzee with it. (He still said no.)

For a more rules based answer: Check out a Garuda. It has a special ability called Swooping Pounce that is pounce for a bird. Seems unlikely that it would keep its pounce.

Look for other birds that have pounce?

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

No. Grab and pounce are abilities granted by form.

Sidenote: a character using Beast Shape II to assume the form of a tiger gets grab and pounce as part of the assumed form.

So, if you had a giant Falcon for an animal companion, your cavalier could give it grab and pounce by turning it into a tiger.

So, the polymorph subchool rules mention this paragraph about extraordinary abilities in regards to poly effects:

"While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form."

First of all, obviously it grants last decision to the GM, but it seems like pouncing and grabbing aren't so form-dependent that they wouldn't transfer from a tiger to a bird of prey. Clearly both forms can grab things, and I think there's a strong argument for calling a falcon/eagle's ability to swoop down and "attack" its prey (often by grabbing) as something of a pounce. Do you think this is within the confines of the rules, given, of course, that one gets GM permission?

Hi,

I plan on making a cavalier that, with the Order of the Beast, transforms his tiger mount into a Giant Falcon (a large animal, which should work with the level 8 ability). I was wondering if the grab and pounce abilities afforded a level 7+ tiger companion carry between polymorph forms.

Thanks for the help.

It might not be to your liking but here is a "Bird knight" build of mine that works exceptionally well that can be modified. There may be something in it that can help you.

Halfling dragoon fighter 1, sacred huntmaster inquisitor X
Anger Inquisition for rage (retrain to rage domain for smite and rage)

Feats: mounted combat 1, skill focus ride 1, ride by attack 1, spirited charge 3, escape route (never take an AOO) 4, power attack 5, extra rage 7, sacred legion 7, steadfast slayer or wheeling charge 9, horn of the criosphinx 11.

The build has a ton of reliable damage (spirited charge, rage, destructive smite, divine favour, bane, furious, steadfast slayer, horn of the criosphinx), a solid spell list, the teamwork feats and skirmisher trick make your AC much more reliable. The spells give you other means to solve problems and the class is built to be good at skills.

Grapple Stuff.

Dirty fighting, improved grapple, greater grapple, rapid grapple.

The goal is to standard grab/grapple, move action to move the target, swift action to do some damage, then drop them free action (or swift action can be used to move again).

There are items that can boost your bouses str belt, Ioun stone for CMB some that you maybe able to use with extra item slot. I don't have them all memorized. Spells from the inquisitor or cleric list provide the best options for increasing bonuses. Improved Spell Sharing will make your animal a monster.

Good grapple spells divine favour/power, resinous skin, heroism, Animal Aspect, hunters blessing, etc. basically if it adds to attack or AC (some bonues) it's a good option.

This is a really cool build. I'll keep some of it in mind, but because the group I'm in is small, we all run two characters, and my other is already a divine caster. I'm trying to avoid running another.

You could use the snatch and/or snatch and drop feats, and just not take the -20 penalty since you'll be dropping or flinging them on the same round anyway.

This is interesting. I didn't know about the latter feat, so thanks for the info. My mount can't take fly-by attack, though, because he doesn't have a natural fly speed. He only has one when my PC uses the cavalier ability on him.

Hi,

My last character in a campaign died, so I need to roll up a new level 7 character. The campaign takes place largely outside, so I figured now was the time to build the cavalier/mammoth rider I've always wanted to play.

The current (very tentative) plan is to start with 7 levels of Beast Rider Cavalier, Order of the Beast, starting with a tiger. That companion gains grab (on all natural attacks, right? I don't think the entry specifies). At 8th level, the Order of the Beast ability lets me shape my tiger into a Giant Falcon, retaining (as I understand it) the grab ability on all attacks, or at least the bite (since it maintains a bite attack through the transformation).

I mostly need help optimizing the grapple aspect of the tiger/bird. The end goal is to be able to reliably grab things, fly up, and drop them, but I can't do that if my mount also gains the grappled condition.

The grab ability lets me take a -20 to my CMB (!!!) to not get the grappled condition, but obviously that isn't reasonable. I've never built a grappling-based character; are there any feats that'll help me dodge that? Are there any other classes/archetypes (including ones for animal companions) that aid in grappling?

Thanks in advance.

As a side note: I've crunched the numbers before, and even with buffs the Form of the Dragon spells don't get you to a very good spot if you go with a normal caster (starting 18 charisma sorcerer or w/e) build. You need some base strength, dexterity and constitution to make Form of the Dragon spells look viable by the time you get there.

I ran the numbers, and if you're some sort of 10 Strength Sorcerer, you can cast as many buff spells as you want (Transformation, Greater Heroism, ect) but you won't get above the "good at killing lots of mooks" tier of dragon melee.

I had a friend that started a Draconic Sorcerer that was shooting to be able to make Form of the Dragon good in PFS once upon a time. The build had Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14, Intelligence 7, Wisdom 9, Charisma 14 and was going Sorcerer 6 into Dragon Disciple. By the numbers we ran, it looked like he would be competent in melee at level 11 so long as his strength was something like 30 by then, which he could have hit. He wasn't planning to wear armor: just Mage Armor & natural armor and such were going to be his defenses. Note: the skill requirements to hit Dragon Disciple by level 7 were VERY tight on this build.

That would have been a scary Form of the Dragon user if he had ever gotten to the Seeker levels.

Another valid way to make a normal caster look good as a dragon is to give it Smite Evil or something similar. For a primary caster that's most likely to be able to cast Form of the Dragon, that probably means Aura of Justice abilities or through Bestow Grace of the Champion. It sounds like you are hoping to play an Evil campaign, so that route may not be viable for you, but you could look for something comparable.

If you only want Form of the Dragon to look cool, that's another matter. If you want to use it and be a valid melee combatant, you'll want to look at something focused on it.

Therein lies the issue, yeah. If I just wanted to look cool and raise undead, I could just go straight sorcerer'/wizard. I just want to sacrifice 90% of magic for melee competency.

If you have access to wordcasting, Oracle with undeath is awesome.

And now there is a Dragon mystery as well (and it is a pretty good one) ....sounds perfect for what you want to me.

I'd just go with Expiramental spellcaster for Undeath, and keep the rest of my casting normal.

I wouldn't go into dragon disciple with this you are already 3/4 bab and d8 so melee isn't out of the question and the mystery gives you plenty of dragon goodies.

I'll definitely look at that mystery! It sounds like there's a lot of new dragon content out that I haven't yet seen.

From the other thread where you asked this -

Quote:

If you're not in PFS, there's the shadow dragon aspect spell as an alternative dragon-shape. I mention this because there's a totally different way of combining necromancy, dragons and the arcane - a skald with the wyrm singer archetype, using spell kenning to cast animate dead or command undead. A skald is a more natural melee type and the wyrm singer abilities include partial dragon shapes. From 10th level shadow dragon aspect will let them turn into a dragon.

Since only one of the rage powers is replaced by the archetype you could pick up the lesser beast totem or lesser draconic blood rage powers for claws if you want those early.

I didn't really expect an answer on that thread, so thanks for bringing this to my attention

Dhampir Cruoromancer Wizard. At level 11, you can cast Shape of the Dragon through spells (one level earlier than 5 Sorc, 7 Dragon Disciple). And you're kinda the best at animating undead. As far as I'm aware, you don't have to take the Necromancy School, so you have some options there.

If you wanted to go a completely different route, you could be a Samsaran Draconic Druid. You can pick another class spell list (Antipaladin, Cleric, Shaman, or the NPC class of Adept), and put some of their spells into your druid casting list...one of which should be Animate Dead. Then you can have zombie minions, a drake companion, and be in dragon form most of the time (at level 10, you're in Form of the Dragon for 20 hours/day. At 12, you're large form, Form of the Dragon II, all day).

Gotta head out now, but may come back to this later.

I think pure wizard would be too squishy for my goals, but I'll definitely look at that Druid archetype; and I haven't even considered samsaran. That definitely broadens my options by quite a bit.

Thank you, and if you do come back to this thread, I'd appreciate any other ideas you have

Hey, everyone. I've been gone for at least a year, but I'm trying to get back into hearthstone. I finally have a chance at playing my ideal evil character, so I'd love some general character building advice.

Goals: Be survivable/competent in Memer, be able to cast animate dead (or its wordspell equivalent, undeath), and EVENTUALLY (this does not need to come online early or anything, ofc) be able to change into a dragon a couple times per day.

Honestly, the ONLY spell I care about is animate. If there's some way to just get it or undeath and maintain an increasing caster level for it, I'll forgo all other spells. Just need that one ability. For melter, I'd prefer natural weapons (2 levels in ranger, maybe?), but that's not required.

I don't need specific stats, but I really want a character that can change into a dragon (so, dragon disciple unless you have a better idea) while being able to cast animate dead. I don't really care about any other spells but that and maybe command undead.

Preferably arcane, but if you can find the perfect solution with divine magic, then so be it.

Necromancers, arcane magic users, and dragon disciples are my three favorite concepts to play, and I'd LOVE a way to mix them.

The goal is to not be useless in melded while having animate come online at a reasonable level. Actual shapeshifting can come later so long as I have claws/bite to mess around with.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

I don't need specific stats, but I really want a character that can change into a dragon (so, dragon disciple unless you have a better idea) while being able to cast animate dead. I don't really care about any other spells but that and maybe command undead.

Preferably arcane, but if you can find the perfect solution with divine magic, then so be it.

Necromancers, arcane magic users, and dragon disciples are my three favorite concepts to play, and I'd LOVE a way to mix them.

The goal is to not be useless in melded while having animate come online at a reasonable level. Actual shapeshifting can come later so long as I have claws/bite to mess around with.

A really confused blind guy who was just trying to find his way home.

You could always just try holding your tongue until one of their characters actually dies. If their new PC doesn't act more cautiously, then that player is too stupid to actually reason with anyways.

And if none of them die, then I guess they werent TOO reckless.

Aasimars can get wing attacks with a heavy feat investment.

Is there some way to get a war elephant as an animal companion?

If you were a dragon, probably burning down a village and devouring still-living children.

To build off of the whole "immune to fire so you should be a blaster" thing, maybe in life you were a red dragon.

Now you're a devil with levels in red dragon-blooded sorcerer.

A lore warden fighter in light armor could go into shadow dancer, deal reasonable damage, and have good knowledge skills

There's a guide around here somewhere for fighters going into shadowdancer

Wait, SLAs no longer count for those prereqs?

Do mystic theurges suck again? :(

Unless I'm missing something, it looks like some good metamagic'd fireballs would destroy that thing, given that it has no elemental resistances that I saw.

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

Hazrond wrote:

Heres a thought, what about a Kineticist? They practically run off no items anyways

I wish I had access to copies of all the new classes

Kineticist is up here.

Awesome, thanks

Anyways, I looked at lore warden, and I feel like that would make a great combat maneuver character. They also are only proficient with light armor, which is what we start with.

The way I figure it, if you are obligated to play in a campaign you are not very excited about, the least we can do if give you a couple fun options to give you some more interest in it.

On one hand, construct rider vivisectionist alchemist is a great fit. You get a pet that can fight in combat, an almost ideal improvised weapon build (full sneak attack for catch off guard and a free throw anything feat in case they try and run away. If you don't find at least one opportunity to throw a broken beer bottle at someone I will be quite disappointed in you), healing, and some utility. On the other hand, construct animal companion is the weakest animal companion (I am playing in a steam punk campaign as a hunter with my animal companion based off the construct rider's). Not only are you limited in what kind of animal you can get (hint: pick the camel. at first level, +4 (1d4+6) is much better than +3 (1d4+3) and 2X -2 (1d6+1). Adding in power attack at 2nd lvl and +4(1d4+9) vs +3(1d4+5) and 2x -2(1d6+2)) but you have to REPAIR it. For an alchemist, repairing is the worst. You don't get mend, you can't share spells with it, and you can't heal it with your infusions. So basically be prepared to make craft checks and spend gold every time your companion loses HP.

edit: ^ This makes mounted combat a necessity for avoiding damage. The other weird thing about construct mounts is how front loaded their HP is. At first lvl they get +30hp for being large in exchange for never getting a con mod (normally +4 at alch level 1). On the other hand, unlike ACs the moment they reach 0 they are dead. So basically they are a lot harder to take down at first level, but the moment they go down they stay down

Ok, I definitely will not be using construct rider, then. Dodged a bullet there.

So, now I'm looking at improvised weapons and/or combat maneuvers. What's good at this?

Monk? Fighter? Barbarian? Brawler?

The way I figure it, if you are obligated to play in a campaign you are not very excited about, the least we can do if give you a couple fun options to give you some more interest in it.

On one hand, construct rider vivisectionist alchemist is a great fit. You get a pet that can fight in combat, an almost ideal improvised weapon build (full sneak attack for catch off guard and a free throw anything feat in case they try and run away. If you don't find at least one opportunity to throw a broken beer bottle at someone I will be quite disappointed in you), healing, and some utility. On the other hand, construct animal companion is the weakest animal companion (I am playing in a steam punk campaign as a hunter with my animal companion based off the construct rider's). Not only are you limited in what kind of animal you can get (hint: pick the camel. at first level, +4 (1d4+6) is much better than +3 (1d4+3) and 2X -2 (1d6+1). Adding in power attack at 2nd lvl and +4(1d4+9) vs +3(1d4+5) and 2x -2(1d6+2)) but you have to REPAIR it. For an alchemist, repairing is the worst. You don't get mend, you can't share spells with it, and you can't heal it with your infusions. So basically be prepared to make craft checks and spend gold every time your companion loses HP.

edit: ^ This makes mounted combat a necessity for avoiding damage. The other weird thing about construct mounts is how front loaded their HP is. At first lvl they get +30hp for being large in exchange for never getting a con mod (normally +4 at alch level 1). On the other hand, unlike ACs the moment they reach 0 they are dead. So basically they are a lot harder to take down at first level, but the moment they go down they stay down

Ok, I definitely will not be using construct rider, then. Dodged a bullet there.

So, now I'm looking at improvised weapons and/or combat maneuvers. What's good at this?

Monk? Fighter? Barbarian?

Heres a thought, what about a Kineticist? They practically run off no items anyways

I wish I had access to copies of all the new classes

Wow, thank you for all of that, first of all.

I really like the improvised weapon idea, and I'll look into that because being able to just pick up anything and smash people with it is awesome.

The feral gnasher idea is a no-go because racial heritage doesn't exist because only humans exist. This also makes a natural weapons build harder to make.

I'm by no means settled on the construct rider, and all your advice only made that more true. You've given me a lot to consider.

Good news!

Construct Rider was approved! I just wish I understood how to build the construct. I'll figure that out.

Do any archetypes stack with it?

I like bards, but I'm not sure what to be doing with my hands. Might not have a weapon for a while, but it's an option.

The construct rider is AWESOME, but I doubt it would fly in the setting. Still, thank you for showing me this.

Because I'll probably be using light armor the whole game, is there a way to make a DEX-based combat maneuver barbarian?

I'll look at the alchemist archetypes, thanks, and I'll ask him about crafting, because that is an awesome idea which hasn't come to me.

Anything else?

I also just thought that maybe a combat maneuver focused barbarian might be good (we'll be facing mostly human enemies, so grapple would always be useful), but I don't know where to start building that.

Play an alchemist or bard or a daring champion or even swashbuckler, but express your frustration about this. There's fun to sparseness; but the goal of the game is for everyone to have a good experience.

How about shamans or witches, is the GM killing hexes too?

I can't live off of hexes. Arcane magic is still limited

Play an Alchemist. It feels like your buddy is not-so-subtly hinting towards that being what he wants.

I don't like bombs (I also don't know how to specialize in them), good weapons will be hard to come by, and you can't just focus on extracts, right?

So, it's the next person in my group's turn to DM, and he's using pathfinder (it's the only system we know), to run a somewhat realistic post-apocalyptic campaign...

With very
Very
Very
Very strict rules on the kinds of characters you can make. These rules are:

1. You can only be a human. This one isn't a problem.

2. Start with light armor and nothing else; equipment will be sparse throughout entire game. This makes gun and bows users, monks (because I'll never ever in a million years get an amulet of mighty fists), and many other classes useless or pointless to use.

3. Magic is reflavored as alchemy-like stuff. Very magical effects thrown out because they could never be made with potions. This screws up arcane casters badly

4. No gods, so no divine magic (though I could probably get Druid and ranger "magic" passed, subject to problem number 3).

That's all of it, and none of it is gonna change. The people I play with are my friends, and I have no other group, so simply sitting this one out is not something I'd like to do. Besides, if I can find a character idea that's worth playing from level 1, I'm sure this campaign will be a lot of fun.

I just have no idea where to start. I'd appreciate any ideas that any of you have, thanks.

You're misusing heighten spell

I honestly find it difficult to believe someone could get all the way to being president while magically disguised in a fantasy game where a Detect Magic could ruin the ploy. It would also be near impossible that they were never in view of someone with True Sight when dealing with all those high profile and paranoid politicians, advisors and bodyguards.

I'm all for a plot line, but it should be well thought out and with as few holes as possible. Yours would need work in our group.

Thank you for commenting without helping the subject at hand. Really appreciated!!

I feel like both of those PrCs drain power from the base class(es), especially in the way of getting the feats I need.

Bump

Anything else?

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

See? New stuff. I'll take a look at the unchained rogue, thank you.

Also, sword came is an awesome idea. Completely missed that.

I'd seriously consider an Inquisitor with the Infiltrator archetype. In a world with magic it seems very unlikely that the leader of a nation could go unexposed to magical detection for long periods unless a) he could counter it or b) he had lots of assistance around him to prevent that from happening. The Investigator Inquisitor at least gets some protections from the basic forms of magical detection (alignment detection, truth spells, etc).

An alternate approach might be an Infiltrator Investigator. A little less magical, but he could use his alchemy to create / modify disguises and wouldn't be a terrible combatant. It's pretty iconic for an investigator to use a sword cane with studied combat.

If you want a melee weapon alternative to the nightmare fist line, you could just go with the Moonlight Stalker line. Combat Expertise ->Blind-fight -> Moonlight Stalker would work well to support an at-will deeper darkness tactic.

The reason I looked at the classes that I did was because I'd assume that any other class would be feat starved for this build. I'll look at inquisitor.

I'll also take a look at moonlit stalker. Sounds cool.

And VRMH, I'll look at that too.

See? New stuff. I'll take a look at the unchained rogue, thank you.

Also, sword came is an awesome idea. Completely missed that.

So, the story behind this guy is that he's the son of the highest drow matriarch of the under dark below this unnamed human nation. He was sent to infiltrate the government magically disguised as a human so that the drow could get a political foothold in the world above theirs.

Well, now he's in his second term of president of this nation, and he's slowly readying the country for the drow invasion.

Stat wise, I want him to of course be a drow, but not a drow noble. The reason for this is because I like to use my BBEGs as PCs of mine later. He must take the racial feats to be able to eventually use deeper darkness at will, and he needs the greater shadow eye piercing for the see in darkness ability.

Weapon wise, I want him to use something 1. Elegant and 2. easily concealable. For these reasons, I've thought maybe dual wielding kukris, a sword (which he could "hide" as it sort of being ceremonial), or unarmed strikes (maybe with the nightmare fist tree if at all possible.

Class wise, I have no idea what would work. I'm most partial to the nightmare fist idea just because it meshes well with the deeper darkness (and because it's SO COOL), but he will probably be quite feat starved. The dual kukris could probably be pulled off quite easily with a ranger, but I'm not sure how to exactly flavor that correctly with his backstory. With a sword of some sort, maybe just a fighter? Lots of feats for a bunch of stuff like the necessary racial feats.

It's been quite a while since I've poured through the rule books, so I also don't know of much new stuff. If you know of anything that would add to this, I'd love it.

All advice is welcome. Thank you!

Charisma based shapeshifter? Why, sorcerer all the way! They get alter self early on for humanoids, and later on, they can shapeshift into other stuff too.

I'm sure there are traits to get other CHA based skills, but I know you at least start with intimidate as a class skill.

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:

You could do this, but remember this:

If the giant is doing a full attack, and he succeeds to send the opponent flying on the first hit, all the following attacks will miss.

Just have the giant target someone else, then. Full attacks don't have to all target the same opponent.

If there's multiple giants, then there could very well be only one guy on one giant.

My point was that its simply something to realize.

Something with tentacles.

You could do this, but remember this:

If the giant is doing a full attack, and he succeeds to send the opponent flying on the first hit, all the following attacks will miss.

Hazrond wrote:

Avoron wrote:

There's a way for a Fighter 4/Hunter 8 to have two level 12 companions and a level 11 companion, sharing teamwork feats with all of them. Quantity and quality are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Care to share this mysterious method?

The new Fighter archetype with a Familiar, Hunter... honestly not sure where you'd get the third companion from since the Hunter lacks a Beast Master style archetype.

Really just supports what I'd said earlier: dial it back to ~2 companions and make them fighting-capable. Ten is way too many.

Nature soul-> animal ally?

I don't have the answer, but have a bump.

To my knowledge, this is the correct board.

Sorry I couldn't help more.