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Okay, so if the P2e playtest boards are not the place for voicing my opinion about the direction that P2e playtest has taken, where is?

Also, if only threads giving direct feedback about specific elements about the playtest are useful to you, and others 'get in the way of doing your work' why was this thread even read?

The title made it clear that I wasn't talking about that. It is clear that I wanted to discuss the specific and very early decision to end support for P1e (especially PFS).

Firstly, let me express my disappointment at the closing of yet another discussion thread, that people seemed to be having a reasonable, polite discussion about their feelings about not just the playtest, but the direction of travel in general. Before I could join in, it was closed.
The reasons given were:
1. that it had drifted from the OPs point - well yes that sometimes happens, d'uh, but also it hadn't, as the OP had given his POV, indicating he was interested in others', which is what they were giving.
2. that while it was appreciated that people wanted to compare editions, it wasn't helpful to Paizo's playtest process. Surely this is untrue? Do the Paizo staff really not care about the fans of P1e? Are our opinions irrelevant because we do not support the Playtest? Is a General Discussion of the Playtest area of the messageboards exactly where we should be able to have these conversations? Or does Paizo actually want us to just hide in a corner somewhere and shut up?

It is fascinating to me that when one of these threads is closed it usually has some sort of statement about hoping that the OP will come round to liking P2e, or will see that the final game will not be like the playtest. That seems to imply that Paizo thinks that these posters are just not understanding that it is a playtest. That when all the tweaks are sorted, with feedback from people (who already like the general direction of the edition), then everyone will come on board...with the brand new shiny books! Is that it? That sounds a bit arrogant. Or is it that they have already accepted that they are going to lose some of their customers. Which also sounds very confident, thinking that they are going to get more new customers than they are goimg to lose...

I wonder, as the title of the thread wonders, if there was ever a thought in Paizo, to keep supporting P1e? Even Microsoft supported Win98 for 8 years! I wonder if anyone in Paizo questions their decision to do so, when they see posts like this?

BTW, this is the thread I was alluding to...
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42d3r?I-feel-like-i-am-loosing-my-favorite-gam e

I know that the playtest isn't supposed to be being influenced by Society play, but surely the rarity system is an example of where there is going to be influence?

As to multiclassing, I recall the joy of playing a fighter/thief in ADnD, melding the two classes, yes being slightly behind everyone else, but never being left behind and never feeling useless.

Virtual multiclassing in P1 doesn't really fly for me, the addition of stuff from the other class is so slow, it's painful!

The hybrid route is fantastic, in my experience...playing a slayer really brings back memories of the above. There perhaps could still be more options (mage/rogue, I'm trying to engineer right now), but I can look to the fanbase for that, if my DM allows it!

Definitely not switching...see reasons above! Invested 10 years in learning and adapting PF to our gaming style and needs.

I, and my 14yr old son, are still using, not only the PF resources, but also 3.0 and 3.5 stuff (with a little work) - especially Forgotten Realms!

As has been written above, we have no interest in learning another system. If we had, we would have already switched. Have you seen how many options for fantasy rpg there is out there? It's not just about a choice between DnD or PF, there are still Rolemaster, Warhammer and the other editions of DnD and many others...

...now, if P2 was just an update, then it would be a different matter. If Paizo had looked at what I.C.E. have done with Rolemaster over the years. They kept the system, but have codified what they have. You now have the choice between RM Classic (the 'basic' game) or RMFRP (where you have all the options, like where even your culture has an impact on your character). They have a playtest on too, for what they are calling Unified RM. Apparently this is doing what it says - updating and bringing together all the rule sets into one.

That's what I wanted, an update that tightened and clarified things, with the changing of a bit of rules...
Hey ho...

Mentioning the similarity in situations of the Playtest and Brexit was meant to be a humourous aside. However, it is interesting to have someone as upset by me challenging Paizo over their unwavering confidence that P2 is the correct and only direction forward, as people who are passionate about the UK leaving the EU. It is not an insult, but an observation.

For the record, also, any 'malice' on my part was in my suggestion that the timeline of the playtest and publication was determined by financial concerns. Which was admitted by Diego; 'a business needs to have timeleines'. I'm sorry, but I just don't see Alpha into publication as possible, just as I wouldn't accept that in a console game.

I accept that the feedback from the playtest is helping assess if the mechanics of the game work, and will fix things that do not work, but I find it harder to accept that core decisions about the style of play, and how different P2 needs to be from P1, are going to be affected by a playtest. Are you seriously thinking that if all the playtest data had said, nope, start again from scratch, then the designers would scrap all the work they had put into it? Of course not, they have a timeline.

I also find it a concern that Rysky says that I can only be a sincere fan if I care about the game and the designers! Have the designers suddenly acquired some sort of cult status? Am I supposed to care about how much profit they are making? I thought the designers were just like the rest of us, roleplayers, but they have been more skilled at writing adventures, designing character classes, etc. I have friends (yes, even trolls have fwiends), who have designed such things, writing content for Wayfinder, organising PFS conventions, etc. However, I don't treat them with more respect than those friends who are 'just' roleplayers.

Also, is there such a thing as an insincere fan? Am I one if I show dissent to the designers' vision of the future of Pathfinder? Am I one if I am thinking of not switching to P2? Am I one if I'm not going to buy the P2 Core book, anyway? Am I one if I am desperately hoping that my only PFS Con of the year still hosts P1 tables?
If so, then I guess that is what I am. It probably makes me a troll as well. It probably makes me a Grognard, for not liking change (although I applauded everytime a new P1 source book, adventure, module, AP or character option came out, even if I didn't buy it).
Well then, in that case I am proud to be a half-troll, half-grognard...do I get to count as both in regards to race specific feats and magic items?

Edit: I only read Sam's post after I submitted this, but after a further read-through, I don't think I have breached the rules he has set out, please accept my apologies if you think I have. I especially am not trying to escalate, simply discuss.

Knew this would start some fun!
I am extremely grateful for the quick responses! I am more of an online stalker, and rarely actually comment, so the fact that my rare statement recieved such attention and response is appreciated!

I apologise in advance, for the length of this post. By the way, I have been roleplaying for 30 years, starting with the Red Box, also enjoying other systems, like Rolemaster, Cthulu, Cyberpunk, Champions, Marvel Supes, Star Wars, and even a bit of Paranoia, to name a few. Always coming back to and preferring DnD, until Pathfinder.

Mathmuse and Korolyth both brought up the bloat issue (in different ways), and I understand. I know that is a marmite/Trump thing - you either love it or hate it! However, it is nothing new. I still have over 30 books on The Forgotten Realms, with more rules, prestige classes, spells and content than you could shake a Staff of the Magi at! But to use bloat as a reason for starting a new edition (either to bring new players in, or to just not have it, and want life to be less complicated), is to ignore history (and the existence of "The Serpent Kingdoms", or "The Power of Faerun").

It also ignores the fact that there is going to be bloat in P2. Paizo is doing this for 2 reasons; for us all to have fun, and for us all to pay them for that fun. I am not critiscising them for that, they have a business to run and profits to make. So, bloat, or extra resources and options, as I would call it, is inevietable!

The trick with bloat, and always has been, to pick and choose. Your table, your game. If it feels too unwieldy, restrict it to certain books. Small, family and friends tables all over the gaming world do this. My son and his friends do this, because all I have ever bought is the Core, and because they are 14 and new to gaming, so that's all they use. With my 4 buddies, all of 30+ years of playing a version of DnD, we use everything we can hoover up, all the online resources, one of us has heavily bought P1 books through the subscription. Heck, we even use Mythic!

I am also getting the point about character disparity, especially at high levels. OMG! I am so fed up with this. I run a high level game (17 levels, 7 mythic, lots of campaign relevant magic kit), and at no time does this occur. Yes, the Arcanist/Archmage have a lot of power, but the way his high level spells work he rarely ends combats all by himself. He needs his team with him, taking advantage of his buffs.

As DM, I see my main job is to ensure encounters challenge and involve all the characters. So there are thugs to stand toe to toe with the Barbarian/Champion, there are foes standing back for the Archer/Trickster to take out, and there is enough damage and threat flying about for the Life Oracle/Hierophant to fix. Everyone's busy and involved. I learnt my lessons from playing a non-fixer in Cyberpunk! No matter what, high level play is going to be like that...and it's fantastic!

As to Diego's post...I find the comparison to Brexit even more so: P2 is happening whether you like it or not! Also interesting is the move of thread, I understand the reasoning. People working on tweaking the mechanics of the game don't want to be distracted by me wanting to discuss the bigger picture of the direction and overall design of the game. People working on how to get Resonance to work don't want to hear that people think it is a bad idea in the first place. I get it.

The final comments by Diago, on my naughty "if I was cynical..." are so ironic, because he then admits exactly what I was trying to suggest, that Paizo is foremost a business with timelines! Unfortunately, I think you got hung up on me being subversive and missed my point. The thing I don't understand is how you ever thought that opening P2 to discussion by the whole community was going to fit a business timetable? An Alpha playtest by the whole community? Now, if you had come to us with a Beta test, with everything in place, wanting us to test it for 'real', and tweakimg a few things before publishing, I would understand.

I then would also understand the fact that 'second edition is happening, whatever', attitude. This way round you have let us see into all the design decisions but don't really want us to challenge any of them.

When I read the blogs and designer responses on the forums, I see minor changes and clarifications being made. As one would expect in a Beta. Diego says "Whether or not you or others want to participate in the playtest and help shape the final form of that game is up to each of you. That's what this forum is for."

This feels a bit insulting. I feel as though decisions are already made, and participating in the playtest is not about shaping the game, but about fiddling with details. It is this attitude, that I, perhaps being biased, see throughout these forums. It is also this attitude that lead me to not even contemplating buying (figuratively or financially) into P2.

Of course, all of this makes PFS problematic...

So, this whole thing is fascinating! It is very reminiscent of what us happening in Britain at the moment with Brexit. A decision is made seemingly by the will of the people, but then it becomes apparent that not everyone is actually supportive, the decision is unstoppable!

I do, however, find it very disappointing how the dissenting voices are being treated. The number of threads that I am interested in reading that are subsequently locked is shockingly high. Now I know I can be accused of looking at certain threads, but I'm not bothered about little details, I am more concerned with the overarching and system design choices. Decisions about magic, character design, balance, magic item versus ability usage, etc.

Unfortunately, and yet again, we basically have edition wars! What a lot of Pathfinders originally left Wizards to get away from. I remember reading Paizo's explanation why P2 is 'necessary', and was just left feeling a bit empty. They seemed to say, 'hey, 10 years is a long time for an edition of a game', yes it is, and something they should be proud of, in my opinion. 10 years of a system that adapted to different play. Bored with vanilla Pathfinder? Then add a bit of unchained, how about some Occult? Not for you? Try Mythic. Nope, more of an issue with action economy? Try a different one. Main problem that everyone needs a Cloak of Resistance? Try using Automatic Bonus Progression. Too much bloat? Restrict your game to Core.

The 10 years of change and adaptation and options are the two strengths of Pathfinder (no, three strengths), and it is going to take another 10 years for P2 to even come close!

Looking at some of the design decisions, they simply feel like either Unchained Mark II (like 3 actions), or just wantimg to look different to P1 (see resonance).

I understand that Paizo are on an unstoppable rollercoaster, they can hardly say, 'do you know, we made a mistake, let's not bother'. I get that they have profit margins that are now tied into the product being published. I also get that this is a playtest. I just do not understand why Paizo would put all of this out in the community and then have such a strict timeline.

If I was cynical...

I still think that my main problem,is that, at home, I can keep with PF1, or mix and match, or convert everything I own to PF2 (which I haven't really had to do with my 3.5 stuff), BUT, at PFS events, I have to start again! No choice. New characters, existing ones all dead...this might be fine with all the people who play PFS every week, go to 4-6 Cons a year. They already have tons of developed characters and 'dead' ones who got too high level. It might be alright for all those people that have tried all the character concepts they can think of in the last 10 years. It might be all right for those people that have played in all the modules and most of the APs, so are looking for something new...but just look at the threads where Paizo ask what AP they should do next - loads of requests, but none for a new system, just the chance to go somewhere different or favourite in Golarion.
One last point...what if the playtest actually ends up concluding that the new edition is not needed? Is that an option? Or is it more like a government 'consultation', which isn't really paid any attention to except the parts that say the ideas is wonderful?

Well, this is all very interesting, but far too painfully familiar to me. I have, like others, played since Red Box, actually before, when we were allowed to have Hobbits, Ents, Balrogs and Nazghul. I am also from the group of 3rd ed players who saw 4th edition (especially the things they did to the Realms) as a betrayal.
I DM a very homebrewed version of PFS, with Mythic, items that grow with characters, and, to be honest, quite a bit of Monty Haul type play (Google it).We have been playing through The Emerald Spire for over 2 years now, and they are about to finally encounter the BBEG, Nhur Athemon!
I have only last year attended my first PFS outing, in the form of the very fantastic PaizoCon UK, and will be attending this year with my 13 year old son.
So, with all this in mind, what do I think of PF2.0? Well, I definitely have issues with PF1.0, but not with the system, as, at its heart, it is still my beloved 3rd edition. Complex? Yes. Heavy with options? Yes. Unsaleable for new, younger players? NO! I have a group of 13 year olds (with my son) getting straight into it from knowing NOTHING about roleplaying! As trainee geeks and Overwatch/Minecraft obsessives, they love the option bloat...and always suck up more!
Time for a new edition? No. Time for more optional elements that I can bolt onto my game , like mythic or levelling items? Yes!
My biggest reason to oppose a new edition is to do with PFS. I have an element of choice with my home games - if you don't like the program, switch channels...no problem, we can keep running the way we want. I am still using 2nd Ed, 3.0 and 3.5 resources and ideas in my PFS game, so, fine. However, I have 2 PFS 'official' characters of 2nd and 3rd level. According to what I have read here, I am going to be allowed to play them at PaizoCon UK this year, then retire them. That sucks, and sucks big! Surely we should be able to at least convert, or keep playing PFS 1.0? The fact that we won't be able to is, frankly, reminiscent to the financially based reasons for WOTC changing to 4th Ed. I want to keep going to PaizoCon UK and maybe other PFS stuff, but to be forced to change systems? Not sure...
One more thing, which links to points made by other posters on here. Starfinder. Great fun. Well designed. Some good ideas. Played a bit under, my hero, Erik Mona, at last year's PaizoCon UK. Enjoyed it, recognised PF in it. BUT, it is not PF in Space. It is different.
I do not want to play a new version of PF. Unfortunately, I think, that is what we are getting, and I, for one, am sad.

Cool idea! Especially as my party are mostly proud of their neutrality!
And lol...I just realised, first things sent might be a strike team of retrievers!

In my experience that's the job of a good Judge in occupying everyone's time...so in a combat there is a mix of foes to combat...Bucky was never just sat there watching Cape beat everyone up...he joined in,but rarely against BBEGS like Zemo. Interesting looking at the original Avengers and thinking the wasp wasn't equivalent to the others. I think it just takes a different mind set...not all about character builds and game balance, much more about telling a story. You might have got a buzz about playing someone hard hitting like hulk/thor, but you also got it deciding which gizmo to invent yet (as Stark/Pym, and you also got to be creative with more limited characters like Wasp - I had a character who obsessed about his hero identity to the point that he was always changing his costume!

Fantastic that this thread has been reanimated just as me and my kids have got into it..! I am a long time lover of the system, it's feel, it's randomness! My kids are both into DC cartoons like LoSH and even Teen Titans Go...so as you can expect our games can be a bit bizarre and hyper! Perfect for MSH - any more complex and it would ruin the fun!
Anyone else interested should really check out Ben Reilly's site and of course Classic Marvel site...

Hi I live in Halifax, West Yorks, been gaming since Uni (43-18=25 years!), mostly D&D, never got into 4th Ed or Pathfinder (due to children hiatus), now seeking others...enjoy both DMing and playing...
Cheers