Lithdoran's page

It's me again! I've made some revisions to my earlier revision.

Sadly, you can't edit your post after an hour of the original submission, so I'm just going to link the pastebin because I don't wanna spam the thread.

http://pastebin.com/jZbvXpYR

Ok, so, first things first: Great work! I really like the idea, and quite a bit of the execution you have here.

Inevitable [_)_)s: There are some things here I don't find, well, 'thematically appropriate' would be the closest approximation I could make to correct phrasing. Plus some rare balancing issues.

If you don't mind, I'll post my own little revision. No intention to upstage, or one-up, just my two cents.

Kitsune Bloodline:

Class Skill: Acrobatics, or Perception, or Perform, or Know: Nature

Bonus Spells: Charm Person(3rd), Invisibility(5th), Suggestion(7th), Confusion(9th), Dominate Person(11th), Cloak of Dreams*(13th), Waves of Ecstasy**(15th), Euphoric Tranquility***(17th), Meteor Swarm****(19th)
* = Can be replaced with Serenity or Symbol of Persuasion
** = Can be replaced with Insanity
*** = Can be replaced with Binding
**** = Can be replaced with Weird or Shapechange
Bonus Feats: Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell, Dodge, Combat Casting, Skill Focus (Knowledge: Arcana),(Knowledge: Nature), (Acrobatics), (Bluff), (Disguise), Spell Penetration, Persistent Spell, Iron Will.

Bloodline Arcana: At 4th level and every two levels thereafter you manifest an additional tail to represent your growing magical power to a maximum of 9 at level 18. The DC of your Enchantment subtype spells are increased by 1.

Kitsune Star-Item, 1st (Su): At 1st level you gain a bonded item chosen from a magical pearl, a fan, or a magical tattoo, each of which on command glow as Faerie Fire, shedding light as a candle. These items function as a wand for the purposes of its arcane bond and how it can be enchanted. This functions in all other ways as Arcane Bond. If these items are ever destroyed, they may be recreated 1 week later at the cost of 200gp/Sorcerer level, with a ritual that takes 24 hours.

Hidden Spells, 3rd (Su): At 3rd level you may cast your spells without either their somatic or verbal components. This functions in the same way as either the Still Spell or Silent Spell metamagic feats. You do not increase the spell slot required to cast an altered spell, but the cast time is increased accordingly. You may only apply one of the metamagic feats granted by this power at any given time.

Fire Fox, 9th (Ex): At 9th level you gain a +1 dodge bonus and +1 bonus damage on spells with the [Fire] descriptor, per die rolled.

These bonuses increases to +2 at level 13, and again at level 17 to +3.

(or)

Fire Fox, 9th (Ex): At 9th level you gain 5 resistance to the Fire energy type and +1 bonus damage on spells with the [Fire] descriptor, per die rolled.

These bonuses increases to 10 Fire resistance +2 damage per die rolled at level 13, and again at level 17 to 15 Fire resistance and +3 damage per die rolled.

Realistic Shapechanger, 15th (Su): At 15th level you gain the ability to change aspects of your form. You may grant yourself two claw attacks (1d4), darkvision (60ft), a fly, climb, or swim speed. These new movement types take the place of your walk/run speed, and using the worst maneuverability possible (Or -8 to climb and swim checks.) You may also use this ability to precisely mimick the features of one person you have encountered before. This grants a +10 circumstance bonus to fool others with your impersonation.

Ninetailed Exemplar, 19th (Ex and Su): At 19th level you become the pinnacle of your race, a true ninetailed fox. Your fur becomes white or gold, and you cease aging. You no longer suffer penalties due to age. You also gain Dominate Monster and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance as spell-like abilities. The caster level for these abilities is equal to your Sorcerer level, and are useable twice a day each.

That seemed needlessly antagonistic to me. Perhaps you could explain why you find Ravingdork's statement wrong instead of flat out calling it a falsity.

Also, to quote Ultimate Equipment PG 11:

Quote:

Half-plate armor combines elements of full plate and chainmail, incorporating several sizable plates of sculpted metal with an underlying mesh of chain links. While this suit protects vital areas with several layers of armor, it is not sculpted to a single individual’s frame, reducing its wearer’s mobility even more than a suit of full plate. Half-plate armor includes gauntlets and a helm.

This implies that half-plate is mass produced and there by not as effective as full plate because of it.

That aside, not all armors are going to be "optimal" that would go against the reality that must exist in these games. Is leather armor going to be as good as chain? No but it's cheaper and more readily available. Is hide armor going to be as good as a breastplate? No but same as above. The "less optimal" armor is included because these armors existed and people tended to wear them more often than the usually harder to get a hold of and expensive "optimal" armors. Just simply how this works.

I place optimal and less optimal in quotation marks because those are terms that really shouldn't be used since the main goal of playing Pathfinder/D&D is generally to have fun not building optimized characters. Sure I could make the ultimate Rogue wearing special magical mithril plate that is as easy to move in as light armor but that generally doesn't fit the theme of a Rogue as well as some dark colored leathers.

You're right, that was uncalled for, and I apologize.

Now, onto the rest of your post. Even though it's a mass-produced armor, the stats still represent it poorly.

Even if you do thicken the plates the AC should be higher to represent that, and the weight should still be lower.

And of course not every armor is going to be as optimal as another, but there should atleast be SOME reason I should want to pick a non-optimal piece over an optimal piece.

Take your Rogue example, you have a Rogue in leather, and a Rogue in a Mithril Breastplate. Maybe the Rogue in Leather would get a bonus to sneak because he's not in a bright, conspicuous breastplate? Or because he's not clanking around?

In real life full plate is more maneuverable than half-plate. Why then, would it be any different in Pathfinder?

I would love to join you in this reality you live in, but, sadly, I am stuck here, in the reality where your statement is bull.

I'm totally fine with them replacing all the armors with generic Light, Medium and Heavy armors (with Studded Leather or Chain Shirt, Breastplate and Full Plate stats), but that's another house rule.

I'm just saying, they're there for people who want to use them. Some people LIKE not using the best mechanical option.

That's an idea. Remove actual armor entries and replace them with 'Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor' and give them a set starting price point and stats, and depending on the amount of gold extra you pay, you can increase certain things (Like AC or Max Dex.) or decrease others (Like Spell Failure or ACP or Weight).

Or it could be a zero sum system where you choose a generic armor class, and you get a certain number of points, that you can distribute into AC and Max Dex, but your weight scales based on how much AC you have, and your Spell Fail scales with Max Dex, with ACP being based on weight.

This way, you can just fluff it as whatever you want.

You and your players are fully capable of wearing not-mechancically-optimal armor. No one is stopping you, and the difference is only like to matter every now and then.

Go ahead, implement your house rule. It's better than the Half Plate listed in the book. That's the point, right? If it's mechanics you're actually complaining about, then you can just as easily have the DM house rule that Half Plate has the same stats as some other armor, like a Breastplate or Banded Armor. Done.

I had a Paladin who wore "Light Plate Armor" for the entirety of a very short campaign. It was renamed Banded Armor, and my DM was totally fine with it.

Of course we're capable of wearing non-optimal items, but, what would ever possess us to do so? If everyone wants their character to contribute, why would anyone chose non-optimal armor when they can just re-fluff optimal armor.

It's not just Half-Plate I'm b*+*!ing about, it's every piece of armor NOT the Optimal 4. They're essentially just filler for filler sake, which is just bad design.

It's highly unlikely they're going to go out of their way to fix it, because even with your changes, it's still awful.

Fluff Full Plate or Banded Mail or a Breastplate as Half Plate and poof, problem solved. I can't imagine a DM who would have a serious problem with that.

My problem with this is that it feels like a cop-out, and that it feels like we're making excuses for poor mechanics.

The issue is that by trying to realistically analogue half-plate and price it based off comparable earth costs, the end result is that in Golarion, there exists a type of armor that nobody wears.

If you're worried about cost, you're going to go with Banded Mail or a Breast Plate. If you aren't worried about cost, you're going with Full Plate.

Within the Golarion reality, Half-Plate is a type of armor that offers no advantages of any kind. It's basically an artifact from a time before Full Plate was able to be successfully crafted and Half-Plate was the top tier. As soon as people figured out Full Plate, Half Plate immediately became obsolete.

Thing is, I don't always play in Golarion, sometimes I play in Homebrew settings or Eberron or something. Even then, what about the freedom of choice?

Most players will choose the optimal choice IE: Studded Leather/Chain Shirt, Breastplate, Banded Mail (for low levels and the poor), and Full Plate. Why don't we just remove all other options entirely?

I'm of the opinion that we should try to make every piece of armor have some advantage for wearing it. I realize that there will never be a perfect balance, but it feels like anything outside of those four choices punishes you.

Half plate has awful stats because it's 900g cheaper than Full Plate.

This matters at very low levels, where 1500g is a small fortune. Or at the very least, this is how it appears to me.

And Banded Mail is one sixth the price of full plate, and it has better stats than half-plate.

A breastplate is 50gp cheaper than that. Price is not and should not be the determining factor of whether an item should be useable without sacrificing optimization.

Half-plate is not simply half a suit of full plate with some chain. A lot of work goes into making full plate (even non-masterwork full plate is designed to fit one specific person), and the quality of the materials and techniques used means the suit can be made thinner while still preserving its strength.

Half-plate would be a form of munition-grade armor. Mass-produced, and of inferior quality (still, kind of expensive for mass-produced). Since the materials and techniques used are inferior to full plate, the armor must be made thicker to compensate. Hence, the added weight and increased encumbrance (ACP and ASF). (And a suit of half-plate can fit anyone of the appropriate size, just as mass-produced armor should.)

The problem with that is, half suits of plate are also forged for a specific person, when you're in psuedo-medieval settings, most armor that uses plated metal, will be forged to fit the wearer.

Even breastplates, which were the most common for a man-at-arms to wear, would have to have his breastplate sized, lest he risk not being able to swing his weapon properly, or the armor not working as intended.

The point of half-plate is that it sacrifices protection value for maneuverability, so they wouldn't make the plates much thicker.

I was messing around, and decided to make a Paladin of Shelyn based off of a miniature I found on the internet.

Well, in the picture (Won't/can't link because of NSFW content on the site) the miniature is what I would describe as half-plate in Pathfinder terms.

Much to my chagrin.

Half-plate: 600 gp +8 +0 –7 40% 50 lbs.

For what reason does HALF a suit of plate armor weigh as much as a full suit of plate? Why is it actually LESS wieldly to wear than a full suit?

'But Lithdoran' you might cry 'It is patched with chainmail!'

And? if we divide full-plate's weight by 2, we get 25, if we divide a chainmail's weight by 2, we get 20. Adding them together, we get 45. Still 5 lbs LESS than a full plate suit.

Not to mention the fact that chain is fairly fluid.

What I propose:

Half-plate: Same cost +6 +2 -6 Spell Failure 30%, 40lbs

This leaves us with +8 as our effective armor bonus, and makes Half-Plate WORTH using.(Maybe we could up the cost to like 750gp)

Thoughts?