Light_Mnemonic's page

To be fair, Daze isn’t nearly as bad as people pretend it is.

60ft is big, and a good crit fail effect is a nice cherry on top. It’s really just the annoyance of the mental trait that sets it back.

For all of us poor pdf-less losers: any restrictions on tradition?

So why not use MM than? Always hit, better damage type, you could get status bonusses to damage for each target.

Magic Missile scales 7 dam every two spell levels.

Phantom Pain scales 5 dam every spell level.

For the spell section as an improvement meant to add spells which are also very good always on their level. Command/Bless are always good, independent of your level. Now you only mention three possible signature spells at first level. You can only have one.

Yeah, I highly recommend people learn Summon Fey and Phantom Pain at Spell Lv2-4 so you can also Signature them. They're both really excellent spells. I should throw a chart together showing how well Phantom Pain scales; 2d4 per level that is never halved is goooood.

Light_Mnemonic wrote:

Hello wonderful Paizo forum users! I did a Support Bard Guide to go along with my earlier Cleric guide.

I've been thinking about maybe doing a Rogue and Fighter guide as well, and then an encompassing 'Basic Party Guide' using Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Bard to highlight PF2's various party dynamics.

I finished this guide a little quicker, and didn't give it the editing polish that I did for Cleric.

If anybody sees anything that doesn't look correct, or wants to argue a point, please mention it here!

Finally had some time to go over it in detail. I still like the way you present the information, clear, easy overview.

As to the content: It wouldn't be my advice, but that is opinion of course.

Some comments:
- I can't see ever making an attack with a bard. Too many other actions that can be taken, so advising shortbow and crit effects as important strengths for a bard (except warrior maybe) sounds strange.
- Signature spells a weakness? I consider that one of the strengths of spontaneous casters. Lack of spells is an issue. Choices choices.
- Familiar as goal. Useful maybe if it fits your view and you have the option through an ancestry, but I'd not use a feat on it.
- Depending on your build, I would rate Diplomacy, Deception and Intimidation A/B. Never medicine. Soothe for healing if needed, otherwise any other action. Diplomacy route has a lot of advantages, Bon Mot, One for all, its strongest of the three I think for a bard.
- Notable class feats: Ultimate Polymath. All spells are signature. very strong with the correct spell list. Choose the best spells per level and all are signature.
- Recommended archetype is the part with which I have the most issues. I wouldn't add any of them, ever, to a bard. Swashbuckler, Rogue, Marshal, Dandy, Linguist, Celebrity, those can add much in my opinion.
- Spells: A whole lot missing from what I would...

- Ha, Shortbow ended up being a huge controversy over on Reddit. Not what I was expecting. But yeah, it’s really good. Shortbow is an excellent martial weapon that doesn’t get in the way of Spellcasting and Bard never falls more than -3 attack bonus behind martials. Your first strike is a great default third action that has approximately the same value as a martials second strike. You should try it, it’s good.

- I was highlighting the headache of unlearning and relearning spells at a higher level that Signature spells forces you to do. I’ve had multiple players get frustrated with the optimization puzzle, and it’s a decently popular homebrew to just allow you to pick any or your spells of any level when selecting new Signatures. Not a mechanical power issue, more a comment on ‘quality of life’ user experience.

- Familiars are good yo. Ignoring accompanist, you’ve got a slew of adaptable action economy boosts. Think of it as the level 10 Quickened Casting feat with other bonuses stapled on.

- Agreed that Diplomacy is the top Bard social skill and quite good. I don’t rank Deception and Intimidation highly though. For Intimidation you should really already have Dirge. For Deception I think the only investment you need is trained. Medicine is almost strictly necessary for any non-Stamina variant game, only really requires Expert skill advancement, and gives you a great third-action in Battle Medicine. Super good skill and feats with low skill increase costs.

- The listed archetypes all cover your major weaknesses, giving you extra action economy, cheap skill increases, or reactions. They’re great subtle archetypes that I would recommend taking a second glance at. Also, you can’t take Marshal since you don’t have Martial Weapon Proficiency. Otherwise it’d be on my list.

- If you look at the right hand column, I’m already highlighting signature vs non-signature spells. Circle of Protection definitely is powerful, but I avoided recommending any non-ancestry uncommon or rare content. Don’t want to normalize its access. The other spells you mentioned are good, but depend on campaign or party context a bit too much for my taste. I wanted to hit the general high notes that I would leave a player with 80-90% of what they need and let them figure the rest out.

I've always loved this resource, although it appears the link is now dead. Sad times.

Thats . I've got a new Bard I'm going to point this to. Its nice to just list the best points like you hvae. I disagree about some of yout spell choices. But you have justified them quite well.

I especially like your Summon Fey Guide.

Cheers

My goal with the spells was: 'If a player takes these B+ options and a mix of C options they will have 90% of what they need'.

I think adventure context and personal preference is variant enough that the rest can be left to players to fill in.

That said, any spell choices you would have different? This is definitely the part of the guide that I feel needs the most editing.

I think a Sprite is the best bard. Its got the same stats as an Elf. Doesn't need to worry about weapons, some good innate spells, and it starts on a mount which will help out its action economy by doing the moving.

Agreed. I didn't find a good place to mention it, but I avoided Rare and non-ancestry Uncommon content. I didn't want to normalize their access.

Rare content is often just more powerful content.

First of all: Thanks for making this! Guides are great and while I personally prefer more detailed and word-y guides, condensing everything importat down to just a few pages with great layout is awesome.

I did notice a few things that you might want to change/add, though.

I'd add Adapted Cantrip to the human list of good feats. It can get you Electric Arc or any other good cantrip (current or future) from any tradition. That's pretty good, even if you go Half-Elf and pick up Otherworldly Magic. Cooperative Nature is also a very good feat to boost your Aid towards auto-success a few levels earlier while also increasing your chance for a critical success.

I'd add Virtuosic Performaner to Key Feats for the Performance skill. It won't work in every situation (because sometimes you need an auditory or visual performance) but in most. Gets you the same bonus as an Accompanist familiar, but is easier to get. And even if you already have a familiar it frees up an ability slot. Athletics might also be worth listing as a good skill because you can trip enemies from behind your tank with a Whip.

For Feats, I'd add Symphony of the Muses as at least B tier at level 20. It sucks that you need Harmonize as a prerequisite, but since you probably get Eternal Composition at 18 anyway, Symphony will allow you to still utilize Lingering Performance. And having Inspire Courage/Defense AND Dirge running at the same time is ridiculously good.

I'd add Swashbuckler with One for All to the recommended Archetypes. A charisma-based Aid action for attack rolls at 30 feet range is very very good. Cirumstance bonuses to attack are hard to come by otherwise. Marshal with Inspiring Marshal stance is also awesome. You can use it instead of Inspire Courage so you can buff your allies while debuffing all enemies with Dirge. At level 20 ith Symphony of the muses you can use Dirge, Inspire Defense and the Aura to effectively push the balance of a fight 2 levels in your party's favor. The low range is a bit of a downside (as is the...

I left Adapted Cantrip off since it takes one of your original cantrip slots.

I’m not a huge fan of in-combat Aid for Bard. It’s really more of a third-action than a reaction, and Bard has plenty of third-action options already. I’d rather find feats that can make your reaction relevant on it’s own.

I wouldn’t recommend using Athletics to trip. Even with a whip you still need strength, unless you’re using assurance, and again you’re fighting with other strong third-actions.

I wouldn’t recommend Martial Archetype since it requires Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Agreed that Lv4 Circle of Protection is great, but I’ve largely ignored non-ancestry uncommon content.

Shadow Siphon I like, but it competes with Synesthesia and Slow for spell slots and you’re otherwise decently covered by Silence and Safeguard.

Agreed on Versatile Performance for the most part. I would say it does a good job of substituting Diplomacy though, since it also unlocks feats and once you get Shameless Request your requests just become an issue of time and energy.

I rank Medicine highly because:
A) You really only need Expert to get 90% of the value.
B) It offers three good skill feats with just Expert, which is great for Bard.
C) Treat Wounds is incredibly important.
D) You have a freehand for Battle Medicine.

Hm, I totally did not know that check isn’t a suitable shorthand for skill checks, and instead includes attack rolls and saving throws.

Huh….

Thanks!

Oh god, the shame!

Hello wonderful Paizo forum users! I did a Support Bard Guide to go along with my earlier Cleric guide.

I've been thinking about maybe doing a Rogue and Fighter guide as well, and then an encompassing 'Basic Party Guide' using Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Bard to highlight PF2's various party dynamics.

I finished this guide a little quicker, and didn't give it the editing polish that I did for Cleric.

If anybody sees anything that doesn't look correct, or wants to argue a point, please mention it here!

Yes. I'll get on it this week.

I'm challenged a bit by what Light_Mnemonic did whith his guide.
I like the way he has been able to condense it. My guides are a bit of a wall of text, though perhaps not as bad as some guides which read like an encyclopedia. I'm hoping that the links and indexes help.

So trying to give advice in a more concise targetted manner. I have a new group of players to GM who haven't played PF2 before. My guides are probably too detailed for them to start with.

Still thinking...

To be fair, Str/Cha Support Cleric is a super constrained problem that helped keep it nice and clean. Sorcerer has got to be the hardest class to outline and you've done a fantastic job.

That said, hopefully the guide I posted can be downloaded/mirrored locally? Totally steal or mess around with any of that s+~& that you like. I am a firm believer in egalitarian data visualization and communication.

I may or may not do a Bard Guide if this Cleric thing didn't get the design bug out of my system. I'll share my notes if I do, I imagine it'd be a much closer analogue.

Medic archetype on a Cleric is a bit too much IME : our Medic Cleric only uses her Heals to hurt undead.

Not a bad problem to have :P Medic is totally my favorite archetype. Doctor's Visitation is silly powerful.

Those tables and general layout. <3

I hope these colors are good for color blind people. Other than that, I kind of want this to be a new standard. This is fantastic.

Oh right, and the actual guide is great too, lol.

<3 <3 <3 Colors should be good for the most common types of color-blindness. Even then I've got textual support underlying all the important color information. Data Analyst by trade, ftw.

Are you counting both the proficiency lacking & the charisma being behind the main spelcasting stat of a full caster? On top of that, Cantrips (even Electrc Arc) fall behind in term of damage potetntial after a bit.

I keep forgetting the limit of single target on these feats (my cleric is actually a Domain specialist, not a font one, plus haven't reached lvl14 yet). It's very infuriating to see all these possibilities quashed...

Channel Smite is really not that bad, if you are gonna be in melee anyway, with bless on you (or with a Bard in the team), and if the other melles are used to Flank (plus possibe other debuffs with inimidate), it is quite accurate, and adding Trues Strike if needed is really not that much (but a nbit action intensive). It's not for all party composition, but it can work.

On Electric Arc, that's considering the lagging spell proficiency. Your mainstat will lag by 1 for levels 1-4, 10-14, & 20. This luckily doesn't overlap with your lagged Spell Proficiency except at lv 10 & 20. At 1-4 & 11-14 your Electric Arc lags by ~3%. At levels 5 & 6 you match a full caster.

On Channel Smite, I will merely repeat that the feat is very weak mathematically. It does produce very large numbers when used in situations where you are already advantaged. Personally, I will not recommend it.

So, here are my critics:

Class overview, you really should specify that this is not a general overview, but in the optic of your idea of Support Cleric. For example, regarding Harm & Channel Smite, TheGentlemanDM guide provide build & ideas to make it work.

Character Goals, you actually never state in that guide what kind of Support Cleric this is for, or what kind of Support it brings to the team. From context, it seems to be mostly heal and status counteract?

At will damage – you should really mention that Electric Arc will fall down compared to a full caster.

Third actions: it’s all good but you never mention what should the 2 main actions the character should be doing? As the type of support is not defined, and there is no guide on spells, that’s a bit unclear. A quick guide on most useful spells per level could be good.

Class Feats, I am very surprised there is no mention of Defensive Recovery & Fast Channel, which make for a great combo to take a team out of a tough spot. There is also no recommended Domains despite domains feat being recommended.

All in all, it seems to be a guide for a very specific type of support Cleric (not specified which though), and lacking a bit of depth.

I chose to leave the Spells uncommented, since my main goal was to provide a guide around key choices. Since Clerics don't make permanent spell choices and instead prepare from their full list, I think it's nice to leave some experimentation to the reader. That said, a huuuuge amount of the value of the Divine List is in Bless, Heal, Resist Energy, Heroism, Lv4 Silence, and Breath of Life. Scintillating Safeguard and Drop Dead are non-core standouts.

Regarding Electric Arc damage, you only expect ~6% drop off in damage for the 10 character levels where your proficiency is lagging.

Defensive Recovery and Fast Channel don't actually combo, as Defensive Recovery reads 'cast harm or heal on a single target'. If they did combo I would be a much bigger fan of both of them.

I do leave on the Domain Initiate as a 'C', but I don't want to encourage players to think Domain choice is a large part of their build.

And finally, I very strongly choose to disagree on making Channel Smite work. The feat is mathematically horrendous and jumping through hoops to support it should be relegated to niche discussions far away from anyone actually trying to play Cleric to the class's strengths.

So, I'd say that for a support cleric, warpriest isn't an auto-pick as far as doctrines go. While you are more survivable, the affliction-curing spells that Clerics can access via Channeled Succor are all counteract checks that become more reliable with a better divine spellcasting proficiency. This means that the better spellcasting DC of the cloistered cleric is a good thing to have for this build.

Counteracting conditions is actually rather easy, since:

1) Channeled Succor automatically heightens to your max spell slot.

2) Even on a 'failed' counteract you cure any afflictions that are at least one level lower.

3) These conditions are largely treated out of combat, where the cost of a unsuccessful cure is just another attempt.

More so, the effect of Warpriest's reduced Spell Proficiency only means that for half of your character levels you have a 10% lower chance of success.

That said, this is a small issue when looking at something like Dispel Magic. But then, I don't think it's nearly a significant enough consideration to compare against the defensive bonus of ~2 Class Feats, ~2 General Feats, and the otherwise unobtainable Juggernaut feature.

Going on advice in the Guide to Guides, I'm starting a separate discussion here for my shiny new Support Cleric Guide!

I would love if you all would descend upon it with a truly righteous fury to weed out anything that needs correction! Any formatting tips or appreciation would also be dearly appreciated.

If you'd like me to give any explanation or further elaboration, please feel free to ask here.

And now - this being the internet and all - let us commence the arguing!

Really nice. I like the way you collate your information and say this is what works.

Thankyou.

No problem! I kinda just had to get it out or my productivity was going to tank.

Thanks for the feedback! I absolutely love your spell guide, btw. It’s the first thing I throw at people trying to run their first caster.

What started as a Reddit comment just wouldn't stop bouncing around in my head.

So, without further ado, I present to you all this shiny new Support Cleric Guide.

Have at it! If anybody notices anything that requires correction, feel free to message me.