Refining Recipes and their Skill Requirements


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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So one of the few issues I have with the current crafting system is that low +x recipes effectively become useless as soon as a +3 recipe is acquired, at least in Tier 1. I don't have any experience with a Tier 2/3 recipes, however at Tier 1 the increase in production time is so minimal that there really isn't any reason to ever not make something at +3.

I was mildly surprised when I found out that all of the different +x recipes require the same level of training to learn. Does anyone know if there has ever been any discussion about that not being the case? For example, right now Pine Poles require Sawyer 6 to make. Pine Poles are essential to a fair few crafting recipes (spears, staves). With the recent XP changes that means that we won't be seeing any of those items made by player hands for at least a few weeks after EE starts.

What if, instead, each refining recipe was learnt at [y] skill level. From there, each +x recipe was learnt at [y+x] skill level. This would broaden the rewards for training your refining skills up, as well as, depending on how it was balanced, potentially allow faster access to critical low level components without messing up the entire market. It would also mean that we might see a better spread of 'not +3' components, since the lower +x versions would be being made by the lower skilled refiners, probably those that do refining as an off-role side task.

TLDR; What if refining recipes were learnt at different skill levels depending on their +x component.

Goblin Squad Member

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Good discussion.

There has also been another debate on +3 refined goods in another thread, but it would probably be better to do that here.

In short: apart from the above mentioned skill-requirements, the expectation is that +3 refined goods may start to flood the market at some point, because the +3 recipes are the "gateway" to the much coveted +4 and +5 "rare" refined goods. Coupled with the fact that +3 recipes only require a minor increase of the same raw ingredients, you will likely see high level crafters churn out batch after batch of +3 refined goods, to get stacks of +4 and +5 items. Thus destroying any market for low level crafters who can only dabble with +1 and +2 stuff (since +3 refined goods and their Crafted end-products will be dirt-cheap).

Example: TEO produced no less then 2000 +3 refined goods to create a single +4 weapon. And the demand for +4 and +5 items will be huge imo, and neverending (with so many slots that you cant all thread probably).

The choice between making +2 and +3 batches stops becoming meaningfull, imo.

2 possible solutions:

  • Add another raw ingredient for the +3 refined goods recipe(or seriously up the amounts for +3 recipes);

  • Or add the same chance of creating a +4 or +5 refined goods for the +1 and +2 recipes. This would keep the low level crafters in the loop, while not stealing business from the Higher level crafters, since they are still the only ones that can make +3 stuff, and more importantly, the +4 and +5 stuff (which ingredients they can now also buy from low level crafters).

I thought I would mention this, since I think it would have come up in this much needed discussion at some point anyway.

Goblin Squad Member

Since XP is gained at a constant rate for everybody, why would the low-level crafters continue to be low-level? If you're saying the system needs to be changed so that fighters who dabble in crafting can do so as effectively as characters with full crafting builds, that is as ridiculous as saying crafters who dabble in fighting should be able to handle higher level mobs as effectively as dedicated fighters.

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Both are great suggestions.

I think I noticed somewhere that a few recipes did have a higher level for + refined ingredients. But I think this was going from level 1 for the +0 to level 2 for +1, +2 and +3.

I would agree with Gol Tink that a wider spread would make a lot more sense and an extra level per + seems not unreasonable. Possibly reduce the level for the +0 in a few cases where the +3 would be just way, way too high.

I haven't looked at the new XP needs yet - so I have to be careful in regard to overall balance. But as I said - the general idea is sound and if it nerfs crafters too much then the base items needs to be lowered.

Goblin Squad Member

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I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

Grand Lodge Goblin Squad Member

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<Flask> Ulf Stonepate wrote:
Since XP is gained at a constant rate for everybody, why would the low-level crafters continue to be low-level? If you're saying the system needs to be changed so that fighters who dabble in crafting can do so as effectively as characters with full crafting builds, that is as ridiculous as saying crafters who dabble in fighting should be able to handle higher level mobs as effectively as dedicated fighters.

I would say the OP suggestion will result in the opposite. Right now you can refine a +3 at the same level (or max +1) as a +0. This actually makes fighters who dabble the better crafters (for solo players) as they have a higher chance to get hold of a recipe drop.

This would be different if it is more difficult to refine +3 items as fighters who dabble will likely not train up that high.

Goblin Squad Member

@Tyncale, if I understand feat and weapon advancement correctly, to use a Tier 1 +2 weapon the character needs the level 3 attack feat. To use a Tier 1 +3 weapon the character needs the level 5 attack feat (which also unlocks Tier 2 +3). But to use a Tier 2 +0/+1/+2, the character only needs the level 4 attack feat. Making Tier 1 +3 gear will likely be less efficient than spending those resources on Tier 2 gear.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

Magic-users are always underpowered at the start of the campaign. If the hunters pick on you during week one, fireball them in week 3, and chain-lightning their village in week 10. At least you've got more than d4 HP....

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

Wizards already have more functional abilities at level 1, not sure how this is a problem.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:
@Tyncale, if I understand feat and weapon advancement correctly, to use a Tier 1 +2 weapon the character needs the level 3 attack feat. To use a Tier 1 +3 weapon the character needs the level 5 attack feat (which also unlocks Tier 2 +3). But to use a Tier 2 +0/+1/+2, the character only needs the level 4 attack feat. Making Tier 1 +3 gear will likely be less efficient than spending those resources on Tier 2 gear.

I think each of the Tiers will have their own Demand and Supply economy, and if you can get your hands on a Tier 2 +2 weapon that is better then a tier 1 +5 weapon then people will do that. But tier 2 weapons may be much more costly because they use Tier 2 ingredients, or there is a temporary scarcity of them.

IN any case, you will still get the lopsided situation in each individual Tier, when it comes to the +3 Refined goods. Unless the benefit of owning a +4 or +5 weapon/armor of any tier is small in any situation, you will see a huge demand for those +4 and +5 refined intermediates, and thus an abundance of +3 refined intermediates and their crafted endproducts(in any of the 3 tiers).

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Xeen wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

Wizards already have more functional abilities at level 1, not sure how this is a problem.

The cantrips need either a wand or a staff to be used. Staff cantrips appear to be the more powerful ones, and have greater range, hence the reason I suspect Nihimon use Hunter's Longbow as an example. Note that all the weapons are +2. Nihimon is pointing out that the time it takes to be able to make a weapon of equal power is far longer for us Wizards, thus putting us at a disadvantage.

If the current trend holds into EE, Divine spells drop at a greater rate, though still rare, than do Arcane spells. So when the real war of the towers rolls around, based on current ETA, Wizards will be behind all other roles in terms of availability of spells and arcane weaponry of equal power to all the rest.

I share his concern, as my main is a Wizard (Alt is a crafter, who will not be able to make Arcane weapons @ +2 for at least 10 days (Wand) or 15 days (Staff) ) So, as you can see, this effects both my main and Destiny's Twin.

Goblin Squad Member

What I am saying is that I disagree that its a problem. I have played both an archer and a wizard.

My wizard is much more effective with basic equipment than my rogue is with +1 equipment. When my rogue picked up +2 equipment it started to even out.

So I do not see this as a problem.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Rogues being underpowered/harder to learn is a different problem.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Rogues being underpowered/harder to learn is a different problem.

I dont know what learning problems you have had, and your right that is a different problem.

As for underpowered, they are not, they are just different.

Goblin Squad Member

Tyncale wrote:

I think each of the Tiers will have their own Demand and Supply economy, and if you can get your hands on a Tier 2 +2 weapon that is better then a tier 1 +5 weapon then people will do that. But tier 2 weapons may be much more costly because they use Tier 2 ingredients, or there is a temporary scarcity of them.

IN any case, you will still get the lopsided situation in each individual Tier, when it comes to the +3 Refined goods. Unless the benefit of owning a +4 or +5 weapon/armor of any tier is small in any situation, you will see a huge demand for those +4 and +5 refined intermediates, and thus an abundance of +3 refined intermediates and their crafted endproducts(in any of the 3 tiers).

Given a large amount of time, I think that the most serious refiners will have +3 recipes in their mix. Refined +3 goods will be 'acceptable', +2 goods will be 'maybe', +1 will be 'meh' and +0 will be 'junk'.

I don't think that means that the need for +1 and +2 refined goods ever goes away. There will always be some number of low level characters who will die often enough. Crafters will be competing on cost efficiencies to some degree, and crafters who are willing to make that Tier 1 +1 or +2 gear will sell it if it's priced cheaper than Tier 1 +3. Settlements that insist on people not using/losing top-notch gear on second-notch characters will have more total gear at the end of the month.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm very curious to see what Enchanting does to the demand for Tier 1 +4/+5 Items.

I also think most Crafters will constantly be on the lookout for discounted +1 Components if they think they can mix them into their production chain and still get +2 or +3 finished products.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I'm very curious to see what Enchanting does to the demand for Tier 1 +4/+5 Items.

I also think most Crafters will constantly be on the lookout for discounted +1 Components if they think they can mix them into their production chain and still get +2 or +3 finished products.

I was under the impression that the only +4 and +5 crafted items that were actually useful (rather than working the same as a +3) were things like spellbooks and divine symbols because there are no keywords for those higher levels on armor or weapons?

EXAMPLE: A T1 charged staff gets keywords Arcane/Volatile/Expansive/Explosive matching cantrips trained to level 1/2/3/5 respectively. Seems taking it above +3 does not help in any useful way ?

Or did I get that wrong ?

Even with implements like holy symbols it eventually serves no purpose.

EXAMPLE: I currently make and use with my semi-retired main the Acolyte Holy Symbol +3 which with 17 spell levels lets me slot 5 level 3 spells and a level 2. Making a +4 would allow 6 level 3 spells. Making a +5 would seem pointless and useless.

Goblin Squad Member

My understanding is that crafting a +4 or a +5 Armor or Weapon will give the Crafter the opportunity to designate an additional Keyword or two to put on the Item.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
My understanding is that crafting a +4 or a +5 Armor or Weapon will give the Crafter the opportunity to designate an additional Keyword or two to put on the Item.

which is currently not implemented

But yeah, longterm at some later date +4 and +5 will make sense to create.

Goblin Squad Member

After extensive research with my fellow TEO members into the crafting and refining side of the game, I am just going to have to disagree with the OP.

There is a HUGE reason to make +0, +1, and +2 refined components...that little bar in the crafting window at the top, yea, it allows you to use less resources to produce higher quality goods.

Lets say I wanted to make a +3 Longsword, and I have +10 Racial Bonus, +70 skill level, and a really good facility, then the x3 +3 Ingots, and x1 +3 Strip aren't required to make that +3 Longsword, I could probably make it substituting x2 +3 ingots for x2 +2 ingots.

Essentially what I am saying it is more efficient on your resources to use combinations of low end components when crafting. Eventually you begin to save noticeable amounts of resources by playing it smart. Also, note, TEO only refined that much material just to see how long it would take to make a +4 item, which we found out that the % for dropping +4/+5 components was broken (it is suppose to actually be 2-3x faster). We will not have the resources to throw at a project like that in EE, because of the demands of armor from our settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
. Also, note, TEO only refined that much material just to see how long it would take to make a +4 item, which we found out that the % for dropping +4/+5 components was broken (it is suppose to actually be 2-3x faster). We will not have the resources to throw at a project like that in EE, because of the demands of armor from our settlement.

I brought that up in game with one of the GW people and they claimed the maximum drop rate was assuming a max level crafter and the rate was correct. It's interesting to hear it actually was too low.

On a related note, we were not meant to get crafting achieves for randomly upgraded refines, that is a bug.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

From the point of view of someone that has entered the alpha only the last 2 weeks:

1) We are speaking of a single character training all the needed skills or of several characters making a concentrated effort, with each one training a different set of crafting skills?
2) that/those characters will be viable in any other role or they will be simply a crafting machine?

To me having empty auction houses and discovering that even crafting a replacement +0 apprentice wand will require a long training time was frustrating.
Being forced to farm starting goblins to get starting gear that allow me to kill weak enemies isn't much satisfying. Knowing that even if I increase my skill I will get almost nothing unless I get matching gear leave me spinning in place.

It is more a AH failure than anything, but until it is ameliorated I see a large number of people trying PFO, say "meh" and move on.

In EVE you felt that you were growing in those first weeks, here I feel that after acquiring a few basic skills I am at an impasse until someone craft and put in AH the gear I need. Or, as an alternative I have to make a dedicated crafting character, hope to buy the recipes I need as I can't fight anything large than a starting goblin, and then make a more all around character for playing.

Goblin Squad Member

My argument is built around the idea that +4 and +5 crafted items are actually the best item you can have in a certain slot. If this is not true then I am not sure why the +4 and +5 system is in the game anyway.

Furthermore, my argument is built around the fact that the difference in *quantities of raw resources needed* between +1, +2 and +3 items is just not that large. I totally agree with the idea that being efficient with your raw resources will be a major thing in PFO. The whole Economy is sortoff based on them; they are the fundamental buildingblocks of the Economy. And I have indeed been using Weak Varnish +0 when I could, while making that +2 bow.

But because you only need a little more raw resources to make a batch of +3, then you do for a Batch of +2, I see dedicated crafters (those that make a living of having access to resources all the time) rather make the +3 batch then the +2 batch, to try to get a +4 or +5 item.

Now you get the situation where redundant +3 refined goods and end-products are hitting the market for a price that may be even *below* the combined average price of the raw resources that it is made from. This will differ off course, depending on availability of resources in the Settlement/region.

Once this happens, then you would be stealing from yourself if you are going to make +1 and +2 batches of refined goods: because you will be selling the endproducts for less then they cost you to make, with all the dirt cheap +3 items on the AH. Mind you, it *still* costs 5,5,5 of raw resources to make Weak Varnish +0, that nobody wants(to use). Or 6,6,6 for a batch of +1. Better make that +3 batch(if you can!) for 8,8,8 and have a chance on feeding into the high end game of +4 and +5. Does anyone have the illusion that these +4 and +5 items will NOT become the hallmark of a veteran player, the measurestick of cool *lewt*? In that aspect, this game will be no different then Themepark #31.

Seeing how rare +4 and +5 refined outcomes are, getting a single +4 or +5 "lucky draw" may even make up for the entire cost of the raw ingredients that you used. Easy to see where most raw resources will be drained into then. The +3 refined goods will become refuse, a byproduct that will flood the market.

In the end, it is cheaper to buy a +3 refined goods from the AH, then create a +1 or +2 refined goods yourself from raw resources.

The picture would be different if someone who has his Swordskills at level 2, could only use a Long Sword +1. But that is not the case: he can just as well use that Longsword +3 that is on the AH for 24 copper (even though the resources to make that sword may have cost the crafter several silver worth of raw resources). Though I expect to rather see the +3 refined goods on the AH for dirt cheap, then the crafted endproducts, since high level crafters may reserve their queues for +4 and +5 items.

Now if +1 and +2 batches of refined goods had the same chance of producing a +4 or +5, then I could see low level crafters get into the loop again, as well as their products(maybe).

Or make +3 refined goods use up substantially more raw resources then a +2 batch. Or add an extra ingredient to the +3 recipes.

I do think that the localization of the Economy will somewhat cushion this though. I am sure there will be settlements where you can still move your +1 and +2 goods. Also, my scenario probably will not happen for months if not years to come. I also think it is not that hard to counter or balance, as per the examples above. So it is nothing to really panick about, or that it needs profound game-changes. Stuff will be tweaked. :)

Goblin Squad Member

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I think at some point, Tier 2 +3 will be the default for established heroes. Those +4 or +5 items will also be made, for bragging rights and as vanity items.

At the same time, I think Encumbrance limitations will complicate our decisions, as will hex resource limits. The crafting teams might get stingy with their crafting. 60% more resources for making +3 wire doesn't sound like much when a character can move 1000 ore across the map. Things may change when a player can barely move 100 ore, and that is at risk of being looted with 25% lost.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

I think at some point, Tier 2 +3 will be the default for established heroes. Those +4 or +5 items will also be made, for bragging rights and as vanity items.

At the same time, I think Encumbrance limitations will complicate our decisions, as will hex resource limits. The crafting teams might get stingy with their crafting. 60% more resources for making +3 wire doesn't sound like much when a character can move 1000 ore across the map. Things may change when a player can barely move 100 ore, and that is at risk of being looted with 25% lost.

Good points.

I am of a different opinion concering your first point: if +4 and +5 items have a benefit that +3 items do not have they will be much more then bragging rights and certainly more then Vanity items. They will be the items most people are shooting for. Even in a game where cool loot is not the primary focus.
If the +4 and +5 items have the sort of benefit that is circumstantial or are more of a utility(who knows, maybe a +10 Armorcraft to some +5 Gloves), rather then a + to pure power or defense, then I can see most people wearing +3 stuff indeed. Certainly in slots they can not thread.

I agree with you on the second point; the local economies, Wars(lots of death and depletion of resources), and other regional unrest will stir things up. New frontiertowns will not have a thriving "+3 to +5" economy going, and so forth. This is the most interesting feature of PFO in my eyes and I hope that the world will be such a varied place that my scenario may only exist local at times, and even temporary.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

There's no randomness in crafting, so nobody would buy the refined materials to make a +3 sword if the price of the sword was less than the cost.

The expected value for refining is likewise positive; if demand for +3 refined items is so low compared with the supply that is incidental to +4 and+5 refined materials that they are cheaper than the raw materials that create them, but demand for +4 and +5 goods is so high that the small fraction of those covers the total cost of raw materials, that says a lot about the market for +3 weapons: almost nobody wants them even at extremely low cost.

Goblin Squad Member

I do not understand your first statement. It is the *refined* +3 materials that will become dirt cheap, and so any end product of that will be too. The cost for the raw resources already has been paid by the high level crafter who is churning out +3 batches to get those +4 and +5 refined goods. Also keep in mind that High Level crafters have an advantage here anyway: high skill means shorter queues, maybe more queues, possibly a higher chance on a +4 and +5 goods and they will undoubtedly be working with High level facilities.

Because they may be reserving their queues for +4 and +5 items(that undoubtedly will take a long time to create), this may create a chance for lower level crafters to buy the cheap +3 refined goods and make them into crafted items(also to make +1 and +2 items with them if they can not do +3 recipes). This still kills the market for +1 and +2 refined goods(since +3 refined goods are dirt cheap, being paid for by the high level crafters who earn their money with +4 and +5), but at least they are somewhat in the loop.

For the second part of your post: I think demand will be high for +4 and +5 refined goods and their crafted end products, but I do not think their market will ever be saturated because it will take so many +3 batches for every +4 or +5 item.

So I think +3 items will be used a lot; it's just that the supply of the refined +3 goods will be even higher then the demand of +3 crafted items can take out of the Economy. So there's a market for +3 items, its just that they will be cheap.

So I do not understand why you would say nobody wants them.

GW always said that they want a crafting system where low end ingredients will always be needed and I think that is the way to go. However in the case of +3 refined goods, this creates a bit of a problem. Making these is needed as a gateway to the much coveted +4 and +5 items, and they are also needed for the regular +3 items. And *all* items use the same raw resources in their respective Tier.

Now if +4 and +5 items are "meh" then all this does not fly. I hope they are not "meh" though. Then again, people will Raid 4x a week for 6 months just to get a tiny boost in their HP, so I am thinking the market for +4 and +5 will be there.

Btw, andother solution would be to significantly increase the chance of getting a +4 or +5 item on making a batch of +3 refined goods. TEO created 2k +3 items to create one +4 weapon: I think this was bugged, so that should have been 1/3rd of that I think. That is still 650 +3 items to get enough +4 to make a weapon. Not sure how many batches that is.

Now if you could make a +4 weapon for every 6 or 7 +3 weapons, then things would not have to become so crazy.

Goblin Squad Member

I can't claim I have grokked this getting random +4 from heaps of +3, to me it sounds like the problem is just that.

Why not try something different, like +4 weapons only appearing as drops from bosses or a chance to increase a +3 weapon into a +4 if it is killing a boss...

Goblin Squad Member

Schedim wrote:

I can't claim I have grokked this getting random +4 from heaps of +3, to me it sounds like the problem is just that.

Why not try something different, like +4 weapons only appearing as drops from bosses or a chance to increase a +3 weapon into a +4 if it is killing a boss...

It's antithetical to the game's design. Crafters are being promoted as being important to the economy. If good gear drops from high level critters, then adventurers will put all experience into getting good enough to fight them, and nothing into harvesting skills. The designer intent is that high quality gear can not exist unless a player manufactures it in game.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Any system of loot drops is off the table.

What I was saying is that the refiner will buy raw materials for some coin cost, refine them at some time cost, and sell the refined output for some price; I doubt that the price of +3 output will ever be less than the input cost. For that to happen, the production of +3 materials incidental to the production of higher-level refined items would have to be greater than the demand curve for +3 refined materials at cost.

Right now I don't know of ANY benefit for having +4 or better equipment over +3 (except implements have a small benefit). I don't think the market price for +5 equipment will be on a different order of magnitude than +3; not because it won't be a lot rarer, but because there won't be a huge benefit to the users, and the users set the demand curve.

Goblin Squad Member

I strongly suspect +4 and +5 Items will be custom-order only, unless certain Enchanted Keywords become "must-haves", at which point I'd hope GW would shake things up a bit.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, yes, I see, I stand corrected!

Goblin Squad Member

Diego Rossi wrote:
Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

  • Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  • Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  • Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

From the point of view of someone that has entered the alpha only the last 2 weeks:

1) We are speaking of a single character training all the needed skills or of several characters making a concentrated effort, with each one training a different set of crafting skills?
2) that/those characters will be viable in any other role or they will be simply a crafting machine?

To me having empty auction houses and discovering that even crafting a replacement +0 apprentice wand will require a long training time was frustrating.
Being forced to farm starting goblins to get starting gear that allow me to kill weak enemies isn't much satisfying. Knowing that even if I increase my skill I will get almost nothing unless I get matching gear leave me spinning in place.

It is more a AH failure than anything, but until it is ameliorated I see a large number of people trying PFO, say "meh" and move on.

In EVE you felt that you were growing in those first weeks, here I feel that after acquiring a few basic skills I am at an impasse until someone craft and put in AH the gear I need. Or, as an alternative I have to make a dedicated crafting character, hope to buy the recipes I need as I can't fight anything large than a starting goblin, and then make a more all around character for playing.

1) 17 days is the time it takes to train the ability to make pine poles with a + (sawyer 6). So not a single character.

I'll point out that they get shafted even harder for getting T2+0 staffs, which require ~130 days, where most other T2 weapons are out within 60 days.
2.) If you want to maximize crafting, the first 74 days are going to be spent exclusively on one skill to level 10. After that you need to start branching off to raise attributes to increase your main crafting skill.

Only the first players in the game will have to farm goblins, after that if you are part of a settlement like Phaeros, or Brighthaven, there are going to be people to give you gear. Also, you aren't meant to be soloing, group-play is a key part of PFO.

Until the Expert and Commoner professions get fleshed out, the most efficient crafters are likely to be alts. There is always the option to set yourself back a few days and pick up some basic adventuring skills. I'm guessing the 100% dedicated crafting characters are going to be people's alts.

If you're needing gear now, hit me up in teamspeak, I'm providing the gear for most of Phaeros right now.

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the info, so essentially we will be unable to make even apprentice level gear for the first 2-3 weeks and doing that will require hyper specialized characters that are developed in unison.

Valkenr wrote:
If you're needing gear now, hit me up in teamspeak, I'm providing the gear for most of Phaeros right now.

The problem is that is sound horribly as begging.

I did one exchange, giving some gathered stuff back, but the trading interface has a big problem as you can't give a specific quantity, you have to add 1 single unit at a time and a click too fast mean that you have given all of your stuff of a kind. AFAIK there aren't auction houses in the settlements, and even the auction houses in Thornkeep and in the NPC don't have anything in them (I checked the AH in Thornkeep several times this week end, there wasn't anything there).

Without any idea of what is worth what and being reduced to a bartering system the first weeks will be fairly bad.

Until there is a strong community of people from the central Europe time area playing will be problematic.


I could be mistaken Metric, but I thought it was the case that materials can randomly be upgraded to one of the two higher levels - so +1s can be 2/3, +2s can be 3/4, and +3s can be 4/5, it's just that +3s are the only way to have a chance at +5s.

@Diego that's true....there will certainly be some issues with that. TEO had largely circumvented those by having people who want gear donate all the materials/recipes they can't use and they will get gear back in exchange. It has some issues, but has proven to be highly efficient and effective in practice (in alpha at least). Part of the reason why it works is the lack of competition from other groups/AHs. If giving their stuff to us is the most reliable method to get gear back, they'll continue to do so.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I've seen the only recipes that can benefit from the random boost are the +3 ones.

Guess I'll do some more digging to see if I indeed am tasting my own shoe.

Edit: Yup, a size 11 Sketcher in fact.

Goblin Squad Member

KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I've seen the only recipes that can benefit from the random boost are the +3 ones.

Guess I'll do some more digging to see if I indeed am tasting my own shoe.

Arrhh ... that be not right you Keepers people need to be a doin' more craftin' .

I have ha' many a +1 become magically a +3 or +2 and a glorius thing it be indeed. Tho to be sure if you be wantin' a +5 you a be needin' to be a' startin' with the +3 indeed yessy.

Goblin Squad Member

KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Perhaps I am mistaken, but from what I've seen the only recipes that can benefit from the random boost are the +3 ones.

Guess I'll do some more digging to see if I indeed am tasting my own shoe.

Edit: Yup, a size 11 Sketcher in fact.

Refined components have a small chance to get an extra +1 and an even smaller chance to get an extra +2. This chance is improved by facility quality and skill. Theres a dev post on it somewhere.

Valkenr uses a scroll of Summon Nihimon.

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