Goblin Squad Member
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If I may I'd like to add to my impression and provide my thoughts for the community's evaluation and conversation. This is from a conversation Jazz began with me and I'd like to read the community's take on my thinking if you have any thoughts.
As usual I will be found long-winded.
I understand the concept of party-based adventure like is present in tabletop. I understand how desirable party-based adventure should be. Groups are a legacy from the storytelling tradition of one storyteller and many listener-participants. Storytelling is important to me, but so far there is no storytelling to PFO. There is an environment that compels group play and discourages individualism. The idea that it will be the players who make the story is commendable, but there also isn't a shared plotline for the players' story to grow around.
I don't quite follow on this eagerness to finally do everything with a group, and to never play independently from a group.
What we have in PFO is a mono-dimensional competitive environment, not a story. Arguably the settlements will eventually forge their stories in terms of one another, but there is no history present to uncover, interact with, or build upon. There aren't mysteries to unearth. There is no game to the individual game. There is only, merely, potential for competition. There isn't any inherent content to fight for, there is only player-generated content to fight against. The why of it all is lacking.
Meaningfulness is missing. Meaningfulness is born of the interaction of the individual with history and with culture. It is insufficient to pretend that meaning comes only from community. Communities are made of individuals, and there is no game for the individual in this design.
The substance of a group comes from the individual members in it. What is lacking is in-game substance for the individual identity. I think the players will end up needing a way to establish individual identities. We have time-based progression and we have group-oriented content. The game assumes the content of the individuals who comprise those groups with be native to the player playing each character in those groups. Yet there is more to the individual that gives meaning than membership, there is what a character does. The character can craft a backstory and that is all well and good, but it is insubstantial.
To what will my character aspire? Is it merely to be a cog in someone else' machine? Should the only game in PFO be the property of the 1%, the community leaders? The group leaders? The generals? If I wish to go a-wandering out in the wild I cannot wander myself, but only follow someone else? Will the would-be leaders be followed? On what authority will they lead, or does environmental compulsion take the place of merit and respect? Will players choose to cooperate, or will they be enslaved to the group by the lash and shackles of necessity?
I would choose to work cooperatively, not be compelled to coordinate out of necessity.
Depending on how the design intends to incorporate the Factions, faction play might prove crucial to solve for my objection and should have been part of the MVP. That, and tuning some of the PvE content for the individual, some for the 2-man, and leave core escalations for groups. Then let the escalations be farther apart. The River Kingdoms as it stands have a serious overpopulation problem among PVE escalations that escalate far too quickly. There is no room to play, there is only room to engage in repetitive routine.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whether you intended it or not, this is an indictment of the "Vision" and I completely agree.
There are too many constraints on how the sand can be used, in this supposed sand box.
Don't be misled by assumptions of fanboyism, Bluddwolf. Not everyone is so simple as to fit into convenient categories. In fact few individuals fit into such stereotypes.
My observation isn't an indictment of 'The Vision', it is an observation on the current iteration of what is to be.
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Nice thread OP, very refreshing to get input from others than the usual 20 or so posters who dominate most threads.
I understood early that EE would not be a viable product to me personally until around three months in. Now it looks like I'll have to wait until War of Towers is replaced. I'm ok with that, hopefully there will be a decent population by that time.
My main concern is the major bugs that go along with most new features they add. I was under the impression that EE would be relatively bug free, but low on features from beginning. It seems unlikely that they will be able to add features without also adding gamebreaking bugs regularly from what I've seen so far. I hope I'm wrong, constantly having gamebreaking bugs will not be acceptable for me during EE.
I would like them to release EE as soon as they fix the teleport/desynch bug, improve Auction House and targeting system. Even though it's far from being a game I will enjoy at that stage, I think quite a few players are ready to start up and build the foundation of the world.
The recent change in reputation recovery is very promising imo. Until we have feuds and other PvP features it would be impossible to pose any threat and danger outside tower hexes with the old rep gain.
I hope enough players will endure the early months of EE so GW can keep improving the game as planned. I'm still optimistic for the future of this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of this has been said already but here goes:
The state of the game.
The Pathfinder audience market sector is being marginalized. The divergence from the core aspects of the Pathfinder tabletop game is disappointing. I get it, the TT game is not something that can be directly converted to an MMO, and there are issues because of the OGL. And I get that there is a huge population of MMO players out there who are being marketed to who have no idea how the TT game works (and don’t care), or even that it exists. But I think the fact that the Pathfinder name is being used clearly indicates there is a strong market of TT gamers that are also a marketing target. Its also clear that PFO won’t be anything like the RPG, and that GW has no plans to “tweak” PFO in a way that would give it more of the “feel” of the RPG. So, I think that the TT market has been marginalized, and especially in the early going of the game I think this is going to hurt it.
The MMO audience market has been marginalized. The PvP folks used to EVE or other games where PvP is a key factor aren’t seeing how their play style can be realized to its full extent. What they are seeing are lots of roadblocks to their play style. Additionally, these folks are looking at other game options out there and seeing more potential; maybe it’s better graphics, maybe it’s better systems, whatever, but it seems to be happening. There are lots of reasons, and honestly I believe in the long run these things will get hashed out and this audience will be able to have a fulfilling experience, but early on I think this is a problem for getting this market audience engaged.
The direction of the game.
I think the direction is positive. Progress is being made. Bugs are getting fixed. There is a still a long way to go, but the direction is a positive one.
What you feel are positives and negatives of the game.
Negative - For the PvE crowd, dumb mobs that stand around in groups all over the place waiting to be attacked is silly. There needs to be more to it than running from group of monsters to group of monsters. Gi ve me something with some meat on it. “Hey, there is an ogre escalation in Hex A. if you go there, you’re going to be hunted down by groups of ogres roving the hex. If you defeat a small scout group, a larger more powerful group is going to come after you. If you find the boss, all the troops he can contact in a reasonable area are going to converge on you.” Something.
Positive – The engagement of the GW team with the community is very positive.
Suggestions for the game.
1. For PFO, tab targeting is lame. Really lame. In EVE, it makes sense. You have systems and technology to “lock” onto targets in a technology-based game. In my opinion, PFO should be manual targeting. You actually have to aim your arrow. You actually have to aim your Greatsword blow. You get bonuses as you progress in weapon proficiency, or through magical effects, which could be realized by an increase in the forgiveness of locating your attack. At lower proficiencies, you have a targeting “crosshair” that is small; and/or your opponents “hit” target is small. If you have higher proficiencies, your targeting crosshair is large and/or your opponent’s crosshair is large. Better proficiency, larger crosshair, easier to hit. Higher armor class, smaller target crosshair, harder to hit. But if not that, something other than tab targeting.
2. The minimap that shows all the enemies, resource nodes, and other features within a huge radius of the character is lame. It’s like your character has RADAR. NOTHING should show up on that minimap unless you can detect it through your perception skills or magic. So, if your perception is lousy you can see and hear and sense things and creatures close to you. If your perception is much better you can see and hear and sense things and creatures farther away from you. No spooky detection at a distance, please. You actually have to hunt stuff to be able to find it, not just run around with your scanners showing you everything within 1,000 yards of you, even if it’s on the other side of that mountain where you’d have no chance of knowing it was there.
3. Player-created content (e.g., dungeons). I honestly think having players able to build content would be fantastic. There is an Ideascale entry for this. I understand the concerns about creating content for your buddies, exploiting looting of player created content, etc. but I think there are ways to control that. Player created content could be randomly spawned like any other content. Content designers could be recognized for excellence by the community and/or GW (e.g., designer x’s dungeons z got xx votes as excellent, etc.). I think it could add a lot for folks who would like to be more creative and have an impact on the game.
4. Terraforming. We need to be able to do stuff to and modify our environment. Dig trenches, cut down trees, level the ground, build embankments, dig tunnels, etc., etc. Static landscape is boring. Some of these effects should be reversible over time, for instance, if you clear cut a forest it should grow back in a certain amount of time if it is not actively pruned down (ah, and related to the better, more meaningful PvE content above, the dryads and druids may come knocking in that clear cut hex, spawning their own escalations); tunnels should collapse if they are not maintained; etc.
Time lines for what you feel should be added.
1. Better in-game guides needs to happen sooner. For example, a skills training “roadmap.” EVE has this with its “certificates”. In PFO, you should be able to pick a role level or feature you want to achieve and a list of skills you need to train to reach that goal is laid out for you.
2. Better, more engaging PvE content should be in sooner rather than later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, seriously this time.
The state of the game: I'm fine with it to be honest. Maybe I was just more ready mentally for what GW meant when they said MvP so many months ago but I said and posted several times that many of us would be laughing at it. The game seems much more boring than it actually is because in alpha we are playing poker without the chips, baseball without keeping score. Manufacturing gets faster, the adventurers get geared in a hurry and gathering will get dangerous once we are playing for reelz. The systems are in for a small group of players to have some fun the first few months.
Direction of the game: I do agree that the builders and explorers need to be the focus over the next 6 months. The average player will get frustrated to walk in and find they can't even get a sword. The PvP'ers are not going to like this game for the first 6 months no matter what. Thanks to Dogan for pointing me in that direction as I will now be pulling more for gushers and advancements in the escalation system (which I still think has HUGE potential).
Positives and Negatives: Easy to put in the same paragraph because it is the same double edged sword: crowdforging. I understand that some people don't like to see how the sausage gets made and even less are willing to pay to go on a tour of the sausage factory. I find it fascinating and will gladly give up my 2 years ago pre paid time to watch the next 4 months of development. Some people are decrying this as the death of the gaming industry and letting the inmates run the asylum. To me, it's a natural evolution that goes in step with other "openness trends" from reality TV to open kitchens to wikileaks. Some people want to see the man behind the curtain and will pay for that privilege. Double so if they get to vote someone off the island...
Alpha to EE: I was pretty open about not thinking the game was ready 2 months ago. I'm ready to roll with the road map laid out in the last blog.
Suggestions: We have entire forums for the many suggestions. that's the cool thing about it.
Timelines I'm cool with the roadmap. I think character models go a LOOOOOONG way towards getting casual players in, so the faster you can get dreadlocks and gnomes in the better. My pet systems I want in ASAP are gushers and falling damage. Those make exploration more interesting and exploration is the match that lights the fires IMO.
Pressing matters Better group functions. The game is way too dependent on player cooperation to be forced to slog through a clumsy and non functional settlement/party UI. Don't do that to us GW.
What is MvP? I think GW is very close to the sweet spot for MVP. The people who won't dive in are the ones who won't be satisfied with the game for a good 6 months anyways. Those that are "close" will. There aren't many people asking for "1 more month" so that tells you we are arriving at the cutoff point. There won't be a lot of us the first 4 months or so. It really is the softest of soft openings and I doubt more than 3,000 will show up for any significant time and half of those will be baking characters. That was the plan.
Random comment I see a lot of comments on the game having no soul and all I can say Roleplay. There is a lot of open ended topics to roleplay around from politics to the marks of Pharasma and I earnestly suggest that settlement leaders having problems keeping their troops interested use some roleplay events. Games don't have souls, players do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The state of the game.
Right now rough but it somewhat what I expected for a small game company with limited resources. Having played a buggy Horizons I think PFO is a little further along in bug squishing for me then that game was when it went live.
The direction of the game.
The game seems to be slowly improving along the lines of two step forward one step back type of advancement.The game is fairly close to what I expected when I heard of a mvp.
What you feel are positives and negatives of the game.
The positives of the game is it potential and the great community that seems to be following it. The negatives to me are the bug, the learning curve and some of the interface like auction house I have difficulty dealing with. The escalations that over run every hex. The escalation see to be PFO version of the rifts in Rift at first a great draw but within a few months no one bothered with them except to try to avoid them.
How you feel about the process of Alpha to EE .
I backed the kick starter for really two major reasons one Joey asked for it for his Christmas birthday gift and two it had a TON of pdf physical rewards that would be very useful in our Pathfinder game and society play sessions.
Suggestions for the game.
I think they are many very good suggestion floating around these boards.
Time lines for what you feel should be added.
I not very knowledgeable along such lines so I leave it to smarter heads them mine to come up with.
Anything pressing about the game that you feel needs to be addressed. In a single word BUGS! But then I am sure you know that.
What you feel is MVP.
A game that allows me to gather refine and craft items that other folk have the need to buy. The means that pvp need to be in, player looting, need to be in, and war of towers need to be in and working. Expendables would be nice but not a make or break for mvp.
What you feel isn't MVP.
Some thing I like but can deal without if not in right away like chat text sizing, additional races, expendables like arrow and wand charges bags etc.
Basically anything pertaining to the game.
I am not interested in all those other games that will make up this games competition. Joey and I have place our money on this horse and we are willing to give it as long as it need to to get where we need to go. We are here for the duration no matter what happens.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) The game is very confusing (Maybe I am getting slow in my old age, I don't see others complaining of this?). I played a priest-or-something-like-it for 2 days and never once figured out how to cast heal correctly. I think I healed a goblin a few times and gave up.
I've lead healing for 25 man raids in WoW on 'hard' content back a few expansions ago. Why can't I figure out how to heal in this game? It is not just that, most skills and feats and whatever-else have very little information to go along with it.
I have to consult forums and guides on day one to even know what to spend the 1000 first exp on. This entire part has to be fixed for the game to work beyond ~3,000 hardcore EE players.
2) As others have said, there is no content as of now. I think a lot of us are just planning to "get a character cooking" at the start of EE on some exp and infrequent gathering and let the game develop on without us. Then if it ever gets fun, we'll jump back in and spend that exp.
p.s. I gather healing has something to do with switching to my off-set weapon selection and having a focus equipped. This mechanic and mechanics like it are just not fun. They're clunky and do not add to game play. You either have to pick one mechanic or the other (either healers are only healing and part of a party, or healing is not a viable option for simultaneously fighting solo). IMO anyway. That is why I stopped trying to heal altogether.
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Goblin Squad Member
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p.s. I gather healing has something to do with switching to my off-set weapon selection and having a focus equipped. This mechanic and mechanics like it are just not fun. They're clunky and do not add to game play. You either have to pick one mechanic or the other (either healers are only healing and part of a party, or healing is not a viable option for simultaneously fighting solo). IMO anyway. That is why I stopped trying to heal altogether.
That's only for the dodgy basic 50 point orison heals and buffs that work off your battle focus.
For real heals (350 HP plus) and proper buff spells need you the right spell to drop as loot and then spend XP to memorise it like a recipe (rather than just learning at a trainer like orisons), then equip a suitable holy symbol implement for the spell level you memorized (rather than slot a focus weapon for orisons), also have the correct cleric role slotted for the spell type and slot the spell in the upper section of the UI.
Currently not very intuitive and not a lot of instructions :D but basic mechanics are there and the full spells do drop a lot. Most of my characters slot holy symbols in one implement slot even though they are not really clerics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan said something worth remembering often in another thread earlier today: We just have to keep reiterating the idea that people are seeing this game in Year 2 of a 5 year development cycle. Most people have never seen a game in this state before. It's so far out of context that they don't know how to evaluate it on its merits.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Ryan said something worth remembering often in another thread earlier today: We just have to keep reiterating the idea that people are seeing this game in Year 2 of a 5 year development cycle. Most people have never seen a game in this state before. It's so far out of context that they don't know how to evaluate it on its merits.
Yes, he said that, which is stupid.
Most people have never seen a game in this state before, because you don't make people pay for something in this state.
Seriously, if you want to promote this game, don't quote Ryan's BS excuses.
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LOL
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan said something worth remembering often in another thread earlier today: We just have to keep reiterating the idea that people are seeing this game in Year 2 of a 5 year development cycle. Most people have never seen a game in this state before. It's so far out of context that they don't know how to evaluate it on its merits.
Actually they are evaluating PFO and its MVP on its merits, and finding them not ready for a subscription cost.
Ryan's quote above seems to reflect that "smartest guy in the room" syndrome, which is the hallmark of most people who's visions ultimately fail.
On a side note, I have yet to see a thread entitled "Looking to buy a Destiny's Twin Account, willing to pay full cost value". Sadly, it has been the opposite, and the writing on the wall that PFO has serious problems is the fact that we could not give away Alpha invites.
Ryan can tout his MVP vision all he likes, it will never trump the consumer's MPP (Minimum Purchasable Product).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hello, I've been following Pathfinder Online a good bit and feel I have a relatively logical viewpoint to offer:
The state of the game: I was definitely one of those shocked people you still find on these forums when we were getting close to that first EE release date. The game wasn't ready, and I was very vocal with my opinion on that fact. What did Goblinworks do? They listened to our critiques and agreed that it indeed was not ready to be in EE and pushed it back. Now they are working on the state of the game and improving it weekly and I'm quite impressed by the rapid enhancements.
Positives and Negatives:
Negatives:
1.) Tabletop to MMO: I feel like Goblinworks picks and chooses which components of the tabletop game should be implemented into the MMO and some of those choices aren't translating, and in my opinion, need to be changed. For example, heals being only "touch based." There are so many things differentiating the MMO Pathfinder and tabletop Pathfinder, why are they so adamant about this one? Touch based heals are more annoying than anything in a virtual world. I do hope they add some interesting support spells such as Area Effect heals/buffs and ground target abilities.
2.) Lifeless World: This will be something that changes over time, but where are you critters? Where are you personality? It feels very stagnant and very ordinary. When players come into your world, that's the last thing you want them to feel.
3.) PvE: Who's idea was it to make escalations the only PvE combat? Whatever happened to exploring the world and finding a unique "camp" of mobs that dropped good loot and you could claim as your own (until another person got wind of your camp - and then things got really interesting). I don't like knowing that every hex I travel is merely filled with "escalations." Instead, it can have escalations coupled with unique mob camps that drop special components and recipes or perhaps a hidden dungeon waiting to be explored; Dark Age of Camelot had a good example of this.
Positives:
1.) Complex gaming: From the crafting system to the roles and feats, Pathfinder is filled with refreshing complexity. It's a lot at first for a new player to handle, but once understood, it is nothing but positive for the game as a whole.
2.) Rapid improvements: Every single time I log into Alpha I notice subtle changes.
2.) Goblinworks: We are very lucky to have such an honest and upfront group building a game for us. I appreciate their involvement with the community and their hard work.
4.) Open world: I like that Golarion is completely seamless and huge.
Suggestions: Make the world feel alive. Implement other PvE features like dungeons and unique PvE camps. Revisit healing and support abilities in general.
Timelines I'm fine with how things are proceeding. Though I'd love Goblinworks to put off EE until January 2015.
Pressing matters Fix the settlement issues, teleporting bugs, etc.
What is MvP? Working, interesting and fun; We're getting there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a side note, I have yet to see a thread entitled "Looking to buy a Destiny's Twin Account, willing to pay full cost value". Sadly, it has been the opposite, and the writing on the wall that PFO has serious problems is the fact that we could not give away Alpha invites.
I'd happily pay full cost for the full value of another account for a friend, but I'm not going to pay an inflated, or even full, price to get the account without he PDFs and figs, which so many people seem to expect. That might go down when the game looks more secure and it's a better than near-even bet that it will be on solid footing a year from now, in which case the DT becomes an additional value, but at the moment, frankly, it's either naive or greedy to expect more than you are offering.
TLDR: at the moment, DT is not worth a premium, to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll add my two cents here. My first impression of the game was that it's much, much rougher than I had expected. I know that graphics and animations are taking a back seat to a lot of the underlying functionality, but it's the first thing you see. I know that the term "minimum viable product" has been around since the beginning of the Kickstarter, but I didn't realize how minimum "minimum" was.
I'm also finding the systems of the game very confusing. One day I logged in to try to figure out the crafting system, and utterly failed. I realize I haven't put in the requisite work to really understand the systems, but I'm finding it a bit overwhelming.
That said, I'm optimistic that these things will make it into the game eventually, and I might be a good candidate to wait a few months after EE to really start digging into the game. The game will be improved and I'll be able to take advantage of any community-written game guides (I'd love a "PFO for Dummies" that includes a lot of basic assumed stuff that the more active alpha players have worked out). I might log in at the beginning anyway, to start the XP clock, and to periodically log in to check the game state and to say "hi", but I haven't decided yet.
I think that the Crowdforging aspect has been working great; hopefully it will give everyone the game they want (though what people ask for and what they want are often different -- hopefully Goblinworks is compensating for this).
I'm coming into this game from the Pathfinder side (rather than from the Eve side), so I'm more of a casual player that's interested in training up a capable character (or two) that can help out and be fairly effective doing it, but I'm not so interested in the politics and kingdom building. So I'm hoping the game will have a place for me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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..."PFO for Dummies"...
Best so far...and it's quite good: Cheatle's Guide
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Goblin Squad Member
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..."PFO for Dummies"...Best so far...and it's quite good: Cheatle's Guide
Have to agree with that. I use it almost once a day that I play. Great resource and it also links other great and useful resources by others.
Sorry, Cheatle. The thread already went outside your parameters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The state of the game. Rough canvas, bugs should be squashed to increase confidence.
The direction of the game. I think the direction is fine, but it seems people do not like the speed of it or the order of steps to get there.
What you feel are positives and negatives of the game.
I don't think I would call it simply a game. I believe there may be a (totally understandable) misunderstanding on what you are paying for in EE. I don't think it's meant to be $15 for playing the game and being ahead, but to be able to participate on the development of a game before you're usually allowed to (aside from playing the game), which is something that is very interesting for some folk. Is the price right for that? I do not know. Perhaps I'm wrong.
How you feel about the process of Alpha to EE: mostly worried about deal-breaking bugs for EE and the reaction time to handle those issues.
Suggestions for the game: Add more people to QA or revisit the QA processes. It cannot be that we get bugs like "Feature A doesn't work at all" when Feature A is just introduced. To pass testing it must have worked partially. I want to be able to know that when you introduce something new it will mostly work, else I'm thinking "Okay, how many weeks until feature A is finally working? What else broke now?"
What you feel is MVP. Looting, encumbrance, SAD, Rep system as intended, optimization (Real question: How can I run Mass Effect 3 at full graphics, but I can only get a choppy "Fastest" experience in PFO?)
What you feel isn't MVP. Settlement warfare.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ladies and Gentlemen,
The state of the game:
Before I make my post, I want to say that I understand and appreciate the amount of work that has gone into this game. I think it is important to remember this is a low-budget, small-team operation that is largely being created by folks who are not long-time video game developers. There's a huge braintrust of creatives associated with this and the Pathfinder brand in general, and sadly, we're not seeing that come through. What do do have is a complex combat and character advancement system paired with an equally laborious crafting system with the overall goal of kingdom building. There's a PVP element to the game that is rich, but it seems to have been the focus from Day 1 and it really shouldn't have been. PVP has its place in the Pathfinder world, but I think we need to keep in mind that the reason most of us played Pathfinder in the first place was the heroic aspect. I don't think we started campaigns so we could specifically slaughter other players, and I think that most of us who have DM'd campaigns have run into intra-party intrigue and confrontations with other NPCs, but those were not the focus of our adventuring. Yet that aspect of the game seems to have overshadowed development. There's advanced concepts in this game, such as the keywords, but I think this concept is really a "behind-the-scenes" idea that other games have really done better. While keywords make sense, I shouldn't be spending an hour worrying about whether this piece of armor is going to correctly jive with my other equipment and the 47 feats I have. We want a thinking game, but we don't want something that becomes work. Reality sucks. We're looking for intelligent escape.The direction of the game:
I'm not sure I see where the game is headed at this point. Right now, there's just a lot of fires to be fought. Within the larger picture of PVP squabbles, resource management and settlement building, we seem to be missing the magical, whimsical world of Pathfinder. While the game is loosely based on the Pathfinder system, I see little in the direction we're headed that would associate this game with the rich history, geography and heroic fun of Pathfinder.
How you feel about the process of Alpha to EE:
I'm going to take this one out of turn. I feel like we have truly been in an Alpha. In fact, I think we have really been in the testing stage that pre-dates even an Alpha. As for EE, I feel that even though the team is looking at November, April seems like a more realistic goal. As a casual solo player, I've grouped only once and I have not relied heavily on my friends at Emerald Lodge or TEO, though I did join TEO in the game to be able to train appropriately. I can slaughter groups of mobs that are white or maybe have a yellow in the mix and I'm a 6/6 Ftr/Cleric. However, the basic pathing and responses of the groups are heavily broken. In groups with even a single caster, I've yet to see that caster not target its own team. Every time, unless I have killed them, those injured monsters go back and slaughter the caster. In multiple caster groups, they often kill the front line of their team. In cases where casters are not present, within 20 seconds of engaging the group, half of the combatants will disengage and run back to their starting positions. Since there are no wandering monsters, this broken system of combat is our only system of combat. It's not ready for prime time. The list of problems goes on. If the game needs to move into EE for cash reasons, GW should let us know. Otherwise, it should be postponed indefinitely.
What you feel are positives and negatives of the game:
Positives:
Complexity - I don't want this to be a system like most MMOs
Economy - I think the player economy is going to be good for the game and will keep out goldsellers
Some adherence to Pathfinder lore and gameplay
Leveling is not the point of the gameNegatives:
Spells - drop rarely and are difficult to use and many have durations that make them pointless to use in pre-combat or actual combat encounters. For example - Blessing - You get two rounds out of this spell. If you cast it before combat, it's pointless. If you cast it in combat, it's good for two swings of your weapon at best.
Crafting - system is so complex and interdependent upon gathering skills and other professions that it becomes too cumbersome to craft and adventure on the same character
Lack of mobs - we have what? a couple of bandit models, a couple of ogre models, a few undead and some goblins. That's not going to cut it when pathfinder pulls from 4 different bestiaries.
Leveling - in the zeal to make leveling not matter exclusively, you've lost some of the power of that pursuit. For example, it's been really hard to find Foci with plusses - so at 6th level cleric I still heal the same amount I did as 1st level cleric, even though I have bought the next rank of the healing. (Actually, I may be rank 3 in this feat now). There's no real impetus for me to advance. Buying higher-level feats but having them completely attuned to your weapon is sad. At the very least, I should be healing at an advanced rate - maybe not 5 pts per level, but something close to show that I have actually leveled.
Lack of player race choicesSuggestions for the game, pressing issues:
I think I have made a few suggestions above, but here's a distillation:
- Crafting needs to be simplified from where it is. I am not sure that the XP costs need to come down, but I find it very hard to pursue the crafting profession I chose. It could be that professions like Armorer and Weaponsmith are easier to handle.
- Spells need to drop more often and be more useful. The durations are way too low, especially given the regen rate of power.
- Bosses should drop random loot other than just recipes, spells or maneuvers.Perhaps crafting items that already have a plus to them.
- Add wandering monsters.
- Add more lore from the Pathfinder universe
- Add a reason to play other than to support your settlement, or what you have is really a MOBA with a world attached.
- Combat animations are weak. Most of the time, they don't show. And I'm running on a pretty stout Alienware rig, so it's not me and likely not my internet connection.
- Combat in general is broken.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Competition
Star Citizen Overview Trailer
Star Citizen Persistent Universe
Star Citizen FPS Demo
Life is Feudal Promo
Black Desert Features
Archeage FeaturesI've also heard positive things about Gloria Victus, Everquest Next, The Repopulation, and Camelot Unchained.
PFO is up against a tide of promising sandboxes and sandparks. It itself feels dated with features and gameplay as uninspired as its graphics. It would have a hard time succeeding at the point even with a great captain at the helm. An ex-marketing guy with no MMO development experience has proven not to be a great captain.
While a decent idea in 2011 the time for PFO to shine is past.
This game is dead on arrival.
Since it looks like most people who post here regularly are disregarding the rules I'm going to go ahead and post a follow up.
I know with the videos I posted the first thing that's going to pop out to everyone is the graphics. They are all better with 3 of them being substantially better.
A lot of people are quick to dismiss graphics and I would agree that in general gameplay features are more important than graphics. However I will say having tried these games (with the exception of Black Desert) that the graphics are actually a pretty big deal.
For instance in Star Citizen I do not believe the racing would be nearly as enjoyable without how great the graphics are. You almost feel like you really are flying the ship at those kind of breakneck speeds.
Or in Archeage, their characters are so beautifully detailed I was actually able to make my avatar look a lot like me by going line by line and through my facial details and having Amora help. It looks enough like me that I'm still kind of stunned every time I take a look at it. That's a pretty cool thing to be able to have your own real face or something darn close to it anyway displayed on your digital avatar.
With both Archage and Star Citizen I'm really blown away with the quality of the game. They are realizing things I always wanted in games and never thought practical. Star Citizen is quickly becoming what I always wanted Freelancer (my favorite game ever) to be, and ArcheAge strikes me as just an incredibly well designed game that combines the best elements of ThemeParks and Sandboxes in really exciting ways, and has probably the best subscription model I've ever seen. I feel like it may actually have the potential to overtake WoW eventually. It reminds me a lot of the fictional Sword Art Online and that's a really good things.
If I can thank Pathfinder Online for one thing it's keeping my attention off these other titles long enough that I'm stunned at the quality of games already on the market, and then being bad enough to not keep me wasting time on it. I would have truly missed out if PFO had succeeded at being mediocre enough to keep my interest.
At this point I just can't wait until my last accounts sell so I can be done with this title for good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point I just can't wait until my last accounts sell so I can be done with this title for good.
It's truly harrowing witnessing such a proponent of this game not only begin to dislike it, but seemingly try to tear out its heart, and eat it. Pathfinder Online is at a critical stage, it needs people to support it and foster the growth process so it can evolve into a game that perhaps even you would be happy with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is pretty clear that MVP or bare bones or whatever you want to call it was overestimated by many people, It simply is pretty much how it was described that it would be.
I fully admit that I thought that features like the auction house, banking, combat (PVP), company/settlement ui, etc... would be a bit more polished (easier to use), when added. That was not promised, though, was it? We were told that things would be there and that they would be improved through time with iterations. My expectations were not realistic there.
I think that there are some people (obviously) that can't or won't be able to match reality with thier expectations. They will leave for awhile or forever. I don't believe that most won't give it another try if and when things improve more to thier own idea of MVP. Nothing wrong with that. It is sad that some of those people need to stab the game in the heart with comments on the way out. Petty really, considering that it is thier own expectations that are not matching the descriptions that we have been dealing with for so long.
All of the forum debate, the drama, the arguing, the ideas.... The building of organizations, the back room dealings. The speculation and the predictions..... All thrown away because the game is developing how and at the pace (nearly) as was forcast, but not fast enough or in the order wanted. Just a loss of patience, right when things are starting to happen.
Everything here, both player and GW, was built from scratch. If it comes into the game a lesser version than anticipated, we will build it back up. Just takes time and effort. That takes patience. Some are willing and some aren't. "Good luck in your quest, fellow gamers. I hope that you find what you really want."
I am certainly not going to give up because some of my expectations were more than I am seeing or than they were described to be. I will give them the time they need. Things get better at a fair pace. That is what matters to me.
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I think the references to Star Citizen and Archeage are humorous, I've been following both.
I put down a couple hundred into Archeage alpha. Talk about a developer company really screwing over it's early adopters - they basically pulled a bait and switch at the end of alpha with the v1.0 release and changed all kinds of core stuff. Now they are doing it again with the Hansa weapons, screwing over all the weapon crafters.
So the game looks pretty? I think it might truly be an amazing game if they stripped out the sea combat components from all the cheesy and poorly conceived Korean crap and made a pirate PvP game.
Star Citizen looks like it could be good, but if you follow the SC Reddit like I do, you know that people are even more entitled and angsty with the developers over there, because they have put down even more money on virtual internet space ships, and so when developers do things they don't like they go over the top with the crying.
Moral of the story?
People always think the grass is greener, but they're never happy, and they often make poor financial decisions.
My advice?
Don't put down hundreds/thousands of dollars on a video game if you can't just walk away. Definitely don't go to Vegas either.
I gave all of my Archeage founders perks to a noob who got griefed/robbed of his farmhouse during launch by some scammers, and I just uninstalled, pocketed the karma, and moved on. (Oh did I forget to mention, the AA community is one of the most toxic I've ever seen.)
I could choose to carry on trolling the Archeage reddit or forums every day - but then that would make me petty and juvenile.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or in Archeage, their characters are so beautifully detailed I was actually able to make my avatar look a lot like me by going line by line and through my facial details and having Amora help. It looks enough like me that I'm still kind of stunned every time I take a look at it. That's a pretty cool thing to be able to have your own real face or something darn close to it anyway displayed on your digital avatar.
With both Archage and Star Citizen I'm really blown away with the quality of the game. They are realizing things I always wanted in games and never thought practical. Star Citizen is quickly becoming what I always wanted Freelancer (my favorite game ever) to be, and ArcheAge strikes me as just an incredibly well designed game that combines the best elements of ThemeParks and Sandboxes in really exciting ways, and has probably the best subscription model I've ever seen. I feel like it may actually have the potential to overtake WoW eventually. It reminds me a lot of the fictional Sword Art Online and that's a really good things.
Have you gone beyond the character creator in ArchAge? Here's a fun little article you might be interested in: Check it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Have you gone beyond the character creator in ArchAge? Here's a fun little article you might be interested in: Check it.Or in Archeage, their characters are so beautifully detailed I was actually able to make my avatar look a lot like me by going line by line and through my facial details and having Amora help. It looks enough like me that I'm still kind of stunned every time I take a look at it. That's a pretty cool thing to be able to have your own real face or something darn close to it anyway displayed on your digital avatar.
With both Archage and Star Citizen I'm really blown away with the quality of the game. They are realizing things I always wanted in games and never thought practical. Star Citizen is quickly becoming what I always wanted Freelancer (my favorite game ever) to be, and ArcheAge strikes me as just an incredibly well designed game that combines the best elements of ThemeParks and Sandboxes in really exciting ways, and has probably the best subscription model I've ever seen. I feel like it may actually have the potential to overtake WoW eventually. It reminds me a lot of the fictional Sword Art Online and that's a really good things.
I actually haven't read any reviews, checked out their forums, or even read their own promises about the game. I've just played it. Basically stopping only long enough to eat and sleep (for about four hours each night) for the past two days.
It's the most fun I've ever had in an MMO. Perhaps any game ever. The quality speaks for itself, everything I have done is top notch. It has insane character variety. There are 10 skill trees and each character can have any 3, with there being synergies between almost every tree. My current character is Archery/Shadowplay(Rogue)/Battlerage(Melee Damage). Really fun to pound on enemies at a range then pull out my nasty melee surprises when they try to close. Very good against builds that focus a lot of their effort on getting in close or trying to keep you at a distance. I haven't tried a few of the features I'm most excited about but I'll try them for myself rather than reading about them.
And it isn't the other MMO for me. It's my MMO. The main reason I'm even checking these boards is because I have account sales going on right now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point I just can't wait until my last accounts sell so I can be done with this title for good.It's truly harrowing witnessing such a proponent of this game not only begin to dislike it, but seemingly try to tear out its heart, and eat it. Pathfinder Online is at a critical stage, it needs people to support it and foster the growth process so it can evolve into a game that perhaps even you would be happy with.
@ Andius, sensibly you should praise the game till your accounts sell then switch to being hater :D
@ Saith, It is the huge flaw of crowdforging and transparency.
I know of one game that actually failed because of a single individual who argued with the devs early on and then threw a tantrum and spent a year creating accounts under various names all over the web specifically to denigrate the game in every forum he could find in order to prove he was "right". He must have wasted 1000s of hours attempting to undermine the game just so he could say "I told you so" when it failed. I suspect he spent more time trying to undermine the game then some of the full time devs spent working on it :D
Sidenote:
On a more generic note kinda unrelated to the above, the gaming world is changing and the gaming community has more women than ever, more casual players and the anemic caffeine addicted nerdy leet PvPer with a bad attitude flaming everyone is a dieing race. Gaming has become mainstream. Gamergate is an example of how things are changing and some people do not like it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius, sensibly you should praise the game till your accounts sell then switch to being hater :D
Not the way I operate. I don't want anyone to feel like I left them holding my mess and they didn't know what they were getting themselves into. Besides I already have offers on all of them except one. The 400$ pair should hopefully be sold by the end of today.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hate to break it to you but PFO is a grind based game. When you are killing enemies with certain weapons and picking out specific enemy types to get the points you need to advance your character, that's grinding no matter crap Ryan says to the contrary.
Grinding = doing anything when you would rather be doing something else if not for the fact that that specific content is accelerating the development of your character stats.
Besides. I've been playing this game 2 days and I'm already halfway to max level. It's probably actually less grindy than PFO... or maybe it just seems that way because it's actually fun.
On a more generic note kinda unrelated to the above, the gaming world is changing and the gaming community has more women than ever, more casual players and the anemic caffeine addicted nerdy leet PvPer with a bad attitude flaming everyone is a dieing race. Gaming has become mainstream. Gamergate is an example of how things are changing and some people do not like it.
On that note you might find it interesting that one big thing that caused me to give up on PFO is that Amora completely lost interest once she saw it being played. I also tried Archeage because she said it looked amazing.
I think you'll find that if you want to draw in the female crowd, a game that attracts an audience of primarily middle aged men might not be the best deal.
With every girl gamer I've known graphics were a way bigger deal and character customization was huge. I'm sure that's not 100% of girl gamers but it's generally true.
Amora also asked me to mention that the action was way better, which was probably the biggest factor for her.
For me the loss of full loot is the biggest sacrifice but giving it up has let them build the full Themepark model into a sandbox with territorial combat and which has added a trade/piracy system to sort of bring looting back into relevancy. That's exciting to me as my main complaint with themeparks is I feel like there is nothing meaningful to fight over. If not for that I would have been satisfied with TOR.
I like that I can enjoy general themepark content then use the loot from it fighting for causes I actually care about.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@ Saith, It is the huge flaw of crowdforging and transparency.
I know of one game that actually failed because of a single individual who argued with the devs early on and then threw a tantrum and spent a year creating accounts under various names all over the web specifically to denigrate the game in every forum he could find in order to prove he was "right". He must have wasted 1000s of hours attempting to undermine the game just so he could say "I told you so" when it failed. I suspect he spent more time trying to undermine the game then some of the full time devs spent working on it :D
If one guy destroyed your game, it must have been pretty bad to begin with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If one guy destroyed your game, it must have been pretty bad to begin with.@ Saith, It is the huge flaw of crowdforging and transparency.
I know of one game that actually failed because of a single individual who argued with the devs early on and then threw a tantrum and spent a year creating accounts under various names all over the web specifically to denigrate the game in every forum he could find in order to prove he was "right". He must have wasted 1000s of hours attempting to undermine the game just so he could say "I told you so" when it failed. I suspect he spent more time trying to undermine the game then some of the full time devs spent working on it :D
It was low budget, buggy and very niche so not in a great state no. However the negative publicity basically encouraged the investors to pull the plug on further dev money meaning it was released too early and guaranteed to fail.
I suppose the point is the nature of the net is such that one voice in criticism will outweigh a dozen votes in favor of something. It's why those Shanghai Ebay companies will often bend over backwards to avoid a single negative review.
I would like crowdforging to work and I respect and admire Ryan's commitment to transparency - I am just too old and cynical to actually endorse it as a good idea.
I have to say Archeage is a piling heap of horse manure. Looked into it briefly and I fail to see how anyone can think the game is good. This is not to excuse pathfinder however and I will continue to watch from a distance though I do think Dancey anticipating 10k within a few months of the start of EE is a little optimistic from what I am seeing.
I would like pathfinder to succeed I really would then it would give me options if Phoebe does not shake up null. I must admit to being a little dubious about that success currently from what I hear but I never intended trying the game till a lot nearer OE on the grounds I could not sell it to the corp. My watchfullness is waning but not dead quite dead yet
WOD was never going to get off the ground if you ask me. They put CQ into incarna as a testbed for the code and it literally burnt out grapics card with one player on screen and limited environment. Don't get me wrong the detail was incredible but you can't play what you cannot run
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It was low budget, buggy and very niche so not in a great state no. However the negative publicity basically encouraged the investors to pull the plug on further dev money meaning it was released too early and guaranteed to fail.
I suppose the point is the nature of the net is such that one voice in criticism will outweigh a dozen votes in favor of something. It's why those Shanghai Ebay companies will often bend over backwards to avoid a single negative review.
I would like crowdforging to work and I respect and admire Ryan's commitment to transparency - I am just too old and cynical to actually endorse it as a good idea.
The problem isn't crowd-forging then, the guy would have acted the same way anyway without it, the problem is showing people an unfinished product.
Crowdforging is a lie anyway, and it cannot work, but in your case, that's not the problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I said it in another thread and I'll repeat it here: ArcheAge is a very pretty game. I do wonder, though, what the Korean devs think breasts are made of, as actions as trivial as speaking or breathing set them jiggling like paint shakers.
And the story-pushing cut scenes are insanely overlong.
That aside, it's a nice piece of brain candy with some interesting mechanics. I have it in my rotation of games to be played every now and then.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For instance in Star Citizen I do not believe the racing would be nearly as enjoyable without how great the graphics are. You almost feel like you really are flying the ship at those kind of breakneck speeds.
Or in Archeage, their characters are so beautifully detailed I was actually able to make my avatar look a lot like me by going line by line and through my facial details and having...
Archeage is not anywhere near a competitor for PFO. It never was and never will be. I've played the game for some time, have dropped too much cash in it and find it to be simply a more grindy version of WoW. It's gorgeous, don't get me wrong. But the mechanics are very simplistic and its a simple point-and-shoot game. It's nothing that's really going to hold the long-term attention of anyone who's older than 25 and has played an MMO before. It's a pretty standard Trion Worlds Pay-to-Win game.
You really need to back off the comparisons with a lot of the games you brought up because they are really very different in character and creation. I'm sorry you are down on PFO because I do think it's a diamond in the rough.
Personally, the fact that the NPCs in Archeage still speak Korean drives me nuts and throws me out of whatever immersion I had every time. But that's just me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think when I backed the kickstarter I over estimated the vision and possibly the team.
Instead of complaining I will state first what I would have found acceptable and then what I wanted for a future vision.
What I wanted at the least was dungeons and dragons online ported to a pvp sandbox with a combination of randomly generated dungeons player generated dungeons/lairs player and npc run towns caravans trade highway robbery and player owned boats and houses etc.
What I would really like is a persistent radiant AI populated world in a dnd/pathfinder setting combining the procedural generation and evolving world aspects of no mans sky with the graphics and lore of skyrim. I want to play dnd with the server as the dungeon master. I want to be able to do ALL the crazy things I think of doing at a table top session simulated for me and all the other players in the game world. This is what I have dreamed of for 26 years as a PC online rpg. I am still waiting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For instance in Star Citizen I do not believe the racing would be nearly as enjoyable without how great the graphics are. You almost feel like you really are flying the ship at those kind of breakneck speeds.
Or in Archeage, their characters are so beautifully detailed I was actually able to make my avatar look a lot like me by going line by line and through my facial details and having...
Archeage is not anywhere near a competitor for PFO. It never was and never will be. I've played the game for some time, have dropped too much cash in it and find it to be simply a more grindy version of WoW. It's gorgeous, don't get me wrong. But the mechanics are very simplistic and its a simple point-and-shoot game. It's nothing that's really going to hold the long-term attention of anyone who's older than 25 and has played an MMO before. It's a pretty standard Trion Worlds Pay-to-Win game.
You really need to back off the comparisons with a lot of the games you brought up because they are really very different in character and creation. I'm sorry you are down on PFO because I do think it's a diamond in the rough.
Personally, the fact that the NPCs in Archeage still speak Korean drives me nuts and throws me out of whatever immersion I had every time. But that's just me.
I definitely noticed it has all the core features of WoW, and WoW really has a lot of features people like. But here is what sets it apart for me:
1. Mounts. In WoW you must dismount to fight. In Archage I find myself sometimes charging in on a mount and killing the enemy entirely with mounted attacks. Sometimes opening up with mounted attacks then dismounting to finish the fight, and sometimes opening up on foot and switching to a mount to finish the fight depending on the tactics needed for the situation at hand.
2. Flight. Flight has the ability to attack other players in flight as well as drop bombs on things below. It's not just "Ooooh look at things from up here!"
3. Ships. Ships come fitted with cannons and naval combat is a thing in a similar fashion to Darkfall, except there is more chance of it actually happening.
4. Trade/Piracy/Banditry. The trade system has trade packs that can't just be teleported to another location on the map. They have to be physically moved there generally using some form of trade vehicle or vessel. Other players can attack you and steal the trade items to reap the benefits for themselves.
5. Territorial control. You can fight over player controlled territory and holding territory yields rewards. This of course comes with the ability to build up your own territory with the structures you want and truly make it your own.
6. No need to respec ever. You can switch any of your skill trees for a fairly minor cost. You just have to level each skill tree separately. So you can play a level all the way up as say an Outrider (Archery/Shadowplay/Battlerage) and then decide you want to play as a templar sometimes (Vitalism/Defense/Auramancy) and rather than rerolling you can just level those skills on the same character.
7. The abilities remind me more of Guild Wars than WoW. Unlike in WoW where your class gets certain skills at certain levels every passive and active skill is purchased using skillpoints and there are a lot of good abilities to consider. You never have that ability you didn't really want but you got as a part of your class. Everything is there because you chose for it to be there. Also if you hate juggling a ton of active abilities you can pretty viably invest most of you points into passives that don't need to be juggled.
So to summarize my feelings on how it's different:
A. There is opportunity for meaningful combat through territorial control and piracy. (The main selling point of PFO to me.)
B. If it exists in the game it can be used in combat. There is none of that "Here is your ship/mount/flying mount but if you want to fight you'll have to get off of it."
C. You only need a single character to experience the whole game.
That's really cool to me because I really do enjoy some themepark style PvE. I just hate when raids and arenas are as deep as the gameplay and objectives go. The fact I can take my character I got all this cool raid gear on and go use it to fight for a player owned castle or protect real players from player pirates is a huge deal to me.
It actually brings the Themepark PvE community and the Sandbox PvP community into an environment they can both enjoy together.
As to the "point and shoot" and "pay to win" accusations. Hate to break it to you but their combat system is deeper, richer, and faster paced than PFOs. Also I'm currently free to play and the limitations are really to my crafting abilities. I haven't noticed it holding me back in combat at all.
Also I think you would be surprised what games are competitions for what games. I remember when I played Darkfall the release of Rift took a lot of players with it, and when Skyrim came out it was like Jonesville the day after. Any good game is competition for PFO. I know for a fact most of the Freevale crew have been playing Archage.
Infact I know of one major settlement playing Archarge, one playing LiF and another seriously considering LiF as backup, and two of TEO's most historically active council members (Solemor and Waruko) left for Star Citizen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have almost as much in Star Citizen as I have in PFO including all my ships. That said I have contributed all that I will until release. I don't even go to their boards anymore unless I get a head's up from an affiliate or two of mine.
My take is that I will await release of the single-player Squadron 42, and on the basis of what that turns out to be may choose to go with the online iteration.
@Ryan: SC will offer player hosted licenses but the company intends to offer a persistent server as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What I would really like is a persistent radiant AI populated world in a dnd/pathfinder setting combining the procedural generation and evolving world aspects of no mans sky with the graphics and lore of skyrim. I want to play dnd with the server as the dungeon master. I want to be able to do ALL the crazy things I think of doing at a table top session simulated for me and all the other players in the game world. This is what I have dreamed of for 26 years as a PC online rpg. I am still waiting.
We all are. I'm not sure a small shop can do that. I think you would need a WoW-sized development operation and a re-thinking of the MMO in general to even get halfway to that goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think anything but a small shop can approach such a mission realistically and they would have to generate a revenue stream while they did it. Sorta like what we see GW doing here, despite all the dramatics of doom in certain quarters. A big team would be too expensive to permit iterative development of all the systems that would be needed. A small, capable outfit might be able to get by on a realistic revenue stream to build the whole game over many years. Sorta like what GW is doing.
Oh, did I already point that out?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My opinion of the game so far:
1) No where near a point of MVP to me - MVP = when I am willing to actually plunk down the expected $15/month.
2) Will be forced to, as I dislike most peoples' version of PvP, to wear & use only starter items for my main and if I cannot use an item immediately from loot, junk it. PvP should be meaningful, such as having an impact on the larger work around my character. PvP just to grab a few minor items isn't.
3) I believe that all I will do for some time is log in my main just to keep XP flowing to him and my DT, but do little else as the game, as it now stands and is expected to be come EE, rather boring. I will still take advantage of gaining XP from day one, but have no reason to spend any except on my crafter alt to make some minimal coins to help outfit both toon down the road.
4) I will play in earnest once GW has PfO a game worthy of my attention (which will require more things to do in game, better rates of arcane spell drops, more mobs to fight, escalations that can be defeated and replaced by new forces, Hell Knights, dungeons and other side adventures, etc... ad nauseum)
5) A rethinking of rep loss and training issues - current plans allow for recovery of rep far too quickly IMHO, rewarding those who have decided PvP need not be meaningful, just a means to get rich, having little impact on the wider world other than an occasional purchase at one of the AH's with their ill gotten gains. Rep loss on second hit is fine, but limit recovery to a MAX of 5/hour total. You want to PvP outside wars, fine, but know that society takes a dim view, and you'll likely need to wait days to be able to train.
I have 4 months of paid subscription free due to my backing both Kickstarters, so once EE occurs, GW has 4 months to convince me I am not throwing good money after bad - make sure the game is worth the estimated $15/month. If you can't do so in 4 months, push back EE until you have things closer to being able to do so. Hell, some people only have 3 months free, so better GW set that as a goal. I don't much care if EE doesn't start till March 2015 as long as a more complete game is offered, and shortly after that it is upgraded to actually be worth paying for the game. While I disagree with others that certain other games in various stages of development out there are PfO busters, I do think PfO can bust itself once players are expected to fork over $. At that point I fully expect, if it isn't much further along than what we can expect in just a week or two, the various MMO blogs and review sites will be justified in giving PfO a D (at best).
Hope I stuck to your rules Cheatle. I have noticed many have not :(