Gael Lloris's page

I just noticed this is an "evil only" party.

I was going to suggest the Dawnflower Dervish.

I am assuming that is for good only? lol

What is the rest of the party doing? Which type of bard is best in part depends on what they're doing.

The composition right now is:

Rogue
Witch
Druid
Alchemist

We have another two or three players that have to choose a class.

Alright. So we rolled stats and I rolled CHA high enough that I think I am going to be a bard.

Stats are in order: 8, 16, 14, 8, 13, 15 (these includes racial mods and extra point buy)

We are all evil goblins.

Question is, what type of build should I go. I've never been a bard before. I've heard that straight bard is the best, but what kind of other builds have people done before?

Thanks for your suggestions!

Seriously, straight Guide/Trapper Ranger, or Freebooter/Trapper Ranger is everything that your old PC was.

If you must dip, then Weapon Master Fighter, or Urban Barbarian are good choices.

Where's freebooter from?

I would suggest going Zen Archer monk. Good survivability and really good damage.

I appreciate the suggestion there Dragon, however, my character was an outdoors, mercenary type. I do not think monk would go great with the character's image that has been developed for 15 levels. lol

Nah, PF has the mix and match ACFs instead.

You may want to wait for the new advanced class guide book, it has a rogue/ranger class that may be better in line (or may be not, who knows?) with what you want.

Eh may not have that kind of time. I just want my character to have decent damage along with able to survive attacks. This DM likes to attack back people a lot more than the front-liners.

Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Can you post your build from 3.5 so we can compare and see exactly what it does?

+1

Sure. Build was Human Ranger 10/ Scout 5

Feats were:

Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Improved Skirmish
Manyshot
Greater Manyshot
Swift Hunter

I had a +1 Hunting Holy Composite Longbow (+1 STR), Greater Bracers of Archer, a chronocharm that let me move half speed as a swift action 1/day, Dex gloves of +4 I think, +1 mithral chainshirt, ring of deflection

I could apply the skirmish dmg to undead, constructs, and plants due to the Swift Hunter feat.

I could shoot 4 arrows with the Greater Manyshot feat and each shot would get the 6d6 (might have been 7d6 @ 15th lvl) of skirmish damage on top of the base bow dmg and favored enemy bonus. I'd also gain a dodge bonus for moving, bringing my AC into the low 30's easy.

I liked him and the way it built up. Don't know if I can have a decent AC now along with damage..... although I am willing to give up some damage for survive-ability.

Well it's probably not the same, but there is an archetype for the Rogue called Scout. It allows you to deal sneak attack damage on a charge and later (at 8th level) once you moved at least 10 feet.

If you make a Rogue(Scout)8/Ranger 7 you could use "Shot on the Run" to jump from cover to cover getting sneak attack on the single shot you fire.

Right but they have to be flat-flooted to you correct?

Alright; so in this game I had a 3.5 ranger/scout lvl 15 archer. He died and went on to create another character who just died as well (still mad at that one). Anyway, in order to still stay level 15, I can bring back my ranger/scout but in Pathfinder form.

There is no Scout class anymore, however, I am allowed to mix and match classes and redo feats and such to fit everything Pathfinder.

So what is the best mix and match or single class that I can do and the build. I am almost thinking Ranger/Fighter, possibly using the Archer archetype for the Fighter but not sure. This DM likes to use combat maneuvers too.

Obviously, I'll be doing a lot less damage than my ranger/scout, but what can you do. Thanks for your help!

I am not saying I agree with the Standard Action ruling, though technically it would be an interpretation, not a House Rule.

Regardless, I would still say that having a weapon that gives you an extra attack when you make a standard action attack is hardly useless. It usually requires several feats to accomplish that via other means.

Alright everyone, the DM of the game made a ruling. In order to use the double barrel option, it is a standard action. So using a full round action, I cannot use the double barrels.

That ruling makes me sad. =( Oh well.... time to reconfigure my feats a little and take rapid shot. LOL

So with rapid shot and my boots of speed.... for ten rounds, I still get 8 shots.

If a Musket Master at level three buys a Double Barrel Musket can he make Full round attacks with just the musket not using rapid shot, A normal gunslinger with two guns can fire both of them so can a musket master using that gun fire both barrels using a full round attack action? Reload is a free with alchemical and I would have to use that too. Help?

You need Rapid Reload along with the alchemical cartridges to make reloading a free action.

Kiinyan wrote:

Piazza2425 wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.

So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?

Slight derail, but wasn't the volley rule discarded in Pathfinder? I thought all Scorching Rays get precision.

EDIT: never mind I checked the FAQ. It was a recent ruling that precision is only applied once, hence why I was unaware.

Volley rule was but it seems to have been the reason for the ray ruling. With double barreled pistols I would just base it on being hit in the heart with two bullets at the same time is significantly less than twice as deadly as being hit in the heart by one bullet. If both bullets hit, they are both going to hit the same spot so precision damage should only apply once. Really only an issue when a pistolero has signature deed:up close and deadly as well as no chance of misfires, which is level 13 (and other classes are breaking down by then, so probably not a pressing issue for the devs).

I just thought of something. The precision thing is a non-issue because I have to spend grit points in order to apply to a hit. It is a completely different mechanism than let's say sneak attack. So I can apply that deed to each shot fired.

Precision damage should only apply to one barrel... But it sdoesn't specifically say that, so you'll have to take it on a case by case basis. In the case of the Pistolero's up close and Deadly, he needs to spend a grit point to apply the bonus damage to a single hit, so you'd be spending grit at a pretty astronomical rate. The attacks for a double barreled pistol are fired with a single action, but they're still two separate attacks.

So then it should be treated as like a scorching ray in terms of precision damage? Even though you shoot 3 different rays, you only apply the precision damage to one ray?

cnetarian wrote:

You're forgetting that the pistolero should also be doing half of (4d6) with each miss (up close and personal).

Yes, this is an amazing amount of damage but it is still a little low for a TWF double-barreled pistolero created at level 15. The game is known to break down at higher levels and this is an example of it, but playing this character up to level 15 would have been incredibly aggravating and prior to level 13 the character would have been unreliable.

To shut down such a character (if the character does not have deft shootist), she/he/it provokes an attack-of-opportunity every time they fire and also when they reload - throw a critter with reach & combat reflexes next to the gunslinger and the options are no full attack action or hurting gunslinger (a CR 13 Ice Devil presents a serious challenge to a level 15 character, joy joy). Character starts with 2 attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes an AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO, makes two attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes and AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO ... .

Absolutely. This character can definitely die quite easily. Hopefully I can get my AC up a little more.

Question, so with each dual shot of my pistol, does each pellet receive the 4d6 of precision damage from the up close and personal deed, or do I only get it once per firing of the gun? So 12 x 4d6 or 6 x 4d6?

You're forgetting that the pistolero should also be doing half of (4d6) with each miss (up close and personal).

Yes, this is an amazing amount of damage but it is still a little low for a TWF double-barreled pistolero created at level 15. The game is known to break down at higher levels and this is an example of it, but playing this character up to level 15 would have been incredibly aggravating and prior to level 13 the character would have been unreliable.

To shut down such a character (if the character does not have deft shootist), she/he/it provokes an attack-of-opportunity every time they fire and also when they reload - throw a critter with reach & combat reflexes next to the gunslinger and the options are no full attack action or hurting gunslinger (a CR 13 Ice Devil presents a serious challenge to a level 15 character, joy joy). Character starts with 2 attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes an AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO, makes two attacks, provokes and AoO, reloads one barrel, provokes and AoO, reloads the second barrel, provokes an AoO ... .

Absolutely. This character can definitely die quite easily. Hopefully I can get my AC up a little more.

magnuskn wrote:

I find the whole Gunslinger class to be quite unfortunate, but one thing which really irks me in the fluff division is that the iconic Gunslinger is a double wielder, which mechanically is the most difficult to pull off and, unless one plays with cheese like Gloves of Storing, weapon chords or alchemist third arms, extremely ineffective.

Depends on how you look at it. Remember, we are talking emerging firearms here. A Colt revolver is not an emerging fire arm. Instead of thinking Western movie, think Pirate movie. In those, the pirates would pull of duel wielding pistols by simply having lots of them they would QuickDraw, shoot, then drop.

Oh man Troll! That's a great idea! If the DM puts the kabosh on me loading the guns 24 times...... I'll just carry 6 of them and quick draw them all. XD I love that idea! Oh man..... sure I could only do it once doing the double barrel trick but hey, save it for the BBEG.

trollbill wrote:

iammercy wrote:

Also it states very clearly in Core that there is are limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Alchemical + Rapid Reload = Free Action is true.
That doesn't mean the DM should let him do it 400 times in a six second round. I would certainly not allow two reloads (both barrels) between shots as a free.

Do you put a limit on the number of arrows an archer can draw and load as a free action?

If I were inclined to limit free actions, I'd probably figure what the maximum number of free actions an archer would need to take to cover his full attack routine and AoO's at 20th level and use that as a good baseline for what the GS should be able to do.

Couldn't there be some type of item that lets you reload both barrels at the same time? And besides, I didn't cheese it completely because I did not take Rapid Shot... I could have, but thought that was just too much.

And yes, it is hilarious that the DM is flipping out about this.

iammercy wrote:

Fake Healer wrote:

I know this is your PC so maybe you could help explain where all the damage comes from besides the 1d8 +4d6, and the +13 from weapon bonus and dex....I still can't figure out how we came to +24....
And it's pretty humorous that our GM is flipping over this...

Deadly Aim?

Yeah, Deadly AIm at that level should be worth +8, then another +8 for DEX and a +5 weapon gives him +23, or +24 with PBS.

Yup..... the guy above is correct. =)

Without Rapid Shot, he can fire six single shots at +21/+16/+11 primary and +21/+16/+11 off-hand, counting all bonuses (BAB, Dex, Weapon Focus, enhancement bonus) and penalties (-4 Two-Weapon Fighting with a one-handed weapon in the off-hand, -4 Deadly Aim) except Point Blank Shot. If firing both barrels at once (an additional -4 penalty), the sequence becomes (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) primary and (+17/+17)/(+12/+12)/(+7/+7) off-hand.

How the RAW reloading works:
** spoiler omitted **

He will be very effective against an enemy with poor touch AC at short range; of course, at that range, he's within charging distance for the animal totem barbarian, the pounce-rake animal companion or eidolon, etc. (yay, rocket-tag) Against other opponents, he'll be able to do consistent damage (4d6 of damage per attack, even on a miss); however, a guaranteed 48d6 of potential damage per round (for double-firing) is less impressive if it has to...

Each cartridge is just 12 gp. So they'll cost just 6 gp/shot. I'd assume they created enough to last awhile and will be keeping track.

Fake Healer wrote:

"Alchemical cartridges + Rapid Reload = free action to reload.

Only have 2 x +5 distance double barrel pistols, weapon cords, handy haversack, and boots of speed.

I have:
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Weapon Focus
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Signature Deed (Up Close and Personal I think it is)
Dodge
Improved Critical
and there's a 12th feat"

That is what he has going on right now, from his email to our group.

that is most of his details to work with...

12th feat is Deadly Aim...... no Rapid Shot

BAB: +15
PBS: +1
WF: +1
Enhancement: +5
Dex: +8 (forgot stat bumps for the character, so could be +9)
TWF: -4
Double barrel shot: -4
Deadly Aim: -4

Attack = 17/12/7 (primary) 17/12/7 (off-hand) = 12 shots <==== these shots do not include PBS addition

Also took as a skill Craft Alchemy for 1/10 the cost. Sure did have the money for it all. =P

There's the work for you guys. Enjoy.

Question I have is, does the precision damage apply to every shot or just to half of them?

Sounds quite challenging.

I think it'll be okay. It all depends on initiative though. Also remember with that negative channel, it'll also hurt the NPCs. ;-)

If you want to tone it down slightly, do not make the wizard a summoner.

I'm new to GMing, and the last encounter I build for my group, of which I thought would be quite hard turned out to be far too easy.

So now I want to make it harder, but I'm kinda afraid that in my persuit of making it not "too easy" I go too far the other way and make it "TPK guarantee".

It's a party of 6, all are level 2, and 25 point-buy.
6 people raises the APL to 3, and I think most say that 25 point-buy is another +1 so it would be APL 4.

The group it not really too optimised though and consists of:
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian (uses shield and 1hd weapon mostly)
Sorcerer (mostly utility spells)
Hedge Witch (healing focused)
Ninja
Loremaster Bard
Magus

I was thinking of throwing a group of four rival adventurers at them:
Human Wild Rager Barbarian (greataxe)
human wizard (or summoner maybe)
halfling rogue
Drow Noble cleric (possibly normal drow) (negative energy)

I thought about making them level 3 with the heroic NPC array.

But I have a couple of concerns:
Wild Rager: can do 2 attacks/round with his greataxe, which against level 2 can be very very bad. However his AC will be so horribly he'll get hit alot.
Cleric: Drow Noble may be overkill, but normal drow should work too. His negative channel 2d6 may hit the party hard too. I might make this one level 2

I want it to be hard, and a few of the players may end up unconcious, but I don't want a TPK. So what do you think?

Devilkiller - Yeah I hope the DM throws me some freakin' bones, otherwise, it will not be very fun at all. Also yes, I will have at least one evocation spell on hand at every level.

Lazurin - Yeah the metamagic feats I am definitely interested in especially extend spell. I may take extend spell at 7th level. And then intensify at 11th or 13th.

Lazurin - Metamagic is definitely a great idea. That's why I think the Rods will help a lot. It is just a shame that he can't craft them until 11th level. Which metamagic feat (if any) to take at 7th level and which ones to get from the Rods starting at 11th could certainly be open to debate.

Piazza2425 - The MT will probably be the only PC capable of delivering damage with a touch attack or AoE. That could be critical against foes with very high AC, so I wouldn't sell it short. That said, most of your spell slots overall probably won't be damage spells, especially on the Cleric side. You do need to fill those Evocation slots though, so you might as well fill them effectively!

With the ability to Scribe Scrolls and access to both Wizard and Cleric spells you should eventually be able to create kind of a Swiss Army Knife effect by having the right spell available for every situation. Honestly if you're crafting wands and rods you probably won't have much time to research spells. I'm sure we'll kill some evil Wizards and take their spellbooks though. Heck, it has already happened once.

XD

You really think so Devilkill? Are you thinking about the same person I am? LOL

Anyway, Devilkiller is absolutely correct about how you are going about it A Man In Black.

Yeah patience with the character is not at the forefront atm.

So Devilkiller, what do you think about me being more CC/debuff/buff and less damage? I mean I'll still have some obviously, maybe like 67/33. I definitely will have options, although, I will need time to sit down and research spells since I do not get the freebie's that the wizard class provides once I go MT.

Man in Black - Your comments seem quite critical and not very helpful. Not using Burning Hands isn't really much of a plan on how to play MT. Relying on Obscuring Mist to deal with swarms might be a flawed plan too.

First off, you are incorrect about swarms being either mindless or susceptible to weapon damage. The very first swarm I ran across when checked the PRD was the Bat Swarm, which has Int 2 and immunity to weapon damage. The Bat Swarm also has blindsense, so Obscuring Mist seems unlikely to fool it. Actually, I missed another swarm which came before that, the Army Ant Swarm, which has the Scent ability. That makes it another swarm which probably wouldn't be fooled by Obscuring Mist. Next up is the Centipede Swarm, which could use Tremorsense to detect foes through Obscuring Mist.

The list of swarms which can defeat your tactic goes on an on, so if Piazza2425 listens to your advice we'll probably all end up stumbling around in the mist getting eaten by swarms while we yell at him for not using Burning Hands on them. On the other hand, I just realized that maybe you could be somebody from our own group messing around with us rather than a serious participant in the conversation. That would be pretty funny, actually.

What's with the "rain on your parade" attitude A Man in Black?

This thread is to help me understand the MT prestige class, which many have definitely increased my knowledge of how to play such a mix class.

I thank you for your information and definitely did let me think about spell selection.

P.S. Another poster said "great for swarms", not I.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Piazza2425 wrote:

Obscuring Mist does not get rid of the swarm. It'll eventually find you again. So how is Burning Hands bad if you are the only one that can hurt them?

Yeah, it's still pretty bad, since you need a bunch of casts of it to accomplish anything.

I also like the walkback from "great for swarms" to claiming it's okay if you don't have any alternatives.

This really seems to be the consensus on the MT. Because my groups does have a decent amount of damage output, to do more things like buff, debuff, and CC is where I should go since we are lacking in that department.

I may just go that route, and sprinkle in an offensive spell here and there, just not concentrate in it.

I think I am understanding what you guys are saying, and as I am looking at/reading the books more.

Thanks for all the help everyone. Keep it up if you feel like it, as I am still unsure of all of my feat selections.

Plenty of good advice so far, I'd just like to mention that the best use I've found for a MT is as a diviner. Focusing on divination and buffs can give the party a lot of options- especially if you have 6 other players to pick up the slack in damage.

Well just to give you an idea, we have had 3 PC deaths in 4 levels. They have not been stupid mistakes either.

This DM is taking no prisoners.

Piazza2425 wrote:

Like my buddy said, this DM is out to destroy the party. And rightfully so. That should be the intent of all DM's.

I've never been out to destroy my parties. A large number of my NPC's however have had intentions to harm or destroy their characters. The distinction is important.

Thanks for the advice meabolex! =)

Definitely will take it into consideration.

Piazza2425 wrote:

Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.

*shrug* Then use option 2.

Um meabolex, this is Pathfinder not 3.5.

My philosophy regarding the 3.5 prestige classes that require multiclassing caster classes:

1. Use the 3.5 Practiced Spellcaster feat.

2. Specifically design the character to not care about SR.

Option 1 is the best one if your GM is willing to use 3.5 bandaid mechanics. You'll need to take it twice (once for wizard, once for cleric). It's definitely not too powerful.

Option 2 is much trickier but still doable. You simply pick all the No SR spells and focus on those. No SR spells typically include buffs and a lot of conjuration spells. Don't even attempt to take Spell Penetration and/or beat SR. Since both classes have access to the Summon Monster spells, focusing on those can be pretty strong for the MT build.

Obscuring Mist does not get rid of the swarm. It'll eventually find you again. So how is Burning Hands bad if you are the only one that can hurt them?

At that moment, we did not have enough cash for splash weapons. Sometimes you use what you have and have no choice.

A highly regarded expert wrote:

Yes, I forgot about burning hands. Great for swarms.

No, it is not.

Let's look at the average damage of Burning Hands cast by a level-appropriate wizard versus... well, let's just do all of the Paizo-published swarms in the SRD, what the hell. Bear in mind, all of these numbers are based on a straight wizard caster. If the MT takes cleric levels before level 6, then reduce the damage dealt by the caster accordingly.

CR 1 - Average damage: 3.75
Amoeba Swarm - 9 HP
Spider Swarm - 9 HP

CR 2 - Average damage: 7.5
Bat Swarm - 13 HP
Rat Swarm - 16 HP
Snake Swarm - 16 HP
Monkey Swarm - 22 HP
Cockroach Swarm - 26 HP

CR 3 - Average damage: 11.275
Mosquito Swarm - 31 HP
Wasp Swarm - 31 HP

CR 4 - Average damage 15
Centipede Swarm - 31 HP
Venomous Snake Swarm - 37 HP
Crab Swarm - 38 HP
Leech Swarm - 39 HP

CR 5 or higher - Average damage - 18.75
Army Ant Swarm - 49 HP
Jellyfish Swarm - 54 HP, exclusively encountered underwater
Bloodhaze Mosquito Swarm - 71 HP
Rot Grub Swarm - 85 HP
Hellwasp Swarm - 90 HP, fire resist 10
Tick Swarm - 120 HP, Burning Hands can be used to remove ticks from allies

Burning Hands does less than 50% damage on average to nearly every swarm in the game; and that's if the swarm doesn't succeed on their Reflex save. In all cases, even max damage won't one-shot a swarm. It's a terrible spell compared to effects that would entirely negate a swarm, such as Obscuring Mist. There is no good reason to take Burning Hands to fight a swarm.

Okay, so a ranger cannot just have barkskin prepared and I can create a wand from that? Need to have a scroll for that?

Piazza2425 wrote:

Curious, how do other people provide spells for wands? Been trying to read the crafting rules and such but I think I have missed that part.

You have to have the spell prepared/known for Spontaneous or scroll of it for each and every day of crafting .

I am an evoker that can change the elemental damage of a spell so that is some flexibility right there as well.

This only for the spell you cast not form wands or scroll.

Curious, how do other people provide spells for wands? Been trying to read the crafting rules and such but I think I have missed that part.

I am an evoker that can change the elemental damage of a spell so that is some flexibility right there as well.

The wands will also be for other buff spells for the group.

The key words in this thread are "there is a lot of SR involved." No matter how big of a booming spell-tossing badass you are spell resistance is going to make around half (on average) your spells fizzle and fail. You'll still WANT spell penetration, but it is the reason I often find myself preparing my morning spell list and thinking, "nope, not even gonna bother with evocation today, just gonna go conjuration."

Conjuration may be weak, but it most often ignores SR. It also had Glitterdust AKA, "greatest spell eva."

Anyways, as for crafting wands the question is, "for what purpose?" The problem with fireball wands and lightning wands is as soon as you level and they don't, they become less useful. Sure you can blast fireball after fireball until you roll a natural 20 and it cuts through SR, but that will take time that would be better spent using your veritable horde of spells (when you actually start taking MT levels) to do thing like buff the party. That said, a wand of cure light wounds is the most effective end-of-battle healer. Higher-level cure wands, while offering less HP per GP, are still useful in a pinch.

7th level feat? Tough call. Craft feats are tasty, Extend spell is a gift that keeps on giving for a long time, not the least of which is the "hour per level" spells that become, "all day or close enough". But Greater spell penetration makes up for your caster level soak completely in terms of SR. ANd whether or not it was wise, you're an evoker, you will be trying to casts the spells what makes the peoples fall down.

If I were stuck with the choice, some dice rolling might be involved.

Also remember that an archivist bard with skills out the wazoo (like spellcraft) can take craft feats (he still has spellcasting, and other people can provide necessary spells in the crafting process).

Howie, I am starting to understand that now. At first level when I took the Spell Focus (evo) I was just like "yeah I have a ton of spells and going to blast everything". I have just realized at 3rd level, that cannot be my role. I need to protect the group and do what I can there. I will have to be limited on the damage output that I can in order to minimize the threat of the baddies for sure.

Everyone, thank you for your insight on these issues. Keep it coming please. Definitely giving me a lot of food for thought.

Okay so these are the feats I think I am taking so far:

5th: Craft Wand
7th: ???
9th: Improved Familiar (faerie dragon to use wands)
11th: ??? (Craft Rod perhaps?)
13th: ???
15th: ???

I am actually almost considering Extend and/or Intensify spell. Good, bad, indifferent?

In this environment, with a melee heavy party and light casting otherwise, I would go on prevent defense. Let the melee guys take out the baddies and wand up. You just prepare against things that they can't handle easily. You don't need to buff them with generic buffs, but you do need aligned weapon available. You don't need to drop a fireball, but you do need dispel magic. Look at removing conditions on your guys, resolving terrain problems, and negating special qualities from the baddies.

Like my buddy said, this DM is out to destroy the party. And rightfully so. That should be the intent of all DM's. However, the magic items and healing is lacking. I am the only one that can really do anything to help prevent the party from dying off completely.

Wands are definitely where it is for long term casting. The more spells I have in wands, the more "other" spells I can prepare on both sides. I need to be as versatile as I possibly can, otherwise, like Devilkiller said, we are smoked.

Somebody really did "have to play" a healer since the DM is rather tough and can't be counted on to throw us any bones. I think the OP has just been getting a little impatient with the rigors of being low level in a very tough game, especially since the MT takes a while to develop. This is compared to being a 15th level archer who does a lot of damage in the other game which alternates with this one.

He wanted to play a blaster mage this time around, and honestly he'll be ok at blasting since he'll only be 1 caster level behind a normal Wizard for 1d6/level stuff. Since it looks like he actually did take Spell Penetration he should be reasonably well set for beating SR too.

Sharing a few key low level wands with party members could definitely make sense as several of us are maxing out UMD, eidolons included. I think that maybe the long term plan for the MT could also involve Craft Rods. This could give him a collection of relatively inexpensive lesser metamagic rods to amp up his many low level spell slots.

A lot of the utility/buff stuff should fill in from the Cleric side without too much effort.

Harrison, those are the stats that I rolled with 3d6+2, and we had to go down the list as is. 18 was the max a stat could be. He gave us a free 18 for a stat as well. Had to put the freebie in INT.

It does blow for range touches, because I cannot touch a blessed thing while they are in combat.

Maybe it's just me, but why put the 15 into STR and not DEX? The DEX offers you more AC and an easier chance to his with ranged touch spells, while STR is only really good for carrying capacity.

Then again, Mystic Theurge has really come off, to me, as the class to go to if your group needs a caster that's pretty damned diverse and Mystic Theurge offers just that. If you plan on being more front-lines, I feel like there are other things you could do that might be more effective.

Yeah my original idea was to be a dwarven wizard. You never see any of those! And I was not going to necessarily be an evoker either. But after people were talking about what classes they were playing, well I thought I'd be a good teammate and do both.

I do not mind it. I just did not know exactly what I was getting into. Never quite thought about dual casting due to the complexity and details. But I am slowly getting the hang of it.

hate to say it but the title kind of makes me cringe. It sounds like you are not playing what you want to play but what you think you have to play.

Yup I figured as much highly regarded. I wasn't planning on using much blasting, but when I did, I just wanted a slightly better chance of getting through things.

Should I take another spell focus or any metamagic feats like extend spell?

Got to agree, here. You'll never be much of a blaster as an MT. Between the spell lists you've got, though, and the number of spells you have available, you can make your party plow through enemies without casting a single blast. Disable your enemies, buff your friends, and let your melee-heavy party feel useful because you made their jobs easier.

Heal them up when it's over and move on!

For a party with no full casters, MT is a good choice, but you'll be using your spells to keep the party going. Blasters are better when you've got good magical support, so a wasted blast isn't such a drain of spell slots.

As you get treasure, most of the wands and scrolls and such will automatically go to you, since you can use just about all of them. Make the party pitch in for consumables.

Oops... was looking at the Faerie Dragon for Improved Familiar. That won't be til like 9th level.

Sounds good Nicos. I do not mind this build, just didn't know exactly what it was until I really read into it.

I definitely do not mind buffing, etc. I actually kind of enjoy it to some extent.

In this campaign, we've been hit with a couple of swarms and I've been the only one to do anything with them due to my burning hands. So it hasn't been all bad. lol

Nicos wrote:

If you can not change you feast there are good spells in evocation just do not focus on damage. Try to focus in things like grasping hands or

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-of-perdition

Sounds good Nicos. I do not mind this build, just didn't know exactly what it was until I really read into it.

I definitely do not mind buffing, etc. I actually kind of enjoy it to some extent.

In this campaign, we've been hit with a couple of swarms and I've been the only one to do anything with them due to my burning hands. So it hasn't been all bad. lol

If you can not change you feast there are good spells in evocation just do not focus on damage. Try to focus in things like grasping hands or

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/chain-of-perdition

No, there will be no retroing. This DM is tough and just out to kill the entire party. LOL. And those are the only two books allowed.

If this info helps, we are playing Second Darkness so there is a lot of SR involved.

I agree with Nicos and if those are feats uve already taken i would talk to the gm and see if u can retro the spell focus and spell pen for somthing else. As a MT you wont be really good at either until 12th level so its best to go support and thats usually in the form of battlefield control and heals/buffs when needed... With that said summon monsters are never bad, so possibly switch spell focus to conjuration and pick up augment summon over spell pen.. Ask about superior summoning from the UC as well.. The create pit spells are great battlefield control, as well as grease, web, sleet storm, slow and later black tentacles. Nice buffs include bless, bulls str, bears endurance, haste etc.. Take a look at Treantmonks guide to the "God Wizard", as he has alot of nice tips. Good luck sir

Alright we have the following for classes:

Monk/Summoner
Barbarian/Summoner
Barbarian
Swashbuckler Rogue
Archivist Bard
Ranger

The two that have taken summoner, took it at 3rd level, and decided on it way after I got suckered into this mess. LOL.

Can you post what classes are in your party?

Its possible to be perform certain roles without needing to multi-class.
For example, certain Oracles can be played like a blaster Sorcerer, while still able to heal.

Also if the Bard is playing a typical, "Buffer" bard, then maybe you could pick a class like the Witch and be the party's Debuffer, weakening the enemies for the kill.

That said, your stats are perfect for the MT. But even with such high stats, like what Nicos have said, being a blaster or debuff spells caster as a MT is bad. You just don't have access to higher level spells compared to a solo-class caster.

Okay, so the group we have, 7 people to be exact, none wanted to be an arcane spellcaster or divine spellcaster. We do have a bard, so that is something.

Anyway, being the good teammate that I am, I decided to multiclass and go MT since we'll need as much help as possible. In this campaign, magic items are not easily attainable (purchasing wise). This is a Pathfinder campaign

Books available: Core and APG

This is what I have so far: Human Wiz 2/Cleric 2

Stats:

Str 15
Dex 12
Con 18
Int 19
Wis 18
Cha 16

Domains: Healing and Fire
Arcane: Specialize in Evocation Oppose: Divination and Enchantment

Feats: Combat Casting, Spell Focus (Evo), Spell Penteration
I do have a familiar instead of a bonded item.

I also have the Magical Knack Trait for Wizard.

So at 5th level, I am taking Craft Wand to help out with the magic issues we have.

After this, I do not know what feats I should consider. Because I am the only major caster, I need to be well-rounded, not great at any one thing but good at them all. Looking at maybe improved familiar and going the pseudo-dragon route due to him able to use scrolls and wands.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Title says it all.

Basically, I want to know if someone places the Fiendish template on a character, does their type change from what they were to outsider and possibly evil?

Trying to figure this out because our DM likes to throw that template on all of the NPC's now to make it more Challenging. I am a Ranger so I would like to know if my favored enemy evil outsider would affect all that has that template.

Thanks everyone!

Freakin' sweet Jason! That's awesome you found us. We need to get him into the yahoo group. As for playing this sunday, I believe it's a blank. So let's see going to the game Nov. 8th. From there we can talk about an extra game sometime soon. I love this campaign so much! Glad Jason came on here to give you all the info. =)

Allen

Fake Healer wrote:

Oh and what level are you guys?

Hey bro,

I'm Jason, the DM of the game in question. It would be great to have you on board! Right now they guys are between 4th and 5th level, but I'm starting newcomers at 3rd... you should catch up pretty quickly. We're using the point-buy system with 28 points to distribute. Starting characters have a limit of 16 on ability scores, unless racial modifiers bump them higher. Also, you get max hit points until your total equals or exceeds 20; then you must roll. I'd prefer if you stuck to basic races and classes (from Players Handbook) but if there's something else you really want to play, let me know and we can discuss it. Any more questions, let me know.

We could more than willing to switch the wednesday's after december. that's no big deal. We usually start around 7 and play till 10/11 @ night usually. =)

Ok this is the schedule as of right now:

November 8th
November 22nd
December 6th
December 20th

That's for the rest of the year. We may have a game session either this upcoming Saturday or Sunday (november 4th/5th). Don't know yet though, need to hear back from a couple of people. We have a yahoo group on the net that keeps us all posted and everything. The group's name is oscarsdream_east. I'll let everyone know about you. We have another person that is thinking about joining so this could be great! Hope it doesn't conflict with your wife's stuff.

Allen

Fake Healer! What's happening dude? You probably don't remember me but we were trying to put a game together about 15 months ago or so. Eric Eslinger, you, and I were talking about doing the Shackled City or whatever. Well anyway, there really aren't any house rules except for binding wounds. He lets the cleric do a DC 15 heal check after a battle. If he succeeds he can heal that person for 1d4 points of damage. That's the only house rule I can think of. Anyway, let me know if you are interested. We are actually talking about meeting up next weekend to play a long session.. If you do not feel like playing a magic character, we are more than happy to accept a martial character. =)

Hey all! My group is looking for players. We play at Days of Knights in Newark Mainstreet. It is a homebrew campaign. We are in desperate need of arcane spellcasters. The DM wants to stay with the core classes unless you talk to him. We meet once every two weeks on Wednesday nights. You can e-mail me at piazza2425@hotmail.com or just to reply on here. We need players bad!

Allen

Once again, another bump

Hello all. I am 21 years old and I'm from Delaware. I am trying to find a group around Delaware that is looking to play the Shackled City Campaign. I began to play it with another group, but decided to move it to another location. Only got to Chapter 2 so I do not know much.

Hopefully someone will contact me. You can e-mail me at piazza2425@hotmail.com

Allen

Bump again

Bump

Piazza2425 wrote:

Hello all. I am 21 years old and I'm from Delaware. I am trying to find a group around Delaware that is looking to play the Shackled City Campaign. I began to play it with another group, but decided to move it to another location. Only got to Chapter 2 so I do not know much.

Hopefully someone will contact me. You can e-mail me at piazza2425@hotmail.com

Allen

Bump

Hello all. I am 21 years old and I'm from Delaware. I am trying to find a group around Delaware that is looking to play the Shackled City Campaign. I began to play it with another group, but decided to move it to another location. Only got to Chapter 2 so I do not know much.

Hopefully someone will contact me. You can e-mail me at piazza2425@hotmail.com

Allen