I'm several sessions into running a Pathfinderised Dark Sun campaign. You can look at my house rules doc here
It's a mix of Athas.org, the Paizo Dragon Magazine attempt at Dark Sun 3.5, some of the original 2e AD&D setting, and my own tweaks. Also borrowed some house rules from Kirthfinder.
With Dreamscarred Press' Psionics Unleashed, Pathfinder GMs can really make a go of Dark Sun.
Would you please point me to the print in the Equipment section that says Brass Knuckles or Gauntlets- or any weapon for that matter- gets Ki Focus for free? Or acts like it has Ki Focus? Or says you can use stunning fist with it?
I mean no sarcasm by that. If you can find it, I truly want to see it. You are trying to give out for free something that costs +1 enhancement bonus to the item. The fact is- the text isn't there. It *is. not. there.*. It isn't there because the weapons do not grant that ability.
I'll bite. Taking your question in the spirit of honest inquiry, here is my response, using text as you suggest. I will not point you to "the print in the Equipment section that says Brass Knuckles or Gauntlets- or any weapon for that matter- gets Ki Focus for free" because such text does not exist and this is not the best way to answer either you or the OP.
You are concerned as to whether BKs grant Ki Focus. They do not. They do not need to.
There is more than one road to Mordor...
Ki Focus is not the only way for Stunning Fist, Ki Strike and Quivering Palm to operate through a weapon; specifically and only the class of weapons listed as unarmed attacks in the Weapons Table. Use of these three abilities with a non-unarmed attack weapon, in general a monk weapon, is not possible unless one purchases the Ki Focus ability.
Ki Focus has a role, it is to empower monk weapons which aren't unarmed attacks to act as if they were unarmed attacks for the special abilities concerned. Note: I am referring to "unarmed attacks", not "unarmed strikes".
(Quivering Palm's wording is ambiguous since it only refers to making an attack, not even an unarmed attack or unarmed strike. However, Ki Focus suggests that Quivering Palm takes place through an "unarmed attack", so we will consider that to be sufficient proof that an "unarmed attack" is needed. I don't agree that a "Palm" should be done with a punch or BK, but we are talking about what the rules say, not about how things should work in the Real World).
Summary
I will explain how unarmed strikes and unarmed attacks are different, but related things. One is a subset of the other.
I will also show that the Stunning Fist feat (for any character, monk or not, who takes it), refers to "unarmed attacks", not "unarmed strikes".
The Ki Strike power refers to "unarmed attacks", not "unarmed strikes".
The Ki Focus weapon ability refers to "unarmed attacks", not "unarmed strikes".
BKs, Gauntlets and unarmed strikes are all classified as "unarmed attacks".
The "unarmed attack" concept, rules and sub-types are the chain that connects all these abilities and weapons together, not "unarmed strike".
My answer in detail:
Glossary of terms
Since the following do not use the exact same sequence and type of letters they are considered to be different terms, referring to different things, though these are related through the rules:
- Unarmed attack
- Unarmed strike
Debate has arisen as to whether these two refer to one and the same thing, just like Mithrandir and Stormcrow refer to Gandalf, or whether they are like Saruman the White and Gandalf the White, where the latter is momentarily confused for the former, but they are in fact two different entities.
The individuality of unarmed attack is further supported by the organisation of the Weapons Table which contains a sub-section entitled "Unarmed Attacks". Under this heading are found three (3) weapons which are: Brass Knuckles, Gauntlet, and Unarmed Strike.
Based on this, an unarmed strike weapon is a distinct entity governed by categorisation as an unarmed attack. It is not unique in this since BKs and Gauntlet are also governed by unarmed attack rules, though in various ways they modify them on the basis of lethal damage.
If I understand James Risner correctly, and with all due respect to his position, then he believes that unarmed strike and unarmed attacks are not disctinct entities. I think he also holds that an unarmed strike is NOT a weapon.
Yet...
Unarmed Attacks rules wrote:
Description: An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. ...
...the rules describe them as a weapon.
If you also believe the same as JR and do not wish to consider an alternative view then there is no point in reading any further.
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One wording that does fuzzy things is that the Gauntlet description says:
Gauntlet description wrote:
Benefit: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.
Since it references both unarmed attack (as the parent category) and unarmed strike (as a thing it modifies), the Gauntlet presents an ambiguous or counter case. It is still a separate entity from an unarmed strike though, and it clearly distinguishes unarmed strike (the weapon) from an unarmed attack (the category and rules). It is the only 'inconsistency' I can find. Let the reader be the judge of what it means. The BK description only refers to "unarmed attack" though.
Conclusion: Given the distinction employed, the Gauntlet description does support unarmed strike and unarmed attack as different things.
Further support: Flurry of Blows description refers to "unarmed strikes" not "unarmed attacks". If it referred to unarmed attacks then Gauntlets could be presumed to be included, however the more restrictive term is used, and this makes sense since Gauntlets aren't monk weapons.
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Unarmed attack - The rules governing unarmed attacks are found in the Combat section. They include "punches", whether these are with bare skin or a hand sheathed in a gauntlet or BK, this section does not say.
Unarmed Attacks rules:
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can't take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).
"Armed" Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character's or creature's unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity).
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character's unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character's unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.
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You will also note that those rules use both the 'unarmed attack' term and the 'unarmed strike' term. Unarmed attack is clearly the parent category in this case, as it likewise on the Weapons Table.
As far as the rules go, "unarmed" does not mean without a weapon (as a weapon is defined in the rules). An unarmed PC is always in possession of the unarmed strike weapon which suffers penalties as outlined in the Unarmed Attacks section. The rules treat punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, elbows, etc. as weapons.
As the rules say, unless you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, an unarmed strike is not lethal unless you take a -4 penalty.
The two non-feat options to make a penalty-free lethal unarmed attack are: 1) to replace your unarmed strike weapon with the brass knuckles weapon, or 2) the gauntlet weapon.
Stunning Fist feat
The basic requirement for a Stunning Fist to work is that your unarmed attack needs to damage your foe. You then force a Fortitude save.
Unarmed Attacks rules:
Stunning Fist (Combat)
You know just where to strike to temporarily stun a foe.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wis modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character can't take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Special: A monk receives Stunning Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
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When I want clarity on what this "unarmed attack" is I go to the Combat and Weapons sections and find three weapons listed there: Brass Knuckles, Gauntlet, and Unarmed Strike.
I conclude that the Stunning Fist feat is applicable provided I damage an opponent using ANY of those three unarmed attack weapons. (I know Gauntlets aren't a monk weapon, but Stunning Fist is not a monk-exclusive feat).
Ki Strike Power
Refers to "unarmed ATTACKS".
Ki strike description:
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness. modifier.
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Ki Focus
Refers to "unarmed ATTACKS". Allows a weapon to count as an unarmed attack for purposes of channelling special ki attacks. (This is also the only time that Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist(for monks) are described as "special ki attacks").
Ki Focus description:
Ki Focus
This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon.
The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder's ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk's ki strike, quivering palm, and the Stunning Fist feat (including any condition that the monk can apply using this feat).
Moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a monk; Price +1 bonus.
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Conclusion: A weapon that is already an "unarmed attack" shouldn't need Ki Focus in order to function with "special ki attacks". It would be redundant.
Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.
ninjaed
+1
Furthermore:
Core Book wrote:
If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
You can throw with two hands if you want, nothing in the game prevents this. Likewise, nothing in the game gives you more than 100% strength bonus for it.
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata.
1 person marked this as a favorite.
As I've addressed it in another post on Amulet of Mighty Blows and Brass Knuckles, according to the RAW, a Brass Knuckle is an Unarmed Attack (see Weapons Table).
A Stunning Fist isn't actually confined to unarmed strikes according to RAW:
Feat description wrote:
"Stunning Fist forces a foe damaged by your unarmed attack..."
Therefore, based on RAW, Stunning Fist can be delivered via unarmed strike, gauntlets, and brass knuckles - the only unarmed attacks in RAW.
If they meant for Stunning Fist to only apply to unarmed strikes then they would have said it, or else it needs to be restrictively errated.
--edit--
Ki Pool description also references "unarmed attacks" for ki strike. The terminology is fairly widespread across monk feats and abilities.
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SigmaX0 wrote:
My argument is that Brass Knuckles are weapons, shown by the fact that they can be enchanted as weapons, the 'Unarmed' equipment section is designed to demonstrate how much space those weapons take up in the wielder's hands, not the type of attack
Disagreement on the section's categorical meaning aside, how do you derive a volumetric ruling from it? It only lists weight and not density.
My observation: That section covers lethality/non-lethality and eligibility of substituting monk unarmed damage. While listing the various weapons that are considered to be Unarmed Attacks.
Unarmed strike description wrote:
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon
If you can show me a RAW definition of 'weapon' that lists an ontological definition of 'weapon' as its capacity to be enchanted, then I will accept your argument. Otherwise, the core definition of weapon is:
Weapon Rules wrote:
"All weapons deal hit point damage." [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons]
Based on existing RAW, you would need to spend a feat to gain Weapon Focus with Brass Knuckles, as presumably you would in order to gain such benefits for both Gauntlet and Spiked Gauntlet. If you want a two-for-one, then I'm afraid its either homebrew or Errata.
--edit--
Also, for what its worth, Brass Knuckles and Unarmed Strike are the only two monk weapons that do not require ki focus in order to deliver Stunning Blow, ki strike and quivering palm.
Ki Focus description wrote:
The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder's ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks.
All other existing monk weapons are not unarmed attacks and so applicable for Ki Focus.
