Eldurian Darkrender's page

Might want to delete one of these double-posts...

Done.

Another Day as an Adventurer - Keep an eye out for arrows and guard your knees!

Wow! I just found a new area! There's 15 new quests, and I can unlock even more by doing those! Of course it's really the same five basic tasks with minor variations, given with blocks of text that are meant to make them seem interesting but at boring themselves. Time to grind this out and claim my rewards!

I think we've all been there, and none of us are particularly eager to see this in PFO. So how can we make it more interesting?

Ahk! There's Too Many of Them! We're Surrounded! - You need apples for a pie? Sounds like a quest!

I think the biggest problem with questing in MMOs is that everything is a quest. MMO developers are struggling to find stories to make all these quests seem relavent when they should be asking, "Does this even need to be a quest?", "Will anyone actually find this fun?"

Rather than hundreds of quests telling you to kill different monster types what if there were bounty boards advertising what needs killing and magistrates paying for their heads? What if instead of quests asking you to recover items the vendors in the market would just advertise they are buying certain things? Not only does this cut out the need for a ridiculous storyline, but it makes it easier for things to adapt with the changing escalation cycles, and for players to post up their own bounties and item requests.

What if instead of a camp outside of every dungeon with a bunch of quest giver screaming "Please kill Lord Gotye, he kicked my monkey and used my goat!" there was just a dungeon sitting there filled with dangers and rewards?

In Search of A Quest - Will quest for food!

So if all the tedious tasks aren't quests, what kind of quests should there be?

Long and interesting storyline quests, with recurring characters, plot twists, and voice actors. These should be the only quests we ever encouter, and there shouldn't be a great deal of them. But these kinds of quests are Pathfinder! Think of them as mini-adventure paths set into the greater world of Pathfinder Online.

No the developers can't supply is with enough of these quests to keep us constantly occupied but that's never been the point of this game. If they add and expand the epic quest arcs here and there it will just allow us to taste the great storytelling of the Pathfinder brand in the same world loaded with great player driven content.

If one believes the universe is inherently just, governed by some being or force that balances the equations for us, then it's easy to assume the unfortunate deserve their misfortune. Next thing, you might find yourself agreeing with Pat Robertson in blaming natural disasters on people powerless to cause or divert them, just as economic disasters are being blamed on those with the least power to influence the situation.

I hate to bring religion into this but your slander of Christianity is so far off base something needed to be said.

There is an entire book of the Bible in which one of the main ideas taught is that calamities that befall you do not indicate God's displeasure. It's called Job. The basic summary is that there was a very righteous and faithful man named Job. Satan claimed that Job only loved God because God had blessed him. God then allowed Satan to inflict misery and suffering on Job. A lot of it. Job remained faithful and in the end was blessed.

During the book of Job his friends do the same thing Pat Roberson did and blame him. They aren't portrayed positively.

Im going to go out on a limb here and say that most Christians take the word of the Bible over Pat Robertson. Lets not pretend that just because the biggest idiot in a group says something that everyone agrees with them.

How many more milestones before we get the pit fighter program?

@Andius and Xeen

Pvp will be the ultimate arbiter of disagreement. I can't wait to watch you two go at it!

If you give me your sizes now, I will have replacement gear ready whenever you need it. ;)

Do you do resizing as well? Or just save yourself some time and leave some extra space in the groin area on their gear.

1. A very basic combat system, that is simple / fun.
2. A very basic crafting / economy system we can use to outfit ourselves with basic gear.
3. Enough skills to train to keep us occupied until more are released.
4. Some very basic PVE content.
5. Some very basic motivations to PVP.

If I'm paying "Tony" to Assassinate someone, I want "Tony" to be holding the knife as it goes into my target's back.

But that may just be me...

It would be easy to make that distinguishable by the person setting the contract so that good folk such as yourself can limit themselves to second rate assassins.

I think middlemen are the best solution. You allow a well known reputable assassin representative to pass on the contracts they are given to the assassins working with them.

That allows the person submitting the contract to know they are working with someone who has a good business reputation, and protects the identity of the assassins.

Kwizzy wrote:

So... Where's my male paladin with an accentuated, phallic codpiece? After all, I need to know he takes pride in his manhood. And what about beards? While we're talking idealized secondary sex characteristics, there needs to be much more beards.

... I think breasts are low on the list of things that make me feel awesome as a female...

The irony of the situation made me giggle a bit. Not mocking you, Kwizzy; I'm just imagining women complaining about their characters' armor showing breast shape and men boasting about who has the biggest cod piece.

That's not a codpiece. Some of us have no need to accentuate what's already there.

Anyone else notice how the end clip seemed to be a first person view of the player getting knocked down? Hint at a viable first person perspective?

Pit-Fighter tool hopefully in this Q3 or Q4. :)

I remember a brief mention of something like that. Like a tool for us to try out the combat system before early enrollment. Did they mention if that is vs. monsters, players, or both?

@Eldurian

Would you have that apply to metals?

Yes I would actually. Steel is much better than most metals for weapons and armor but that doesn't mean it's a "better" metal. What are we going to make bells, lamps, jewelry, anchors, etc. from?

There is plenty of uses for copper, bronze, brass, lead, gold, silver, etc. where they are preferable to steel.

This is evident in the fact that all of those metals continue to be used in the modern world.

I don't like the idea of tiers of resources. Like in your example. Which is better, bear or rabbit fur?

Well if I'm making a pair of gloves and I want my hands to still be nimble/comfortable, then I want rabbit fur gloves.

If I'm making a coat that I want to be warm and to offer protection, bear would be much better.

Don't separate items as inferior/superior. Just make them different.

Rogue without a doubt. Looking at the blogs on crafting and architecture it seems like many crafting activities are set and forget type things. I'll probably dedicated my destiny's twin toward those types of activities to just generate money for my main.

@ Eldurian Darkrender I know well your nature to play around at being and saying you are whom you are not.

Your words wound deeply. I really am a wealthy heir to a distant throne who rescues puppies and kittens in between meditating on how to end poverty and bring about world peace. I am simply in these lands to spread the good will of the throne of Tihs-Llub and find a princess worthy of taking home to my father's kingdom.

I can find many a tavern maid who will back up my word.

Star Wars: The Old Republic's decision to radically re-envision the storytelling process was a reasonable one. There's something terribly unsatisfying about reading quest text, and there's something even more unsatisfying about not really remembering what I've accomplished when I complete a slew of quests in an area. I applaud them for trying to find a new model that works, and I feel for them that they failed.

I'm rather hopeful that the paucity of quests in PFO means that they're much better written, and more engaging. I'd much rather have a single quest that required me to kill the final boss in four separate dungeons - which required me to kill a number of mini-bosses in those dungeons in order to reach the final boss, than to do a half-dozen quests in each of those four dungeons that I hardly remember when I'm done.

You know that's actually a really great point. Part of the problem with the quest systems of most MMO's is we are handed a page of dry text about an uninteresting job we have to accomplish, and this is done dozens of times in each zone.

Having those quests voiced and attached to a moral decision made this system much more interesting, but the novelty did wear off a bit after a certain point.

But if questing consisted of a major task, or many, many such minor tasks all rolled into a single mission, then that would be a huge step toward making the whole system more bareable. After all, in Pathfinder your quest is generally to slay the bandit chief. Not a bunch of separate quests to kill goblin warriors, kill goblin shamans, burn goblin banners, snap goblin spears, poison the goblin's water supply, recover 15 goblin idols, burn 10 crates of goblin supplies etc.

The solution really could be making quests intended to take 30 minutes to 3 hours instead of about 5 minutes a quest. I would still like for those quests to be voiced at some point in the future, but quest length and scope actually sounds like the more important side of a good two sided approach to the problem.

There's some amount of audio that's in the minimum viable product.

Agreed. I don't think we need anything too extreme upon release, but if my character is entirely silent all the time, that's just crazy.

Eventually though, if there are quests I hope they are voiced. Text quests just seem so dry after having played SWTOR and GW2. I would imagine this actually wouldn't be a huge undertaken as opposed to SWTOR where there were five billion quests hiding under every rock.

I like this Wild Alliance... (as I will be calling it)

I feel that Hungry Hungry Hobos has a much better ring to it.

Given there are no active topics I'm finding all that interesting at the moment I decided to come up with something that would spark a heated debate. This is the best I could come up with in a few moments.

How much voice acting should we see? Random character grunts? Fully voiced quests? Character voice themes like in Neverwinter Nights?

Round 1... fight! I mean discuss...

...establishing next to a viable kingdom planning neighbor is asking to get in bed or get smashed

The Situation: Lumbering giants are forming. Between these giants and their allies, there will be little room left for the free spirited and the career felon. There is a need for a settlement that caters to the problems of pesky pursuit, loot disposal, training in unsavory skills, and even item storage for the villainous.

The Pitch: Brothers and Sisters! We are the Outcasts, the Misunderstood, the Mistreated, the Hated, and the Hunted. There is no safe place for Us. Why must we haunt the wild lands, forever without safety, shelter, and warmth?Come with me my People. We will make Our own place in the world. A place with high strong walls and few laws. Come with me and build a place to hang your hat after a long day of banditry, assassination, and mayhem.

It seems the main intent of this settlement is to establish itself somewhere we can find refuge from a world who despises us. This isn't our forward base, it's our last line of defense, and while it needs access to training facilities and resources it does not need to be near our enemies. This is is our Tortuga, this is our rebel base.

Tortuga was established in the Caribean rather than Europe for a good reason.

We don't want to move our den closer to the bloodhounds just to get easier access to the chickens. Not everyone with an underworld connection is a bandit and Acheron is meant to be for all of us.

What we don't know is if Andius is as big of a deal as he is making himself out to be. Not too long ago I was being told his group was defunct. Whether or not he's actually the big bear on release (And personally I'm betting on PAX over his group) remains to be seen.

All we can do is speculate at this point but if he really does turn out to be the big bear we should keep our distance unless we want to end up in bed with him.

Bear in mind though, I'll probably have a foot in both worlds to increase my client base anyway.

I see that. The discussion on it is quite a mess based off what I've seen at a quick glance. Thank you for providing the needed information via PM.

Hate to side track the topic but what is the Treaty of Rovagug?

Gentlemen, you are forgetting or not aware, if that settlement is at war and those mercenaries were hired and chartered by the enemy settlement, there will be no alignment or reputation consequences for even continuous slaughter of war targets.

I certainly haven't forgotten that but not everyone coming to / leaving the hex is a member of the settlement, and therefore may not be a war target.

SADs could work to some degree but that is only if:

1. A SAD allows you to strip the target entirely of all possessions.
2. The only services non-settlement members can render require the transportation of goods.

I would imagine that players based in a settlement would benefit that settlement and it's economy by questing, fighting NPCs, gathering resources, etc. in the surrounding area.

Therefore it would've greatly beneficial for an enemy settlement to have mercenaries indiscriminately slaughter everyone, of every affiliation (with the exception of fellow invaders) in that hex.

This gives mean idea for a permanent death system for the entire game, a character that chooses this and dies, will allow the player to make a new character at theexact same level with equal XP and equal value of gear. Paid for items from a cash shop would either be transferred to the new character, to another character or replaced with an equal value item that is more suited to the new character.

It would basically be like death in the Pen&Paper game.

Don't you lose a level when you die in the tabletop version? This idea would basically be handing people free respecs with each death unless a considerable amount of XP was lost.

See, in order to effectively destroy the economy of a settlement, the mercenaries would want to destroy everyone coming to and leaving that hex, and of course everyone questing, crafting, etc. inside of it. Not just members of the settlement itself.

This could be made part of some kind of siege mechanic though. A traditional siege is actually cutting off supplies to a city, so they could make a mechanic were you can kill all players within an enemy hex at no reputation loss via some kind of siege mechanic.

This is very sidetracked from the original topic though.

@Anathema- I was unaware allowing individuals of low reputation into a settlement had adverse effects. Knowing that, your position is very logical, and I would urge you to stick by it.

The bolded makes no sense to me. It needs clarification. It would seem that if a mercenary's work is not measured by the reputation mechanic then it will not lower his reputation score. He will have nothing to worry over from Acheron.

But is his reason to kill being measured? That's what I meant to say. For instance, say a band of mercenaries is hired to stop the flow of traffic to and from a specific settlement for the purpose of destroying their economy.

To the reputation system, this could very well be registered as random slaughter, and lower the reputation of the mercenaries involved considerably. I would hope these mercenaries would not be turned out of Acheron for doing their job.

Again, it likely won't greatly effect me in any case, and I'm not trying to attack your idea. This settlement is a pretty solid plan.

Just bringing up perceived problems so they can be addressed.

Eldurian Darkrender. We see ganking as superior numbers murdering lesser numbers. Often without warning but always with reason. Ganking/PVP by the rules should not lower reputation much at all.

As for griefing, that is left to be defined by GW in the end. We see it as repeated PVP or verbal abuse for no gain.

Stop by for a beer. We can debate this.

Until we have tested the reputation mechanic and seen how it works, I don't see much reason to debate this.

Your stance seems reasonable as long as you aren't screening out mercenaries and such who have a reason to kill that just isn't being measured by the reputation mechanic.

I am doubtful any of this will be a concern to me. My main problem in your town will be crossing paths will those who may not appreciate all my... entrepreneurial ventures.

Ill be honest, with mostly Chaotic alignments, you should openly embrace players with low reputation, it almost seems required for those alignments.

Yeah, here is what makes no sense to me.

Preferred Membership: CE, NE, and CN. Be they Companies of bandits or mercenaries, crafter's, merchants, adventurers, assassins and spies, gankers, or lone wolves. We welcome you all. Players with low Reputation or a penchant for Griefing, need not apply nor expect to live overly long.

Isn't low reputation earned by ganking people? This statement needs a lot of clarification. What is a ganker, and what do you mean by griefing?

Nihimon wrote:

I seriously doubt Ryan would ever allow you to transfer even unspent XP to another character, much less the XP you've already spent.

In fact, I doubt it so much I'm willing to go on the record with a formal prediction: Ain't ever gonna happen.

Then this idea is dead in the water. No one would ever agree to through real world money down the drain, perhaps thousands of dollars for the sake of role playing. Not to mention the hundreds of potential dollars you may have spent on per character add-ons, that will also be lost.

I think both assessments are correct.

1. That will never happen. That's called a character respec and it's actually a beneficial effect.
2. This idea is dead in the water.

The closest thing to this idea that could really get off the ground is a duel to the death that requires mutual consent, or perma-death in exchange for power like a pre-NGE SWG Jedi.

Tis the season to get out and do stuff. I'm most likely going to miss the next few sessions anyway.

Fortunately/Unfortunately the server you play on is my old stomping grounds. I could create an alt to play with you guys until you are near my level (level 31), but that sounds too much like honest work to me, and I would rather be chasing lasses, livening up taverns, and employing my talents.

In the meantime I could throw some coins your way if you are looking to acquire a kinship hall, and I do have some talent with a needle as closely as that may resemble honest work, I can still get you guys outfitted. It's a funny story that...

I was out for some fresh air, hanging off the side of a nobelman's manor one night when I decided to be sociable and go inside for a chat. But got a tear in my finest trousers slipping through the window. Well once I was inside things got even worse. I met a merry little lass with a sparkly green eyes and hair as red as fire. And somehow in the process of talking to her about the values of chasity my shirt got torn off. Obviously I needed to go find a new shirt, so I set out to do so promptly... the next morning. Some of her father's guards saw me as I was demonstrating how to repel out of her window. They apparently thought I would be a good sparring partner so I taught them a few moves. After a particularly spectacular demonstration of how to dismount a charging lancer I decided to borrow his horse for a morning ride while his friend debated with me about taking my coat as collateral. Well about 50 paces later at a good gallop I convinced his friend that wasn't nessacary with a reassuring close fisted pat on his nose. He let go but the darn brute tore it in the process.

I had a midafternoon appointment inspecting mattress durability with one of the maids at a nearby inn but I almost had to cancel because apparently the doorman didn't like the state of my attire, or was it my unfortunate resembance to the man the local lord was hunting?

Anyhow, that is when I learned to sow. Later that night they found the doorman in his small clothes, bound, gagged, and sewn into a sack with the top sewn shut. And the maid was ended up tearing my clothes that looked much like the doorman's

Mind you I'm not pushing this idea but if you were to do it, you would want a timer before the target actually becomes vulnerable.

Two other issues that would have to be solved is:

-What if one character stops logging in?
-How do you make sure people don't just do this with throw away alts?

What does the player initiating this have to sacrifice other than a cooldown?

If any kind of permanent death system was made, I prefer it to be cursing yourself with the ability to die in exchange for great power. Or at least something where you are vulnerable to permanent death until one of you dies.

Actually the first half dozen posts did just that, but you were too dead set on hating the game that you could not see it clearly. Instead you decided to post a rant where you fabricated criticism of your view and tried to paint us with that brush. Problem is, none of us approached you with those attacks in our words.

Now we are to accept that a PM has miraculously altered your hatred for games?

I remain skeptical of this conversion. I predict it will only be a matter of time before something else will turn the warm and fuzzies back to putrid hatred of PFO.

I also remain skeptical because the OP does not bear any responsibility for his / her misconceptions or mischaracterizations of the game or of this community. It was OUR fault, that his false and preconceived notions were not assuaged.

The PM fixed all of this... I say, poppycock!

*COUGH* *COUGH* AHAHAHAHA... *COUGH* OHOHO! *COUGH* Oh Pharasma it's too much! *COUGH* Ha... ha... ha... *Wipes tears from his eyes*

Now tell us old man, what's really bothering you?

Hogrim - hobs -dwarf hunter

Hebeing - being - hobbit guardian
Hargun - pagan - dwarf minstrel
Molarae - harad - human hunter
Bluddwolf - bluddwolf - human warden
Khary - Deianira - human champion

Levels?

Your same logic could be applied to poison counters / getting milled in Magic. Or for that matter ability damage in Pathfinder. Your health is irrelevant in both those systems as they are an alternate means of victory.

When you think of yourself as "winning" because you are at 20 health, even though you are one poison counter from death, have a single card left in your deck, or have an ability score of 1, you are approaching it from the entirely wrong mindset.

When you are at 125+ peace rating, you have lost a different kind of fight, and your opponent enjoys an alternate victory. You had every chance to kill them before you reached that point, but you lost, fair and square.

I realize you are very set in your ways, but just because you can't wrap your mind around this system doesn't mean it's overpowered.

Under what circumstances, other than the 125 peace rating, are required to carry out this "instant kill" ability. I say "instant kill" because you equated Go in Peace to a character death.

Can you effectively remove a fighter with 90% health, for 10 minutes (using your numbers), with just having met with the 125 peace rating?

@ Bringslite, yeah I know I keep getting drawn in. Leaving for beach and pool now, so I will be back In a few hours....

The 125+ peace rating is condition enough. Raising their peace rating to 125+ is about as hard as lowering someones health to 0. It's less of an instant kill and more a coup de grace.

Yes. You can remove a fighter at any amount of health from combat with yourself and other VoP players for 10 minutes. In fact it's easiest to do this on players with 100% health as the more damage you have on you, the faster you lose peace rating.

How would defensive pacifism be worse than offensive pacifism as proposed, given that defensive pacifism manifests as a timed effect on a target that reduces the effectiveness of attacks against that target, but poofs away if the target performs a combat action, enters a hostile area, refuses a Stand And Deliver demand, or otherwise gains an "involved" or similar flag?

Unless I missed it you didn't list anything about the refusing a Stand And Deliver demand before. In that case it's not OP, it's just useless, as anyone who sees it on you will just prompt you to Stand and Deliver.

Well except in the case of players that wouldn't get an alignment penalty for attacking your normally. If it protects you from them it's OP, and if it doesn't... again... it's useless.

From my understanding of what you have slowly revealed, but maybe I still have it wrong, the Peace Rating increases:

1. When the caster is being attacked, each additional attack increases his peace rating making it more possible for him to cast the "Go in Peace" spell.

2. When the attacker continues to attack, each attack increases his peace rating, making him more vulnerable to the "Go in Peace" spell.

Wait.... where are you getting this?

When the caster is attacked, if they have peace rating on them at all, it is lowered. Of course this doesn't matter for a VoP caster as they effectively have a 100+ peace rating penalty 100% of the time. Peace rating gives penalties to aggression. There are no beneficial effects from having it on you

When an attacker attacks, it doesn't affect his peace rating at all, unless perhaps he's using attacks that sacrifice health, in which case his peace rating is lowered.

When the caster uses abilities that increase the attackers peace rating, the attackers peace rating is raised.

When the attacker takes damage, is targeted by abilities that lower their peace rating, and as time passes, their peace rating is lowered. All these lowering effects are further increased if they are in a barbarian rage.

When the attacker is at 125+ peace rating, then the caster has the option to effectively finish them off, with a "Go in Peace" ability. But only if the have VoP. And that ability only blocks them from attacking VoP characters.

You guys must be bored. Block after block of text over a system that has a non existent chance of being included in this game.

There are already simpler, trusted and true abilities in PFRGP that could do much the same but are balanced.

Almost nothing from the magic system from the Pathfinder RPG is balanced in a non-turn based PVP oriented MMORPG.

If the majority of spells and even the magic system from Pathfinder are not entirely redesigned for the release in PFO, this game will be unplayable.

Same goes for the skill system. If diplomacy from the tabletop is ported directly over to the MMO, it will be useless.

Your reading is not so good..... "I'll hone in on just one issue, duration of effect".... Perhaps it is not your reading, its your desire not to address the most important counter points.

Fine. I guess I'm not doing anything important anyway.

1. Affect must be comparable in strength to other skills or feats
2. Duration must also be comparable

This is a fairly unique system. It's a debuff that takes time and effort to apply and maintain, never fully locks the character down, and is quickly broken if the target is not near 100% health. It's most easily compared to damage, but not fully comparable to anything.

Why should it need to be? Are you against trying something new?

3. Range of use must be set at touch, or a preset range that must be maintained

Just like a martial character has a variety of ability with different ranges and areas of effect, so do these abilities. It's not just one "Boom! You can't fight!" type ability. Any more than attack is a "Boom! You're dead!" ability. As I've spelled out in great detail throughout this topic.

What is your reason for wanting to maintain a preset range?

4. There must be a counter measure to prevent it

There are just as many counter measures to prevent it as there are to prevent damage. Will saves in place of AR. Silence, stun, and other effects that can prevent it from being used. As I already stated earlier in this topic.

5. There must be a counter measure to break it

Damage, taskmaster abilities, barbarian rage, simply letting the timer wear off. There are a great deal of ways to break it, as I've spelled out for you many times.

Unless you are talking about the "Go in peace" ability. There is no breaking the "Go in peace" ability because it is essentially a death penalty with the intention of allowing the player who used it to carry on about their day without you continuing to attack them. Just as if they had killed you.

6. There must be a cool down before it can be used again

Abilities will have cool downs just as if they were attack abilities. Though most of the shorter cooldown abilities will be exclusive to VoP characters as regular characters are not intended to be able to keep you in a pacified state for very long. They are the burst DPS of peace rating where VoP are the sustained DPS. Or more accurately, Peace Per Second. As usual, I've already answered this question for you earlier on in the topic.

As far as the "Go in peace" ability. A VoP character can't affect your peace rating during the same timer that prevents you from damaging them. And they of course can't use harmful effects on you ever. Once you can attack them again, they can pacify you again. Just like if someone kills you, and you come back, they can kill you again.

7. For PFO purposes, there must be a consequence for it failing

Same penalty as a failed attack. The ability and time used to activate it are wasted. You've already asked this question before, and I've already given you that answer.

Why do you feel more is needed?

8. For PFO purposes, there must be a severe penalty if you violate it

Violate what? The vow? A cooldown (I would advocate for real life months) before you can take it again. Having to redo anything required to initially take the vow, and possibly a penance. Or course I already said this all in the OP.

Edit: So every single one of your points has already been addressed. Most of them in the OP and in posts that were direct replies to your questions. Unless you can stop making me repeat myself, I think we're done here. It's not really important to me that you support this idea, and the answers you're seeking are already here for the literate. A group you may want to consider joining. Or perhaps you're just getting forgetful in your old age?

So let us try this exercise. Walk us through an encounter with one character using your VOP vs. a Fighter. Assume this is a 10 round fight, 60 seconds. Run the scenario twice, one in which the VoP succeeds in the first round, and one where it fails in the first round.

Do you realize how much number crunching you are asking me to do? I would have to calculate the attack penalties, for each step of the peace rating system, the curve that makes it harder to raise peace rating as it gets higher, etc. This would take at least an hour or two to complete, and I really don't think you would get much from it anyway. You obviously haven't gotten much from anything else I've written.

@Bluddwolf. Have you considered purchasing reading glasses? They might really help you out in this situation.

Most of the points you are raising have already been addressed. I'm not going to go down your whole long list because most of it is just unreasonable demands that would gimp it beyond any usefulness.

1. Affect must be comparable in strength to other skills or feats.

The effect is more powerful than your average 3 second stun ability, but your average 3 second stun ability is an instant with a 30 second cooldown. In order to get the more impressive effects from peace rating you are have to dedicate a decent bit of your build to it, and a decent bit of time actually applying the desired effects. Not just kicking them in their soft bits on the way by. Otherwise it's just a light attack duration debuff that breaks after a bit of damage.

The only other crowd control system I've seen that is similar to this is the ECM system from EVE, which is actually far more powerful (Near complete character shutdown and not broken by damage.)

If you want to actually use it to remove someone from a fight, then you have to dedicate your character to that purpose, and you can't even effectively use it on a target who your allies are trying to kill as one of you will negate the other (Given VOP's best peace rating abilities are attached to healing effects and defensive buffs.)

Comparing it with other crowd control abilities isn't really fair in this scenario. You have to compare it with things that can kill you. As I said, it's slightly stronger but less harsh on you, and doesn't give them any loot.

In other words, switch the pacifying abilities for a sword, it takes a slightly shorter time to pacify you, then it would to kill you outright. Assuming you don't have high resistances or good counters to this ability. I feel this is pretty balanced.

I'm not sure what your fixation about alignment is, but you may want to see a therapist. As I said peace rating abilities and VoP are not restricted by alignment.

Eldurian Darkrender,

I think the glory of your words has made everything quite clear.

See! I knew you just hadn't soaked up quite enough of their glory yet. Glad I could help. ;)

Round house ki-ck

@Short Stuff

(Notice, I don't use your actual name.)

I felt the need to quote myself because I thought if you basked in the glory of my words a few moments it might enlighten you to the truths you are obviously failing to see.

You are comparing apples and oranges by quoting the tabletop rules for diplomacy. The tabletop focuses on a group of player going out and facing the world together. A world made up entirely of NPCs. A diplomacy skill that only works on NPCs is super useful there because everyone who isn't an NPC, is your ally. If the people in the party with the highest diplomacy could always get their way whenever the party had a debate, it wouldn't be any fun for anyone else.

This is Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game where PVP is one of the most major features. A diplomacy skill that has no effect on players... isn't all that useful here. Entirely gimping some beloved roles like the charismatic paladin or the smooth talking rogue in one of the most major areas of the game.

Now lets ask a few questions. When your character takes a "fear" effect that gives them penalties. Are you afraid as a player? When you take a "sickened" effect, do you puke all over your keyboard? When you take a bleeding effect, do you have to wash the bloodstains out of your chair? When you get a "confused" effect, are you confused? (Well... more confused than normal that is.)

So why is it so hard for you to grasp that your character should be able to be pacified without you, the player, being pacified? Is taking penalties for being afraid somehow less damaging to your ego than the idea your character can be guilt tripped by some guy saying you shouldn't attack him? Roleplay with it! If you want a character that has an extremely strong mental resolve and cannot be swayed from their path by any means. Stack the hell out of your will save. Otherwise good roleplay means acting like you have been persuaded, just like you have to act afraid when you fail your save on a fear effect.

But all that aside, you seem to have a very skewed opinion of what a pacifist is:

Pacifist: Someone opposed to violence as a means of settling disputes

Doesn't say you have to be a nice guy. Doesn't say you can't pick someone's pocket. Doesn't say you can't call your neighbor a mean old hag. Doesn't say you can't overtax the peasant population. Doesn't even say you can't use compulsion.

Notice I never talked about an alignment restriction for VoP, and neither does the source I took the idea from.

Your ideals you feel a pacifist should follow are irrelevant. Your definition of aggression is irrelevant. If all I'm doing is using words to cause you to stop attacking me, unless those words are "FUS RO DAH!!!" it doesn't really matter if I'm convincing you politely, using some magic chant that forces you to throw down your weapon, or saying mean things about your mommy until you are crying too hard to hold a blade straight, it's not violence. It's something a pacifist could do.

The key word in what you presented, in my opinion, was "creatures". Regardless of how you try to rationalize or justify the merits if your proposed system, as a game mechanic, forcing players to lose control of their characters is typically avoided.

I think you are blowing what I'm suggesting seriously out of proportion. I would define "losing control of your character" as a system where you are forced to just sit there and watch your character. For instance in games that allow you to mind control opponents and throw them off a cliff, or stun/daze type abilities that leave your character just sitting there in a stupor unable to respond.

It is partially my distaste for such systems that drives my desire to see alternate forms of crowd control implemented.

When fully pacified, you can move and use any non violent abilities such as healing, defensive buffs, speed buffs etc. normally. That leaves your character the option to retreat or even to continue trying to assist your allies. Not sitting there staring at the screen going "I can't even do anything!!!"

The most ridiculous example is EVE Online's electronic counter measures that break your lock on your target and leave you unable to target again for their duration. Using a powerful ECM ship such as the Scorpion battleship, you can effectively lock your opponent out of a fight as it blocks all targeted abilities (everything except drones, and 2 kinds of weapons that are almost never used) including repairing/buffing allies and your own electronic warfare (crowd control) abilities.

The great thing about the peace rating system is it is a similarly powerful system but it doesn't leave your opponent helpless and unable to respond. VoP characters can be meaningful crowd control without the rage inducing helplessness common in other titles that have crowd control characters.

Unless I have misread the premise (which I could be guilty of), this ability to pacify an attacker removes or adds a barrier to his/her intent.

I do think there is a possibility there might be a similar hindrance to combat through some crowd control. Those magical misdirects I would hope would be a short time based debuff similar to stuns and mesmerizations.

If your pacification system is intended to do much the same, then I redact my statement. I would say additional systems would be unnecessary, but it would not be taking away the ability for criminals to be criminals (for example)

Any system that works outside of a small window of game time, with a longer cool down (often used in MMO's to control the battlefield in key moments), seems restrictive.

For most characters who take diplomacy and a few peace rating skills it's a shortish duration effect. Longer duration than a stun but only about 20 seconds or so if your opponent is at full health and nobody tries to break them out of it. They do still suffer the penalties of going back down the peace rating system after this, but this is balanced as it takes a bit of effort and multiple abilities or multiple characters working together to get them up that high. And of course at no point in the peace rating system is the character left entirely helpless, in contrast to things like stun effects.

For VoP it is a long duration effect. So is death. Unless the player you are facing is being driven by a taskmaster, in a barbarian rage, has a super high will save and low health etc. it's slightly easier for a VoP character to drive someone over 125 peace rating / "Go in peace" them, then to kill them. But not much easier, and they suffer no death penalties / can't be looted / don't have to recover their body. In fact after their peace rating falls back down below 100 they are free to attack characters who haven't taken Vow of Pacifism.

Thinking about the implications of that mechanic it might also be prudent to add that a VoP character can't use any more peace rating abilities on them during the duration of the "Go in Peace" effect (10 minutes.)

The important thing to remember with the VoP mechanic is that it is an alternative to killing people. There is still a fight that takes place, and the criminals you are concerned about it harming, are no more helpless against it than they are against a blade.

@Qiang.

Actually you are incredibly wrong. From the Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace:

This sacred vow grants significant supernatural benefits, but its cost is high. First, you are constantly surrounded by a calming aura to a radius of 20 feet. Creatures within the aura must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your Cha modifier) or be affected as by the calm emotions spell. Creatures who leave the aura and reenter it receive new saving throws. A creature that makes a successful saving throw and remains in the aura is unaffected until it leaves the aura and reenters. The aura is a mind-affecting, supernatural compulsion. Second, you gain a +2 natural armor bonus to your AC, a +2 deflection bonus to your AC, and a +2 exalted bonus to your AC. This exalted bonus does not apply to touch attacks and does not hinder incorporeal touch attacks. Brilliant energy weapons, however, do not ignore it. It does not stack with an armor bonus. If you also have the Vow of Poverty feat, the natural armor, deflection, and exalted Armor Class bonuses granted by that feat all increase by +2. If a creature strikes you with a manufactured weapon, the weapon must immediately make a successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + one-half your character level + your Con modifier) or shatter against your skin, leaving you unharmed. Finally, you gain a +4 exalted bonus on all Diplomacy checks.

That format doesn't screw around, it uses strait up compulsion. I'm simply suggesting diplomacy work against the character's resolve instead of the player's.

@Short-guy

I think the the problem here is a disconnect between metagame and in-character perspective.

Anyone saying this system "forces" people toward pacifism is viewing it from a metagame perspective.

From an in-character perspective they are being calmed and persuaded. This isn't compulsion, this is your character persuading them to stop attacking you. As they begin to question their actions they become less effective at combat. Damage breaks them out of it because it's hard to stay in a peaceful state of mind while you are getting sliced open.

It is completely within the realm of pacifists to convince other people to give up violence. Why would someone give up violence themselves if they don't feel those values are worth preaching?

Anyone who refuses to harm others is a pacifist. My suggestion is defensive, you jus defend yourself through persuasion and instead of dodging/enduring attacks.

Also I hope the comment about redirecting attacks wasn't aimed at me. I agree it isn't pacifism and wasn't the one pushing it.

If you want to play a defensive style pacifist, then play a defensive pacifist. Just because you have the option to increase their peace rating doesn't mean you have to use it.

However I find it very unlikely that there will be a role that will allow you defeat your opponents using their own damage. It would be far too powerful in the hands of someone who isn't opposed to mixing in a few offensive abilities.

Unless perhaps it was added as a different path opened up by the Vow of Pacifism. ;)

Edit: Or added as a separate Vow of Non-Aggression. I disagree that your character is a true pacifist. You are using their attacks to harm them. Intentionally harming someone isn't pacifism even if you are just redirecting their own aggression.

Perhaps you would be interested in looking at where I drew the basis of a Vow of Pacifism:

Sacred Vows

In that format it kind of combines higher diplomacy with higher defense.

You could do that from a metagame or in character sense. You could promote the ethics of non violence through chat, or give them monetary reasons to cease aggression. Either alternative will succeed or fail on it's own perceived value.

I don't see the need to translate it into a mechanic, and agree that the inclusion of it could hinder play styles.

Please elaborate on your statement. Which playstyles is it hindering and how?

In my view pacifism is an internal belief system, it can not be forced upon another. I intend to play a pacifist Monk type character, of LG (core alignment) and likely a LN to NG (active alingment).

My pacifism is internal, I will follow it as often as possible. If the are skills that makes me more difficult to hit or if I can train skills that will hinder my opponent's attacks, I will. In Pathfinder RPG, the Flowing Monk would have represented by preferred character clas the best. If the are skills that I can train, that turns my opponents attacks back at himself, then those would b the only offensive capabilities that I would use on a regular basis.

Hopefully with my evasion skills, defensive skills and abilities to turn attack back at my opponents, they would stop their attack. If on the other hand, if I fall to their attacks, at least I hleld true to my pacifist beliefs.

I think the the problem here is a disconnect between metagame and in-character perspective.

Anyone saying this system "forces" people toward pacifism is viewing it from a metagame perspective.

From an in-character perspective they are being calmed and persuaded. This isn't compulsion, this is your character persuading them to stop attacking you. As they begin to question their actions they become less effective at combat. Damage breaks them out of it because it's hard to stay in a peaceful state of mind while you are getting sliced open.

It is completely within the realm of pacifists to convince other people to give up violence. Why would someone give up violence themselves if they don't feel those values are worth preaching?