As someone who regularly plays an alchemist I'd love to give the GM more ways to mess with my setup.
No seriously.
I'm not exactly sure what kind of game alot of the naysayers are playing, but I for one don't see Pathfinder as a hoarding game where you can't touch the stuff I've 'earned' through murder and mayhem and must either present bigger dangers or smaller rewards to temper my onslaught.
As long as nobody is trying to gimp you 'forever' I don't mind.
Having your stuff stolen, rendered useless or having yourself be crippled in some way is great RP fuel as your character needs to deal with a situation he's not equipped for.
Hell...as a GM I go way WAY further than the innocent suggestion of sundering reagents and I've had materials tampered with so they produce wild or inaccurate effects, weapons replaced with cursed versions of them, players killed and replaced by shapeshifters, arms and legs chopped off, eyes gouged out and so on and so on.
Its not something thats appropriate for a universal rule, but to fly off the hinges because someone asks about ways to mess with a class is just silly.
The assumption that interfering with a player is always malicious is just offensive. As an example I recently asked my Oracle player if she was particularly attached to her Oracle Curse. Answering in the negative I engineered her to go blind and switched her curse to the clouded sight after a failed Remove Blindness spell backfired. It fits the story perfectly, it fits the character arc, it just fits. The reason I don't even post about this here is because, just like in this thread, I'd most likely attract "OH YOU CANT JUST CHANGE CLASS FEATURES!" or "OMG SPELLS CANT FAIL!" or whatever...
This isn't the only thread I've noticed this in, but seriously...get a grip.
I see the rule-set more as...say...resin and the setting is the mould. On its own I don't find the rule-set horribly interesting but when its injected into a setting, taking on a new shape and invariably some bits being left out, does it start to be interesting and fun to explore for me.
In my own worlds I viciously rewrite the core rules. In my current most played one, for example, I rewrite druids entirely, change divine magic on a fundemental level, change/add various rules and mechanics and so on and so on.
I do this to match the ruleset to the logic and physics of MY setting, not the other way around.
I write nothing down.
I run a homebrew world that use to have a wiki page and allsorts of stuff, and then the server HD bricked and backups got lost etc. I was really sad about the entire thing but then I decided I might as well memorize it since it's my own world after all.
I usually have a single sheet of A4 that I keep with me as I GM. On it I write down the names of NPC's the PC's meet (names I make up on the fly) as well as placenames, names of buildings, towns, location of important McGuffins etc. All to help me remember for the next session.
I wing everything aside from the overarching plot. I'll often flip through a monster manual/bestiary for ideas for opponent abilities and the like but almost never am I using something directly. There's a plot, there's a world that is moving even though the heroes aren't and I like the uncertainty and 'freshness' that comes from opponents and challenges making sense as opposed to being necessarily 'balanced'.
My players have told me that they trust no one and take nothing for granted while playing in my games...which I found hilarious actually =D. Currently I'm running a game where the PC's are playing members of an extremely militant theocracy. It's alot of fun for me and them since these guys have shown up as baddies in almost all the games I've run in this world and now we get to see things from their point of view!
Generally I'll work out what happens next session as I walk to or from work or to the store or whenever I have time I don't need to think about anything in particular.
I think the most important thing to have clear is what the purpose of the session/encounter is going to be. Is it to let the players feel powerful and fight a bunch of things? Is it to let them experience more of the world or discover more about the story? Is it to make them despise or fear a certain entity within the world?
Answering those questions for myself helps me prepare a session. Helps me know which 'voices' I need to have ready and I'll often prep a few lines of dialogue I know will come up (again, generally as I'm walking somewhere...I like walking =D).
I hope that helped. I use to write everything down but found that the way I organize and relate things in my head doesn't really translate very well to paper and often gets horribly convoluted as I try to put down all possible angles!
My group had the handouts and knew there was a Quasit 'somewhere'.
Sadly there's no sign saying "Now entering Catacombs of Wrath. This is the place mentioned in Tsuto's notes and the freaks discussed are the sinspawn. Expect the Quasit to be here."
They pieced it together as they went. "Hey, maybe the freaks he mentioned are these icky things!". When the doors to the cathedral opened and Erylium does her "INTRUDERS!" spiel the Abjurer immediately asked "That wouldn't happen to be a Quasit, would it?" Then there were knowing looks all around.
My group absolutely manhandled the Glassworks Goblins and Tsuto escaped down the tunnels. They then followed after him, releasing Ameiko on the way and grabbed his notes as they pursued down the smuggler tunnels. They found a hidden cove there with some rotten boats and tracks indicating that Tsuto must've had a rowboat stashed here. They then notice the once-bricked up smuggler tunnel and headed in.
I can understand it if groups 'head back to base' after every encounter and stock up on what they somehow assume must be in the next section of the adventure. I personally feel that the adventure flows quite naturally from the Glassworks and then straight into the Catacombs, them going back to town first didn't even occur to them and I agree that it would've been kinda weird. My group took the North path through the prison, ran into Korovus and then camped out near the levitation champer thingamy and then took on Erylium after a brief rest.
I find it abit strange that the only way for it not to turn into a grindfest is to have a certain class. Or that they need to encounter her, succeed at a knowl. check, flee, resupply and then have at it again.
As an aside, both the Oracle and the Wizard knew what she was and what she was resistant/vulnerable to. Helped so they didn't waste spells on her, but its not like knowing she's vulnerable to Cold Iron makes some appear =/. Additionally, she can stay easily out of reach of even reach weapons with her flight. If it hadn't been for a string of good rolls for the Oracle they'd have no ability to bring her down. What saved them was me sticking to her combat tactics and not preemptively going invisible to heal up.
I consider Erylium almost a gear-check for the rest of the adventure and I told my players the same thing. This kind of thing will become more common later on (Xanesha is like a pimped out Erylium, really). The players have already started looking at their own builds with this in mind.
A "lol u lose all class abilities!" move is not cool and MOST importantly hardly serves the story.
Rubbish.
Many an awesome story has featured (and even revolved around) falling from grace, redemption, bad choices for good reasons, and attonement.
In fact, its a ridiculously common theme in fantasy literature.
I may have to start prefacing all my comments with 'Read the reply'.
Does it serve YOUR STORY that the Paladin falls from grace for something as trivial as killing a child eating Kobold?
No?
Yes?
Many an awesome story feature an AWESOME FALL FROM GRACE. Not acts taken by characters thinking they were justified when clearly (according to you) they were not. As even the player himself has stated, he didn't know it wasn't entirely in line with his code to shank the beast right there.
Its a child eating and sadistic lizard man, not an innocent bystander.
Many a Paladin falls thinking he is doing the right thing via his interpretaion of the code.
His God may very well disagree.
I'd be careful about this interpretation of Character vs. Player knowledge.
By your own admission you don't even know if he was aware of the severity of his actions and from what I can tell you didn't give him a heads up that this was a clear violation of his code. We have spells and magic items that can ward a character about unknowing breaches of his deities codes or things that'll affect his alignment.
Obvious things should be made obvious to the player.
I have a campaign that is basically based around making my players make hard moral decisions. They're killing unarmed people, children on occasion, they're using torture and often underhanded methods to get their way, committing genocide on a mass scale against people for crimes no larger than being different and none of it is done trivially. My players have the mechanics of their codes and faith explained to them. I often get a question along the lines of "Right, I know what I'd do but what would I do if I were following my faith?". If there is a well known case they might know of, a few lines of dogma with an example puts them in the mindset of the zealous followers of a jealous god they're supposed to be playing as and helps set the precedence for future encounters.
When placing people in the mindset of a different person it takes abit of handholding to begin with. If you want objective good and evil in your games, that's great. You can't assume everyone will understand what that means when it comes to in-game decisions.
tl;dr
If something is obvious to you it may not be to the players.
[What follows is Homebrew talk, I'm not saying this is how Pathfinder is written. Just saying how I run things.]
In my homebrew game religion and those that follow it zealously are extremely tough customers.
I run a game where the gods are focused on the material plane. Some of the gods, especially ascended mortals, are more active than others and exhibit more...mortal inclinations when it comes to what their followers must do.
Example:
In my game, Hemondir is a god of Strength, Artifice, War and Honor. He rose to leadership among his people in a time of dire need and led them through a dark time and extreme natural catastrophes. He was laid low by the magic of a 'non-human spellcaster' and thereafter rose as a god to keep on guiding his people.
Now mind you...Hemondir was human. He was also the leader of an aggressively expansionist nation that would break and subjugate its neighbors. They're also racist, seeing as they believe that the human form was fashioned from the first stones of the Earth and that all other races are flawed or made by lesser beings. They're 'arcanophobic' Arcane magic killed their human form god, it is evil and only serves as a tool for evil to destroy and enslave the good of the world. Ontop of all this they're isolated and xenophobic.
Now take a Paladin of this religion. He's Lawful Good, for sure. He follows the tenets of his faith and what is deemed good and just in it is to relentlessly hunt and destroy heretical outsiders and to safeguard the lands against their predation.
So when the Hemondirian Paladin in my campaign came upon a family of Sorcerers (children included)...well...she did what she thought was right even though it left a bitter taste in her mouth, the penalty for sorcery is death so she killed them all.
Not only was it the right thing to do by her code but it was also 'good' by the standards of her religion, nation and culture.
The paladin did her best to make it as painless as possible, she regretted that they had chosen to come into this land she was sworn to protect and regretted the wasted potential of the people she now had to slay. When the chips were down though, she did what was 'Right'.
-----
Now, that's how I run alignments in my homebrew game. It's very subjective, but not so much that it renders them useless. Its a handy way to gauge how different cultures interact, to assess how different characters view each other and what their values are in relation to each other.
When asking people to assign alignments to their own character (because when would anyone ever be chaotic evil using subjective alignment rules?!) then we pick a comparison point and use that to determine the alignments. So you could be chaotic evil, in relation to the Hemondirian faith, and be the most likable and nice person ever while the Lawful Good guy is at this moment ratting you out to the Inquisitors (who are also LG) who are on their way to kill and/or imprison you.
I like my deities different. So different infact that they run the gamut from selfish and aggressive deities that even bar their followers from receiving healing from another deity, to more ethereal and 'universal' gods that are more a collection of thoughts and desires rather than a dominant personality, something like how my version of Gozreh behaves, where reverence and respect is enough and he otherwise doesn't interfere with people being more focused on nature.
----------[Back to Golarion and regular Pathfinder]--------
The Paladin does not fall.
Lets start with the obvious reason: Its not cool.
Falling because you killed a kobold is pretty weak. Not because the kobold didn't have a family that he loved or that he was about to make a donation to the war widows and orphans fund or whatever. But because its a classic monster that the paladin happened to kill while it was at his mercy.
I agree that the Paladin Code should be a RP tool, not a way for the DM to punish a player for playing a Paladin. The fall of a Paladin can be something the players and the DM enjoy.
Should the Paladin feel bad? Yes.
Should his deity send him a strongly worded letter? (Or the deity equivalent)? Yes.
Should she forsake one of her nascent champions leaving him ripe to be picked up and twisted by one of the COUNTLESS more evil agents out there? No.
I agree, there's things the Paladin could've done differently. But make him fall over something more meaty and substantial. The exact same situation but where he can actually understand the creature is even enough since that's a completely different situation!
A blubbering guard that wails on about his arthritic mother and his snotty children and his hag of a wife and how he's their sole provider and how those Norgorber clerics where paying him so much money to look the other way and the church was no help and the rent on their farm is so high and he cant make ends meet due to the recent droughts and this guard gig wasn't paying as much as he'd been promised oh please PLEASE don't kill me noooooo.
Etc.
If the paladin kills this man, then yes I agree he should fall. Having this paraphrased by a cleric who might go: "Something about him being paid off by Norgorber clerics..." doesn't have the same effect.
I think both sides need to realize (and loads of you do, don't go crazy now) that we're dealing with two different 'issues'.
1. Currently the Pathfinder Fighter cannot deal with situation XYZ. (OP's view)
2. The Fighter would be better/more fun with some changes to it. (Circa Page 10 where this starts to be more prevalent).
I disagree with the examples provided when discussing 1. and have given my views on it. I find its mainly an encounter design issue.
I agree with 2, but then again I change a little of everything in my homebrew game. I differ from some of the other posters here in how I'd change things, certainly. But I still agree and like hearing how things are changed in different games.
Heck depending on the level, so long as the wizard has the right scrolls (which he can make himself) he can get out of the situation, then prepare and come back. Teleport, or even dimension door is really a game changer in the surprise ambush factor.
Sure, but again we're assuming prep time for a wizard. The point I was trying to make is that the wizard being compared to a Fighter is being given loads of advantages and no such concession is being done for the fighter.
Kolokotroni wrote:
As for the all your gear stolen. Generally that is worse on martial characters then it is on all but the cleric and wizard. That table leg will not allow a fighter to handle CR appropriate encounters at mid to upper levels. And the sorceror still has all his tools, so does the oracle, and the summoner, and the...
Wasn't trying to say that a Fighter equipped only with a chair leg will take on any level appropriate encounter. I was trying to get across that atleast a fighter with a chair leg is doing something whereas a Wizard without his book and no time to prepare is doing absolutely nothing close to what the fighter is doing.
I don't think we disagree really. The situation that's being attempted to pass off as a problem is just so ludicrous that my mind tends to wander. There's absolutely no reason a Fighter needs to handle a situation by himself. Even if he had to, there's equipment that allows him to do so. Once he slips on his little boots of Flight he's off in a flying monsters face doing his combat style things and mad attacks like its nobodies business.
The problem is a fabricated one. It doesn't exist.
(Come at me! =D)
In my first run of Burnt Offerings, Erylium TPK'd the entire group.
Group was composed of:
Elven Barbarian
Dwarven Barbarian
Half Orc Cleric
Human Sorcerer
Human Ranger
Erylium went all megalomanic as they entered her 'sanctum' and proceeded to flick and out of invisibility either shouting curses at them and throwing her knife or doing some spell tricks.
While the rest of the party dealt with her minions (more sinspawn had gathered here due to how things had played out previously) the elven barbarian runs over to the Runewell (above which Erylium was perching) and starts climbing. Erylium freaks, starts stabbing him, he fails his climb check horrendously, falls into the runewell.
Elven barbarian succumbs to rage waters and when the half orc cleric runs over to help him out, he eviscerates him with his bastard sword (Crit while raging takes the cleric to negatives) the dwarven barbarian tries to reason with the elf and gets a sword in the face for his trouble (dwarf down into negatives). Sorcerer and Ranger both try to stop the barbarian who, amazingly, is able to take out the sorceress as well before being brought down by the ranger.
Erylium guffaws at the entire scene and proceeds to torment the ranger. Ranger attempts to take out Erylium. Critically fumbles three times in a row winding him, breaking the bow and spraining his wrist. Erylium is staggered by laughter at this point but still manages to take him down to zero hit points at which point the ranger gives up.
Erylium gives him a chance to drink of the waters of Lamashtu or be slain. Ranger gives in, drinks, world melts into a tide of blood and monsters, fade to black.
---------
Entire group was brought to Thistletop scheduled to be sacrificed and the Ranger became a recurring villain!
I like how all the spellcasters that are being brought up and toted as superior are always assumed to have time to prepare, the correct spell selection, advantageous terrain, being aware of the danger and have whatever else they need to achieve that superior damage potential.
I take it you've never been:
* Attacked by a dragon that just smashes through the roof of the inn you were sleeping in?
* Assaulted by a kraken while onboard a ship being tossed around by a typhoon?
* Had all your gear stolen prior to facing an encounter?
* Get targeted first by everything the baddies have to throw at you seeing as you're that wizard they keep hearing about?
And so on.
Where the wizard dies due to lack of prep time the more mundane class just smashes a chair, grabs a chair leg and goes to town with their combat styles and superior physical stats and BAB.
I'll say it again: The majority of the problems people seem to be having seem to stem from poor encounter design.
I don't see anyone forcing anyone to adopt a playstyle they dislike.
Your flier rule, for instance, seems cool at lower levels but it scales badly. That being pointed out (and demonstrated) doesn't invalidate your way of playing. It just points out that your flier 'fix' scales badly.
You know how I fix fighter with no access to fly spells vs. higher level flying opponents.
*looks around*
*leans in close*
[whisper]I stage the fight so that the fighter is fulfilling a vital role while those with more of a ranged niche take care of the flying target.[/whisper]
See! Not that hard is it? There's plenty of ways to do this:
* Any dragon that provides a challenge for a high level party surely has waves of lizardfolk cultists that will hurl themselves at the party?
* What about the ballista of the fort that the dragon just demolished? Maybe it survived! =O
* The old church is still standing! I'll climb up, toss a grapnel at that dragon and climb my way up to it!
* What in the Nine hells is that? The Circus was in town? *reads sign* Gnomish...cannonball? That gives me an idea!
* The catapult is useless against his minions at this range...unload that stone and put me in!
* Toss me!
* Give me that bow!
* What? Those golems are trying to free the other dragon? I'll take care of those, you take care of old scaley up there!
* Figures! That Dragon is in league with the Penumbral League! Your back to me wizard, I'll keep those shadow plane scum off you while you work a spell to get that dragon on the ground!
* The orphanage is on fire! You deal with the dragons, those orphans need me!
And so on and so on and so on.
It's easy to come up with something for people to help with. If your fighter has no interest in ever flying, fine. There's plenty for him to do.
Unless you refuse to design your encounters that way of course. Can't help that.
(Sent following the faction mission from Rise of the Goblin Guild)
My most Esteemed and Gracious Lady,
As your loyal and eager servant I am ever willing to serve the Empire and her Grace to the best of my ability.
My many social talents are ever at your disposal as well as my considerable knack for the alchemyc and I hope I've proven to be both a capable and worthy subject.
However,
I must question this latest assignment just brought to me by courier. As I am sure her lordship is aware, the Mushfens, aside from their obvious assortment of deadly flora and fauna, are deep fens with sucking mires and lethal swamps.
As her lordship is no doubt also aware of, I, your loyal servant, am 3 ft. tall and am unable to swim.
I cannot help but suspect an error, surely not on your part my Lady, for any such mission is certainly a death sentence for someone of my stature. And while my reputation is, certainly, larger than life I can assure you that it does little to alleviate drowning in a swamp.
I humbly request a mission better fit for my skill at intrigue of one perhaps more suited to my alchemical talents.
My players have got themselves in a bit of a pickle through their adventures and I was wondering if any of you fellow GM's have any input on what happens next.
(Spoiler wrapped in case any players wander in here. This is not for you, and that goes double for players in my campaign...you sneaky gits!)
Spoiler:
I'm running RotRl using the Pathfinder RPG system.
My players are:
"Chanak" Male Dwarven Barbarian - Raised by the Shoanti, wielding twin Klar.
"Adonica" Female Varisian Abyssal bloodline Sorceress" - One eyed and fierce she's currently out of action due to the Vargouille's kiss.
In her place her former companion, Manow, a male Elven pit-fighter is trying to find a cure for her. (Read as: Elven fighter is her backup, he joins after their second excursion into the Catacombs)
"Hrunt" Male Half-Orc Cleric of Gorum - Devoted and stoic (Joins after the second excursion into the catacombs)
"Jacob" Male Human Cleric of Desna - A no-nonsense man who, after Adonica gets bitten by the Vargouille stays in town to look after her and then gets replaced by
"Kruschev" Male Human Goblin-slaying Ranger - Crude but ruthlessly effective.
So the party is made up of Chanak, Adonica and Jacob for the first part, then after the second trip to the Catacombs the group is Chanak, Manow, Hrunt and Kruschev. Abit complicated, but I hope I explained it well enough.
Campaign went pretty "normal" until they discovered the Catacombs of Wrath. My players made repeat excursions into the Catacombs. This in and of itself was problematic since the place really doesn't feel like it it meant to be run as several encounters with daytrips back to town in between. On their first run they took out most of the complex, slaughtered most of the sinspawn but did not enter the Prisoner Pits, Vargouille infested washing pool nor the Shrine to Lamashtu. Second time around, instead of making the trip extremely uneventful, I add another sinspawn and have all the zombies moved into the hallways. Erylium is not about to let intruders prance about her sanctum unchallenged so this seemed to make sense. The heroes kill all the zombies and the sinspawn then proceed to the washing pools where the sorceress gets bitten. They thoroughly trounce the Vargouille and then head to the Shrine.
Erylium summons a sinspawn and combat ensues. The players nuke the sinspawn and it dies without really doing anything. Most of Eryliums spells get resisted so I have her screech and summon Korovus. He arrives a few rounds later at which point Erylium has taken to hit-and-run tactics, going invisible and then appearing and taking a few slices at a PC or hovering up near the ceiling and firing off some spells that start to wear on the PC's.
Korovus enters play, there's some shenanigans involving the PC's swarming him. The cleric gets taken out of action, others severly wounded and Erylium is at this point out of spells but otherwise unharmed.
The players decide to retreat and escape the catacombs.
At this point I was at a loss what to do next. I KNEW they'd go back down there and I'd used everything that was down there and then some. Only thing down there was Erylium which I could either just let them kill (which wouldn't have been very satisfying). So I decide to have Erylium make a last stand. At this point her plans for conquest and glory seem pretty hopeless. By all accounts her goblin and human allies are all dead. Her Sinspawn are all dead and her zombie worshippers are smashed and gone. She's all alone again and while the presence of Lamashtu is still present the power of the Runewell has lessened considerably and with it her hopes and sick dreams. In desperation she summmons another sinspawn, the runewells glow dimming even more. She has the sinspawn collect all the bodies into the Shrine and then prepares for the return of the PC's.
The PC's recruit a few more able bodied adventurers in town and head back to the catacombs the next day. The place is eerily quiet and the doors to the shrine are closed. The door is opened by reciting a prayer to Lamashtu that is written on the door (the prayer from the Lamashtu article in Sins of the Saviors...I think it was). The door opens, blood and ichor leaking from the wailing faces on it. The atmosphere was great, the PC's psyched.
Anyways...the über sinspawn attacks and lasts two rounds before being chopped apart and set on fire (oil + tindertwigs = Crispy Sinspawn). The dwarven barbarian has a personal grudge against the Quasit and goes after it. Erylium gives it all she's got and I play her very aggressively (mainly to give them more chances to get close to her). She uses loads of Inflict spells, claw attacks, hideous spittle on the ranger and so on. She's untouchable, she's a dervish of destruction, a cackling goddess of spite and rent souls
...
Seriously, they couldn't touch her! She escaped from grapples against all odds, she critted left and right and people were fumbling in face of her vicious assault.
In the end the elf splashes into the Runewell, fails his will save and impales the cleric who promptly goes unconscious. Then the mad elf takes out the barbarian. The ranger, not wanting to be next, takes out the elf from range. Just like that, 3 of 4 adventurers are down and all due to friendly fire. My jaw dropped as the ranger proceeded to fumble three times in a row and due to our use of the Fumble Deck he's pretty much crippled.
Erylium cackles as she slices at him a few times. The ranger tries to hit her...he really does...but he can't manage to hit this Avatar of Ruin =p.
The session ends where he's doubled over, winded and bleeding from a dozen small cuts. His friends all unconscious and a cackling demon thing floating over him, flickering in and out of invisibility and taunting him.
It's here that I need some advice. Should I just kill him and be done with it? That seems like a pretty blunt way to end things. Also what would Erylium gain by this? She has him at her mercy and her situation isn't so good.
I've been thinking that she'll try to break him, have him get something she needs. At the very least I think she doesn't want to be left alone again. With the runewell all but extinguished and a very real threat of the creatures on the surface returning again in greater numbers or, as she fears most, sealing up the way to the catacombs for good she needs something...
But what?
What would you fellow GM's do in this situation?
Pathfinder Society GM. 98 posts (104 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 9 Organized Play characters. 3 aliases. 
