| Dreamtime2k9 |
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I will add to this thread untill i am finished with all domains and cleric feats although with the limited editing time for OP's, it will be done so in posts henceforth.
This Google Doc will always have the latest updates, including any potential adjustments made and will include images to each individual power without having to open the pdf for conveniance.
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Clerics are presently strong in the pathfinder playtest, however after playing several of them throughout the doomsday dawn adventure as well as a few pfs modules; i kind of started to wonder about my choices in character creation as most of them turned out with very similar choices where i felt constricted for options: not because of lack of options which’ll naturally improve with more content but instead because there was a lack of viable or worthwhile choices.
DISCLAIMER
Everything i wrote, i am doing out of my own perspective as someone who has been playing role playing games since early 2000’s, i have done some homebrewing for my own games across various systems but that’s about as close to game designing i have come, meaning it is completely possible my suggestions are over the top and not balanced but they would (hopefully) lead to a discussion that would (hopefully) lead to having options in the system that would at the very least be situationally useful to the point someone in a future game would feel like they had options and be willing to pick any of them up if the option would fit their concept.
I’ll start with domains, especially as they are essential to the cleric class as a whole and it’ll assist me when i would be talking about feats in the future and their combo potential with some of the domain abilities as a result.
I will state the following as a general consensus for all domains and just look at the quality instead of also taking into account the feat cost for the second domain powers so just keep in mind that as long as the feat tax exist practically every 2nd domain ability is actually a whole lot worse as a general rule of thumb.
I also have a strong suspicion that the domains were created before it was decided to only have them be available through a feat judging from the overall power level of them across the board as only a handful of them would actually be worth the investment for the benefit they provide when compared to feats in general.
I originally planned to add some color coding for whether or not something is amazing, good, situationally useful or just plain bad. I decided against it in the end as several of them were hard to rate considering combat vs skills vs roleplay opportunity being hard to balance in such a rating system as each of us values other things.
This will be very wordy to provide as much feedback as i can muster. Sorry in advance! With that being said, Lets begin.
Ambition (Zon-Kuthon)
The specifics are vague enough it won’t force a GM to derail an entire game assuming they are creative enough because of the additional prerequisite of the party needing to be aware of the NPC’s ambitions in order to even attempt it; although with enough time invested in researching the ambitions of a potential target, it could pay off in a large way if done so successfully.
I like the idea behind the ability and feel like it could really open up a new approach in more socially/subterfuge style game as an alternative way to deal with some lower level villain’s henchmen or as a new source of information/other fringe benefits that could come from a player having this ability which is a huge plus in my book at least as it could provide some good story opportunity in the hands of a creative player. At the same time, i would say that depending on your GM and the story they wishes to present, and how freely they would be willing to divulge a character’s ambition, this power could be valuable, usable or flat out worthless.
With the difficulty class of most checks scaling off levels and there being a minimalistic amount of ways to increase your success rates through feats and equipment, i would say it’ll only be relevant against lower level encounters as if you would have penalties against equal or higher level targets, it is unlikely you would be successful regardless of your efforts in determining the targets ambition. You could attempt to go against the odds but that would be setting yourself up for failure, right? Maybe as a last ditch resort but would you want to invest in this domain over any others in that case? This means it’s an ability that would be highly dependant on how your game and how the person running the game handles encounters and in the typical game will likely not see play.
I don’t like the phrasing of this ability for the “failure” option on this particular effect which at first glance made me believe it would prevent circumstance penalties for reasonable requests with the listed example of the suggestion spell, but if they were reasonable then why would there be a circumstance penalty in the first place? There likely wouldn’t be and thus this power would only have any relevance for critical failures which means its terrible. As such i am making the assumption that it wouldn’t require something to be reasonable and aligned with the NPC’s ambitions and prevent such penalties for sake of suggestion on a failure? Otherwise this entire ability would be redundant for the example listed in the first place. I don’t know… maybe it is entirely irrelevant and i am making assumptions to avoid it being so with regards to the example listed in which case it’s just bad.
The only way you’ll gain this ability is by picking up a feat as there is no other way of gaining the advanced domain ability which this would be, it costs 2 spell points, 2 actions and last for only a minute. It is situational when you can actually use it as it’ll only do something if you require a roll of 12 on a flat d20 which means you’ll increase your failure chance from 60% to 55% in the best case scenario, it also doesn’t affect spell DC’s and is personal only. In addition it’s a conditional bonus of which there are several others in the system that aren’t quite as restrictive. Is this worth it? I’d say no, there are much better options for domains AND feats.
If you would like a conditional bonus to checks seeing as only the highest one would apply anyway, you might as well pick up the guidance cantrip(+1), heroism(up to +3) or bit of luck(+1) from the luck domain to name a few that are all superior options in every conceivable way in addition to saving out that feat you would’ve had to invest to get this. Honestly, this is awful and that’s being nice about it.
Domain Conclusion: I’m honestly disappointed as i believe the domain itself has a lot of potential to be story enhancing, at least more so than most. I was always a fan of the Ambitious trait in the original pathfinder but at least that could make the difference if you build a character for it assuming the campaign itself would cater to higher level social encounters and challenges, this just seems like a much, much worse version of that and very niche in its applicable use.
Suggestions: For the second ability, i believe increasing the number to a +2 for a single action or even a +3 while keeping the 2 actions would have me at least reconsider. The first ability is trickier but i think adding a small bonus in addition to negating the penalty would actually make it feel worthwhile.
Air (Gozreh, Rovagug)
Massive 500ft range and single action economy actually makes this very usable.
As it stands however, it is very reliant on a game master providing you with terrain to utilise such as lava pits, cliffs, holes and so on; or if you can utilise its combo potential with other spellcasters with regards to “enters the area” or “starts it turn” spells such as cloudkill, hypnotic pattern or entangle to name a few (although the list isn’t that much larger presently) which actually isn’t all too bad i suppose. It could also help you set up attacks of opportunities and even help your group avoid them. The only combo potential the cleric could have with itself spell wise would be the field of life spell(?) which isn’t all too great by itself to begin with and thus doesn’t really make it any better. I guess it could also be useful to deal with mounted characters considering its single target meaning the mount would be unaffected as the rider gets flung off.
I really like it for thematic reasons as it does seem very fitting for the air domain but i don’t quite understand several of its limitations: why does it it need to be away from you as why can’t it be pushed in direction of you? Pushing enemies closer to your allies providing more combo potential with potential attacks of opportunities or even assisting in setting up flanks and so on. Even repositioning allies in a minor capacity towards you could be quite big for a class with healing capabilities adding quite a bit of flexibility. Why can’t it be used on unattended objects? Slamming a door shut and actions like that would make a great deal of sense for the air domain, i guess i could house rule it but i feel like it should just do that by default?
I’m also wondering why it has the limitation of your size or smaller; if you are large size through the enlarge spell does the wind suddenly become stronger, is that what is being implied here? That’s weird!
Overall it is a good ability even if it depends on a variety of circumstances such as party makeup.
Alright, first of all let me say that the ability itself isn’t bad. Single action to gain the benefit of walking on air as if it were solid ground, being able to ascend or descend at a maximum of a 45 degree angle for a full turn alongside a stride action for free; i would say that is actually pretty good as it can allow you to avoid quite a bit of typical issues featuring terrain or even enemy casters utilising zone controlling spells and the like. It is effectively gaining a fourth level spell at reduced duration and limit it to personal only, so at low level such as 4th which is the earliest you would be able to pick this up, it would be quite decent especially considering its cost. It doesn’t scale however and eventually someone in the party would likely pick up a more lasting mobility spell which will make this feel like a poor investment when that arises.
It also fits the theme and i do like it as a whole. However, do i like it enough to say i would invest a feat into this ability which will cost me spell points each time i wish to use it? I don’t think so unless i happen to have a spare feat which would be rare for me personally at least as regardless of how many feats i would be gaining, i’ll never have enough of them for some odd reason!
Domain Conclusion: I do believe some quality of life buffs could be offered to this domain as i already pointed out when discussing the abilities, but the overall theme and strength of the domain are just fine in my eyes. The beauty lies in its simplicity and potential fun factor when you do something awesome like throwing a BBEG off a cliff or moving him against the wall provoking attacks of opportunities and then having the archer using his bow critical specialization to pin him against it. It'd make for a good story when the stars do align.
Suggestion(for Gozreh): Maybe adding entangle to the spell list for the deity would actually be a nice small indirect buff as well. He does have nature as a domain as well so it wouldn’t be too far of a stretch, right?
Cities (Abadar, Cayden Cailean)
I read this and immediately thought, why is this a power considering this should likely just occur by default when players utilise such tactics (with the exception of the ignoring of difficult terrain).
Even assuming that such modifiers shouldn’t be offered for free for having the party utilise their heads under pressure; why is it personal only? Even if you can avoid being caught or detected by having this ability personally, your party won’t be affected by that which would result in either a split party or the result of them being caught being that you would’ve used a spell point that in the end: didn’t change anything but a wasted resource. Even if it would affect others, the person with poor dex because they are walking around in full plate with massive penalties likely wouldn’t be saved by it in any case. The duration also is way too low considering its situational usefulness.
It’ll likely not be coming up more than a handful of times throughout an entire game (if your lucky!) considering most adventures aren’t taking place in cities and towns themselves, even if you did have a campaign that takes place in a city then how often do you believe a group of (assumedly good based on the deities) players would need to utilise these type of tactics and use them over other tactics?
The worst part about it is that it doesn’t seem fitting the theme of either of the deities who have this domain in addition to the above.
I would suggest just completely revamping this particular ability as despite its name, it seems more fitting for a trickery or secrecy domain power in my eyes at least.
I would say this is more in line with what the cities domain likely should do in my eyes at least however… because of the “openly visible” activity phrase it is entirely redundant.
If you would be trying to pinpoint and deal with corrupted guard activity, they likely wouldn’t be engaged in such activities while on guard in the first place and thus; would they still count as city guard activity? They likely also wouldn’t be too open about such things unless the rulership would not care about their soldiers being involved in such. Which i suppose could be the case but it still feels very niche as its cities only which means those poor villages aren’t even an area of concern for this ability.The only other use i could see for it is to precast it in an attempt to time a coordinated attack with the city guard and groups on multiple fronts, but there are way easier methods. At least the duration is sort of fixed with this one but considering how situational it is, why isn’t it 24 hours?
If i think about all of the campaigns i’ve played through in both d&d and pathfinder since 2001, i’m pretty sure i could count the number of situations where this ability could’ve been relevant on a single hand which would be assuming that it didn’t state “openly visible activity”. It kind of reminds me of a cityscape ability which at least to me isn't a good thing.
Domain Conclusion: This is downright awful. I’ll nominate it for a complete revamp because as it stands, it might as well not exist.
Suggestions: Something equivalent to bardic knowledge for anything society based? Bonuses on utilising the city for sake of shopping/selling or finding the right locations/people? Contacts? Gathering Information? Comprehend languages? Favored terrain: Urban? Maybe even a bonus on any skill checks that would be taking place in the city as a reaction? Etc etc
Confidence (Asmodeus, Gorum, Iomedae)
This is a tough one actually as i feel it fits the theme, fear effects are common enough that having an ability to handle them on demand is a good thing, it can even be used proactive which i like. It costs 2 actions which is expensive as a cleric who typically lacks actions in most rounds as you have a large amount of responsibility in most groups, it is personal only and it has a massive downside on critical failures. I personally believe the downside on a critical failure isn’t necessary and the ability would actually be good at that point.
Considering clerics get remove fear on their spell list and are typically the class that would help out the party with it, increasing your own odds in addition to a good wisdom makes me value it more so. I do think that being able to cast remove fear instead of a channel energy by investing a feat later on would make this quite a bit better but at the same time it would also have this domain power feel weaker but considering the frightened condition is a whole lot more terrifying in this edition. I believe this is fine whilst being on the low spectrum of a good ability.
The phrasing of this ability is confusing and i had to read it a few times considering it is not a reactionary effect which would’ve made a whole lot more sense as then at least you would know what you invested those two action and spell points in considering it has the bolstered tag. It is a straight up gamble as it stands, you likely have better actions as a cleric and certainly have better debuffs on your spell list.
I like the theme behind this ability, i even like its effect for the most part and feel it could be a pretty decent debuff for beatstick type encounters but since it’s a conditional penalty, there are much better options in the system as they are incredibly common. If it already missed two attacks then it would probably not be needed in the fight anyway is another thing to be mindful off, maybe it has some combo potential with debuffing a target when it will be swinging against a sensed or concealed target to help weaken it for future rounds but that is hard to predict.
That being said; i can’t say it would be worthwhile with the overinflated statistics of encounters presently in the playtest which will on average have a monster hit ~50% of the time on its first and second strike anyway. I think if those odds would get downscaled a little bit then this ability could be usable.
Conclusion: I believe the theme came across really well here, it’s less niche than most domains but still only situationally useful for the first ability. When the system becomes more balanced numbers wise the second ability could be utilised incase your group will be lacking conditional debuffs, it is a potentially decent domain in the right circumstances but there are better options available.
Suggestion: I would remove the critical failure aspect of the first ability, for the second ability i would make it a reaction. Clerics don’t really get many reactions and i believe at that point; it would actually be quite interesting as at least you know why you would be attempting to use the ability in advance instead of it being a straight up gamble. With that being said if such a change would occur, the duration on failure and critical failure should become something like 2 rounds for failure and 1 minute for critical failure respectively.
Creation (Shelyn, Torag)
Honestly, the idea behind this is perfectly fine. However with all of those limitations, i can’t think of many (non-fluff based) items i would wish to create with this besides a 10-ft pole, hemp rope, sacks or something of the sort which are some of the items i would commonly purchase anyway to ensure i’d have them with me when adventuring and even more so when dungeon delving, assuming i could carry them of course. With the bulk system in place and overall carrying capacity having gone down, i suppose i can see the usefulness of this until the party has a bag of holding.
I personally would like to see this ability get an upgrade with more spell points invested to remove some of the limitations similarly to the ability that’s to follow; it would be quite interesting if it could make larger bulk items or items with moving parts to create (for example); a functional ballista to fight the flying dragon or maybe a musical instrument that has moving parts and things of the sort. The reason i am suggesting this is because at a certain point in the game which is relatively early sadly; the limitations just prevent it from being used at all which i think is a shame as i believe these type of effects to be incredibly fun to play around with.
In a strict raw game; despite liking the theme as a person, i probably would not pick this one up unless it was a one shot at low level or something because of its lack of scaling and limited usefulness due to the massive amounts of restrictions.
I like this. It’s simple but functional and what you would want from a creation domain ability. That’s what i would like to say but then it hit me as i realised that the heightened scaling is a bit slow at 7th level for master(3 spell points) and 15th level for legendary (4 spell points).
The most common application would be to assist in a skill challenge the party isn’t typically investing heavily in such as disguise kits or climbing kits or anything of the sort however it would only really be relevant if you had the tools in the first place so why wouldn’t you just buy better quality tools in the first place? The party likely has the funds to do so down the line as they aren’t majorly expensive in any case.
And then i came to the realization after checking the tools in the pdf that none of the tools are of legendary make and thought; Hmmm… well at least once you eventually get to level 15, you could have a bonus +1-2 on the skills that have tools for them compared to those you could purchase which can be done on demand.
It costs you a feat and a good dose of spell points to use it, i would almost argue that it could be worth it with how high skill dc’s are at the moment.
Conclusion: Fits the theme perfectly, i’m personally a sucker for this type of stuff. Whoever came up with it should receive some praise!
Suggestions: As stated in creation itself; the lack of scaling hurts the overall usefulness of this ability as it becomes irrelevant very early on in the game especially so in medium-heavy magic groups. I think some minor quality of life heightening similar to artistic flourish would be nice for it to at least allow some creative tinkering at times. Artistic flourish: i would like to see the heightening levels go down by 1-2 personally considering you would at least need to invest in the base kits for the ability to have any effect in the first place. Alternatively, being able to create toolkits or guides to have the same effect for skills which have no tools existing for them in the system could be something else that would be interesting, akin to 1st editions adventurer’s chronicle’s which personally speaking, i actually do miss.
To do list:
I will do these as my spare time would allow, i should be able to keep a pace of a part every 2-3 days most likely.
Darkness: Touch of shadows, Darkened eyes(2)
Death: Undead’s bane, Death’s call(1)
Destruction: Destructive cry, Destructive Aura(2)
Dreams: Sweet dreams, Dreaming potential(3)
Earth: Hurling Stone, Localized Quake(2)
I decided to do domains 5 to 6 at a time, mostly because i'm trying to do so in depth. I fear if i made it any longer then no one in their right mind would ever read it. Splitting it up in parts might help is what i was thinking.