Adraius's page

This post borrows heavily from this one over in the PF2e reddit community, which is the most comprehensive summation of multiple discussions there on the topic. In short, currently the spellcasting abilities of spellhearts are only usable by spellcasters (specifically, characters will the Spellcasting class feature), but there is significant circumstantial evidence this is not the design intention of spellhearts. With the apparent delay of the spring errata and the Remaster on its way, this issue is in need of attention.

According to the rules under Activate an Item:

If an item lists “Cast a Spell” after “Activate,” the activation requires you to use the Cast a Spell activity to Activate the Item. This happens when the item replicates a spell. You must have a spellcasting class feature to Activate an Item with this activation component.

This prevents many classes from using the spellcasting abilities of spellhearts. There is a good deal of circumstantial evidence this is not intended:

1) When spellhearts came out in Secrets of Magic, they were basically advertised as "permanent talismans." Barring specific abilities like those of Talisman Dabbler, you can either have a talisman or a spellheart affixed, but not both, and talismans are generally geared toward martials.

2) Spellhearts have set DCs (with the partial exception of the cantrip's DC). Items specifically geared toward casters (scrolls, wands, staves, etc.) typically omit a DC for its usage and allow the caster to use their own spell DC, while items intended for use by any character that replicate spells typically use set DCs. The fact that spellhearts have set DCs implies they are meant to be used by those who don't usually have a spell DC.

3) Spellhearts have benefits if you affix them to a weapon and in ways that support typical martial playstyles and actions, like the Strike action.

4) On page 124 of Treasure Vault, where the new spellhearts get presented, there is an art of the iconic thaumaturge using a spellheart - likely either an enigma mirror or a phantasmal doorknob - when it would be a very poor fit for the non-Spellcasting thaumaturge. This isn't strong evidence, as they could still get some benefit from the item and sometimes there can be confusion or miscommunication in the art pipeline, but bears mentioning.

5) On page 127 of Treasure Vault, there is an 'in-character' sidebar that reads as follows:

[Spellhearts are] rather ingenious, combining the simple magic of talismans with the more complex and enduring spellforms typically used in wands—and without requiring innate magical skill from the user.

Taken together, there is substantial confusion over the intended use of spellhearts. If casting spells from spellhearts is intended to be only possible by characters with the Spellcasting class feature, this should be called out more prominently. If it is intended to be an option for any character, the rules need to be amended to allow it.

2. How many students does the Magaambya have? Some of the content seems like there is 9-10 total students, and other sections suggest there's a good deal more. Coming from the P1 APs I was surprised there wasn't a Gazeteer with more info.

I did some research to estimate the size of the Magaambya, and inform how I present it in my campaign. I posted it here.

Here's a reddit discussion about the Stranger in the SoT subreddit, which has a suggestion or two.

I am working on prepping the campaign and I was curious if anyone had given thoughts to other downtime activities to show the PCs progress.

Crafting and learning additional spells. My thought was to include one additional downtime activity per month.

So a PC could spend their free time crafting to learning a spell or something else, even earning pocket change if they don't want to craft or retraining once they have additional levels.

I expect to have 3 -4 downtime sessions during chapter 2.

Yes, sort of. I'm hoping to take advantage of the time scale of this adventure to give downtime activities a greater place in my campaign, and am working on a homebrew reworking and expansion of the academia subsystem to accommodate additional GM-crafted rewards.

The short version is my players will have a chance to quickly craft an item, make a bit of extra coin, track down and learn a non-Common spell or two, etc. each major downtime period. In the long term they can also pursue custom content like personal variations of spells or custom items.

OP, you might be interested in this reddit thread: www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/ra9gcr/i_run_2_groups_of_strength_of _thousands_and_both/

Do your player's characters all come from the Mwangi expanse?

So far it looks like my players want to play characters from all around Golarion. Do you think that is a problem if they can generate some plausible story for why they want to study at the Magaambya? (I just told them to read the Player's Guide and then check in with me.)

Good question. I was worried my party might be like this, as personally it wouldn't sit right with me, but so far everyone has chosen to be from the Expanse.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to you and your group. If everyone is happy with it, *including you*, then go right ahead.

P.S., Lost Omens: Character Guide is a good source of info to help make it work, if you choose to okay it. We know the Magaambya has very informal entry requirements (earn a Magaambyan’s respect and pass an entrance interview, p99, org profile), and it names four new Magaambyans spread across Avistan (at Vellumis, the Sarkoris Scar, and New Thassalon, p102-103, sidebars) whom the players could have met and earned admittance to the academy from, either at those locations or as the Magaambyans were travelling there across Avistan.

xNellynelx, that's an awesome set of responses, thanks!

Can I ask how far your group has gotten? Or more generally, from anyone who is a decent way in, is there any advice you would give with the benefit of hindsight?

As someone new-ish to running 2e, I have some questions about the academia system, campaign difficulty, and how to approach adding new rewards for players to the campaign. Apologies in advance for the blitz of questions:

To what degree are the players intended to be able to take advantage of the academia system? Is it expected their primary/secondary branch levels will not lag more than a little behind their class level and half their class level, respectively?

Strength of Thousands uses the academia system on top of Free Archetype, which gives access to a very substantial number of additional feats and benefits; just how much additional power does this represent? How does it compare to Dual-Class PCs?

PF2e adventure paths have a reputation for being difficult; has this adventure been made more challenging than "baseline" guidelines to account for the PC's extra feats and benefits, or is the difficulty relatively relaxed in keeping with the "scholarly" theme?

What advice would you give to DMs looking to create additional homebrew rewards for their players? Would it be advisable to integrate them as alternative rewards from the academia system where possible to avoid further power escalation, or should the system still be fairly tolerant of additional rewards so long as they aren't straightforward power boosts?

What culture is Fardrik, one of the students introduced in this book, supposed to belong to? He's from Vidrian and has dark skin that very much looks like a native of the Mwangi Expanse, but the book has this to say about him:

"He uses humor to deflect questions of his past, but has opened up to those closest to him about the oppression he faced as a tiefling in the formerly Cheliax-held colony of Sargava. Fardrik knows Ignaci from those pre- revolution days, but the two didn’t move in the same circles and even today don’t get along."

My understanding that essentially all Garund natives in Sargava were either slaves or part of the servant underclass, so it's weird that the passage would mention oppression owing to being a tiefling without mentioning oppression owing to being a Vidric. The fact he knew Ignaci further implies he's not Vidric, unless "didn't move in the same circles" is a euphemism for the slavery situation. His dark skin could just be due to him being a tiefling - that feels pretty unlikely, but it *would* even further explain the discrimination he faced, if he was born with the skin color of the enslaved.

What do people think of introducing the students from this book during the events of earlier books? Jumimo most of all could be around, and I'm thinking the others likely join during the events of books 1 or 2. Anyone think its narratively preferable to hold them in reserve so there's some new students to figure out in book 3?

Just as background, in Guns & Gears the start of Chapter 2 describes three broad categories of fantasy-tech: clockwork tech, steam-powered tech, and stasian tech, with the latter two described as extremely recent inventions and clockwork as by far the most common. If you look at Nantambu's section in Lost Omens - The Mwangi Expanse, there's a small sidebar that reveals there are a few makers of clockwork devices in Nantambu owing to the city's good relationship with Axis, seeing as it's bastion of order in the region. (there's even a picture of a Nantambyan with a clockwork) More generally, the Mwangi Expanse is scattered with ancient Shory technology that could serve as a basis for an Inventor character - I think an Inventor works perfectly well in Strength of Thousands.

Also, if you wanted to accommodate your inventor or open things up for them later, Nantambu is a major trade hub that could see advancements in technology reach it. Alkenstar to the east is the nearest bastion of technology, and there's a sidebar for the very cool Sterling Dynamo prosthetic-centric archetype in Guns & Gears explaining how the advanced clockwork prosthetic is the result of collaboration between an inventor in Alkenstar's Dongun Hold and a researcher in Absalom's Clockwork Cathedral. Clockwork technology or advanced technology of any kind could conceivably flow from Absalom to Alkenstar and then eventually find its way to Nantambu.

She is the groundskeeper and gets a quick mention in the first book (Kindled Magic) during the teacher's assignment by Koride Ulawa. Also, she is dicussed in this Paizo Blog article on Magaambya staff.

Nice, thanks!

In the profiles of the teachers at the end of the book, Nhyira section says that one of her (the book uses female pronouns, so I'll echo that) common associates is someone named Thema, with whom she discusses landscaping. If this was a cut NPC, can anyone tell us anything about who they were? I'm hungry for more people to add to the Magaambya. Otherwise, anyone else strike us as likely to enjoy discussing landscaping?

Nantambu does have a magic school, which could explain its higher level of available spellcasting services. I am not sure about Osibu, but some similar explanation may apply.

You misunderstand; the higher level of available spellcasting services is 100% intentional and good. The way these statuses are being communicated in the text of the two settlement entries is contradictory and confusing.

I'd bet it's a typo, and the levels were intended to not be doubled, as in the rituals were given levels like items, not spells.

Really I'd bet you should half the rituals levels.

*rages against Paizo's decision not to rename spell levels to spell circles or another alternative for 2e*

I'm largely joking, but if you're correct this is the second instance I know of where this has caused errors/confusion in published material, and there's plenty of material I've yet to read. This just motivated me to check if the other one has gotten errata'd - it hasn't - and post about it, see here.

I've noticed something that could use some errata. Osibu offers primal spellcasting services of a higher level than its settlement level, and from the context it's clear the level of the spellcasting services refers to spell level. Nantambu likewise offers spellcasting services of a higher level than its settlement level, but the level of the spellcasting services is given as a character level/settlement level. (e.g. on the 1-20 scale rather than 1-10)

As far as I know, these are the only two instances in print where the level of spellcasting services is enumerated separate of settlement level, so either could conceivably be be correct. Whatever the system going forwards is established as, one of them should be corrected.

I'm confused by the ritual Community Repair that can be found by the PCs to resolve the Flooded Workshop task in Chapter 2. As one of the Straightforward tasks, the players are expected to be able to complete it at level 5, or level 6 at most. The ritual is framed as the player's best solution to the problem; given the stiff DCs for performing rituals, I expected Community Repair to be a 1st or 2nd level ritual at most to avoid it being infeasible for the PCs to attempt. Instead, Community Repair is a 4th level ritual, which won't even be attemptable by the PCs until they are 7th level!

I'm frankly at a loss for why this would be.

The alternative ritual solution, Unseen Underpinnings, is 2nd level, but it would be a shame for the much cooler Community Repair to go unused, and rather defeat the purpose of its inclusion.

I'm coming around to the idea that the total lack of any stipulations in the Learning Rituals subsection should be taken at face value - if you find a ritual you can learn it and use it more or less on the spot, unless the GM rules otherwise. It's odd that it's so different from the fairly involved process for learning Uncommon or Rare spells, but it facilitates tropes like encountering an ancient evil in an abandoned temple and shortly thereafter finding the ritual to seal it away and performing it on the spot. If it was intended to be so easy I wish it had been made more explicit, or if GMs are encouraged to be inventive with how rituals are learned, some guidance on how to reward the party with rituals and integrate them into a campaign feels sorely missing from the Core Rulebook/Gamemastery Guide.

I'm confused by the rules for learning rituals, especially as a non-spellcaster. Between the header for the rituals section saying anyone can cast rituals and the rules for rituals stating 1) the primary caster of a ritual must know the ritual, and 2) you can be a primary caster for a ritual even if you can't cast spells, it's clear non-spellcasters are supposed to be able to learn rituals. Rituals are referred to as spells. However, the action that seems appropriate, Learn a Spell, requires you be a spellcaster. Furthermore, the action requires you make a check with the skill corresponding to your tradition, which non-spellcasters don't have, and even under a generous interpretation where a non-spellcaster could use any of Arcana/Nature/Occultism/Religion to learn a ritual that requires the same skill for its primary check, there are weird cases such as Community Repair, a ritual where the primary check is Performance.

Pathfinder 2e has otherwise made it clear to me that when actions have traits or requirements, they are there for a reason, and Learn a Spell was plainly not written with rituals in mind. Thus I'm left with only the "Learning Rituals" subsection of the Rituals section, all of 3 sentences summing to, "Rituals don't count against limits for your normal spell casting abilities. You have to look hard to find someone to cast one, and they may not want to teach you."

Is Learn a Spell the way we are supposed to learn rituals and the action was written without accounting for them, or is the process for learning rituals simply left up to the GM?

Adraius wrote:

Of course, I haven't been able to read the whole adventure, there's the possibility something in the later books expects the whole part to have substantial spellcasting ability, but that's something I can modify as a GM should it come to pass.

While we do not, in fact, have details yet, the AP's developer has said outright that there are sections of the AP that assume all of the PCs have access to magic in order to address certain challenges, as well as assuming everyone in the party has either Nature or Arcane (and probably at a high level).

Thanks, that's great info. I'll most likely be running the campaign after all the books are out, so I'll have a chance to review things beforehand, but what I'll most likely do is make my players aware of those assumptions and let them build using full Free Archetype.

According to Lost Omens: Character Guide, the Magaambya explicitly takes a broad view of education and capability, including taking students without magical talents, and non-spellcasters are noted as rising as high as Conversant rank, the second-highest rank at the Magaambya. My table is looking forward to trying out the Free Archetype variant rule, and allowing only Wizard and Druid dedications feels limiting in light of the sheer freedom normal Free Archetype offers, especially as my players come from 1e and really value the extremely broad character building options. In light of the information from the Character Guide, I see no reason not to play with the full Free Archetype variant rule, provided my players work with me to integrate their characters into the setting. Of course, I haven't been able to read the whole adventure, there's the possibility something in the later books expects the whole part to have substantial spellcasting ability, but that's something I can modify as a GM should it come to pass. For my game, I'd rather put my players in a position to have a blast creating their characters and explore the breadth of the system, as this will be their first/one of their first experiences with 2e.

Shadow Weapons are not a weapon group, however the fighter does gain the weapon training class feature and as such qualifies for the feat 'advanced weapon training'.

The AWT they pick cannot have a group that it applies to however, instead they must choose ones that apply without selecting a group.

I don't follow your logic; the feat says it must be applied to "one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature." The Gloomblade's version of the Weapon Training feature does not select any weapons groups; due to the feat's wording, it can't be applied anywhere. Additionally, ALL AWT options only apply to a single weapon group the Fighter have previously selected - none are universal.

Adraius wrote:

Volkard Abendroth wrote:

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.

Shadow weapons are not a weapon group. This is clearly stated in the first paragraph.

Either I am missing something fundamental about AWT, or you are; I'm not getting it, so perhaps we can be a bit more verbose and comprehensive.

As per my previous excerpts, you can only gain AWT by giving up an additional weapon group; the Gloomblade has no additional weapon groups to give up, and thus cannot gain AWT.

As per my original post, I firmly agree with the interpretation that shadow weapons aren't a weapon group. However, I don't see how that fact allows them to gain AWT. Can you explain?

Shadow Weapon Training specially calls itself out as being “weapon training “ in the very first sentence of rules text.

The fighter qualifies for awt.

Advanced Weapon Training

Beginning at 9th level, instead of selecting an additional fighter weapon group, a fighter can choose an advanced weapon training option for one fighter weapon group that he previously selected with the weapon training class feature.

Shadow Weapon Training

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

A Gloomblade quite clearly cannot gain AWT options in the normal fashion.

I'm wondering if it's possible for the Gloomblade to gain Advanced Weapon Training options, RAW and RAI. The Gloomblade fighter archetype's Shadow Weapon Training feature alters Weapon Training; I've bolded the key sections below:

At 5th level, a gloomblade gains weapon training, except that he does not select a weapon group; instead, the bonus applies to the shadow weapons he creates. A gloomblade does not select additional weapon groups as he gains levels.

From the latter section, it's clear that Gloomblades don't have the ability to take Advanced Weapon Training options in the regular fashion. However, there's also the Advanced Weapon Training feat:

Benefit(s): Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you have already selected with the weapon training class feature.

Because a Gloomblade doesn't select a weapon group, it would seem that he can't gain any benefit from the feat. Some have pointed to the working that the Gloomblade "does not select additional weapon groups" as evidence that shadow weapons are some sort of pseudo-weapons group; however, I think that wording is referring to the additional weapons groups the base fighter can select and in no way indicates that shadow weapons are a weapon group - the preceding text about not selecting a weapons group seems pretty clear.

I'm wondering if this is intentional, some unfortunate wording that nonetheless definitely prevents Gloomblades from using AWT options, a grey area that needs clarification or GM ruling, or an unintended exclusion that might well be errata'd for FAQ'd at some point.