D_R_024's page

I saw mention in another post that combat feats were changed to no longer being 1 per round.
(Link: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/combatFeats)

Where is this referenced? Ive searched the forums and havent had any luck finding anything resembling an 'official' change.
Have a game this weekend, and the my DM(s) was wondering.

I think youre missing a very vital part of this feat - it isnt designed for every jackoff to pick up.

It is DESIGNED for someone with high intelligence that is attempting to wade into melee - thats the whole point.

I have absolutely zero desire to argue back and forth about the matter; but I will say this: Im 5 session (and 2 level ups) into a Rogue/Ranger headed Assassin, and the feat works just fine for me. Obviously, a high Dex/Int build is going to benefit from the feat - but I think thats kind of the point. Taking a feat that increases caster level wouldnt make much sense on a fighter or barbarian - why would you suddenly think that, because its a melee-combat feat, it shoud automatically fit every melee class? I wouldnt take power attack on my rogue, just like I wouldnt take combat expertise on my barbarian - its not a matter of the feat being broken, its a matter of using the feat in the way its made to be used.

At level 5, +4 Dodge bonus to AC, for a measley -4 to attack? Coupled with invisibility, flanking and/or favored enemy, it can (and does) serve as a nice way of maintaining a rock-solid defense while allowing you to still be offensively active. Hell, Id be happy to face off against a fighter/barb with power attack - lets see how he deals with a threat that has massive AC and still maintains the potential to be vastly more mobile, able to avoid AoOs with ease AND able beat the ever-loving crap out of him.

Ill tell you how he deals: He dies. I laugh. I loot his big dumb sword and armor so I can buy a fancy rapier and Int/Dex+ items.

And now, I wash my hands of this weirdness....

Our group has recently started a new game using a (slightly altered) version of the PFRPG Beta and it's associated web enhancements; as well as much of the 3.5 material that isnt straight-up bonkers. Given the unusual nature of the group (and our tendency towards interesting gameplay), Ive been inspired - by the work of nedleeds - to transcribe the basics of our adventures. Perhaps you can gain something from them.

To give you an idea of what we're attempting here, allow me to quote the primary DM and all-around good guy, Snowman (names have been changed to protect... uh... something...):

A low level game in the forgotten realms, currently based in Waterdeep.

Ludicrous D&D is a bold experiment, removing any alignment and PrC restrictions while hopeing the group can work their differences out, without betraying the game as a whole.
Only a short time has passed to date, so we cannot reasonably tell whether it was a success or failure yet.
For the time being, the characters are diverse and interesting, which is a motivator for all of us.

Now, lets move on to the mechanics.

Despite our differences however, we have managed to create a quality group that works towards maintaining a team/group dynamic; while allowing players to follow their own ambitions - this particular game being the epitome of our desire to allow character variance (while maintaining the forementioned team dynamic)
Following is a breakdown regarding character creation rules:

Using these parameters, the following characters were created:

Now that we've covered the cast, lets get down to business.

Session #: 1

DM: Snowman
Cast: Ronny, Beth, Big Guy, Leena, Az, Kid

Synopsis:
This being the first session and all, some choices had to be made: namely, whether we wanted the group to form naturally on its own (a risky prospect, given the alignment variance) or have been formed before the game start. We decided to go with the latter.

The majority of the group started out working together as agents of the Gray Hand's militia; a good-aligned adventuring guild sort of organization. The non-good members, it was decided, joined the group later on as their particular skills were called upon; serving as 'free agents'. Due to successes in missions, Beth has been promoted to the role of commander; with the rest of the group serving beneath her as an adventuring party/team in the forementioned militia.

You can take a look at the opening here, if you like:

Currently, the group finds themselves in the militia barrracks, with little to do at the present time. After some friendly banter between the group members, a militia member (NPC) shows up with information regarding a series of kidnappings in the Dock District - and a request for the group to investigate, as it seems that someone has paid off the authorities to 'overlook' the strange kidnappings. It seems that a cleric of Cyric has established a small band of thugs and taken over a warehouse near the docks, using it as a headquarters for a kidnapping scheme in the city.
While the motive behind these kidnappings is initially unclear, the group learns that the band is made up of low-tier thugs; and the targets tend to be of the lower-class.

Having little else to do, the party decides to investigate. They recieve a map from the militiaman, directing them to the forementioned warehouse.
Making their way towards the Docks, the less-than-human members of the group are careful to disguise their appearance - as much as they can without actually creating a disguise or making use of magic, at least. Luckily, despite the rather poor outlook most citizens of Waterdeep bear towards both drow and lizardfolk, the party manages to make their way to the forementioned warehouse without issue.

Upon arrival, the group splits up to further investigate the scene: the two rogues (Az and Kid) move off towards the warehouse to stealthily scout out the various entrances; while the other group members enter a nearby tavern to wait (and possibly search for information). The drow gets more than a few sideways glances upon entering the tavern, which is known throughout the city for its 'rambunctous' clientelle; with a full-on bar fight eventually breaking out amongst the patrons (after some manipulation from the warlock) - only to be quashed by the diplomatic actions of the goodly female drow.... Yeah, weird, I know; but rather sensible when you consider that said drow is a life-long worshipper of Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden.

The two rogues soon return, having avoided detection whilst scouting out the various entrances into the sought-after warehouse. Having little information regarding exactly what the group is facing, a plan is devised: the charismatic warlock will make his way to the warehouse, claiming to be in possession of some lovely female 'slaves' available for purchase; in hopes of arranging a meeting with a representative of the cleric of Cyric's band of thugs, who can in turn be interrogated.

The use of one of the 'inn' rooms in the lower level of the tavern is purchased, and the party retires to this rental-hideout to figure out the details of their plan:
- Two of the female members of the group (Kid and Leena) will pose as the slave-girls to be sold; the Big Guy being sent out to purchase manacles to complete the illusion
- The remaining female (Beth) will pose as the warlock's accomplice in this slaving scheme
- The two most obviously non-human members of the group (Big Guy and Az) will pose as the warlock's hired muscle; the warforged poised just inside the room, while the lizardfolk awaits in the tavern above to greet the thug

After much discussion, and some arousing slave-girl acting practice on behalf of Leena and Kid (which led to Ronny getting rather handsy with Kid; and needing to be stopped before things got out of hand), the warlock sets out to arrange the meeting; returning successfully some time later, with word that a meeting has been arranged.

The group sets up, taking the oppurtunity during the downtime before the meeting to share some personal details; such as the revelation of Leena's faith and the fact that Ronny has (until relatively recently) been imprisoned within the torturous depths of the Nine Hells. The lizardfolk eventually makes his way down from the tavern, tapping on the door to signify that the 'honored guest' has arrived; leading him down to the group's room moments later.

Once inside, the ploy lasts longer then expected - or perhaps, preferred - and results in the thug getting very handsy with Kid; before Beth steps in with a FALCON PUNCH! to the dirty bugger's jaw. A short combat ensues, resulting in the incapacitation of the thug - but not before the sought-after information is recovered: a positive on the existence of traps within the warehouse, and a number on the thugs likely to be encountered (approximately 20).

Following the thug's information, and a small arguement (the girls not being pleased with Ronny's reluctance/delay in stepping forward to stop what was, essentially, the early stages of rape being performed on Kid), the forementioned thug is dispatched permanently by Ronny via an eldritch blast to the head. After further discussion, the group decides to ditch the tactful approach - and try simply sneaking in the front door. So, making their way out of the room (which now contains the mutilated corpse of the thug) and tavern, the group heads towards the adjacent warehouse.

Immediately the group is confronted by a locked door, which proves no match for the combined skills of Kid and Az; granting access to a small room bearing another door and a chest. Thanks to the careful searching and disabling skills of Kid and Az however, the group manages to avoid a series of nasty traps set in this room; moving on to investigate the chest and door. The brash Kid moves ahead to examine the door - opening it to reveal another room, populated by three thugs (two wielding dual short sword; the third - a rogue- bearing a rapier and bow) - while Az examines and opens the chest to find some low-level loots: some gems, a few gold pieces, etc.

Combat quickly ensues against the newly revealed bandits (all of whom use their surprise round to attack Kid), with the group quickly rushing into the fray.

((OOC: Red Ranger had to go afk at this point, resulting in his removal from the combat until shortly after the reinforcements showed up.))

Beth, Big Guy and Leena quickly close into melee range, while Az remains behind to help defend Ronny (who has come under attack from one of the sword-thugs). The thug attacking Ronny is quickly dispatched by the lizardfolk rogue, allowing the rogue and warlock to engage the other thugs. The thugs get some good hits in, especially against poor Ronny; but quickly find themselves outmatched against the lizardfolk rogue's acrobatic sneak attacks, the warlock's eldritch blasts, the mighty maul of the Big Guy and the sword skills of the girls - that is until the door at the far end of this room opens to reveal reinforcements.

((OOC: Not able to speak for the others here, but I can speak for myself. I wasnt really sure where to go with this character in terms of strategy, and opted to try something I have no previous made much use of - combat expertise. Combined with a decent Intelligence score on Az, thanks to planning to enter the Assassin PrC, the combination of Combat Expertise + Flanking + Favored Enemy Humans has proved a wonderful way of maintaining a superior defense and still landing some important offensive attacks))

At this point, the group encounters their first spell-casting opponent. One of the reinforcements quickly goes invisible, though this aids little against the warlock's eldritch blasts. This same individual then attempts a summoning spell to conjure forth a wolf to attack the party - but the beast is dispatched almost instantly by Az, with a well-timed sneak attack. The final thug falls dying; to be finished off moments later by a thrust of Az's rapier into his unconscious skull. A few lucky crits certainly aided the group in this battle. Things got abit hairy for some members of the group here due to our total lack of healing casters; though they were able to continue on thanks to the fact that three of the group's members were in possession of wands of CLW and reasonable UMD skill - though the Big Guy saw quite abit less gain from this, obviously.

After a flurry of wand useage, the group turns their attention to a very important part of adventuring: the loot! There isnt much to be found on the thugs (we've chosen to forgo the gathering of most non-MW/magical weapon and armor; as it usually serves as a burden and can cause alot of issues during transport), but Az manages to locate a chest and a small locked box in the room. The chest is found to be clear, revealing more low-level loot (some more gems and a few hundred gold pieces); while the locked box proves to be trapped, revealing a only another gem after Az's disabling.

The group now moves to investigate the door through which the thug reinforcements arrived, Az peeking through to see a pair of rogues waiting in ambush with bows and rapiers. A plan is devised quickly, wherein Leena's ability to cast darkness is put to good use in shrouding the group's movement through the door; allowing for a quick victory against the rogues (now divided by darkness).

Another door is discovered, Az moving forward to investigate. The lizardfolk recieved a poor roll on his Perception check, missing a hidden fireball trap; resulting in the much of the party (who had foolishly clustered around the door) being injured - though the rogues in the party managed to escape the damage.

((OOC: I have to admit, I was accused of metagaming here - and it damn near cost us. My character rolled poorly on his search check, resulting in my having him ask - in character - if someone else might not want to aid him or consider taking a look over themselves; or at the very least move away from the doorway. This was deemed metagaming, and I have been lead to believe that the trap did not actually exist - until my character's comment was made. Im not sure how I feel about things like this; though were I to ignore my obvious bias in the matter, I would have to say that I disapprove.))

The worst part of the forementioned trap, without any doubt, was the damage it inflicted upon Big Guy; given this damage was rather hefty (having failed his Reflex save) and the group lacking any efficient means of repairing him. Another flurry of wand-waving ensues, all the longer thanks to diminished effect of CLW on the construct (though this was certainly aided by a number critical successes on UMD checks; the DM ruling that these resulted the spell having its full effect).
Battered, burned and cursing themselves for not carrying wands of repair, the party persevered and moved on into the next room - revealing a small room, bearing two doors - and two thugs guarding the larger door.

Upon entering, Az and Beth are assaulted by invisible attackers - who become visible with said attacks - with reasonable success on behalf of the thugs. Things take another downward turn for the party, when both of the visible thugs (guards) let loose with magic missiles targeting the already-damaged warforged. After a hard-fought battle, the last thug is cornered and dispatched; leading to another round of wand tag. Az and Kid move to investigate the smaller of the two doors in the room, opening it to reveal "what looks like a mixture of a treasury, an armory and a storage for smuggled goods"; which contains low-level potions/scrolls, gems and coins. The group notes this discovery, moving on in search of their target: the cleric of Cyric, leader of this band of ruffians.

Moving back to the site of their last battle, the rogues of the party begin investigating the larger (unopened) door. By the luck of the Gods, Az and Kid both manage decent rolls (18 and 11, for totals of 28 and 21 respectively) while searching the door for traps, resulting in a frightening discovery - a Finger of Death trap. With no small amount of nervousness, the two rogues go to work on this deadly hazard; managing to successfully disarm it (and sharing a cute little moment in the process - or so I thought, at least :P).

Now, readying themselves for the final showdown, the group waits anxiously as Big Guy prepares to kick down the door - a manuever we lovingly refer to as 'Oh Yeah!'ing the door(Kool-Aid Warforged ftw!).
The surprised cleric is revealed, quite peeved that his nifty trap didnt manage to kill anyone off...

((OOC: Honestly, I find myself wondering if the DM wasnt hoping a certain someone *cough cough* would fail and die miserably here - in fact, were it not for Az rolling an 18 on his check, that is exactly what would have happened... A pre-planned attack on a specific player based on their character's role within the group, or simply dumb luck - I cant tell. But, a save-vs-death spell requiring a ridiculously high Perception skill in the first session combined with a blatant dislike of my character and (I think) the other rogue player? Something smells fishy in Denmark, if you want this player's opinion :\))

The weasley cleric (a CR 5 encounter, so sayeth the DM) is dispatched easily, getting off only a single spell - a spell requiring a touch attack, on which he gets a total of 9 (the target, Big Guy, having a touch AC of 10). Without doing a single point of damage, the cleric is dispatched in less than three rounds - little surprise, given the sheer number of PCs attacking him (the entire party). Beth makes certain he remains in the afterlife, shoving her blade into the dying cleric's chest cavity for good measure.

It is at this point that the group realizes/learns/notices several things:
- There are numberous sacrificial altars in this room; all devoted to Cyric
- An ancient fresco adjorns the wall in one part of this room, which the party takes an etching of before departing (for further investigation)
- The cleric and Ronny knew each other at one time, prior to Ronny being imprisoned in the Nine Hells (something he revealed earlier in the session; though the reasoning behind it and his means of escape have remained unclear, likely having some relation to his time spent in the Tower @ Luskan). The cleric was involved in some way in the 'betrayal' that lead to Ronny's imprisonment - though Ronny reveals that this betrayal took place at least several decades (if not millenia) ago.
- There is a final door left to be investigated. It is clear of traps, but exudes a foul stench; opening to reveal the stockpile of mutilated, rotting corpses (former sacrificial victims no doubt) that the cleric had been 'saving' for use in the creation of undead. The group closes this door in disgust, refusing to search through the remains and choosing instead to simply shut the door - and give the corpse of the dead cleric a solid kick for good measure.... Sick sonuva....

The DM gives the party a chance to search the rest of the building a final time (via a single Perception check per character), before the group makes their way back to the militia barracks - their loot haul in tow.

And this is where we end Session #1.

FYI: We just finished session 5 today, session 6 taking place tomorrow.
Ill continue to update this, as time allows.
Hopefully it will be of use - or at least entertaining for a bit. :D

Still not much feedback here, eh? Well, bump for held out hope.

Worth noting: Didnt have much time to think on the matter before gametime today, so had to choose on the fly.
7th level feat is now Whirlwind Attack.

Not really sure how I can make much use of this, but we'll have to wait and see :\

Much appreciated input.

Since I didnt clarify: Multiclass penalties are in effect; though each character is given two favored classes - one given by race (in this case, ranger), and one to be chosen at creation (in this case, rogue).
Additionally, we are restricted to a single PrC (I think, cant remember atm). The game has already started, and tomorrow is our 4th or 5th session; meaning I should try to get this hammered out asap :P

Ive definitely considered the scout route, but it dosnt really fit the character and (without a feat like Improved Skirmish/Swift Ambusher) wouldnt really pay off for quite some time. Something to consider: two of the classes Im looking at (rogue and assassin) have really nice abilities - improved evasion and hide in plain sight, respectively - that Im looking to gain access to before level 20. This means Im pretty restricted on how classes will be lined up; but the details (feats, class ability choices, skills, tactics, etc) of the character are widely up for debate. Thus far, favored enemy (humans) combined with spring-attack+combat-expertise has really helped this char out; but I suspect its usefulness will gradually begin to fade as the power level increases (and the bonuses do not; ranger not likely to be raised).

Given a Strenght of 10 and a need for magic items elsewhere (ie, Str item of higher than +2 is unlikely til higher levels), Im not really sure its worth it to go TWF: -2 to all attacks dosnt seem worth the feats needed to make it truly viable, nor the measley 1d4/6+X (X<3) damage that MIGHT be inflicted - am I wrong here?
I want death attack to be pretty effective, meaning I really need to keep the Dex and Int boosted to keep attack bonus/save DC up.
Note: I doubt the DMs will allow using a 2nd sneak attack (granted by BAB) to be used on via TWF... What I mean is, TWF will not result in a 2nd sneak attack at higher attack bonus than would be gained by making a full attack; meaning TWF still isnt very useful for spring attack sneak attacking :(

Skill Tricks are a no-go.

Deadly Defense and Eldritch Erosion are both things Ill look into; the latter sounding like it has some nice potential for support (as you mentioned).
Also, tell me if Im wrong here:
Death Attack requires 3 rounds of observation...
Third round, use the Deft Strike feat (next attack is touch). On the attack (likely while invisible), use Combat Expertise while fighting defensively (-8 to attacks, +6 or higher bonus to AC depending on feats)... Get to make a nasty strike (possibly draining SR if death attack fails, not sure how that works atm) that has a relatively good chance of hitting many low-Dex targets; while granting a hefty bonus to AC... Thoughts on the viablity of that kinda tactic?
If it is viable: What feats might one recommend? I know there are a few out there that increase the fighting-defensively bonus; but havent a clue where they might be located :P

My group has recently started a new game and, having never played the type of character Im taking on, I figured Id ask for some advice.

We're playing a mixed party (very mixed, in fact), and Im currently running a LE poison-dusk lizardfolk ranger1/rogue6 (heading for 3.5 assassin - neither I nor my DM were a fan of the new PrC treatment in this case <.<). Hes working with Str 10, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 12; and has made excellent use of Weapon Finesse + Rapier + Combat Expertise + Spring Attack thus far. We just hit level 7, and I was all set to take ranger 2 - until I realized that it didnt really have much to offer unless I decided to make use of one of the combat-style routes. Now I have an open feat @ level 7, and am not quite sure where to go....

The group currently contains...
- rogue, likely going shadow dancer (newly starting player)
- warlock/sorc
- swashbuckler
- psychic warrior
- barb

... Normally I would go straight for the juicy TWF + sneak attack combo - easily accessible via one more level of ranger - but theres a catch: due to a 'house ruling', rogues can only make one sneak attack per point of BAB each round.
In other words:
One sneak attack until BAB +6, two until BAB +11 (max of 3, I think). This was caused by a rogue char in the last game going TWF and dealing out massive amounts of sneak attack damage - personally Im not a fan, but am not in a position to change things at present.

So, here I am, with a ranger/rogue...
Given small-size and a low strength score (10), TWF dosnt strike me as a reasonable route to take - Im the kind of person that would prefer one attack thats likely to hit over 2 that arent (especially if only one of them will do any real damage).
Ranged combat for a rogue seems to rely heavily upon certain variables (namely, the ability to make use of stealth/invis), and would likely pose difficult when the whole assassin/death-attack thing comes into play.

Ive gotten approval for the Deft Strike feat from Comp Adv.; which essentially allows you to make a Perception check vs the target's AC, success allowing you to treat your first attack made before the end of your next turn as a touch attack. Seems like it would make a nice pick-up for a melee rogue/assassin; especially given Ive already got the pre-reqs (aside from 10 ranks of Percep). Savy Rogue (Comp Scoundrel) seems an obvious choice; but it wont really do this fella any good.

One route Im curious about is a feat like those Ive seen in the Comp Adventurer/Scoundrel books, wherein rogue/ranger levels might stack for the benefits of one or both of those classes. The most obvious (but perhaps most broken) is the Swift Ambusher feat from Comp Scoundrel; which allows scout and ranger levels to stack for the skirmish and, iirc, favored enemy abilities of those classes. A feat allowing rogue/ranger levels to stack for favored enemy could be extremely nice for this character, giving him a wider range of favored enemies than he would otherwise see. Any thoughts on this idea? I have a difficult time gauging this kind of thing, and it would be nice to know whats up before I were to bring the matter up.

So, Im in abit of a spot: What route would you consider taking here?
Im aware of the spell that lets a char make ranged death attacks; but Im really not looking to turn this into an archer, as it dosnt really fit the character AND would make most of my feat choices so far obsolete/less useful.

Any thoughts?

((FYI: As of the moment, planning on pumping Dex/Int and being Assassin8/Ranger1/Rogue11 @ lvl 20; though all the details outside this are still beyond me.))

Indeed, Im pretty sure I saw that post (and its what made me really consider saying something about the wild shape issue).

It seems like either someone really dosnt like Druids in the PF camp, they (or we) dont appreciate how much that class has suffered or... well, I just dont know.

Having the Enlarge/Reduce spells as they are, right alongside other spells that dont offer the benefits of the size de/increase, just dosnt make a whole lot of sense to me...

Having read the wild shape entry abit more carefully, it dosnt seem to make much sense - do you actually change size when you become, say, a chipmunk; or do you just take on the properties of that creature?

I mean, theres a BIG difference between changing appearance and changing form; especially in a game like this.

For some comparison, I thought I would take a look at Enlarge/Reduce Person...

"...This increase changes the creature’s size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a –2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1),and a –1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size....

....The target gains a +2 size bonus to Dexterity, a –2 size penalty to Strength (to a minimum of 1), and a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC due to its reduced size...."

So, essentially, a change in size DOES result in a (size) bonus/penalty- theres no two ways about it. Although, they appear to have changed heavily from 3.5(which I had guessed they did, given the CMB bonuses)

Old Size_____New Size_____Str Dex Con_____Natural Armor_____AC/Attack
Fine _____Diminutive _____Same -2 Same_____ Same _____-4
Dim _____Tiny _____+2 -2 Same _____Same _____-2
Tiny _____Small _____+4 -2 Same _____Same _____-1
Small _____Medium _____+4 -2 +2 _____Same _____-1
Medium _____Large _____+8 -2 +4 _____+2 _____-1
Large _____Huge _____+8 -2 +4 _____+3 _____-1

Looking at the beast shape spells...

"...When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type...

Small animal: If the form you take is that of a Small animal, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus. Medium animal: If the form you take is that of a Medium animal, you gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus..."

...Uh huh... Ok, I now notice - these spells merely say you 'take the form' of something. And given there dont appear to be stats for the size change computed into the spells descriptor... Does that mean that when a gnome druid takes the form of an elephant he simply becomes a 3' tall elephant?

So while your abilities won’t exactly match those of the form you take, you will look like the creature and be able to do a number of the things the creature can do. Give these spells a try and let us know what you think.

... I think something is off here. It sounds like Druid has effectively gone from 'Warrior that changes into animals' to 'Warrior who turns into hybridized animal-creature'... The furries are gonna love it.

For my purposes, Im likely going to try to push for the UA Druidic Avenger variant (no wildshape or armor prof; gain Wis to AC, fast movement, and a few ranger abilities). Combined with Sorc, he should be a very useful de/buffer and generalist; with a very nice armor class (considering taking a 3-part feat set; which finalizes with a feat that lets you add Cha modifier to AC - which would give me at least +10 Cha, +12 Wis and +9 Dex to armor class). Given the hate for Druid shown by my DM so far, Im assuming Arc. Hiero.'s ability to increase effective level for animal companion would be null (having already reached lvl 20, which i think they would say is where it maxes - plus not having the benefits of a familiar's abilities; since sorc dosnt have one) and likely wont have access to wild shape; so Ive turned my attention elsewhere.
Any thoughts on Mystic Theurge? It looks to have gotten a slight improvement, and being a lvl 30 Druid/Sorc sounds pretty nice - granted, I wont see that until level 50 (if at all ;-;).

But it really irks me that wild-shape isnt really viable anymore. Dont get me wrong - it was way out of whack before.

I personally think Druids get enough toys to play with, without Wild Shape, to be quite effective. You've already said that trying to outmatch the Fighter for melee is pointless - so why consider your wild shaping anything more than utility?

Yeah, druid has alot of nice aspects - but having a druid with wild shape and not making use of it (be it to turn into a rhino and charge/hummingbird and rain death from above) is similar to a Sorc ignoring their bloodline features, or a Barbarian ignoring rage - their 'defining' class ability is wild shape, and if wild shape sucks that will undoubtedly have effects.

If the size modifiers are meant to be an unmentioned aspect of the power, then I would say that makes it more than viable again - but if wild shape grants only (and exactly) what the beast shape spell defines, then... well, as I said - PF, I think somethings off.

From original post:
..." thus far, my mentioning to the primary-DM 'Have you looked at wild shape in PF at all?' essentially got me a 'No, and I have no intentions of doing so. Get over it.' "...

Not that I dont appreciate the information provided(another viewpoint is always valueable :D); but I can/could figure much of that out myself - wild shape, for as much emphasis as the druid class puts on it, *needs* a fix in my eyes to really be competitive (by which I mean 'still having something to offer the group that one of the other characters dosnt - or at least being the best in the group at offering what that char does). Personally, I think a change to allowing the bonuses for changing size (which are unnamed bonuses, I believe) would at least make WS reasonable again - without making it ridiculously overpowered... Unfortunately, I dont think Ill be able to convince my DMs of this.

My personal problem here is abit more complex - I dont see any chance of getting my DM(s) in this group to consider altering wild shape (and infact, they have already told me that A. they hate druids, B. they dont care if they got over-nerfed and C. they have no intentions of even considering a change); so I thought perhaps I could find out if taking Druid(and ignoring the weakness of WS) would be reasonable at this level/with this group {which, btw, Im thus far thinking that it is not} - and perhaps have something to show my DM in order to aid my 'arguement' (as my personal understanding of 'balance' is somewhat limited).

As of the moment, taking a full 20 levels of Druid seems like a waste - your cleric is better at healing/offense, arcanists outdo you in terms of magical offense, and (in groups that have such a char) hard-core melee will always ALWAYS out do you with almost no trouble.

Playing Druid seems like driving a Corvette in a world of Lambos/McClarens: yeah, your car is nice and all - its faster/nicer/prettier/etc than a Hyundai(commoner) - but it pales in comparison to every other quality car on the road.

Im trying to be group oriented in making use of the Druid, so I guess my real question is - is there ANYTHING of value in the druid when compared to, say, the Cleric?
It really seems like I could just switch to Cleric (saying 'screw you' to the cleric already in our group - which I dont want to do), being more useful/powerful right from the get-go... Am I wrong here? Is there something about Wild Shape *as it is described in the book* that makes it really WORTH 20 levels of advancement?
(as of the moment, the answer Im taking from what Ive read on these boards is 'No.')

Alright, I could really ues some insight - as I seem to be fresh out.
First, some background:
So, my group just started a new campaign and Im considering my options.
Thus far, the starting level was 20 (game already started; so I would enter at the average of the party's current XP, lvl 23).
As opposed to making up epic-level progressions, we are instead using multi-classing at higher levels (BAB ends at Lvl 20, saves and such still use epic progression).
However, players choose 2 'base' classes and 1 PrC; with a requirement that each class is leveled singly (that is, once you take the 1st lvl of a class/PrC, you cannot multi-class until youve completed that class/PrC). As such, lvls 1-20 must be the first base class.
We're using the point buy system for abilities (62 pts I think - yes, its very high). Gold is equivalent for level (meaning Im looking at about 1.5 million GP for spending - not looking to *exploit* this in any way), so Ive got alot of options in that area.
Im focusing on a human char (was considering an Aladdin-ish char; so I can tie-in a background involving Sandstorm material later on); and the game's alignment is... well, lets just say that 'good' is the best way to go.(Quoted from game info: "LG, NG, CG - But don't be a d*ck. Be party oriented. Excuses not welcome.")

The group is currently made up of: Fighter20/Barb4, Wizard20/Swashbuckler3, Sorc20/Bard3, Rogue20/Whisperknife3, Cleric20/Fighter3...

Given the way the party is set up, melee-combatants arent *really* needed (and really would only serve as another target to draw fire away from the barb/fghter - theres no way to compare to the damage that char can put out, or the attack bonus, without encroaching into that player's "role"), ranged combat (bows n such) isnt something I really want to get into, and the rogue-ish area has been covered (all the good bits at least)....
That leaves casters and with the group already having two full-level arcane casters, I figured that having someone to cover the arcane utility spells while offering some extra divine backup would be nice - but since cleric was already taken, Ive turned towards Druid.

Before learning that it was a requirement that the levels be done singly (and 1-20 be a full class), I was planning on running a Druid6/Sorc4/Arcane Hierophant10. We have a house-rules feat that allows you to increase effective caster level for one class (including spells/day, etc) by +1; but you must be able to cast 4th lvl spells via that class, and CL cannot exceed HD. This was designed to make certain PrCs more viable to casters; but served my uses well.

Effectively, I was looking at a character that (after taking that feat 4 times - lvl 13, 15, 17 and 19) was casting as a Druid 20/Sorc 14, had the Companion Familiar of a 19th lvl druid(with a feat), wild shape of a 16th lvl druid, and the first 2 sorc bloodline powers.
Sorcerer (went with the Destined bloodline) was focused on aiding the party for the most part, with a few utility/offensive spells(focusing on spells that dont allow saves) thrown in. The druid spells were to be the character's primary 'offensive' focus; as Im currently under the impression that the changes to wild-shape have left druids at a disadvantage in that regard. I focused on high Dex/Con and Wis/Cha; figuring that Str would be something that I could compensate for with wild-shape (while minimizing loss from Dex penalties).

Now the plan above seems to have been seriously hindered - if not obliterated.
Im still considering this build - Im hoping to convince the group to let us break up post-lvl20 classes into 5-lvl blocks (essentially, at lvl 30 the char would be a Druid 20/Sorc 5(+1 effective CL from feat)/Arc. Hiero. 5 - casting as Druid25/Sorc11, with wild-shape/comp. familiar of lvl 25 Druid as well as other druid powers); but I have little hope of pulling that off, and have doubts that it would be really viable even then.

Starting, Id be a Druid20/Sorc 4.... Assuming what Ive mentioned so far, is this likely to be worth it in the long run; or should I just figure out another concept?

Whats 'the word' on Druids in PF? Ive seen alot of back and forth regarding how much they were effected by the changes to wild shape (note: I agree it needed a fix *badly*; but I think a nerf of the given level was too much), and am not sure what to think.
The bonuses from wild-shape are Enhancement, but do those include the changes in size stat-changes? Or do said changes (for changing sizes) count as un-named bonuses?
Even if I dont go with Arc Hiero; what would be a good mix for Druid/Sorc?
I was looking at Ashworm Dragoon (from Sandstorm); but it seems like it just wouldnt be all that useful at really high levels (ashworm mount at level 20? pretty cool... lvl 40? yeah, not so much).

*sigh*
Im just kinda at a loss at the moment - any input to offer on the matter? My foresight isnt the best, so it helps to have someone/folks to bounce things off of - especially that arent harsh when it comes to things they dont like (as some of my group mates can be - thus far, my mentioning to the primary-DM 'Have you looked at wild shape in PF at all?' essentially got me a 'No, and I have no intentions of doing so. Get over it.'{<- cleaning up the language used *alot*).
Any/all responses appreciated.

Hey there, looking for some online dnd action.

Im not into pbp, but have had tons of fun games using OpenRPG. If you arent familiar - take a look.

Im with a group right now thats been playing double campaigns (3.5 DnD/d20 Modern - both using Pathfinder rules for most things), but the modern game has gone into semi-hiatus and focus has shifted to the DnD game - which I recently dropped out of due to (in my eyes at least) too much of a focus on sex-jokes, crude humor and the like.

I can enjoy some laughs in-game, but when the focus shifts from being adventurers to .... well, being lazy/strippers/etc.

Bleh.
Anyway, I have alot of experience with role-playing ( 10+ years, pretty much all of which was online via OpenRPG and other such means), and have a fair bit of experience with pathfinder.

Id also like to give DMing a try, if the oppurtunity arises.

Im on EST, only looking for online (DnD 3.5 - no 4e; d20 modern/future; etc), and looking for a focus on serious RP/adventure.
Any takers?