Crust's page

Saying "non-epic" wouldn't have changed my argument. Using miracle to teleport a specific ancient red dracolich into a cramped room of the caster's choosing is an effect that is more powerful then dragon knight. Describing miracle as "the most-powerful spell" or "the most-powerful non-epic spell" is irrelevant.

I'm not sure how it's a toss-up whether epic spells are more powerful than miracle. In order to cast epic spells, you have to have mastered 9th level spellcasting already, you have to have at least 21 levels to fulfill the 24 ranks needed in spellcraft and knowledge: arcana, you have to research and build the epic spell out of seeds, you also have to be able to beat a spellcraft DC before the spell even works, and you need the epic spellcasting feat. All you need to cast miracle is a certain caster level (which is always below 21), a spare 5,000 XP to burn, and an excuse that the DM will buy.

There's no question that epic spells are more powerful than miracle. That logic can (and should, really) be used to reign in an ambiguous spell description like miracle. To do otherwise is to open a Pandora's box of rules exploitation that can cause the game to spiral out of control, giving non-epic PCs more power than can be expected by either the author of a Dungeon module or the DM running a game.

It's far different from teleportation circle. The casting time of teleportation circle is 10 minutes, which I suppose can be soaked up by a miracle costing 5K XP. Aside from that, the teleportation circle trap must be trod upon, and casting it under an unwilling subject is stretching things. This is of course my opinion, and really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Indeed, it didn't make him less powerful, but it took him completely off guard and gave your entire party a surprise round to do whatever they wanted, tipping the scales (forgive the pun) too far in your favor. A change of venue is one thing, but when that venue comprises readied, buffed PCs and a dimensional lock, that's more than a change of venue. Again, this is just my opinion, and in the interest of game balance, I couldn't allow that.

And yes, it would seem out of bounds using miracle to slay whomever. I'm glad we're both seeing the need for balance.

I have no doubt that your party could have taken Dragotha even without the miracle. When my group meets Dragotha, I have no intention of ending the campaign. Even if they prepare horribly, I will find a way to continue the campaign. After all, I didn't put all this work into a campaign to allow a TPK when I'm not ready to stop the story.

And lastly, by reigning in miracle, the DM is not changing things to make the spell not work. Miracle's spell description is too ambiguous, and when a DM like myself makes it clear that the spell can be used "this" way and not "that" way, it's an attempt to curb exploitation and achieve balance not punish players for planning ahead. I'm not going to screw my players for my own enjoyment, holding my power over them like a tyrant. But I will not allow my players to exploit poorly-written rules. No DM should allow that.

Miracle isn't the most powerful spell in the game. Dire winter, an epic spell, is more powerful. In fact, dragon knight, an epic spell that requires at least three epic spellcasters casting in unison for it to work, summons an adult red dragon to the casters. Considering that, forcefully calling a specific ancient red dracolich is not only going beyond the boundaries of a 9th level spell (miracle is, after all, a 9th level spell regardless of the vague spell description), it's going beyond the boundaries of an epic spell requiring three epic spellcasters to cast.

Beyond that logic, as a DM, I can understand a player assuming that miracle is capable of "anything" if the caster is willing to burn XP, but in the case of Dragotha, a boss monster that has a rich history and thousands of years on the PCs, the players, and the DM, there's no way I'd allow him to be teleported into the midst of a party of PCs who are buffed and have readied actions set to annihilate, solars on hand, etc. That's exploitation of an ambiguous spell description in the eyes of this DM.

My players use every opportunity to use muddled or poorly-written rules to their advantage, and it's up to the DM to counter that with logic and reason (like comparison to the dragon knight spell above) and a general idea of what should and shouldn't happen within the boundaries of reality in-game (note my example of Bahamut's response to such a miracle below).

Certainly none of the examples in the miracle spell description even hint that such a thing would be possible even WITH the XP penalty. Casters can move themselves and party members to other planes, can save cities from volcanic eruptions, and restore fallen comrades to life, and all these examples are used to save others at the expense of the caster. Assuming that such vague rules allow one to summon hundreds of millions of gold pieces, destroy a planet, or call a dracolich into a cramped room full of readied PCs (all examples of exploitation of power, something chromatic dragons are known for, certainly something that Bahamut would frown upon) is, like I said, exploitation of ambiguous rules, something that savvy D&D players are notorious for across the globe.

I ask again, why not simply use miracle to destroy Dragotha outright and soak up the XP? By your reasoning, miracle would allow that. Why waste time buffing and gating in solars when you can just use miracle to annihilate bosses without even meeting them?

I'd like to hear from your DM, personally. I wonder if he/she deeply regrets the decision in hindsight. Not that we'll get an honest response (people, myself included, are often reluctant to admit a mistake), but if I could read your DM's mind, I wonder what I'd find.

Does it matter now? No. Is anyone going to learn from this? That depends on who's reading these posts, whether that reader is a DM or player, and how familiar that person is with the rules and the subtle nuances of D&D such as ambiguous rules that can be easily exploited by players.

Sean,

What you're saying makes sense, but such uses of miracle should have a greater cost than 5,000 XP (if even allowed at all).

And my comment meant that in my opinion, the DM made a poor decision, nerfing Dragotha and giving players the idea that they can use miracle to automatically succeed in any situation the DM presents so long as the player can somehow explain how his/her god would prefer to grant the miracle and is willing to lose 5,000 XP, an XP cost that will most-likely be regained in the aftermath of the miracle.

It's up to the DM to reign in outrageous uses of spells like wish and miracle, and such decisions are not the same as twisting spells for no reason. Players are quick to pull that card, but that's really all it is, pulling a card.

To each his own. My posts are the yin to Malikor's yang, nothing more.

If I were you, I'd burn 5,000 XP and use miracle to get a new DM. ;-)

As an English teacher, I say, "Do the proper research." Have a dictionary on the coffee table. Go to dictionary.com. ALWAYS look up words you don't know, even while watching TV, reading the paper or a book, or after casual conversation.

I expect Dungeon's language to speak to the educated adult. If there's a word in the literature that I don't know, it's my job to look up the word (or do any other necessary research) in order to prepare for the game/campaign.

Keep challenging your readers, Dungeon!