Cledwyn the Steadfast's page

I own a bakery just outside the Grand Lodge in Absalom, called Cledwyn's Confection Castle.

I cleaned the kitchen in the Pagoda of the Rat.

Also, Marv, King of Orcish Barbacue, asks that you eat at his establishment when in Absolon.

Need a supplier of buns and rolls? Cledwyn's Confection Castle, situated just outside the Grand Lodge in Absalom, would be happy to work something out.

Cledwyn the Steadfast wrote:

Oh, Ambrus, while you're here: do any of the Ten have food allergies I should be aware of, especially nut or wheat?

No we do not. We enjoy both nut and wheat, especially if it is brewed to perfection.

Oh, the brewing won't be me. I was checking for the cakes and other baked goods.

Oh, Ambrus, while you're here: do any of the Ten have food allergies I should be aware of, especially nut or wheat?

I hope there's cake!

There will be cakes of the finest sort, catered by none other than my very own Confection Castle, conveniently situated right outside the Grand Lodge in Absalom.

I'm catering the Convocation, and I can't control who attends and eats, but nothing here changes the fact that Blakros family members are banned from the Confection Castle until they utterly demolish that entire damned museum.

*tosses the kid a muffin*

Good luck, kid.

Cledwyn the Steadfast wrote:

I've had Combat Expertise since level 1, and I'm doing fine.

Oh, I also do things other than deal damage, like both tripping and disarming two opponents in a single turn, with an AoO to spare.

See, the thing is that the stuff you're talking about (Improved Trip and Improved Disarm) is just fine and is interesting, but also has nothing to do with Combat Expertise and Combat Expertise itself contributes little to nothing of interest to play. You can have exciting, fun characters with Combat Expertise, but all that Combat Expertise is doing is serving as a speed bump in front of the exciting, fun combat styles you actually were building the character towards.

The post of mine that you quoted was largely in reply to someone's earlier assertion that even the stuff with CE as a prereq was worthless. It wasn't meant as a defense of CE itself.

As to your own stance, I've mentioned in later posts that I actually do make use of the feat itself, not just the later feats. Sometimes my odds of hitting are high enough that I'd rather have the AC bonus. In fact, CE actually synergizes well with Improved Disarm/Trip, as I can get my maneuver bonuses much higher than my attack bonus, and I'm often aiming at a lower target number as well. Sometimes I only fail on a 1, and then only fail on a 3 or worse with CE, so I go for it.

Hence why I think an earlier poster was spot on with the "theorywank versus play experience" comment.

And listen to yourself..."if your opponent needs a 17+ to hit you...". Is that the circumstance where you really want/need to use Combat Expertise?

I alluded to this upthread, but I was once facing a nasty... thing (can't remember what it's called) with claw/claw/rend plus some extra damage (like fire or something). Going toe-to-toe, he'd have needed something like a 13+ to hit me. But I kept tripping him (-4 to attacks) and using Combat Expertise (+3 AC) so that instead he needed a 20 to hit me.

Made a HUGE difference.

I've had Combat Expertise since level 1, and I'm doing fine.

Oh, I also do things other than deal damage, like both tripping and disarming two opponents in a single turn, with an AoO to spare.

In fact, there was one fight where I helped keep the party alive by keeping a nasty bad guy on his back every round (-4 to hit for him, which is big when he has Rend; and -4 AC against all of us). And I was in Combat Expertise "mode" the whole time, so he needed a 20 to hit me instead of a 17.

Yeah, I'm fine with Combat Expertise.

I'll second the combat maneuver advice, though you don't necessarily need to be a Lore Warden. I'm a vanilla fighter, but I specialize in disarm, trip, Linguistics, and baking.

Cledwyn flicks a hidden switch under the counter, activating the arcane mark trap near the doorway. Ethan returns to the streets of Absalom with a phallus on the seat of his pants.

Well, I'm having great success as a vanilla fighter. I'm currently 8th level, with Improved Disarm, Greater Trip, Combat Reflexes, and a +2 adamantine flail.

Recently I found myself face to face with three baddies. I started a full-attack. Used the first attack to trip Thug1 (at +22), used the AoO to disarm him before he hit the ground (also at +22), then used my iterative attack to trip his buddy (at +17), then used the AoO to disarm him (at +22).

I finished my turn with two out of three enemies flat on their backs with their weapons lying next to them.

There might be some fancy options for maneuvers out there, but frankly, it's not that hard to be decent. Click my name and check out my stats - I'm not exactly cheese-o-rama, yet very effective.

So don't sweat the details too much. :)

Funny how someone who identifies himself primarily by his capability within a class (or class approximation) is advocating against class identity.

Why disarm when you can trip?

There are lots of potential reasons, actually.

1. A "take them alive" situation.
2. Standard action disarm, move action pick up their weapon. If they don't have a backup (or their backup sucks), then you've effectively removed them from the fight. I've done this before. Saved a party member's life.
3. Sometimes they have some kind of uber-weapon that really needs to not be in their hands (or might even be better in your own hands).

When the BBEG with a +1 Flaming Shocking Falcata and full BAB manages to get too close to the 16 AC wizard, a disarm could save his life while a trip will be next to meaningless.

@Cledwyn the Steadfast: You've got a point with the buckler vs. light shield point, but in that case I may as well go for a heavy wooden shield to start with for the +2 AC, since I'm not shield bashing with it.

@Whackapapa: I agree, paladin would be hard to build with this combo. Fighter definitely has the most feat-versatility, but I don't think TWF would be worth it. I do like the idea of a tank/controller though, think thats what I'm gonna go for with this combo.

How does this sound for feats:

1: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack
2: Improved Disarm
3: Fury's Fall
4: Cleave
5: Improved Bull Rush
6: Greater Trip
7: Shield Focus
8: Lightning Reflexes

A couple of things:

First, Lightning Reflexes is not a combat feat, so you'd have to take it as a normal feat at an odd-numbered level, not at 8th.

Second, I highly recommend Second Chance as your feat at 6th. A botched disarm costs you your weapon. A botched trip either knocks you down or costs you your weapon. Power Attack and Combat Expertise give you penalties to hit. Second Chance makes all of those facts virtually non-issues.

Second Chance lets you re-roll a missed first attack (on a full-attack action) by giving up your remaining attacks. Since you're not using TWF, that means you're giving up a single -5 attack to re-roll your full-BAB attack. In PFS, that feat turns about 1-5 misses into hits every session. It's really good.

This is with a 20 or 25 point buy I take it?

Yeah, that was 20pt buy. You didn't say what you had to work with, so I just relayed my PFS build. :)

I've always played with a 15 point buy, but that because my groups usually play in the AP's. I had my Con higher than my Dex because I figured the armor and shield would help my AC and I could always grab Lightning Reflexes/Improved Initiative if needed.

With 15pts, I'd maybe try something like this:

STR 17 (15+2)
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 07

A buckler at low levels would be good, but I was probably going to start with a light wooden shield. I'd still be able to hold a torch or something in my shield hand and its cheaper than the buckler anyway.

Personally, the only reason I see to ever use a light shield instead of a buckler is if you plan to shield bash. Otherwise, the buckler is far superior, even if it costs a few gp more.

Indeed. I carry a bow, just in case, and using a buckler means I can use it whenever I need to without a lot of shuffling.

You also get the option to carry a torch or sunrod in your buckler hand.

I personally use an Ioun Torch from the APG. Light source with no hands! :D

I just so happen to BE a flail guy, so lemme show you what I did:

(This is a PFS build - how about yours?)

Human
Fighter (no archetype)

At level 1:
STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 08

Feats: CombExp, Dodge, ImpDisarm

At 3rd level, Armor Training kicked in and that second point of DEX applied to my AC even in full plate.

At 4th level, I bumped INT to 14 for some extra skill ranks.

At 4th-5th level, I got a +2 CON belt.

I'm currently at 8th level, I use a +2 adamantine flail, a +2 buckler, and +2 full plate. I swapped Dodge for Combat Reflexes at 8th when I got Greater Trip.

I heartily recommend Second Chance (APG) at 6th.

Click my name for my current build.

Cledwyn stirs a bowl of batter and starts spooning it into a cupcake pan while mumbling something to himself about being the only normal person in Absalom.

If you don't know what your sweet tooth wants, I suggest the sampler tray, for 25 silver.

Awww bro, whadju sellin' in 'ere, eh?

All the best standard confections, a few specialties of my own design, plus custom orders on a case-by-case basis. Also, Pathfinders get a discount.

*wanders into the bakery*

"Cledwyn, I have an 'adventure' for you. It's guaranteed to be one Hell of a good time. It will really ignite your very soul. Interested?"

*grins innocently*

Did you miss the part where I'm a man of intellect?

So if I want my fighter to actually *know* something for role-playing purposes, the sacrifice in number crunching is non-trivial.

*cough cough*

Should we tell 'em how ye poisoned some of yer party members one time? hehe ::wink::

Hey, you can't find the good stuff if you don't experiment! Besides, now I can record for posterity that cinnamon compsagnathus turnovers are toxic, thus saving many future lives.

Even in my failures I'm a hero!
Bluff check: 1d20 - 1 ⇒ (2) - 1 = 1

*gestures to the assorted cupcakes stacked on a rotating, tiered display tower*

Take your pick. Once you've paid, that is. A silver for the basics, a gold for the specialties.

*throws a broom over the counter*

Impress me and you'll hear how I dealt with hellhounds on one side and Aspis agents on the other.

Sorry, I only make partnerships with people who can demonstrate a reasonable command of the common tongue, and I give preference to those who are well versed in multiple languages.

Cledwyn has 17 INT and a +14 in Linguistics; thirteen languages spoken. Guy like that has standards, you know? ;)

Doors being closed or open is in the realm of DM decision. Players have nothing to do with it.

Hey hey hey! I've opened and closed lots of doors, to great effect. There's nothing like getting two mutual enemies to engage each other and then just closing the door and waiting. :)

Combat expertise is just such a weak feat it's pretty much pointless.

Hey, I've gotten plenty of use out of it. One of my best moments using it was when the party was facing a nasty bipedal monster with claw/claw/rend/heat (don't know what it was called). My CMB for tripping was high enough that the attack penalty wasn't an issue (plus the Second Chance feat acted as extra insurance), and the +3 AC (combined with his -4 to hit from being prone all the time) made it extremely unlikely he'd hit with both claws (going from needing a 13 or better to hit to needing a 20 to hit is a HUGE change).

Basically, every round I would trip him and whack him, so he was kept busy while everyone else wailed on him. Probably prevented a TPK.

And that's not an isolated incident. I probably use it in about 1 in 4 encounters, and it always makes a difference when I do. I think people just don't quite get how and when to use it.

No, it's not Power Attack. But it's far from pointless.

I'd love to see the break down of that AC.

Me too. I'm also 8th level and specialize in tripping and AC... but mine's only 29 (or 32 with Combat Expertise).

EDIT:

Is there anything I've missed in making this happen?

Yes: the only mechanical incentive in the entire game to ever make an intelligent fighter. By making CE require DEX instead of INT, you make Roy Greenhilt cry.

Combat Expertise is a feat tax and Int tax for those who want the subsequent Improved Manoeuvre feats.

Monks can avoid the tax.

If it was a pure feat tax, then the feat itself would never get activated. But I've used it to great effect on multiple occasions.

I'm looking at monks since they're frontline combatants that would probably be able to effectively trip and disarm their foes (or at least that's one way I've always envisioned monks)

As someone noted earlier, monks' bonus feats can skip prereqs.

You guys definitely offer some interesting arguments, but I have to ask, 17 intelligence? :O

Damn straight. I'm a PFS character, 8th level, haven't died yet. Meanwhile, our local Mr. Greatsword barbarian is something like 6th level and has died four times.

Nice way to give a use to int headband to fighters, but not much else, since the cap prevent it for being an actually primary stat. If your intent was to give fighters some free +hit, it fills his pourpose. If you wanted to make an INT based fighter viable, you got a lot more work to do.

Generally speaking, while i like the secondary abilities to be more whorty, i'm against gradually stripping an ability of his use (like dex pushers try to do with strengh). Fighter got to be strong, that should not be changed.

Did you miss the part where I have 17 INT at 8th level?

On a related topic, I like that there's a feat called Combat Expertise that requires some Intelligence and is a prereq for some feats that "feel" tactical.

If only the effect of the feat itself felt a little more... "expertise-y".

Trading offense for defense doesn't really say "intelligent combat" to me. You what I'd like? Something like this:

Combat Expertise
Prerequisites: INT 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 competence bonus to either attack rolls or AC, decided by you each round at the start of your turn. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, increase this bonus by +1. However, the bonus granted by this feat can never exceed your INT modifier.

*reads own text wistfully*

The maneuvers either fall under Combat Expertise or Power Attack. Take your pick.

Or Improved Unarmed Strike.

Combat Expertise is for the Roy Greenhilt School of Fighters, not the Am Barbarian style of hit it until it breaks.

Bingo. And frankly, none of the feats with CE as a prereq are things Thog would really be using. (Remembering again - as so many people forget - that not all of the Improved Maneuver feats require CE.)

EDIT: If my at-a-glance count is correct, Core rules have CE, IUS, and PA each opening up exactly four feats/chains.

What's the reasoning behind making all the other maneuver feats require this one?

It's only a prereq for maybe half the Improved Maneuver feats, if that. Others require Improved Unarmed Strike or Power Attack.

Which class could EFFECTIVELY take this and those maneuver feats?

The fighter, for one. I had 13 INT and Combat Expertise at level 1, and I'm currently 8th level and doing great (with 17 INT). To be blunt, if you can't make an effective fighter with 13 INT at level 1, then you simply still have more to learn about building fighters.

For the concept, wisdom seems more appropriate

Well, it is Combat Expertise, not Combat Intuition. ;)

and in THIS way, monks and clerics could at least benefit. I'm not asking (solely) because I'd like to make use of it as a prereq for other feats but for the reasoning behind making it based in INT.

Why are you looking at monks and cleric in particular? Just curious.

Evil guards, some ghouls,
Aspis agents and hellhounds;
I'll just close the door.

You don't have to play a class that uses INT to have a high INT.

I'm an 8th level fighter (no archetypes, even) and have 17 INT. I speak 13 languages and have a +14 to Linguistics.

Cledwyn the Steadfast wrote:

hogarth wrote:

I'd suggest dropping Dodge and taking Greater Trip and Improved Iron Will (<-- it only has to be useful once in a while to pay for itself, I think).

Not a combat feat, so no dice.

Good point. :-)

EDIT: Maybe Fortified Armor Training (Ultimate Combat)? How often do you get hit by critical hits?

Not often. Last scenario for instance (playing up into tier 8-9 at level 7), most of the enemies needed a 20 to hit me (I spent a lot of time using Combat Expertise). Against the REALLY nasty guy I kept him tripped (-4 to attacks) while staying in CE mode and he needed something pretty high to hit me.

Natural 20s happen, but odds of a confirmation are comfortably slim.

You already have Combat expertise so I don't see why you would swap dodge for it, do you mean Combat Reflexes?

Yeah, I meant Combat Reflexes.

Are you using a Heavy Flail, just wonder as you have a buckler. If you are then Tripping Strike at 9th level would be nice and grabbing Improved Critical would give you 17-20 critical threat ranger. Then swap dodge for Greater Trip so your critical does trip your opponent then you get AoO as well.

Nope, regular flail.

Now if you have just normal fail I'd I'd swap out for Combat Reflexes and take Greater Trip as well ditch the buckler for heavy shield. Increase your dex with the belt and that means more AoO and you are 1 AC better with the shield.

But the buckler means I can seamlessly switch to archery if the target is too far away to engage in melee. And occasionally I'll two-hand the flail (with a -1 to hit) for extra damage against a low-AC target.

The single extra point of AC is less important to me than that versatility.

Personally I'd swap out second chance over dodge. Fighters rarely ever miss their first attack. More often that not they are hitting on anything but a 1. But if you didn't take Second Chance as fighter feat you can't swap it out.

A mid-level fighter still misses sometimes. I used Second Chance three times yesterday in one fight alone. It also combos well with two-handing the flail or using Combat Expertise by mitigating the to-hit penalty. I picked it up at 6th and haven't regretted it.

I'd suggest dropping Dodge and taking Greater Trip and Improved Iron Will (<-- it only has to be useful once in a while to pay for itself, I think).

Not a combat feat, so no dice.

And yes, it was a typo for Combat Reflexes. Thanks for the catch; I've fixed it in an edit now.

my preference in this would be to drop dodge and pick up fury's fall and take greater trip as your normal 8th level fighter feat. this will help to make sure your trips work with an additional +5 to trip (assuming you increase your belt as you stated you planned on doing) and then your tripped opponent provokes aos from everyone around him including you. also with him being tripped you can use your ao to disarm him at his now lowered cmd due to being prone.

hope this is helpful might i also suggest that your 9 and 10 level feats look at power attack and furious focus. thanks

Hm, Fury's Fall is an interesting idea. Unfortunately, in PFS you have to have the sourcebook and I don't feel like buying that just for one feat. ;)

I kind of like pointing out to people that I don't have power attack, but maybe one of these days I'll take it.

And Furious Focus only works for two-handed attacks.

Depends what you are trying to do. Be more defensive? Gain more utility?

It's mostly just a question of whether I'd rather send people's weapons flying 15ft away, or get to take advantage of the AoO for both the trip AND the stand.

Improved initiative is always good.

Improved Initiative is sometimes good. It's good for characters who get a lot of value out of going first (like rogues, since you can sneak attack anyone who hasn't acted yet) and/or someone who already has a pretty decent initiative bonus (i.e., Reactionary for +2 and +3 or +4 from DEX).

Me going from +2 to +6 is far less significant than a rogue going from +6 to +10.

Well, I just hit 8th level (vanilla fighter - yes, vanilla: look it up, because you probably forgot how it works and you're going to "correct" me on things that will prove you didn't look it up) and I get another bonus feat. Not only that, but I have the option of swapping out a previous feat for a new one (something I only get the chance for at 4th, 8th, and 12th). Being a PFS guy, this is pretty much my only relevant chance to do this.

Here's my current stats:

What I'm thinking for 8th level is to take Greater Trip and then swap out Dodge for either Greater Disarm or Combat Reflexes. I can afford to upgrade my +2 CON belt to a +2 CON/DEX belt to make up for losing Dodge.

Please remember that this character already exists, so suggesting a different build just shows that you can't read. Little better is the suggestion of switching up all my gear that I've already bought.

But any thoughts on my feat decisions for 8th level would be appreciated. :)

Actually, my Use Door skill is most often employed to CLOSE the door.

Never underestimate the power of just closing the damn door.

Cledwyn the Steadfast wrote:

Man, you're making me feel impotent over here! I'll just console myself with my legendary +99 Use Door skill. ;)

my skinny, underfed, weak, Tiefling Wizard/rogue gets stuck picking door locks (only one in the party with Disable Device). And she fails her Use Door skill all the time. "I take 10 getting an '8'... do I get the door open? No? pass me the crow bar!" "Outta the way Peck!" says the guy with the +99 Open Door skill...

Note that I said nothing of locks.