Nethys

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Lets start with a fair warning, there's quite some potential for this thread to turn into yet another martial-caster disparity debate. This isn't my intent but due to the nature of the topic I'm practically obliged to refer to it for a variety of reasons. I don't want that to overshadow the thread's true purpose. When it does I'm out because those debates are tiresome. The debate does have merit so feel free to continue when that happens. I just don't want to get into it myself.

So! On to the actual purpose of this thread! The idea is to give spells prerequisites, like feats. This can take many forms. Here's the possibilities I thought of so far.

First off, the number of spells we give prerequisites to should be defined. All spells except cantrips, all spells except 1st level spells etc. Another is to give a select few spells prerequisites.
Personally, I like the idea to give all spells above 1st level prerequisites.

Second, what are these prerequisites going to be from the generic to the specific. For instance, spells could simply require a certain amount of lower level spells from a specific school based on the spell's level in order to be learned. This is quick and easy and wouldn't take up much space if it were ever to be printed in a book. In the same vein, we could use descriptors so that Lightning Bolt needs a particular amount of Electricity spells. This would require more space, though not that much if it would be a general rule. The most space-intensive method is to give spells individual prerequisites. This method has the greatest range of options available from the same generic prerequisites to feats, skills, abilities, BAB, Base Saves,Class features, races, you name it.

Personally, I'd love to give each spell individual prerequisites and use all the options available. I realize this is messy and unfriendly towards new players trying to grok it all, which is sad and I'd really rather not but I cannot have my cake and eat it too.

So why do this? There's quite a few reasons, really. First off, and here it comes, it can help limit the ease by which casters step on other classes' toes. For example, if Invisibility would require a certain amount of ranks in Stealth it makes it that much harder but not impossible. In some cases you could even use class features that these classes do not inherently possess forcing them to diversify and multiclass in order to access certain spells.
Next, in the same vein, because many resources, like skill ranks, are limited, it makes it harder for casters to 'do everything'. It forces them to make meaningful choices. I don't think it will, or should, make 'God-Wizards' a thing of the past, but it will diminish their ubiquity. A nice bonus, in my mind, is that it gives many casters more of a theme or flavor.
Third, an oddity of such restrictions is that it actually creates more design space. Currently spells should conform to a powerlevel according to their spell-level, but now you can create spells with an eye towards the difficulty of attaining their prerequisites. As an alternative, or maybe in addition to, having more room for spelldesign it can give room to design feats, classes, features, archetypes or races with these requirements in mind. Take gnomes for instance with their penchant for illusion magic. What if they could ignore (some) requirements for spells in that school?

I made this thread with wizards in mind. I think it shows. It makes a lot of sense, to me anyway, to require them to fulfill certain conditions representing them unlocking some arcane secret through, well, whatever it is the prerequisite requires, be it knowledge, devotion, experience or whatever. Its harder to justify spellrequirements for many other classes, especially those who are already limited in one way or another. I would suggest giving most classes some way to circumvent certain requirements, via their bloodlines, deities, patrons etc.

So, there you have it. So far anyway, thoughts are still cooking. What do you think?


In another thread in this subforum we're posed the question which god we would worship if we were to live in Golarion. Unsurprisingly very few people answered with evil deities. That made me wonder how those gods get their worshippers, defined as dedicated followers of the faith but not necessarily granted any power. Honestly it isn't hard to think of many possible reasons. Ignorance, fear, desire, ambition and obligation to name just a few. I'd like to discuss god x utilizing methods y and z to get people a through c.

Lets take Asmodeus to start us off, a relatively subtle deity compared to many others in the evil line-up he wants you to choose a life of captivity, to resign yourself of free will. Though Asmodeus isn't above tricking you into it he is more likely to manipulate you by tugging at your heartstrings, allowing him countless avenues to tempt you into submission, often at the low and high extremes of despair and hubris. Ultimately he offers you the power to transgress a limit at a steep price, though he's more than willing to offer a discount for those predisposed to his service. Of course, the price seems more than reasonable at first...

I don't like Asmodeus. More accurately, I hate him and what he represents. I cannot think of anything I hold more sacred than free will, mine or anyone else's. Even among gods of torture and murder the tyrant Asmodeus stands out as the supreme villain. I would never worship him.

Unless we'd make a deal.


Hi all. As the title says, I have a couple of questions concerned with the above. Lets just say I have an odd concept in mind...

Q1: Does the Wizard VMC's chosen school stack with the Arcanist's School Understanding Exploit? If so, at what level do the various powers kick in? How are 'powers' such as Divination's Forwarned calculated? If they don't stack can you select, say, Divination with one and Conjuration with the other?

Q2: Hybrid class rules specify that choices made once must match such choices if they are to be taken again, the example given is bloodlines. The Arcanist's Bloodline Development states the choice cannot be altered by an archetype. It also states that if you already have a bloodline it instead stacks. What happens if I start my career as a Crossblooded or Wildblooded Sorceror prior to taking a level of Arcanist and this exploit? Which of all these rules takes precedence?

Q2: A Sorceror can take Eldritch Heritage, even if it is already Crossblooded or Wildblooded. If an Arcanist who already has Bloodline Development selects this feat what happens? Is she forced to make the same choice (rendering the featselection a terribad choice) or not? How about the reverse (feat first, exploit later)? Does Bloodline Development stack with Eldritch Heritage for a full bloodline or would the rest of the featchain be required.

Q3: Both Crossblooded and Wildblooded are considered archetypes (so they don't stack, sadly). What about the Arcane Subschools, such as Scryer?

Q4: An Arcanist with the Unlettered Arcanist Archetype uses the Witch Spelllist. Can she use the Arcane Bloodline's New Arcana to add Sorceror/Wizard spells to her list, provided she gained it through the Bloodline Development class feature?

Q5: The Wizard VMC grants a Familiar at third level, if I'm an Arcanist with the Bloodline Exploit (or a Sorceror) can I make it into a Bloodline Familiar, despite never getting bloodline spells (right?!) or already possessing the 1st level power?
In a similar vein, can I make it into a School Familiar with the School Understanding exploit? Does my class level equal my wizard level for the purposes of selecting the (Greater) School Familiar feat too?

Q6: A Bloodline Familiar technically isn't an archtype, so can it stack with School Familiar?

Q7: Can I have a Tattoo Familiar, from the Tattooed Sorceror Archetype, be a Bloodline Familiar too?

Q8: Do any of the abilities of the Bloodline/School/Tattoo familiar transfer to an Improved Familiar?

Q9: If I have 1 level as an Unlettered Arcanist and 1 level as a Tattooed Sorceror can I still prepare spells when it is in tattoo form?

Q10: What slot does the Tattoo Familiar occupy for the purpose of the Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat?

Q11: If I Inscribe a Magic Tattoo on someone else can I still use it for myself? Basically, can I use my allies as a walking scroll rack? Can I inscribe such tattoos on flayed skin? Can I flay the skin after such a Tattoo has been made and still use it?

Q12: Can the Tattoo Familiar be moved to someone else, perhaps in conjunction with the Inscribe Magical Tattoo feat, while still being 'mine'?

Q13: Does Inscribe Magical Tattoo allow another caster to supply the spell for its creation? If so, am I still bound by the spellcompletion or trigger rules for using it as a Scroll/Wand/Staff? Can I change this by making it use-activated or having a commandword? Basically, is this within Inscribe Magical Tattoos capability?

Q14: Can an Arcanist with the Consume Magic Items Exploit consume tattoos made with Inscribe Magical Tattoo, provided they function like scrolls, potions, wands or staves? If so, can I consume those I've put on others?

Q15: Can I make tattoos of Explosive Runes? If so, can I make a Goblin suicideterrorist squad?


I'm creating an Arcanist for a homegame and I was wondering what others thought of the validity of taking the Bloodline Development and/or School Understanding exploits in combination with a dip in their respective classes in order to get complete access to them without having to spend points from the Arcanist's reservoir.
I'm well aware of the archetypes that perform a similar function, but these take up far too many exploits for my tastes (in addition to locking them in at specific levels).

I'm also aware that such a character would be 1 or even 2 levels behind in its spell-progression. And that this is somehow considered a sin here ^^ Can this be overcome?

Are there any specific combinations that prove very powerful or synergistic? Which are the trappiest of traps? Which races, feats, traits, spells or, well, other things can be used to improve upon this concept?

I have no desire to make a character that is as optimized as can be, but I don't want to make a character that falls so far behind as to render himself useless either.