Kitsune Spell Casting in Fox Shape

I can't find where this has been definitively answered—

Can a Kitsune in Fox Shape:
1) Speak known languages as normal?
2) Cast spells (with eschew materials)?

Beast Shape does not specify the inability to speak or cast spells, only the wild shape ability which itself says it functions like Beast Shape except where specified.

1) No, you can't.
2) Only if the spells don't have verbal or somatic components.

You have the form of a fox.
Unless you have an ability that allows you to speak in the form of a fox, you can't speak.
Unless you have the ability to make somatic components in the form of a fox you can make the appropriate gestures.

Fox Shape

Source Dragon Empires Primer pg. 5
You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.

Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.

Benefit: You can take the form of a fox (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 3 112) whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.

Beast Shape II

School transmutation (polymorph)
This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type.

When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.

Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.

Somatic (S): A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.[/qute]

Foxes don't speak.
Foxes don't have hands.

OTOH psychic spellcasting works since you can provide thought and emotion components.

Since you don't have hands and this isn't wild shape somatic components are unavailable, but there is at least one magic item (ring of eloquence) and one spell (beastspeak) which allow you to talk as a fox.

Thank you both, this was very helpful! So you could with meta magic do it as well, silent spell + still spell too?

Here's something worth checking: what do Druids, Shifters and other Wild-Shaped characters do with spellcasting?

They use the feat Natural Spell. But it is specific for wild shape. It does not work with any other forms of shapeshifting.

Yes, I’m building a bard so thinking through my options! Appreciate all the feedback!

Spells with verbal components don’t specify what language to use. Can’t he say them in ‘fox’?

Silent spell doesn't work for bards, specifically. Still spell does and the ring of eloquence should work. Without hands using a metamagic rod is going to be a problem so you'd need the actual feat.

Spells with verbal components don’t specify what language to use. Can’t he say them in ‘fox’?

Fox isn't a language. There's something about the natural sounds an animal produces not being enough somewhere too IIRC.

I never noticed that about silent spell for bard! This is excellent thank you.

I could have sworn there was a feat (or maybe a wondrous item) that acted like Natural Spell for classes other than druid. I remember reading it not too long ago but can't find it now.

Years ago there was a PFS player who made a kitsune oracle with the deaf curse (making all his spells Silent), took the Eschew Materials feat, and hunted through the books for spells without somatic components. He would spend every adventure in fox form the entire time, pretending to be someone else's familiar and staring at people to cast spells. Silly concept, but a good player and lots of fun to play with.

I could have sworn there was a feat (or maybe a wondrous item) that acted like Natural Spell for classes other than druid. I remember reading it not too long ago but can't find it now.

Years ago there was a PFS player who made a kitsune oracle with the deaf curse (making all his spells Silent), took the Eschew Materials feat, and hunted through the books for spells without somatic components. He would spend every adventure in fox form the entire time, pretending to be someone else's familiar and staring at people to cast spells. Silly concept, but a good player and lots of fun to play with.

I am surprised it was allowed in PFS, as it is extremely exploitable. In theory, the character can't hear the other characters so he can't coordinate during combat and out of combat, it requires people knowing to know sign or write everything. In reality, the player hears everything and react accordingly, essentially negating the effect of the curse.

No reason a deaf character cannot read lips. Deaf people in the real world do it all the time. It does not totally negate the issue of communication especially in combat, but out of combat on a one to one basis it would at least allow the character to understand others.

Diego Rossi wrote:

Years ago there was a PFS player who made a kitsune oracle with the deaf curse (making all his spells Silent), took the Eschew Materials feat, and hunted through the books for spells without somatic components. He would spend every adventure in fox form the entire time, pretending to be someone else's familiar and staring at people to cast spells. Silly concept, but a good player and lots of fun to play with.

I am surprised it was allowed in PFS, as it is extremely exploitable. In theory, the character can't hear the other characters so he can't coordinate during combat and out of combat, it requires people knowing to know sign or write everything. In reality, the player hears everything and react accordingly, essentially negating the effect of the curse.

PFS has a campaign-specific rule to allow people to play deaf oracles. You can spend one rank of linguistics to learn how to read lips (in all languages you know). Automatic within 10 feet in calm situations. At distance or in combat, etc., you have to make Perception checks with the usual modifiers.

Like almost everything else, you have to rely on the players being honest and honorable. In this particular case, no one was ever going to have reason to accuse the player of exploitation. He was a blast to play with regardless of the character.

No reason a deaf character cannot read lips. Deaf people in the real world do it all the time. It does not totally negate the issue of communication especially in combat, but out of combat on a one to one basis it would at least allow the character to understand others.

Out of combat, sure, even if it will take time. But in combat? A DC of 10 plus modifier is extremely easy. And 1 skill point is a negligible cost.

In a city/social campaign, I would gladly pay it to be able to "overhear" people conversations. Especially as Pathfinder lacks rules for facing.

Just to point it out, it is better than most spells for listening to people's conversations, if you have a line of sight. Not that being better than spells is bad.

In reality lip reading works well for understanding someone who wants you to understand them. Lip reading someone who is unaware of you is actually pretty difficult. Trying to lip read someone who is trying not to be overheard is nearly impossible. When someone is speaking quietly it changes the movement of the lips and makes it a lot more difficult to understand.

Like you said pathfinder does not have facing rules. The PFS rules are to allow a player to be able to play a deaf oracle. An oracle with the deafness curse may not be completely deaf. Someone classified as profoundly deaf can still hear some sounds and but not much.

you could also ask your GM if natural spell would work for your fox form. (if its not PFS)

Beastspeak allows you to speak in an animal form.
(make into a magical item maybe)

Somatic components might be an issue still.

There is also an arcanist exploit that functions as the Natural Spell feat for that class.

But neither that nor the Beastspeak spell are available to bards.

However, if he hasn't built his character yet, he could go for a skald (very close to a bard in terms of abilities) and gain access to Beastspeak via Spell Kenning and either the Expanded Spell Kenning feat or Runes of the Old Faith.