Multiclassing and Archetypes

Friday, July 27, 2018

One of the trickiest parts of the rules is multiclassing. At its heart, multiclassing allows you to build almost any character you can envision, taking parts from multiple classes to build the perfect version of your character. Making these rules play well with the rest of the game, unfortunately, has always been a challenge. Concepts that really should work together just fell flat, leaving you with a character who could not perform at its level and keep pace with single class characters. This was especially the case for certain classes, like most spellcasters, that had a central class feature or features that you would fall sharply behind in if you weren't constantly progressing in that class.

Suffice to say, when it came time to redesign the system for the Pathfinder Playtest, we knew that multiclassing needed work.

Then came the rules for archetypes. The new design for this emblematic part of the game allows archetypes to be taken by any class, so you can decide exactly how much you want to invest into an alternative path for your character. The more we worked on that system, the more it began to sound like it shared almost exactly the same goals as multiclassing. Our thought was, shouldn't they just be the same system?

Multiclass archetypes are one of the more experimental parts of the Pathfinder Playtest. So much so that there are only four of them in the book, one for cleric, one for fighter, one for rogue, and one for wizard. Just like ordinary archetypes, you must take a special dedication feat to gain access to the archetype, but you cannot be of the same class as the archetype (so you can't take the rogue dedication feat if you are already a rogue). Let's take a look at one of these feats.

Wizard Dedication Feat 2

Archetype, Dedication, Multiclass

Prerequisites Intelligence 16, trained in Arcana


You cast spells like a wizard and gain a spellbook containing four arcane cantrips of your choice. You gain access to the Cast a Spell activity and the Material Casting, Somatic Casting, and Verbal Casting actions. You can prepare two cantrips each day from those found in your spellbook. You're trained in spell rolls and spell DCs for casting arcane spells and in attacks you make with arcane spells. Your key spellcasting ability for these spells is Intelligence. You can use wands, scrolls, and staves, but only for spells of a spell level you can cast. Arcana is a signature skill for you.

Special You cannot select another dedication feat until you have gained two other feats from the wizard archetype.

Right away, this lets you cast a few simple cantrips; allows you to use wands, scrolls, and staves; and makes Arcana a signature skill for you (meaning you can advance your proficiency in the skill to master and legendary). Like other dedication feats, once you've taken Wizard Dedication, you gain access to other wizard archetype feats, each of which makes you a more powerful master of the arcane arts. Take a look.

Basic Wizard Spellcasting Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisites Wizard Dedication


Add two level 1 spells to your spellbook. You gain a single level1 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 1 spell from your spellbook. At 6th level, add two level 2 spells to your spellbook, and you gain a level 2 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 2 spell from your spellbook. At 8th level, add two level 3 spells to your spellbook, and you gain a level 3 spell slot that you can use to prepare a level 3 spell from your spellbook.

Even though you can cast spells, the spell level of your cantrips and arcane powers is half your level rounded up.

This feat pays dividends all the way up through 8th level, giving you more spells you can cast, and if you take it later on in your career, you get all of that spellcasting all at once. Better still, there are additional feats you can take to gain spells of up to 8th level! But let's say you want to be even more of a wizard—you want to get some of the other class features that make wizards fun to play. Take a look at these feats.

Arcane School Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisite Wizard Dedication


Select one school of magic from those found in the wizard class. You gain the level 1 school power tied to your school and a pool of Spell Points equal to your Intelligence modifier that you can use to cast that power.

If you already have a pool of Spell Points, use the higher ability score to determine the pool, as normal, and your Spell Point pool increases by 1.

Basic Arcana Feat 4

Archetype

Prerequisites Wizard Dedication


Gain a level 1 or level 2 wizard feat of your choice.

Advanced Arcana Feat 6

Archetype

Prerequisites Basic Arcana


Gain one wizard feat. For the purposes of meeting its prerequisites, your wizard level is equal to half your level.

Special You can select this feat more than once. Each time you select it, you gain a new wizard feat.

There's even a feat that gives you additional spell slots of every level except for your two highest, giving you more versatility in your spellcasting. It's important to note that these powers come at the cost of some of the flexibility of your primary class, but not at the cost of core features. A cleric who multiclasses into fighter will keep all of her spellcasting abilities, but she will have to trade out some of the feats that allow her to be better at casting heal or at using domain powers in exchange for increased proficiency in weapons and armor, added hit points, and the ability to make attacks of opportunity. You might even choose to multiclass into several classes. You could play a cleric who, in addition to all her cleric spells, also has up to 8th-level druid spells and 8th-level wizard spells, though such a three-tradition spellcaster would have few cleric feats to speak of!

Well, that about covers the rules for multiclassing in the Pathfinder Playtest. If these archetypes work, you can expect to see one for each class in the final version of the game, giving you the flexibility to build characters that draw on more than one class to make their concept click. We hope you'll give these a try during the playtest and let us know what you think!

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Tags: Pathfinder Playtest
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thflame wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Disk Elemental wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
yep, dipping led to broken characters, where as true multiclassing meant you couldn't do enough.

A bizzare stance to take, when the most hideously broken PCs have always been the Single-Classed fullcasters.

Now we're going to see these full-casters being able to take toys from other classes, at little loss to themselves. If a Wizard can get into Eldritch Knight without losing spell progression, why wouldn't they?

This is not true.

A level 1 sorcerer / level x Wizard was always stronger than a level x wizard.

Would you care to explain this, as I am fairly certain that your sorcerer spells/slots are completely separate from your wizard spells/slots. The only thing you would gain is a bloodline power from the sorcerer (which is usually a garbage melee based ability), eschew materials (which is covered with a spell component pouch), and a bloodline arcana, which is kinda meh and situational.

Crossblooded Sorcerer gets you two arcanas, which give blasters large amounts of stacking damage and give save-or-suck casters +2 DC. You trade your bloodline power out with one of the non-archetype Sorcerer options- at worst, a small upgrade to your familiar. I think there was a blasting option, too.


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Unless it fundamentally unbalances things, I would like to see multiclass archetypes and general archetypes not count against each other for the purposes of needing enough feats to select a new archetype. For example a rogue with the pirate archetype still being able to multiclass into something without first having to wait to pick up two more pirate feats. Otherwise, I see a lot of cool character concepts being totally unavailable until higher levels.

If a player were to take a multiclass and a non-multiclass archetype quickly, it would be fairly expressive even at low levels while still taking just as high of a level to take a 3rd archetype of any kind.

This would certainly grant more versatility, but would there be a problem with 2 early dedication feats being to powerful? Or just over complicating the rules?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I want to try the rogue(wizard). I had a build for one after Unchained came out, but my GM wasn't comfortable with VMC rules.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All I want to know is: Did the healer Barbarian have the Cleric multiclass archetype?
Yep. Some of you guessed it right away because I described her as unhealthily obsessed with Gorum.
This... is really disappointing. Even having read the justifications and clarifications through the thread, it still feels like it's cheating to know that the "Healer Barbarian" was still at least part Cleric. Oh well, just that much more reason to try my own hand at a non-Cleric Healer build. Probably Sorc or Alchemist.
It's also important to note that the barbarian came in a post with a list of all the classes I had seen do some healing, in addition to the specification that she was very weird compared to the others; she became popular on that thread due to people being interested in the barbarian that healed. It's not like I posted in the thread about healers and made it just about barbarians.

I get it, I really do. Still disappointed. It has invigorated me to put my own hand to it and report *thoroughly* on how it goes though, so that's something. Gods know that if I prove less than capable at being a successful healer without Cleric it *will* be coming up in reports as something to keep in mind, I enjoy healing and tend to dislike Clerics so this is something I have very personal stake in making sure it does have fully viable alternatives that don't require being Deific... or Prepared Casting in general if at all possible.


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Did the barbarian heal, or the cleric?
Is the cat alive or dead?
Why did the cockatrice cross the road?

Edit:Comedic values required calibration.


Qazyr wrote:

Is there really a point to the Basic Arcana and Advanced Arcana feats, if all they do is allow you to pick another feat? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just add a clause to Wizard Dedication

"At level 4 and above, you may take Wizard feats (as a Wizard of half your level) instead of your base class's."
Otherwise, you end up with every class requiring two feats that all follow the same template.

Also, not really a fan of the Int 16 requirement for Wizard Dedication. 5E is bad enough with requiring 13 in the stat; 16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?) or you're limited to only classes that share the same focus. RE: needing to be a "prodigy" to pick up a new class so quickly, two things:
1) Leveling up during a time skip. High stat requirement makes no such allowances.
2) Who's to say the character didn't have the basic training earlier, and is only now progressed to the point of being able to use it effectively? "My master wielded sword and spell together, and taught me to do the same. What is this 'multiclassing' you speak of?"

With the new stat generation method, all characters should have an 18 and 16 or at least two 16s.


So the real question is, is Douena a cleric with rogue dedication or a rogue with cleric dedication?

I guess I'm going to have to build her both ways to find out.


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Quick question, sorry if it's too early to say: will wild shaping be multiclassable?


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The problem with this form of multiclassing is that it always restricts the character to receiving specific "key" abilities from the class in question, and side abilities (or skills, hit points, weapon/armor profs, qualifiers for feats, etc) are always ignored or abandoned.

And guaranteeing access to all of those via a feat-based system isn't going to solve the issue, as there is always a limit on the number of feats you can take (effectively "capping" your ability to advance in the second "class"). And in doing so, you've eliminated a large chunk of your ability to apply new archetypes, or build towards a combat build.

Your paladin turned monk will have to retrain in order to really pick up monk status; your fighter/rogue will forever be one or the other.

Upside? You can "multiclass" full progression spellcasters now.

Overall I feel this is a rather large step backward, towards the "boxed in" style of classes that PF2e seems to otherwise be trying to avoid.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Hey everyone, it seems like the discussion on healing is a sharp tangent from a multiclassing blog (especially since many of the posts have moved on to explicitly not count multiclassing) and is also laser-focused on the mummy rot affliction (which incidentally doesn't do anything resembling 6 Constitution damage in this playtest anyway). Maybe move to the healing thread from before that already had a big mummy rot discussion or make a new thread?

All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.

Designer

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Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)

In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Shinigami02 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's also important to note that the barbarian came in a post with a list of all the classes I had seen do some healing, in addition to the specification that she was very weird compared to the others; she became popular on that thread due to people being interested in the barbarian that healed. It's not like I posted in the thread about healers and made it just about barbarians.
I get it, I really do. Still disappointed. It has invigorated me to put my own hand to it and report *thoroughly* on how it goes though, so that's something. Gods know that if I prove less than capable at being a successful healer without Cleric it *will* be coming up in reports as something to keep in mind, I enjoy healing and tend to dislike Clerics so this is something I have very personal stake in making sure it does have fully viable alternatives that don't require being Deific... or Prepared Casting in general if at all possible.

What class are you going to start with?


Douena Trestleben wrote:

So the real question is, is Douena a cleric with rogue dedication or a rogue with cleric dedication?

I guess I'm going to have to build her both ways to find out.

Well, consider this: do you want Doeuna to have access to first level spells at level 1 or level 4? And do you want more than 1/day?


DFAnton wrote:
Quick question, sorry if it's too early to say: will wild shaping be multiclassable?

I'm neither psychic nor am I a Paizo employee, but since I've heard tell of wild shape being available as a feat, and these feats giving more feats, my guess is probably.

Dark Archive

DFAnton wrote:
Quick question, sorry if it's too early to say: will wild shaping be multiclassable?

If the druid feats matches the wizard one it should be as there is a feat to grant a feat (tad confusing wording) and they mentioned wildshape is a druid feat.


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Voss wrote:
Douena Trestleben wrote:

So the real question is, is Douena a cleric with rogue dedication or a rogue with cleric dedication?

I guess I'm going to have to build her both ways to find out.

Well, consider this: do you want Doeuna to have access to first level spells at level 1 or level 4? And do you want more than 1/day?

I'd say it's too soon to tell, because we haven't see the other half of the picture. We need to see the other multiclasses.


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Barbie druid the anger bear when?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
So how do we do "Change of Heart" type multiclassings, like Paladins who fell, or Clerics who lost faith in their deity, or Druids who stopped revering nature. Just "Retrain those class levels"?

That depends on the scope of the retraining rules. Since you can't have x levels in one class or y levels in another class, the only way to handle the "Change of Heart" scenario would be some sort of retraining that changes your class completely. Presumably, this sort of change will become harder as a character gains levels.

I am hoping that any such system, if it exists, is set up to give some sort of discount to a character who has taken appropriate feats to lessen the distance covered -- for example, a fighter with wizard dedication feats could more easily become a wizard with fighter dedication feats.


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Additionally, this is another instance where not being able to pick an archetype until level 2 betrays people who want to do this for a concept. Your Magus is either not proficient in his preferred weapon or doesn't have any spells when he begins his career, depending on which class he starts with. The fact that multi-class character concepts could not come online until well into the campaign was one of the biggest issues with PF1 multi-classing and this does very little to solve that problem.

Grand Lodge

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I like it.

Excited to see what the multiclass details for Fighter and Rogue look like in the playtest.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).

That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.

Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Hey everyone, it seems like the discussion on healing is a sharp tangent from a multiclassing blog (especially since many of the posts have moved on to explicitly not count multiclassing) and is also laser-focused on the mummy rot affliction (which incidentally doesn't do anything resembling 6 Constitution damage in this playtest anyway). Maybe move to the healing thread from before that already had a big mummy rot discussion or make a new thread?
All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.

Sure, I'd say that's a perfectly germane topic of conversation for this thread. Heck, even talking about the limitations or advantages of healing using multiclassing for spells (and thus being behind on spell level compared to a full caster) would be on topic. But once we're talking about single-classed characters and healing, that's beyond the multiclassing blog, I think.


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I imagine Rogue would be pretty good on Ranger (with their agile weapon synergy) and Monk (sneak attack with agile fists after tripping).


KingOfAnything wrote:
Shinigami02 wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
It's also important to note that the barbarian came in a post with a list of all the classes I had seen do some healing, in addition to the specification that she was very weird compared to the others; she became popular on that thread due to people being interested in the barbarian that healed. It's not like I posted in the thread about healers and made it just about barbarians.
I get it, I really do. Still disappointed. It has invigorated me to put my own hand to it and report *thoroughly* on how it goes though, so that's something. Gods know that if I prove less than capable at being a successful healer without Cleric it *will* be coming up in reports as something to keep in mind, I enjoy healing and tend to dislike Clerics so this is something I have very personal stake in making sure it does have fully viable alternatives that don't require being Deific... or Prepared Casting in general if at all possible.
What class are you going to start with?

Either Sorcerer or Alchemist to start. Probably gonna try Alchemist first, see how possible it is to be a healer completely without "magic" getting involved. If that's not satisfactory I'll likely look at either Bard or Sorc, and probably Druid will be my last ditch effort (putting of my much-loathed Prepared Casting as long as possible).


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).

Firstly, love the idea - can't wait to see how it works out.

It does feel a little bit more (too much?) like 2e D&D though... Where your stats precluded you from taking certain classes.
Why can't you be a somewhat lesser part-wizard? Why are you enforcing that you have to be a "talented" wizard?
Is there a balance issue I'm missing? So much of 2e has been "play the character you want to play" - this seems to be a bit of a change in that.

Liberty's Edge

I'm actually very okay with how this multiclassing works.
I was cautiously optimistic but there are two things that makes this good - the first is the amount of options and the second is the freedom to choose when you get the muliclass feats.

Like others, I'm wary about how much stuff has devotion but I get why it's there. It will be interesting to see how much chance there is to explore it in the playtest.


Looks fine to me. Hopefully in the actual CRB we get archetypes for all classes and that moving forward all new classes come with archetype feats. I really like that the wizard archetype gives enough magic to feel like a magical dabbler, and I hope there are low-level spell choices that are relevant at later levels. I wonder how a character who multiclassed as much as possible would look. I'm counting one class as well as 4 archetypes. Which could be an interesting take on the one-man party, a bard (the iconic 5th man) with experience as a wizard, fighter, cleric, and rogue.


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The more stuff I see, the more I think that archetypes need to be on-by-default at level 1, and they just make up a separate pool of feats from the class feats.

Scarab Sages

Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).
That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.

Considering you can start the game with two stats at 16, and you don't need super high stats to be good at your chosen profession, this does not seem like much of an issue to me. I think its completely viable to have a fighter with a 16 Int at level 1 with the intention of taking the Wizard Dedication feat.

Designer

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Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).
That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.

If you don't start with 16, you can still grab your higher spells at 5th via retraining with a little downtime.


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Tallow wrote:
Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).
That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.
Considering you can start the game with two stats at 16, and you don't need super high stats to be good at your chosen profession, this does not seem like much of an issue to me. I think its completely viable to have a fighter with a 16 Int at level 1 with the intention of taking the Wizard Dedication feat.

If the "every +1 matters" meme is true then you'll never want to start with less than an 18 in your to-hit attribute. I'm pretty sure you can still get a 16 in your secondary attribute in that case, though.

Designer

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).
That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.
Considering you can start the game with two stats at 16, and you don't need super high stats to be good at your chosen profession, this does not seem like much of an issue to me. I think its completely viable to have a fighter with a 16 Int at level 1 with the intention of taking the Wizard Dedication feat.
I'm pretty sure you can still get a 16 in your secondary attribute in that case, though.

That's correct. We could have required a 14 if we wanted to give a big leg up to dwarves, halflings, goblins, and gnomes in multiclassing (since their only advantage over humans is that if you line up your top stats with your ancestry just right, they can keep their flaw at 8 to get a tertiary 14 without sacrificing primary or secondary stats; elves could in theory if you want 8 Con).


As far as proper multiclassing discussion (rather than the healing tangent, sorry about continuing that ^.^; ) goes, I've got a couple things I'm gonna toy with for sure.

For one, Fighter with Wizard feats, Magus is one of my fav classes. Maybe see how far I can push Spell Point Powers.

Also maybe a Monk/Fighter. And maybe try a Sorc/Fighter as the counterpart to the Fighter-main Magus.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Voss wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).
That doesn't seem like the issue to me. If you don't start at level 1 with the 16 for the level 2 dedication feat, you can't multiclass at all until 6th level. Which means no spells until 8th. Over a third of your adventuring career is already over unless you pre-build for a second 16 stat and pre-plan your feats precisely. And your (not even handful of) spells are terribly off what could even vaguely be considered level appropriate.
If you don't start with 16, you can still grab your higher spells at 5th via retraining with a little downtime.

Wow, um. You made me feel worse about that.

I hadn't caught that retconning was in the game. 'You were a Multiclass wizard all along' makes me even less happy.

I get that some people really like retraining as a protection from trap feats and bad decisions, but it's the kind of video game feature that really aggravates me. Doesn't connect to the world or make any kind of sense. 'Because I went to chainsaw training, I've now completely forgotten C# programming!'

Grand Lodge

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As a player, I love the idea of this modular system.

When I take a step back however.. I'm pretty worried that the Multiclass Dedication feats are way more powerful then the actual class feats that players would normally select.

Liberty's Edge

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Arachnofiend wrote:
All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.

Uh...what indications do we have that a single Fighter Dedication Feat gets you all that? It's all something you can get, sure, but one Feat? Nothing says that anywhere.

Arachnofiend wrote:
Additionally, this is another instance where not being able to pick an archetype until level 2 betrays people who want to do this for a concept. Your Magus is either not proficient in his preferred weapon or doesn't have any spells when he begins his career, depending on which class he starts with. The fact that multi-class character concepts could not come online until well into the campaign was one of the biggest issues with PF1 multi-classing and this does very little to solve that problem.

You couldn't really grab a second Class in PF1 until 2nd level, either.


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Depending on how well this works, it might be fun to have a wizard branch out into fighter just to wear armor.

Silver Crusade

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Can we please call Spell Level another way?

Caster level, spell level, character level, it keeps adding up.


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So is there a break in the system I cant think of from lifting the ability score requirement? It just seems... pointless. I cant imagine how a ten strength wizard spending a feat (and locking himself out of any other archetypes until he spends three other feats) to use a longsword and half plate is that disastrous. Even if you can just retrain them in later it still means you don't have your character concept started right away and... it's just needlessly complicated.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Qazyr wrote:
16 means you need some exceptional stats (how many characters do you have with two or more 16+ attributes?)
In the playtest, there is only 1 possible character build that doesn't have at least 2 16+ stats by level 5 (starting with 18 12 12 12 12 12, literally trying to avoid having a 16 in a second stat as much as possible). Even then and if you keep trying to avoid more 16s as much as possible, you still have 20 16 14 14 14 14 at level 10).

I suppose I'm still in the PF1/3.5 mindset, wherein the characters have a single "god-stat" that every attribute increase goes into, and then the other five are at most 14s from level 1 to 20. Sounds like PF2 characters will become considerably more super-human (or -elven, or -dwarven, etc) than PF1.


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I see a lot of question dodging happening about how dedication feats are feat taxes. I'd really appreciate one of the devs explaining why:

1) You can't use wands/scrolls/etc without being the appropriate type of caster or having a dedication feat. This is a step back from PF1.

2) Why you have to take a dedication feat to get access to the feats you want in the first place.

3) Why you have to take 2 feats in your dedication feat tree before you can take another dedication feat.

4) In terms of the Basic Arcana and Advance Arcana feats, why does our level only count as half? These class feats were designed to be balanced for the levels a class can take them, no? If I burn a class feat at level 12 to get a different class' level 6 class feat, aren't I trading a level 12 ability for a level 6 ability? Won't that make my character weaker than other characters?


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.
Uh...what indications do we have that a single Fighter Dedication Feat gets you all that? It's all something you can get, sure, but one Feat? Nothing says that anywhere.

Mark says it upthread. "The bard in my playtest game is loving spending only on feat on fighter dedication to get proficiency in martial weapons and all three categories of armor. Handy!"

It seems the cantrips you get with the wizard dedication feat scale with you though so they seem like solid choices. Now I'm a little worried that everyone will want to take a multiclass archetype since these dedication feats seem so powerful.

Dark Archive

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I am curious to the thought process behind locking archetypes, prestige and multi-class all behind the same limit dedication. If I wanted to become a rogue pirate who learned some casting I have to ether take most pirate things before even looking a spells or become a pretty good caster before I get my sea-legs.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.
Uh...what indications do we have that a single Fighter Dedication Feat gets you all that? It's all something you can get, sure, but one Feat? Nothing says that anywhere.

I may have misunderstood something that was said earlier, but I thought it was confirmed that that's what the dedication feat is.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Additionally, this is another instance where not being able to pick an archetype until level 2 betrays people who want to do this for a concept. Your Magus is either not proficient in his preferred weapon or doesn't have any spells when he begins his career, depending on which class he starts with. The fact that multi-class character concepts could not come online until well into the campaign was one of the biggest issues with PF1 multi-classing and this does very little to solve that problem.
You couldn't really grab a second Class in PF1 until 2nd level, either.

...Yes? That's what my point was. Not being able to do a hybrid concept from level one was my personal biggest complaint with PF1 multiclassing and this change does nothing to help with that issue.

Sovereign Court

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I just realized... The shield cantrip acts like a shield that takes no hand, and it only requires a verbal action.

I can imagine already two handed weapon fighters with the shield cantrip that scales and feat specialization to use that magic shield overing next to the fighter.

It might take 2 feats, but I'd like to see if the fighter could use that magic shield as a regular shield for his feats.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
All right. Should we talk about how this system massively favors casters who want to steal martial stuff over martials who want to steal caster stuff (or worse, martials who don't want to cast spells at all)? The Wizard/Fighter gets full plate and the martial weapon of his choice out of a single feat while the Fighter/Wizard gets... a few cantrips.
Uh...what indications do we have that a single Fighter Dedication Feat gets you all that? It's all something you can get, sure, but one Feat? Nothing says that anywhere.
Mark Seifter, Page 1 wrote:
The bard in my playtest game is loving spending only on feat on fighter dedication to get proficiency in martial weapons and all three categories of armor. Handy!

I'm guessing that scaling those proficiencies is probably a feat (or feats) in its own right, but it does get you at least basic proficiency.


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Marcus Steelfeather wrote:

Can we please call Spell Level another way?

Caster level, spell level, character level, it keeps adding up.

I agree spell level should be changed but I think the concept of caster level has been removed. You have your spell proficiency which is dependent upon your character level now instead.


Arachnofiend wrote:
If the "every +1 matters" meme is true then you'll never want to start with less than an 18 in your to-hit attribute. I'm pretty sure you can still get a 16 in your secondary attribute in that case, though.

I'm planning on a monk who starts with 3 16s, so I have 3 18s at level 5 and 3 20s at level 15. I figure you'll be down a +1 only half the time.


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Cyrad wrote:

I am not a fan of this system.

Not only does it have the same issues I have for the archetype system, but also it feels clunky with all the awkward feat taxes (why does Basic Arcana need to exist? Why can't there just be a feat that gives you a wizard feat with a level restriction?). It stinks of how 4th Edition D&D handled multiclassing with its awkward multiclass feats.

I don't understand why this needs to be implemented as archetypes. Given that the math has changed and classes are less front-loaded, why can't multiclassing work as it did in 1.0?

With what we know of the system so far, I feel you should have many better tools than this at your disposal to implement multiclassing.

Because the Multiclass system in Pathfinder 1 was broken. You either had situations where multiclassing ended up with an inferior character that lost out on powers and abilities as a result of multiclassing, or with an uber character who thanks to powergaming had abilities a straight build could only dream of and could never beat.

We've seen examples posted here on this very forum discussion. The current Multiclass system is broken and should be scrapped. I'd rather we didn't have any multiclass at all, or go back to the 1st Edition AD&D dual-class system, than keep the 1st Edition Multiclass system. That's how broken it is.

This new system might have a class "weakened" slightly but in turn provide new abilities by having you utilizing Class Feats... but don't forget, Class Feats are not General Feats, and both of those are not Ancestry Feats. That sounds far better than the old system.


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kaineblade83 wrote:

I really like this idea in theory, and want to see more from it. My big concern is Fighter, though.

Presumably the dedication feats are class feats, which fighters get every level, yes? So what's stopping a fighter from doing everything and still having some class feats for their own base class?

They get their weapon proficiency increase baseline so they wouldn't need to feat out for that, meanwhile they also have 8th level spellcasting in 2 other classes, if they'd like, and some rogue skills. I know there's a dedication limit for the feats, but still, 20 levels of class feats doesn't make that feel totally like a stopgap.

I'm absolutely on board with this and I want to see where it goes, as I said, I'm just voicing concerns I have. I know we haven't seen the full system yet and there may be reasons NOT to be that monster I mentioned building above, but it's worrisome to imagine it'd be easily achievable for fighter; does that make sense?

I mean, God forbid a Fighter have any nice things at all, am I right? Its about time someone stopped the absolute Martial degeneracy and oppression that's been happening since the start of D&D 3rd edition!

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