Fighter Class Preview

Monday, March 19, 2018

Over the past 2 weeks, we've tried to give you a sense of what Pathfinder Second Edition is all about, but now it's time to delve into some details on the classes. From now until the game releases in August, we'll go through the classes one by one, pausing now and then to look at various rules and systems. Today, let's take a look at one of the most foundational classes in the game: the fighter.

The fighter was one of the first classes we redesigned, alongside the rogue, cleric, and wizard. We knew that we wanted these four to work well in concert with each other, with the fighter taking on the role of primary combat character, good at taking damage and even better at dealing damage. The fighter has to be the best with weapons, using his class options to give him an edge with his weapons of choice. The fighter also has to be mobile, able to get into the fray quickly and hold the line, allowing less melee-oriented characters time to get into position and use their abilities without have to fend off constant attacks.

Let's start by looking at some of the features shared by all fighters.

Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

First up is attacks of opportunity. This feature allows you to spend your reaction to strike a creature within your reach that tries to manipulate an object (like drinking a potion), make a ranged attack, or move away from you. This attack is made with a –2 penalty, but it doesn't take the multiple attack penalty from other strikes you attempt on your turn. Other classes can get this ability—and numerous monsters will as well—but only the fighter starts with it a core feature. Fighters also have feat choices that can make their attacks of opportunity more effective.

Next up, at 3rd level, you gain weapon mastery, which increases your proficiency rank with one group of weapons to master. Your proficiency rank increases to legendary at 13th level, making you truly the best with the weapons of your choice. At 19th level, you become a legend with all simple and martial weapons!

The fighter gets a number of other buffs and increases as well, but one I want to call out in particular is battlefield surveyor, which increases your Perception proficiency rank to master (you start as an expert), and gives you an additional +1 bonus when you roll Perception for initiative, helping you be first into the fight!

As mentioned in the blog last week, the real meat behind the classes is in their feats and (as of this post), the fighter has the largest selection of feats out of all the classes in the game! Let's take a look at some.

You've probably already heard about Sudden Charge. You can pick up this feat at 1st level. When you spend two actions on it, this feat allows you to move up to twice your speed and deliver a single strike. There's no need to move in a straight line and no AC penalty—you just move and attack! This feat lets the fighter jump right into the thick of things and make an immediate impact.

Next let's take a look at Power Attack. This feat allows you to spend two actions to make a single strike that deals an extra die of damage. Instead of trading accuracy for damage (as it used to work), you now trade out an action you could have used for a far less accurate attack to get more power on a roll that is more likely to hit.

As you go up in level, some of the feats really allow you to mix things up. Take the 4th-level feat Quick Reversal, for example. If you are being flanked and you miss with your second or third attack against one of the flankers, this feat lets you redirect the attack to the other target and reroll it, possibly turning a miss into a hit!

We've talked before about how fun and tactical shields are in the game. To recap, you take an action to raise your shield and get its Armor Class and touch Armor Class bonuses, and then you can block incoming damage with a reaction while the shield is raised. At 6th level, fighters can take the feat Shield Warden, which allows them to use their shield to block the damage taken by an adjacent ally. At 8th, they can even get an extra reaction each turn, just to use shield block one additional time. (And yes, they can spend this extra reaction on another use of Shield Warden.) At 14th level, a fighter can use their shield to protect themself from dragon's breath and fireballs, gaining their shield's bonus to Reflex saves.

The fighter also has a wide variety of options with ranged weapons, allowing you to deal more damage up close or fire more than one arrow at a time. I foresee a lot of fighters taking Debilitating Shot, which causes a foe to be slowed if the attack hits (causing it to lose one action on its next turn).

And all this is a small sample. We've made a conscious effort to give fighters a number of paths they can pursue using their feats: focusing on shields, swinging a two-handed weapon, fighting with two weapons, making ranged attacks, and fighting defensively. These paths are pretty open, allowing you to mix and match with ease to create a fighter that matches your play style.

The goal here is to give you a variety of tools to deal with the situations and encounters you are bound to face. You might walk into a fight with your bow and open with Double Shot, allowing you to fire a pair of arrows into the two nearest foes, only to swap over to using a greataxe when the rest surround you, making an attack against all enemies in your reach with Whirlwind Strike! It all comes down to the type of fighter you want to play.

Jason Bulmahn
Director of Game Design

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you insist on discussing this further, feel free to start a new thread. Keep this focused on the fighter please.

Exactly.

The naysayers are saying "nay" too much, given the limited information we have. As I said before, the C/MD has existed in every RPG I have played since 1974, and it will certainly exist in PF2.0. That is the nature of magic.

However, the C/MD has been reduced. How? By augmenting the fighter and by limiting the spellcasters (limited magic and action economy).

What is cool about the fighter?

1) Defensive actions are really cool! The Raise Shield mechanic is crucial to this. In PF1.0 shields were superfluous clutter, and 2-handed weapons (or bows) rule the battlefield. But in PF2.0 you can use the Raise Shield action to not only give you an AC boost but at a very significant lump of DR onto an attack that might otherwise eviscerate you! Sure, it's only 8 points of damage for a normal shield, but imagine a finely crafted shield (expert? Legendary?) that eventually will also have magical bonuses, and it's going to absorb a lot more.

2) Mobility is a feature of the new action economy. No more static combats, now you can move, attack and move again without any special feat combo.

3) Charging is easier and more dynamic! With two move actions and an attack rolled into a 2-action cost, you can get nearly anywhere you need to go to work the terrain in your favor. And then take a second attack! Or take a defensive action!

4) Fighters get to do attacks of opportunity right out of the gate! And it has been hinted that there will be other feats to either get more AoOs or to do other cool offensive or defensive actions with your reaction action.

5) Fighters are the kings of perception, contrary to PF1.0 where it wasn't even a class skill. The way initiative now works, and with the right feats (still undisclosed) they will have a bump up on acting first in a round.

6) Power attack has been drubbed as suboptimal, but IMHO it's a big step up, since that all-important first attack has a far better chance of scoring a critical hit, and the extra damage will all get multiplied by two! That's huge, compared to the current advantage/disadvantage mechanic of power attack in PF1.0 - which was so fiddly that casual players had trouble grasping what they gained and lost when using power attack.

7) Feats like Quick Reversal, Whirlwind Strike and Shield Warden may be conditional, depending so much on tactical placement, but hey, that's a feature, not a bug! Your placement on the battlefield will mean so much more when you take pains to place yourself in just the right position to get your bonus in.

8) The few bits of information we've got about how ranged attacks will work also look cool, with secondary conditions inflicted on certain attacks - with the right feats.

All told, I have a hard time understanding the naysayers who claim that the fighter details revealed in this blog post are weak in any fashion.


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People, just flag and move on


Rob Godfrey wrote:
Hythlodeus wrote:

so, just to understand that, you're saying your group is not trying to control where the fighting tankes place and keep the monsters away from the squishys but stand in line and wait for the monsters to come to them, because the monsters mobilty is to high? they are not blocking the way, they are not slowing the monster down, they just enter the room and wait? (and then also not get buffed but have to watch how those resources go to a summoned monster that's way beyond their power level)

look, I'm not telling you how to run your encounters, because you do your thing and all power to you, but...this looks really like a problem with the party's tactics than with the mechanics of the game

we are trying to control where the fighting takes place but hey welcome to dimension door, or teleport at will, or even simply flight. If we spread out the casters get hit, if we bunch up, the casters get hit, if the monster is stupid enough to NOT hit the casters, the casters kill/debuff it, the monsters move enough to avoid full attacks, and rain pain. (Unless they are being played as dumb as rocks, which is ofc what some monsters ARE, but hey) summoned monsters flat out ARE more powerful than even a well built fighter, especially as they can be commanded to dump all the 1/day abilities they have etc into the targets (Hell PLAYING an Erinyes or Azata might be a fun game, especially if a way to scale them up for exp could be developed..hmm interesting little project that idea), and come with the ability to actually move well enough to maintain contact, or the range and versatility to not need to, it's not 'we stand in line' it's 'bunching up is the only way that melee guys gets to do more than double move after a monster that has way better mobility options'. Ranged fighters I admit are in a slightly better place, but then Gunslingers say hi, as do Rangers for being kings of that role (and blaster sorcs giggle while watching things burn/corrode/twitch in strange coloured lightning..but they...

I have a strong suspicion that given the issues summons had in PF1 and the initial version of the summoner and then looking at how summons work in pathfinder and the mechanic I expect to see them go much more towards their starfinder way of handling pets like that and summons than PF1. They are still useful and good but not as insane and cheeseball as they could get in pf1.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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Removed some posts and replies.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:
Keep this focused on the fighter please.


Wheldrake wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you insist on discussing this further, feel free to start a new thread. Keep this focused on the fighter please.

Exactly.

The naysayers are saying "nay" too much, given the limited information we have. As I said before, the C/MD has existed in every RPG I have played since 1974, and it will certainly exist in PF2.0. That is the nature of magic.

However, the C/MD has been reduced. How? By augmenting the fighter and by limiting the spellcasters (limited magic and action economy).

What is cool about the fighter?

1) Defensive actions are really cool! The Raise Shield mechanic is crucial to this. In PF1.0 shields were superfluous clutter, and 2-handed weapons (or bows) rule the battlefield. But in PF2.0 you can use the Raise Shield action to not only give you an AC boost but at a very significant lump of DR onto an attack that might otherwise eviscerate you! Sure, it's only 8 points of damage for a normal shield, but imagine a finely crafted shield (expert? Legendary?) that eventually will also have magical bonuses, and it's going to absorb a lot more.

2) Mobility is a feature of the new action economy. No more static combats, now you can move, attack and move again without any special feat combo.

3) Charging is easier and more dynamic! With two move actions and an attack rolled into a 2-action cost, you can get nearly anywhere you need to go to work the terrain in your favor. And then take a second attack! Or take a defensive action!

4) Fighters get to do attacks of opportunity right out of the gate! And it has been hinted that there will be other feats to either get more AoOs or to do other cool offensive or defensive actions with your reaction action.

5) Fighters are the kings of perception, contrary to PF1.0 where it wasn't even a class skill. The way initiative now works, and with the right feats (still undisclosed) they will have a bump up on acting first in a round.

6) Power attack has been drubbed as suboptimal, but IMHO it's a big step up,...

1. When those actions start to become practically mandatory just to survive, it's no longer a "really cool" action unless that's what you want to do every single combat. In short, shields are now the new melee meta.

2. It's a feature until everyone gets special Reactions and perhaps the same kind that Fighters get. Then you are back in PF1 territory with static full attacks until the control effects are eliminated, which is usually when enemies die or are crowd-controlled.

3. This is a feat that can either really screw you over through isolation, or become de facto and results in the same bland martial gameplay of PF1. Sure, if both happen on occasion, it might be interesting, but if one or the other, they're either worthless or eventually become staple and therefore boring.

4. Yes, but everyone else can do it eventually if they so choose. Being able to do it solely for a few levels doesn't make them permanent special snowflakes, especially if attacks of opportunity become the meta.

5. I believe they only get a +1 bonus and have it automatically Trained. Until we get confirmation of what skill levels each skill provides, this is purely a numerical speculation that's skewed.

6. This is hit and miss. On one hand, Power Attack isn't the same, which is good. On the other hand, Power Attack isn't the same, which is bad. Some people prefer old Power Attack's mechanics, and some prefer new Power Attack's lack of being de facto. It's not much different with how PF1 handled 3.X's Cleave and Great Cleave.

7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.

8. Ranged has always had the best stuff from PF1, and melee has always been behind. I think that melee should have (more of) those effects to warrant the added risk of being in the enemy's threat range. Boosting ranged even further just makes being a melee even more pointless, just like PF1.


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God, I hate how Paizo forums set up replies. I try to reply to Darksol and all I get from him is ...

Darksol, Fighters start perception at Expert, not trained and the +1 is for initiative rolls.


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I feel like it's way, way, way to early to start making declarative statements about "what is the new metagame, what are standard options."

Presumably "X option is too weak relative to this comparable choice" is one of the things that legitimately will change after the playtest.


coxey292 wrote:
There isn't a chart. Every character has things they are good or slightly better at. Everyone gets level to everything, and has anywhere from a -2 to +3 on things. Other than that there are feats that are locked behind classes, races, skills and some general feats. There isn't anything else really. It looks like class abilities will usually just increase your proficiency level, usually to the effect of +1.

I can't be bothered to chase down the citation, but I am pretty sure Mark explicitly said that there is a chart. Anyway, we have seen all of two class abilities so far (which to be fair to both increase proficiency, although one of them does not just do that), so it is way to early to say it looks like anything of the sort.

EDIT: Wait, I was missing one. AoO are a Fighter feature, with nothing whatever to do with proficiency.

_
glass.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.

I'm only going to address this point. My math ballparks Quick Reversal at +27% DPR. Seems like it's useful with something like Sudden Charge where you end up in a more isolated situation. Rather than making you immune to flanking, it makes it as much of an advantage for you as for your flankers. (It's actually really cool that the math worked out so closely for the numbers I was using.)


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I really, really hope the blogs start giving more information to prevent this kind of hysterical "the sky is falling" claptrap we see in every single thread. I don't expect to see a complete 1-20 table and excerpted full writeup, but is it really too much to ask to preview more than 1% of any given topic you're going to talk about? That way people will have more context for how they are approaching things.

In particular, PLEASE EMPHASIZE in every, and I mean EVERY blog post that the math and ground assumptions are NOT the same as in PF1, so people don't keep jumping to the standard battle cry of "in PF1's math this would be bad so this sucks!" The entire framework of the game has been retooled.


Quandary wrote:
Tuvarkz wrote:
Wait, so Attacks of Opportunity are now a reaction, does this mean you can only do one per turn, effectively making you unable to use any of your other reactions? That's a massive nerf in my eyes.
Default of 3.x/Pathfinder 1st Edition is 1 AoO per turn. This rules blog (and dev comments) have already revealed that options will exist to enable free/bonus reactions for specific purposes, leaving 'generic' reaction (and others) free.

Point of order, one AoO/reaction per round. Once per turn is much more forgiving (and would probably make the shield block thing a little strong).

_
glass.


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Fuzzypaws wrote:
In particular, PLEASE EMPHASIZE in every, and I mean EVERY blog post that the math and ground assumptions are NOT the same as in PF1, so people don't keep jumping to the standard battle cry of "in PF1's math this would be bad so this sucks!" The entire framework of the game has been retooled.

Does this need underlining for anybody save for the doomsayers that congregate on the forums because they need somewhere to say their doom? People engaging with PF2 in good faith and with an open mind (one would hope this is the majority) will eventually just catch on to this in their own time.


Oh boy, I'm so late to the party...

But I liked what I heard here ^^


Fuzzypaws wrote:

I really, really hope the blogs start giving more information to prevent this kind of hysterical "the sky is falling" claptrap we see in every single thread. I don't expect to see a complete 1-20 table and excerpted full writeup, but is it really too much to ask to preview more than 1% of any given topic you're going to talk about? That way people will have more context for how they are approaching things.

In particular, PLEASE EMPHASIZE in every, and I mean EVERY blog post that the math and ground assumptions are NOT the same as in PF1, so people don't keep jumping to the standard battle cry of "in PF1's math this would be bad so this sucks!" The entire framework of the game has been retooled.

There's enough information to determine that the new power attack does very different things with the new action economy and the way crits work but people will willfully ignore that information when formulating their math. Just like in the skills discussion where proficiency levels and numerical bonus does different things and the immediate numerical variance of two high level characters is stated to be around 15. This is enough information where you have to scratch your head and wonder what's going on but people are still hung up over the numbers as if they still mean something in the new paradigm. Hi proficiency skills do cartoonishly overpowered things that PF1 high numbers don't come close to doing, I think we have enough information to determine that proficiency is more relevant than the skill bonus. Same thing here. The new action economy makes over attacking crit which may well be laughably easy for a fighter. Be adding dice as opposed to numbers means a bucket of dice of extra damage. Which is useful because now shields can potentially grant DR at first level. If you still relied on minor bumps in damage a shield guy can just turtle up. And what if that guy can catch attacks towards allies. Now you have to get rid of him to get to the caster and now you have to fall victim to attacks even when he misses if you try to gang up on him. There's very different things happening in this edition.

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm pretty sure a "jump attack" is not in the category of "social and out of combat abilities"... I mean, unless social and out of combat stuff has changed *a lot* from PF1.

It's good that fighters get combat options that other classes don't, since in PF1 everybody got the combat options a fighter got since those were pretty much "feats" and "numerical bonuses". It's also good that everybody gets a bunch of cool stuff for when they are not fighting.

I was speaking to the design philosophy, not the role.

If a fighter has an inherent theme, he should get fighter-specific abilities related to that theme. The fighter should not have any class-specific abilities related to raw training. Those abilities should be available to anyone else who is capable of achieving the same level of training. The same is true for any other class.

Jason Bulmahn talked about generic options available across classes. Mark Seifter talked about generic options restricted to one class. That mean that there are different design philosophies in effect for different areas of the game and may lead to a disconnected feel overall.

Malk_Content wrote:
Smite Makes Right wrote:
...
It isn't exclusive to the fighter. It is exclusive to that level of proficiency. The fighter gets that level of proficiency for free by level 7, before anyone else would have been able to pump enough skill ranks into it. So it can be open for everyone, just everyone else might have to wait till level 9/11/13 whatever. Which isn't all that different from many PF1 options.

Mark Seifter said otherwise. He may have misspoke or I may have misunderstood. I not clear what he is referring to about having "have the whole thing going" in the second part of quote.

Mark Seifter wrote:


This particular aerial combo is an ability available exclusively to fighters, and it is available in the level range of master (pre-legendary), but that doesn't mean you can have the whole thing going at a particular level. You'll at least get some anti-aerial options around the time the wizard is first able to fly.

Mark Seifter seems to be explicitly saying that only fighters can do this and not just by level 7 (which was part of context of the original post).

He is not saying that achieving the combo by level 7 is exclusive to fighters, he said that the particular aerial combo is an ability exclusive to fighters.


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
When those actions start to become practically mandatory just to survive, it's no longer a "really cool" action unless that's what you want to do every single combat. In short, shields are now the new melee meta.

Someone did the math for low level fighters, shield VS 2h. Assuming power attack crit (I think a fair assumption), in 1v1 each one won 50% of the matches. Now, that can be true for only a subset of levels, or up to certain levels of strength, we don't know yet. But it is encouraging. If true, then shields are not the new meta, but a valid option just as good, except with a different feel and playstyle, which should be the goal.

Liberty's Edge

Kiln Norn wrote:

As far as I recall the jump attack thing was listed as something you could do with a skill at a master/legend rank not because you were a fighter. Could be wrong but ya, that was what I recall.

As for the Paladin/Cleric/Fighter-sorc/monk-wizard being a holy crusader... why does this system stop you from doing that? In a home game I played a NE wizard that followed Norgorber to the point of living and abiding by the code that his anti-paladin's are supposed to follow. He upheld the tenets, offered sacrifices, abided by...

I just commented on the fighter exclusive jump attack so I will just comment on the crusader concept comment.

The changes for Pathfinder 2, specifically arbitrarily assigning generic abilities to classes, doesn't stop you from varying how you build your concept, but it is worse at giving you options to do so than the systems that came before it.

This also works in the other direction. Am I going to have fewer options for developing a class because certain abilities are either forced on a class or restricted for that class? For example, if I make a paladin, am I going to forced to use a sword and shield to be able to use all of my class abilities? Am I going to be able to focus on two-handed weapons, dual wielding, or archery instead without having useless abilities on my sheet? (A shield-specific ability that was an option I did not choose would be fine.)

I don’t expect paladins to be restricted like that; that is a somewhat extreme direction of what extrapolation of fighter-specific abilities.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Smite Makes Right wrote:

Mark Seifter seems to be explicitly saying that only fighters can do this and not just by level 7 (which was part of context of the original post).

He is not saying that achieving the combo by level 7 is exclusive to fighters, he said that the particular aerial combo is an ability exclusive to fighters.

Bit early to judge, isn't it? It very well could be that the "particular aerial combo" is distinctly fighter-themed, and that other classes may have similar abilities that fit their own theme.

Just because the fighter has one way of doing something, doesn't mean that nobody else gets a similar option.

They also haven't covered any kind of multi-classing/archetype stuff yet either, which might allow you to get fighter feats for your rogue/barbarian/etc.


QuidEst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.
I'm only going to address this point. My math ballparks Quick Reversal at +27% DPR. Seems like it's useful with something like Sudden Charge where you end up in a more isolated situation. Rather than making you immune to flanking, it makes it as much of an advantage for you as for your flankers. (It's actually really cool that the math worked out so closely for the numbers I was using.)

For folks who aren't following the forum discussion where this analysis comes from, the analysis is misleading. It assumes you use all three actions to attack, when it's reasonable to expect that this will often be bad idea. This is because it's reasonable to expect it will often be a better idea to use your third action to move into a position where you won't be flanked rather than attacking at -10.

Rather, Quick Reversal looks like it would be about equivalent to +1 to attack if you attack twice, and +2 if you attack three times. In any case, it looks unexciting and uninteresting in a way continuous with lots of Paizo's recent design. Maybe this initial appearance is wrong, but it's strange that Paizo chose it as an example in introducing the PF2 fighter.

Instead, they should be picking feats and abilities that (a) illustrate what I hope is PF2's bold and original design, and (b) communicate that Paizo understands the problems that the community has identified with the PF1 fighter and is addressing the problems in the new edition.


I'm sure other classes get their own shiny stuff too. That's the point, actually.


Stone Dog wrote:

God, I hate how Paizo forums set up replies. I try to reply to Darksol and all I get from him is ...

Darksol, Fighters start perception at Expert, not trained and the +1 is for initiative rolls.

Okay. But until we understand what having Expert Perception means (and I don't know how Initiative is calculated), saying it does, well, anything, is pure speculation at this point.

Liberty's Edge

ubiquitous wrote:
Smite Makes Right wrote:

Mark Seifter seems to be explicitly saying that only fighters can do this and not just by level 7 (which was part of context of the original post).

He is not saying that achieving the combo by level 7 is exclusive to fighters, he said that the particular aerial combo is an ability exclusive to fighters.

Bit early to judge, isn't it? It very well could be that the "particular aerial combo" is distinctly fighter-themed, and that other classes may have similar abilities that fit their own theme.

Just because the fighter has one way of doing something, doesn't mean that nobody else gets a similar option.

They also haven't covered any kind of multi-classing/archetype stuff yet either, which might allow you to get fighter feats for your rogue/barbarian/etc.

It's not too early to judge what the designers are saying. I will, of course, reserve my judgment for the final product until it is released, after the playtest.

If we were talking about a generic ability with variations by class, I believe Mark Seifter probably would have said something along those lines instead of the combo is exclusive to fighters.

In addition, if leap at a flying opponent and bring them to the ground was a generic ability that everyone had variations on, I feel like jump and smash would be the barbarian's take.

This also leads me to believe that only paladins will be able to reduce the damage of an attack by the shield's hardness with a reaction, but the callout to paladins in the action article may have been an attempt to interject class variety into the discussion, not suggest that it is a paladin exclusive ability. (It should not be.)

Liberty's Edge

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:

God, I hate how Paizo forums set up replies. I try to reply to Darksol and all I get from him is ...

Darksol, Fighters start perception at Expert, not trained and the +1 is for initiative rolls.

Okay. But until we understand what having Expert Perception means (and I don't know how Initiative is calculated), saying it does, well, anything, is pure speculation at this point.

Yeah, but this is the internet....


QuidEst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.
I'm only going to address this point. My math ballparks Quick Reversal at +27% DPR. Seems like it's useful with something like Sudden Charge where you end up in a more isolated situation. Rather than making you immune to flanking, it makes it as much of an advantage for you as for your flankers. (It's actually really cool that the math worked out so closely for the numbers I was using.)

As I've stated once before, in situations where that is common, it has usage. But if it's a team game, having Fighter charge in and isolate himself just to use his chosen feat seems like a selfish and potentially suicidal option that the rest of the group wouldn't particularly appreciate.


Wheldrake wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you insist on discussing this further, feel free to start a new thread. Keep this focused on the fighter please.

Exactly.

The naysayers are saying "nay" too much, given the limited information we have. As I said before, the C/MD has existed in every RPG I have played since 1974, and it will certainly exist in PF2.0. That is the nature of magic.

However, the C/MD has been reduced. How? By augmenting the fighter and by limiting the spellcasters (limited magic and action economy).

What is cool about the fighter?

1) Defensive actions are really cool! The Raise Shield mechanic is crucial to this. In PF1.0 shields were superfluous clutter, and 2-handed weapons (or bows) rule the battlefield. But in PF2.0 you can use the Raise Shield action to not only give you an AC boost but at a very significant lump of DR onto an attack that might otherwise eviscerate you! Sure, it's only 8 points of damage for a normal shield, but imagine a finely crafted shield (expert? Legendary?) that eventually will also have magical bonuses, and it's going to absorb a lot more.

In PF1.0 Shield's were superfluous clutter, in PF 2.0 Shield basically do the same things that they did in 1.0, but now require an action to use! Somehow this makes them better!

Also you can use your one reaction a turn to block a single attack, so that it damages your shield instead! It's so awesome that the best new feature that has been added to shield carries the drawback of destroying your shield!

Quote:
2) Mobility is a feature of the new action economy. No more static combats, now you can move, attack and move again without any special feat combo.

This is a feature for everybody, nothing special to the Fighter.

Quote:


3) Charging is easier and more dynamic! With two move actions and an attack rolled into a 2-action cost, you can get nearly anywhere you need to go to work the terrain in your favor. And then take a second attack! Or take a defensive action!

The lone interesting ability that they've indicated the Fighter will have.

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4) Fighters get to do attacks of opportunity right out of the gate! And it has been hinted that there will be other feats to either get more AoOs or to do other cool offensive or defensive actions with your reaction action.

"Out of the gate" is just another way of saying that this ability is not special or unique to the fighter beyond, possibly, the very lowest levels of the game.

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5) Fighters are the kings of perception, contrary to PF1.0 where it wasn't even a class skill. The way initiative now works, and with the right feats (still undisclosed) they will have a bump up on acting first in a round.

The kings? While I like the fighters aren't being treated as blind idiots, there's no indication of how good any other class/creature will be at perception relative to the Fighter. And with the way Initiative works, other classes will be just as good or better at it depending on the situation, because they can get it to key off of different skills that they have an advantage in.

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7) Feats like Quick Reversal, Whirlwind Strike and Shield Warden may be conditional, depending so much on tactical placement, but hey, that's a feature, not a bug! Your placement on the battlefield will mean so much more when you take pains to place yourself in just the right position to get your bonus in.

Somehow having class features that only provide an advantage in very narrow situations are a good thing!

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All told, I have a hard time understanding the naysayers who claim that the fighter details revealed in this blog post are weak in any fashion.

Read what you wrote. You listed a bunch of generic features of the system that everyone will have access to. A nerf of shields inexplicably being touted as an improvement, and a bunch of feats that only provide a minor benefit in very limited situations as the big selling points of the Fighter in 2E.

They seem to get one exclusive feature that actually looks cool, the charge ability, and you wonder why people aren't sold on it?


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:
If you insist on discussing this further, feel free to start a new thread. Keep this focused on the fighter please.

Exactly.

The naysayers are saying "nay" too much, given the limited information we have. As I said before, the C/MD has existed in every RPG I have played since 1974, and it will certainly exist in PF2.0. That is the nature of magic.

However, the C/MD has been reduced. How? By augmenting the fighter and by limiting the spellcasters (limited magic and action economy).

What is cool about the fighter?

1) Defensive actions are really cool! The Raise Shield mechanic is crucial to this. In PF1.0 shields were superfluous clutter, and 2-handed weapons (or bows) rule the battlefield. But in PF2.0 you can use the Raise Shield action to not only give you an AC boost but at a very significant lump of DR onto an attack that might otherwise eviscerate you! Sure, it's only 8 points of damage for a normal shield, but imagine a finely crafted shield (expert? Legendary?) that eventually will also have magical bonuses, and it's going to absorb a lot more.

In PF1.0 Shield's were superfluous clutter, in PF 2.0 Shield basically do the same things that they did in 1.0, but now require an action to use! Somehow this makes them better!

Also you can use your one reaction a turn to block a single attack, so that it damages your shield instead! It's so awesome that the best new feature that has been added to shield carries the drawback of destroying your shield!

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2) Mobility is a feature of the new action economy. No more static combats, now you can move, attack and move again without any special feat combo.

This is a feature for everybody, nothing special to the Fighter.

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3) Charging is easier and more dynamic! With two move actions and an attack rolled into a 2-action cost, you can get nearly anywhere you need to go to work the terrain in your favor. And then take a second attack! Or take a defensive
...

Shields can be used as a Reaction to get their AC, and the fighter eventually gets more reactions so they can have their AC, and still get an AoO.

You just have the option of using it on your turn if you want to bank your reactions.

Or if you want to use your shield to get DR against one attack for a reaction.

Unclear if you can use your shield to get DR twice once you get two or more reactions.

Shields as designed are better in that sense, especially if you get to add your proficiency modifier to their AC bonus (meaning they can go from +2 to +8).


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Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.
I'm only going to address this point. My math ballparks Quick Reversal at +27% DPR. Seems like it's useful with something like Sudden Charge where you end up in a more isolated situation. Rather than making you immune to flanking, it makes it as much of an advantage for you as for your flankers. (It's actually really cool that the math worked out so closely for the numbers I was using.)
As I've stated once before, in situations where that is common, it has usage. But if it's a team game, having Fighter charge in and isolate himself just to use his chosen feat seems like a selfish and potentially suicidal option that the rest of the group wouldn't particularly appreciate.

Eh, having the Fighter charge in and pin them down keeps the more ranged-oriented characters safer.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

It actually makes him tank, without needing gimmicky "taunt" options


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Okay. But until we understand what having Expert Perception means (and I don't know how Initiative is calculated), saying it does, well, anything, is pure speculation at this point.

Not saying otherwise, but it was mentioned in the blog above, so it is the easiest to correct.

Assuming that other classes don't get a free advance (I only anticipate the rogue and ranger likely in that regard), even if the additional actions unlocked in to trained and expert are a bit underwhelming an effective +3 to what is likely still an important skill is going to be welcome.

It is funny to me that a complaint I heard often about fighters in 5e was that they didn't have a proficiency in perception and in PF2 they get a head start.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
7. Quick Reversal is a trap that basically requires setting yourself up for failure to use regularly, which may or may not work in conjunction with Sudden Charge. Whirlwind Strike might be less restrictive, but who knows what it all requires in this new edition.
I'm only going to address this point. My math ballparks Quick Reversal at +27% DPR. Seems like it's useful with something like Sudden Charge where you end up in a more isolated situation. Rather than making you immune to flanking, it makes it as much of an advantage for you as for your flankers. (It's actually really cool that the math worked out so closely for the numbers I was using.)
As I've stated once before, in situations where that is common, it has usage. But if it's a team game, having Fighter charge in and isolate himself just to use his chosen feat seems like a selfish and potentially suicidal option that the rest of the group wouldn't particularly appreciate.
Eh, having the Fighter charge in and pin them down keeps the more ranged-oriented characters safer.

Also, it's a feat, not a class feature, so a character taking this is MAYBE a bit suicidal. It's cool that there are feats to support a very rash and dangerous to oneself fighter like that.


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gustavo iglesias wrote:
It actually makes him tank, without needing gimmicky "taunt" options

I genuinely hope PF2 is wholly bereft of "I am so annoying that you have no choice but to attack me" mechanics.


I was going to preorder the book yesterday, but because of this blog I am now not going to preorder a physical until I get more clarifications on the questions I have about the game's design. If they don't clarify the things I need clarified to justify giving them my money before the window for preorders ends, then I will not even bother getting a physical copy.

This has actively affected my decision to give Paizo my money.


Ya know, while a part of me misses things like style fests or the Oracle, as long as there are feats and perhaps even archetypes that allow you to heavily customize and augment your character and class, I'll be happy with that. Just looking at power attack, you can see we're being offered options for an entirely new system, which I love. Emphasis on options, not taxes.

Even with the contentiousness with the shield abilities. They're all great, just not brain dead. If you're fighting a dragon that has yet to use a breath attack, maybe rely on your full plate and, oh, I dunno, your multitude of feats for defense to protect yourself or your ally. If you're fighting Falchion Freddie, raise your guard. If you're fighting mooks, twf. If an adamantium golden, power attack.

I know it's hard to grasp, the Fighter (Archetypically the taciturn, 3 steps ahead of his enemy, battle-hardened badass who's always the first to fight/last to flight) being great at fighting in general, having options for all enemy types, but it's a good thing, people.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
gustavo iglesias wrote:
It actually makes him tank, without needing gimmicky "taunt" options
I genuinely hope PF2 is wholly bereft of "I am so annoying that you have no choice but to attack me" mechanics.

Yeah, these don't work in games like these without a lot of thought, such as a magical compulsion effect.


master_marshmallow wrote:

Shields can be used as a Reaction to get their AC, and the fighter eventually gets more reactions so they can have their AC, and still get an AoO.

You just have the option of using it on your turn if you want to bank your reactions.

Or if you want to use your shield to get DR against one attack for a reaction.

Unclear if you can use your shield to get DR twice once you get two or more reactions.

Shields as designed are better in that sense, especially if you get to add your proficiency modifier to their AC bonus (meaning they can go from +2 to +8).

As long as you have to use an action or reaction to get any benefit from a shield, then they are not better unless a shield gives you substantially more than it does in 1E, and so far all they've indicated that shields give you is the same minor boost to AC as 1E.

Having to use a reaction to raise your shield is, again, not something that makes shields any better. It's something that makes shields worse than they were in 1E.

I've seen nothing to indicated that you're supposed to add proficiency bonus to AC with shields, and since that's something that would represent an actual improvement to shields, I'd think that the design team would have lead with that if it was the case.


Ninja in the Rye wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Shields can be used as a Reaction to get their AC, and the fighter eventually gets more reactions so they can have their AC, and still get an AoO.

You just have the option of using it on your turn if you want to bank your reactions.

Or if you want to use your shield to get DR against one attack for a reaction.

Unclear if you can use your shield to get DR twice once you get two or more reactions.

Shields as designed are better in that sense, especially if you get to add your proficiency modifier to their AC bonus (meaning they can go from +2 to +8).

As long as you have to use an action or reaction to get any benefit from a shield, then they are not better unless a shield gives you substantially more than it does in 1E, and so far all they've indicated that shields give you is the same minor boost to AC as 1E.

Having to use a reaction to raise your shield is, again, not something that makes shields any better. It's something that makes shields worse than they were in 1E.

I've seen nothing to indicated that you're supposed to add proficiency bonus to AC with shields, and since that's something that would represent an actual improvement to shields, I'd think that the design team would have lead with that if it was the case.

You can spend a reaction to get your shield's hardness as DR against one attack.

This has a chance to damage your shield, but it's something.


Stone Dog wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Okay. But until we understand what having Expert Perception means (and I don't know how Initiative is calculated), saying it does, well, anything, is pure speculation at this point.

Not saying otherwise, but it was mentioned in the blog above, so it is the easiest to correct.

Assuming that other classes don't get a free advance (I only anticipate the rogue and ranger likely in that regard), even if the additional actions unlocked in to trained and expert are a bit underwhelming an effective +3 to what is likely still an important skill is going to be welcome.

It is funny to me that a complaint I heard often about fighters in 5e was that they didn't have a proficiency in perception and in PF2 they get a head start.

So far, the Initiative checks seen on Glass Cannon have involved Skill checks based on the characters' actions during Exploration mode - usually Perception (I know, not a Skill anymore). Presumably, a critical success will confer some sort of benefit, but it's not yet clear what that might be


Crayon wrote:
Stone Dog wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Okay. But until we understand what having Expert Perception means (and I don't know how Initiative is calculated), saying it does, well, anything, is pure speculation at this point.

Not saying otherwise, but it was mentioned in the blog above, so it is the easiest to correct.

Assuming that other classes don't get a free advance (I only anticipate the rogue and ranger likely in that regard), even if the additional actions unlocked in to trained and expert are a bit underwhelming an effective +3 to what is likely still an important skill is going to be welcome.

It is funny to me that a complaint I heard often about fighters in 5e was that they didn't have a proficiency in perception and in PF2 they get a head start.

So far, the Initiative checks seen on Glass Cannon have involved Skill checks based on the characters' actions during Exploration mode - usually Perception (I know, not a Skill anymore). Presumably, a critical success will confer some sort of benefit, but it's not yet clear what that might be

I find it weird that Perception isn't a skill anymore, given the mechanics seem to mirror how all the other skills work.

It still seems to function like all the other skills, mechanically at least.


master_marshmallow wrote:

You can spend a reaction to get your shield's hardness as DR against one attack.

This has a chance to damage your shield, but it's something.

I really do want to play a Dwarf Fighter with an Adamantine Shield and a Dorn-Dergar whenever that becomes possible. Also take the ancestry feats to be the Dwarfiest Dwarf.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

Shields can be used as a Reaction to get their AC, and the fighter eventually gets more reactions so they can have their AC, and still get an AoO.

You just have the option of using it on your turn if you want to bank your reactions.

Or if you want to use your shield to get DR against one attack for a reaction.

Unclear if you can use your shield to get DR twice once you get two or more reactions.

Shields as designed are better in that sense, especially if you get to add your proficiency modifier to their AC bonus (meaning they can go from +2 to +8).

As long as you have to use an action or reaction to get any benefit from a shield, then they are not better unless a shield gives you substantially more than it does in 1E, and so far all they've indicated that shields give you is the same minor boost to AC as 1E.

Having to use a reaction to raise your shield is, again, not something that makes shields any better. It's something that makes shields worse than they were in 1E.

I've seen nothing to indicated that you're supposed to add proficiency bonus to AC with shields, and since that's something that would represent an actual improvement to shields, I'd think that the design team would have lead with that if it was the case.

You can spend a reaction to get your shield's hardness as DR against one attack.

This has a chance to damage your shield, but it's something.

It is indeed something. It's just that it's something that requires half the actions you get in a round to do and still comes with the drawback of risking damaging/destroying your own equipment.


master_marshmallow wrote:

I find it weird that Perception isn't a skill anymore, given the mechanics seem to mirror how all the other skills work.

It still seems to function like all the other skills, mechanically at least.

That does seem strange. Even if they're giving it to every single class because of how important it is, it's still functionally a skill and presumably can be improved like a skill and pick up feat improvements like a skill; just call it a skill.


Fuzzypaws wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:

I find it weird that Perception isn't a skill anymore, given the mechanics seem to mirror how all the other skills work.

It still seems to function like all the other skills, mechanically at least.

That does seem strange. Even if they're giving it to every single class because of how important it is, it's still functionally a skill and presumably can be improved like a skill and pick up feat improvements like a skill; just call it a skill.

Think every character automatically gains proficiency with it and it remains maxed. That's kinda how it ended up working before anyways. Max percept for all! Not a skill because you don't get a choice to increase it I guess.


Has there been any indication that Sudden Charge will be expanded in power? I noted that someone indicated that Paizo did a lot of research on what real world athletes can accomplish. Building on that I'm wondering if we'll see a fighter eventually being able to do things like;
- Move for three actions and make one single attack
- Move for two or three actions making attacks along the way

Considering that if a round of combat equals roughly 6 seconds, and that most professional football players can do the 40 yard dash (120ft) in under 6 seconds, it isn't a stretch of the imagination having a now master or legendary fighter who can sprint through a battlefield dealing damage as he goes.

Which then leads to a question; Has it been revealed if the new base speeds have changed? Maybe an old base speed of 30ft is now 40 feet since there are only 3 actions in a round, or in other words allowing a full round move of 120ft is now achieved in three actions.


Gray wrote:

Has there been any indication that Sudden Charge will be expanded in power? I noted that someone indicated that Paizo did a lot of research on what real world athletes can accomplish. Building on that I'm wondering if we'll see a fighter eventually being able to do things like;

- Move for three actions and make one single attack
- Move for two or three actions making attacks along the way

Considering that if a round of combat equals roughly 6 seconds, and that most professional football players can do the 40 yard dash in under 6 seconds, it isn't a stretch of the imagination having a now master or legendary fighter who can sprint through a battlefield dealing damage as he goes.

Which then leads to a question; Has it been revealed if the new base speeds have changed? Maybe an old base speed of 30ft is now 40 feet since there are only 3 actions in a round, or in other words allowing a full round move of 120ft is now achieved in three actions.

I believe someone from a convention game said human speed was 25ft... for some reason.

When you mentioned the "Run around and attack multiple targets" I couldn't help but to think of this ability


I could definitely see them doing Spring Attack as a feat that allows you to spend two actions to move twice and attack once somewhere in the middle of the movement. With the option to also use your third action to attack at any point during the movement, if you don't want to use it for something else like using a potion, raising a shield, etc.

EDIT: Well, thinking about it that is better than their current Sudden Charge. Hm. Maybe you have to spend all three actions to use Spring Attack then, but do get double movement and two attacks? Hm.


ChibiNyan wrote:
When you mentioned the "Run around and attack multiple targets" I couldn't help but to think of this ability

Yeah, that's a little crazy. I really thought it was going to read, something like the rogue can make an attack against anyone who would normally have an AOO against him. But attack themselves?

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