Pathfinder Online and the Emerald Spire

WOOO SUPERDUNGEON!

So for us non online game players (so no reason to do the kickstarter) will this product be availible to the mass public?

DOUBLE WOOO!

Consider yourselves $100 closer...as soon as I talk to my wife...

I've confirmed with Mike as well, that when this funds we plan to release Chronicle sheets to sanction every level for Pathfinder Society play, including any above 12th level. So if you want more content for your Pathfinders, back the project! Make sure it gets funded! Go go go! YAAAAAAY!

So for us non online game players (so no reason to do the kickstarter) will this product be availible to the mass public?

If the Kickstarter fails to make it's goal it will not be made. So backing it at the lowest pledge of $5 and then upping it to the $100 for the Print Bundle helps the cause of making it a reality.

Valinar

"The RPG Print Pack includes a hardcover print edition of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon, featuring an exclusive cover available only to Kickstarter backers;"
Why would it say an exclusive cover if only available to backers? This product is likely to be made either way isn't it?
Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here. I really have zero interest in supporting a video game I will never play.

I doubt that Lisa will come out of semi-retirement to write it unless the KS gets funded; once it is written, however, it would be bad business to not put it into a full print run.

In other words, it probably isn't going to be written, and certainly not on the same timeframe, if the KS doesn't meet the goal.

I believe this statement means if the Kickstarter is fully funded the backers will receive the exclusive cover and when they release it to the rest of the public it will have a different cover. However I think the Kickstarter needs to be fully funded for it to be made.

Edit: That is my take on it any who. I could be wrong!

Valinar

Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here. I really have zero interest in supporting a video game I will never play.

Well the bigger the Kickstarter gets the larger the book will be. So really its a win for you either way.

"The RPG Print Pack includes a hardcover print edition of the Emerald Spire Superdungeon, featuring an exclusive cover available only to Kickstarter backers;"

Why would it say an exclusive cover if only available to backers? This product is likely to be made either way isn't it?
Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here. I really have zero interest in supporting a video game I will never play.

Only kickstarter backers will get the book with that cover.

It's like a 'promo' or 'limited' item. You have to support PFO if you want the exclusive cover.

Looks like you already supported it by joining the goblin squad.

Just as a point of clarification,
will the $100K mark continue beyond the $1mil goal for further levels?

If so, will it be reasonable to estimate that if, by some amazing outpouring, the kickstarter reached $11,950,000 you would be printing a dungeon 8 pages larger than the 1000 pages of the Worlds Largest Dungeon?

Just as a point of clarification,

will the $100K mark continue beyond the $1mil goal for further levels?

Yes, it says in the kickstarter that it goes up every $100k. The example of a 50 level dungeon is given, that is well over 2M in backing.

Just as a point of clarification,

will the $100K mark continue beyond the $1mil goal for further levels?

If so, will it be reasonable to estimate that if, by some amazing outpouring, the kickstarter reached $11,950,000 you would be printing a dungeon 8 pages larger than the 1000 pages of the Worlds Largest Dungeon?

Yes for each extra 100k from 250k on means another level will be written.

Valinar

Just as a point of clarification,

will the $100K mark continue beyond the $1mil goal for further levels?

If so, will it be reasonable to estimate that if, by some amazing outpouring, the kickstarter reached $11,950,000 you would be printing a dungeon 8 pages larger than the 1000 pages of the Worlds Largest Dungeon?

I think they would need multiple books at that point. Also I would feel really bad if the Book started to cost more than the pledges to print but, we can dare to dream right?

I think they would need multiple books at that point. Also I would feel really bad if the Book started to cost more than the pledges to print but, we can dare to dream right?

If you're gonna dream, dream Big!

Paizo'd also probably need a dedicated team working round the clock to make the print dates.

The way I read it, the dungeon will be made and released regardless of the Kickstarter success. Otherwise, I don't know why they'd say it starts at 4 levels and reaches 12 levels when the million is met. I mean, if it isn't made unless the goal is reached, why not simply say "When the Kickstarter is successful, we'll release a 12 level Superdungeon. Stretch goals beyond the 1 million mark will add additional levels."

Either that, or the wording is confusing at best.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8d3?Did-I-correctly-understand-that-Emerald-S pire#10

EDIT: Dunno about the the space. sorry.

Dream Big!
(If my math is right) $12mil dollars would be a 1016 page record breaking dungeon, 119 minatures, and a record high for kickstarter.

I think that would bankrupt the kickstarter on completion lol

Look at it this way: For $200 ($215 for international customers) you get a MINIMUM of 128 page dungeon in PDF and Hard Copy, 6 flip maps (also in PDF/hardcopy), 12 miniatures, and face/item cards. That's MINIMUM if the Kickstarter exceeds its goals, you get EVEN more. This is excellent value, the early access to the Beta is just chocolate sauce, some people don't like chocolate sauce on their giant Icecream sundae. That's okay! You don't have to use the sauce! Just play with the excellent pen and paper product. Ignore the beta invite, or give it to a friend. Support this Kickstarter because its great P&P value.

I'll be honest, I wasn't going to play PFO before this (I'm not an MMO player particularly of the game style described by Ryan), but with a free key to go with this amazing product I'll give it a shot and see if it can break/exceed expectation.

This product is likely to be made either way isn't it?

Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here. I really have zero interest in supporting a video game I will never play.

Nope! While it's true that if the Kickstarter succeeds and we make the book, we have the option to publish it as well farther down the road, a book like this is still a HUGE expenditure of time, money, and talent--hence the reason we haven't done it before. If the Kickstarter doesn't succeed, the incentive to do all that extra work on top of our normal product schedule drops through the floor.

If you want a superstar megadungeon, support the Kickstarter. Every person who signs up makes the book bigger, and gets you more bang for your buck! It's also one of the few times when we're letting the fans directly set the product specs. So by donating enough, it would theoretically be possible to get a 300-page hardcover dungeon book for just $100, with the side benefit of knowing that you're also getting every Paizo developer's weekends for several months. :D

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8d3?Did-I-correctly-understand-that-Emerald-S pire#10

Ok, I appreciate the fast response from Paizo on the matter (and thank you too for pointing it out!) but if that's the case, the blog post as written doesn't make much sense to me.

Ah well, then let's just hope they reach the goal, even though I'm not a huge MMO fan.

Hmmm... what happens when they run out of Paizo employees to write levels for the dungeon? Will they Resurrect Gary Gygax to write one for them? Or maybe contract out and get Kobold press and EN to write some dungeon levels?

Most of all though, the Thornkeep kickstarter allowed voting between choices for the levels. I wonder if this Kickstarter will do the same?

Oh! And a soundtrack which you know will be appropriate for a pathfinder fantasy game.

Donate. Make your friends donate. If we get this going we could conceivably steal ALL the weekends!

WampaX wrote:

Dream Big!
(If my math is right) $12mil dollars would be a 1016 page record breaking dungeon, 119 minatures, and a record high for kickstarter.

I think that would bankrupt the kickstarter on completion lol

That's the kind of risk that businesses sometimes have to make: If we gat $12m, it will bankrupt us. :)

Personally, I would feel better about this whole thing if the goal was lower ($250k?), the base project less ambitious (cut three months off of development time?) and there were clear stretch goals for further shortening the development time. I feel like the new rewards are not part of the original plan, but I know that the lead times on even a demo image of a mini recolor are too long for them to have been started after the KS was announced...

xevious573 wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p8d3?Did-I-correctly-understand-that-Emerald-S pire#10

Ok, I appreciate the fast response from Paizo on the matter (and thank you too for pointing it out!) but if that's the case, the blog post as written doesn't make much sense to me.

Ah well, then let's just hope they reach the goal, even though I'm not a huge MMO fan.

I hope that means you'll support the Kickstarter.

I mean, it comes down to this:
If you support the kickstarter at $75: You get the MMO stuff and the pdf copies of the book and of the flipmats.

If you support the kickstarter at $105:
You get the physical book (atleast 128 pages), the physical flipmats (atleast 6 flipmats), the physical novel, and the physical play cards. You don't have to worry about the extra MMO stuff if you don't want to beyond a few emails you can ignore.

If you support the kickstarter at $175: You get all of the above plus all the MMO stuff. Some noteworthy things would be that you also get the PDF copies of the book and of the flipmats (if you play on the Paizo Tabletop program, it's entirely possible these pdfs will be unlocked for your personal use), you get the soundtrack of the MMO which could be used for added ambiance in your tabletop games if you like the idea of some music playing in the background. You can either try out the MMO game for yourself or if you aren't interested perhaps you can give it to a friend that might be interested.

If you support the kickstarter at $200: You get all of the above and ATLEAST 9* miniatures.

---------------------------

Now... if you don't support the kickstarter you might miss out as there are two different possibilities:

If people do the same as you and don't support the kickstarter than the super dungeon is unlikely to ever get made. It's possible that maybe at some point Paizo will make a different one but that's not guaranteed as the Adventure Path product line is doing mighty fine on its own. I don't mean to guilt trip you with this, I'm just stating that this is what would likely happen in this scenario.

OR

The kickstarter does succeed. Now you might be able to get the pdf copy of the book cheaper AND maybe even the pdf copy of the flipmats for less the $75... Maybe. But it will be unlikely that you can get the physical copy of these products for LESS then $105 as there is going be atleast 6 flipmats (each being valued at $13 or so) and atleast a $60 book.

Now if for some reason the amount the kickstarter succeeds by is incredible, maybe reaching $2mil or maybe even $3mil... possibilities that do exist. Then the price of the book just jumped and possibly skyrocketed to maybe a $100 book or maybe even more expensive than that and the amount of flipmats just skyrocketed too as there will be a much greater need for flipmats (5 extra at $2.05mil and another 5 extra at $3.05mil)... Oh and 10 extra minis at $2mil and 10 more at $3mil meaning you might have to pay up to $200 or more for something all of the other kickstarters got for $75, $105, $175, or $200 WITH MORE STUFF THAN WHAT YOU GOT ON TOP OF THAT!

If you need a TL;DR (don't worry I do too sometimes) Just read the bold part and consider supporting the kickstarter... everyone pitching in makes it better for yourself and all of the rest of this community.

*Thanks Wampa for correcting me.

Some harder(-ish) numbers to back up the claims of value above.
This is all based on the current prices of Paizo products.
1x $20 hardback book (based on 256 pages = $40)
1x $10 PDF of hardback
6x $13 FlipMats
6x $9 PDF of FlipMats
1x $11 55 Face/Item/Quest cards
1x $10 Paperback Novel
1x $7 PDF/eBook of Novel
9x $3-5 Miniature (based on common/uncommon prices of medium miniatures)
Total = $217-$235* value for the $200 pledge
PDF-only = $71* for the $75 pledge
Print-only = $119 for the $105 pledge
*This doesn't include the other digital goodies you would get at the $75+ level (soundtrack, MMO access, MMO content, etc)

And it just gets to be a better value after the funding mark.

Heck, even at the $175 level (+ $100 for print), the double miniatures means I'm getting a $244-$290 value for my $275 pledge.

(its only 9 minis for 1mil. 2 for 300K and +1 every 100K thereafter = 9)

Hmmm... I wonder what James L. Sutter's Level will be? City of Strangers, The Asylum Stone, Distant Worlds, Inner Sea Bestiary... I've enjoyed every book he's had a hand in so far. I'm hoping his level is has some Distant World Connections.

I've confirmed with Mike as well, that when this funds we plan to release Chronicle sheets to sanction every level for Pathfinder Society play, including any above 12th level. So if you want more content for your Pathfinders, back the project! Make sure it gets funded! Go go go! YAAAAAAY!

Mark you gave that up toooooo easy, that should have been a stretch goal

Are the minis KS exclusive? Are they all repaints of existing minis? Will there be another way to get them, without getting all the PFO stuff?

I'm interested in them and in the mega dungeon, but the PVP sandbox MMO has no real interest to me (it just doesn't sound fun), so I don't want a copy of it. I'll pledge to help get it made in return for PF (not O) stuff, though!

I just upped my amount by $100, now I'm excited.

Are the minis KS exclusive? Are they all repaints of existing minis? Will there be another way to get them, without getting all the PFO stuff?

I'm interested in them and in the mega dungeon, but the PVP sandbox MMO has no real interest to me (it just doesn't sound fun), so I don't want a copy of it. I'll pledge to help get it made in return for PF (not O) stuff, though!

The looks of the miniatures is that they are repaints of existing miniatures atleast for the 2 shown (Note that I don't buy the miniatures so I don't absolutely know for certain but that's what I've been told by a friend who does buy them).

As to the exclusivity of them I would lean towards yes on that matter. This is of course opinion and conjecture of course but the only guaranteed way to ensure you got the miniatures is to support the kickstarter at the $100 reward level (the $105 support [which is actually the $5 reward level] should not get the miniatures I believe but will get the physical book and the physical flipmats and adventure cards)...

If you want to get both physical game materials and the miniatures, the way to go is to pledge $200...

Pledging also has the benefit of possibly getting you more miniatures as well as even getting the stuff.

BTW if you look earlier in the post, the math has been shown that pledging at almost every level will get you NEARLY THE SAME AMOUNT OR MORE in just Pathfinder Tabletop gaming materials (not the MMO stuff) in comparison to what you actually pledged. It's a good deal man and you supporting the kickstarter will could make it even more your worthwhile than just waiting for the kickstarter to be done.

@Blave

I was confused as well but then I went back and reread the project page.

Additional levels by superstar designers will be announced at each additional $100k until the end of the project. That means a MINIMUM of 12 dungeon levels over 128 pages, but the further we blow past that goal, the bigger the Emerald Spire becomes!

So you're right, it is either at least 12 levels or more, or no book and no levels. Seems kind of strange, why not just say, "If we reach a million bucks we will give you a 12 level dungeon, plus more if we raise more that a million." But I can see them wanting to add to the fun of the race to a $1,000,000 by 'unlocking' levels as the support rolls in.

Okay - that sold me. You have my 35 + 100 + 15 = 150 dollar for print-pack-adventurer :)

Woah -- a superdungeon with levels designed by Wes, Wolfgang, James, Lisa, and Rich Baker? HOLY CRAP! Dreams (maybe) do come true! *Runs to donate*

Well at least I have until January to see where I stand.

Mine all mine...don't touch wrote:

This product is likely to be made either way isn't it?

Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here. I really have zero interest in supporting a video game I will never play.

Nope! While it's true that if the Kickstarter succeeds and we make the book, we have the option to publish it as well farther down the road, a book like this is still a HUGE expenditure of time, money, and talent--hence the reason we haven't done it before. If the Kickstarter doesn't succeed, the incentive to do all that extra work on top of our normal product schedule drops through the floor.

If you want a superstar megadungeon, support the Kickstarter. Every person who signs up makes the book bigger, and gets you more bang for your buck! It's also one of the few times when we're letting the fans directly set the product specs. So by donating enough, it would theoretically be possible to get a 300-page hardcover dungeon book for just $100, with the side benefit of knowing that you're also getting every Paizo developer's weekends for several months. :D

So, if the kickstarter fails all of these awesome writers will have more time to devote to APs, Modules and the other good stuff subscribers like me support?

I just find this whole thing incredibly weird: Reaper promoted their minis kickstarter with... minis!
To excite the minis audience.

That is how all of the other kickstarters I see work.

Why is Paizo using TabletopRPG sourcebooks to promote a computer game?

It just seems like they are milking the eager Golorianistas.

:(

@GeraintElberion - there is tremendous synergy between Goblinworks and Paizo. A lot of the materials we'll be making for the next several years has applications Paizo can consider leveraging. Having a library of poseable 3D models of monsters and characters, for example has a pretty big value.

The potential is also very real for Pathfinder Online to build the audience for Pathfinder Tabletop by exposing people who may never have heard of the game.

But in order to start reaping those benefits we need to get the game completed and into the hands of players. So Paizo can help us by supporting our Kickstarter, and then in turn, we'll be able to return to the favor many times over in the future.

Why would it say an exclusive cover if only available to backers? This product is likely to be made either way isn't it? Someone from Paizo please let us know what the whole story is here.

This product will ONLY be made if we reach the $1 million funding goal for this Kickstarter. None of the print products will be made. Could we eventually do a much smaller Fort Inevitable sourcebook? Sure. But it would be something like 32 pages and wouldn't include a Superdungeon with an all-star cast of authors. The ONLY way that is getting made is if we get our funding.

-Lisa

The way I read it, the dungeon will be made and released regardless of the Kickstarter success. Otherwise, I don't know why they'd say it starts at 4 levels and reaches 12 levels when the million is met. I mean, if it isn't made unless the goal is reached, why not simply say "When the Kickstarter is successful, we'll release a 12 level Superdungeon. Stretch goals beyond the 1 million mark will add additional levels."

As I said above, this product will only be made if we reach our funding. Why are we revealing it slowly instead of just saying it will be a 12 level Superdungeon and be done with it? Because we like a little drama. Because we want to keep things interesting as we creep up the funding ladder. Because we are still on the horn talking to famous contacts in the industry and trying to get some really cool authors to come on board. Because it is fun this way. :)

-Lisa

Glad you're extending this past the new year. Not sure how much money will be available once tuition is paid for, but hopefully it will be enough.

Thanks for being on the boards Lisa. My hopes, and hopefully soon money, goes with you.

Are the minis KS exclusive? Are they all repaints of existing minis? Will there be another way to get them, without getting all the PFO stuff?

At this point, we have no plans to make them available in any other way. That doesn't mean that plans could change. But right now, we expect the Kickstarter will end up using up all the minis that we will be printing. If not, then we might make whatever remains available somewhere down the line. But there is no certainty of that. The only certainty is that Kickstarter backers will get these minis IF the Kickstarter hits its funding level. Everything else is speculative.

-Lisa

Now if there was only a way to get multiples of each of the miniatures wihout having to pledge a huge $500, which is sadly outside my budget. These look good but you typically need several of a mini per encounter, especially things like goblins and undead.

I just find this whole thing incredibly weird: Reaper promoted their minis kickstarter with... minis!

To excite the minis audience.

That is how all of the other kickstarters I see work.

Why is Paizo using TabletopRPG sourcebooks to promote a computer game?

It just seems like they are milking the eager Golorianistas.

:(

- re reaper promotion: And t-shirts, and hats, and paints, and pictures, and RPG PDFs. This is precisely how I see every Kickstarter promote their product, at least the ones I have supported (10 of them now). Pretty typical.

- Not milking, more like offering a bargain for a product that would not otherwise be made.

As I said above, this product will only be made if we reach our funding. Why are we revealing it slowly instead of just saying it will be a 12 level Superdungeon and be done with it? Because we like a little drama. Because we want to keep things interesting as we creep up the funding ladder. Because we are still on the horn talking to famous contacts in the industry and trying to get some really cool authors to come on board. Because it is fun this way. :)

-Lisa

I'd say this is pretty important information. We need to make sure to pledge, in order to get the goods! The upside is that it is a great bargain that will only get more valuable.

There will be quite a few of the minis on eBay soon after they ship. I suspect that there will be a lot of people reselling them to offset the costs of pledging.

As fan of Frog God (and formerly Necromancer Games) I wonder...will this dungeon be that much more massive than Rappan Athuk? Or what?

Quick Q:

The Emerald Spire Superdungeon includes 32 pages of source material detailing the area around Fort Inevitable, one of the starter towns in the Pathfinder Online game. It will also add at least four, 8-page dungeon levels, designed by Pathfinder superstars Richard L. Baker, F. Wesley Schneider, Wolfgang Baur and James L. Sutter.

Will all these, in addition to Fort Inevitable, I mean the dungeon and levels also be in Pathfinder Online to explore with our avatars? I believe that's what Thornkeep does/will do and wondered if this will also "materialize" and be explorable in game also? /thanks in advance.

Quick Q:

Quote:

The Emerald Spire Superdungeon includes 32 pages of source material detailing the area around Fort Inevitable, one of the starter towns in the Pathfinder Online game. It will also add at least four, 8-page dungeon levels, designed by Pathfinder superstars Richard L. Baker, F. Wesley Schneider, Wolfgang Baur and James L. Sutter.

Will all these, in addition to Fort Inevitable, I mean the dungeon and levels also be in Pathfinder Online to explore with our avatars? I believe that's what Thornkeep does/will do and wondered if this will also "materialize" and be explorable in game also? /thanks in advance.

OMG if that's the case, please let us know. I didn't even think of that. Now that's something the MMO community will go nuts over, if there's plans for a Free Form Super Dungeon in the video game.

Now that the Kickstarter has reached 250k will we find out who the next author is? Or at least what the overall theme of the megadungeon is? Or if we'll get to vote on Author levels like we did on Thornkeep?