Ultimate Combat Preview #2

Wow. I actually want to play a monk.

Wow. I actually want to play a monk.

This is just the tip of the iceberg!

SCHWING!

Man, Ultimate Combat is gonna be sooooooo rad.

Am I the only one who is confused? What is a performance combat check?

For Crane Wing, can you activate it after damage is rolled, or do you have to use it before?

Am I the only one who is confused? What is a performance combat check?

There is a section on optional rules. Performance combat is in that section. Think running gladiatorial combat and trying to win the favor of the crowd.

Golden-Esque wrote:

Am I the only one who is confused? What is a performance combat check?

There is a section on optional rules. Performance combat is in that section. Think running gladiatorial combat and trying to win the favor of the crowd.

Correct.

Am I the only one who is confused? What is a performance combat check?

Sounds like a quasi-new mechanic. Hopefully built on the bones of Combat Maneuvers. Do some stuff then make a roll against a DC to do some extra cool stuff.

You guys may or may not have based the Crane Style tree/picture on the Karate Kid, but that's what it reminded me of... One of my favorites! I just restructured my next character to include those feats. :)

You guys may or may not have based the Crane Style tree/picture on the Karate Kid, but that's what it reminded me of... One of my favorites! I just restructured my next character to include those feats. :)

C'mon now, don't make me sweep the leg!

Jason Bulmahn
Sensei
Cobra Kai Dojo

Murderer's Circle (Combat, Performance)

After savaging your foe, you circle like a hunter ready for the kill.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Acrobatics 4 ranks.
Benefit: When you spend a swift action to make a performance combat check after scoring a critical hit or performing a combat maneuver, and you are adjacent to the target of the critical hit or combat maneuver, you can move to any other space that is adjacent to the target without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must have a clear path to that space and the ability to reach it by spending a move action. If you end this move in any space other than the one where you started, you gain a +2 bonus on the performance combat check.

What does the latter bolded part MEAN? Is it trying to say that the first bolded part functions as a Move Action (in a wierd indirect way)? Or is it saying that you must have a Move Action available, even though this movement doesn´t use any action (since it´s triggered by the stated events, and says ´you can move´ when those occur)? Or that this movement must be within your normal move speed/distance? Or something completely different?

Since it uses a Swift Action, it sounds like this Performance check is something that must happen on your turn (i.e. not AoO´s) ...?

Otherwise/Overall, this book seems very cool... :-)

malebranche wrote:

You guys may or may not have based the Crane Style tree/picture on the Karate Kid, but that's what it reminded me of... One of my favorites! I just restructured my next character to include those feats. :)

C'mon now, don't make me sweep the leg!

Jason Bulmahn
Sensei
Cobra Kai Dojo

Mercy is for the weak! :p

C'mon Johnny!

You're the best... around!

Quote:

Murderer's Circle (Combat, Performance)

After savaging your foe, you circle like a hunter ready for the kill.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Acrobatics 4 ranks.
Benefit: When you spend a swift action to make a performance combat check after scoring a critical hit or performing a combat maneuver, and you are adjacent to the target of the critical hit or combat maneuver, you can move to any other space that is adjacent to the target without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must have a clear path to that space and the ability to reach it by spending a move action. If you end this move in any space other than the one where you started, you gain a +2 bonus on the performance combat check.

What does the latter bolded part MEAN? Is it trying to say that the first bolded part functions as a Move Action (in a wierd indirect way)? Or is it saying that you must have a Move Action available, even though this movement doesn´t use any action (since it´s triggered by the stated events, and says ´you can move´ when those occur)? Or that this movement must be within your normal move speed/distance? Or something completely different?

Otherwise/Overall, this book seems very cool... :-)

I would say it's analogous to something like using the Ride skill to Fast Dismount: you have to have a move action available to try it, but if you succeed it's only a free action.

In the case of Murderer's Circle, you couldn't do a full attack, hit with your last iterative, and then move ten feet to the other side of your enemy, nor could you move up to your foe, smack him, and then gain an extra 10 feet of movement for the round.

Edit: or what that Jason guy said. He seems to know what he's talking about.

Quote:

Murderer's Circle (Combat, Performance)

After savaging your foe, you circle like a hunter ready for the kill.
Prerequisites: Dodge, Acrobatics 4 ranks.
Benefit: When you spend a swift action to make a performance combat check after scoring a critical hit or performing a combat maneuver, and you are adjacent to the target of the critical hit or combat maneuver, you can move to any other space that is adjacent to the target without provoking attacks of opportunity. You must have a clear path to that space and the ability to reach it by spending a move action. If you end this move in any space other than the one where you started, you gain a +2 bonus on the performance combat check.

What does the latter bolded part MEAN? Is it trying to say that the first bolded part functions as a Move Action (in a wierd indirect way)? Or is it saying that you must have a Move Action available, even though this movement doesn´t use any action (since it´s triggered by the stated events, and says ´you can move´ when those occur)? Or that this movement must be within your normal move speed/distance? Or something completely different?

Since it uses a Swift Action, it sounds like this Performance check is something that must happen on your turn...?

Otherwise/Overall, this book seems very cool... :-)

It means that the space you wish to reach must be one that you could reach if you spent a move action to do so. In other words, it might not allow you to reach the opposite side of a colossal creature, since you do not have the move to get all the way around it. The movement itself is still free.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

OK, that makes sense (Move Speed limiting ability to move around Colossal creature), the ´You must have... the ability to reach it by spending a move action´ wording was just confusing, i.e. appearing to require having a Move Action remaining (thus implying the movement spends that action).

I would have phrased it without any intimation of ´ability to... spend a move action´, and just restricted it to ´within the distance allowed by your move speed / a move action´. 20/20 hind-sight and all.

There's just so much love I can pre-emptively feel for Ultimate Combat. Go go warehouse team!

Holy $%*^! Nine-page-table. That's huge. Cant wait for this book!

For Crane Wing, can you activate it after damage is rolled, or do you have to use it before?

If do right, no can defense.

Can you use Crane Style while grappling or being grappled? Can you use it when you're prone?

Can you use Crane Style while grappling or being grappled? Can you use it when you're prone?

Can you use it in the dark? Can you use it on an Ark?

(Sorry been reading Dr. Seuss to the kids.)

Would you, could you, with a goat?

...

Floating on a Moat

Maerimydra wrote:

Can you use Crane Style while grappling or being grappled? Can you use it when you're prone?

Can you use it in the dark? Can you use it on an Ark?

(Sorry been reading Dr. Seuss to the kids.)

Yes and yes.

Yes because you can fight defensively in the dark, so you can use Crane Style. However, you cannot use Crane Wing against an attack that you're not aware off.

Yes because you can make a melee attack on an Ark. :)

Nice #2 Preview and last since...

I am happy just got my notice that this book has shipped.

Nice #2 Preview and last since...

I am happy just got my notice that this book has shipped.

Me too, serious joy joy

monks rock. This is just more reason to love them

monks rock. This is just more reason to love them

I agree, this book made monks awesome!

Would you, could you, with a goat?

...

I just hope that if you do, I'm not there to see it.

And yes, this book is 100% awesome. I won't be using the optional rules, but I'm *really* looking forward to having a big 'ol gladatorial combat using the performance rules.

Oooooh ... sounds like the kind of thing that would be right up the alley of certain Lords of the Nine ...

Do you need a crowd to use Performance feats or no? It'd be kinda silly to master fighting maneuvers that only work when a crowd is watching, but they mysteriously stop working on enemies when the crowd isn't there

Wow, super cool idea!!!! I hope and pray all 5 of the classic animals are represented (crane, tiger, dragon, leopard, snake). I really like that picture, aside from one thing ... his crane stance is pretty bad! The raised foot should be angled in to protect the family jewels; with that stance, his gro-in is wide open!!

Do you need a crowd to use Performance feats or no? It'd be kinda silly to master fighting maneuvers that only work when a crowd is watching, but they mysteriously stop working on enemies when the crowd isn't there

While I agree to a point, I would also equate some of them to an adrenaline rush that a gladiator feeds off of from the roar of the crowd.

Now, I haven't actually seen these performance feats yet, but if they work like I imagine, I am sticking with that! ;p

Wow, super cool idea!!!! I hope and pray all 5 of the classic animals are represented (crane, tiger, dragon, leopard, snake). I really like that picture, aside from one thing ... his crane stance is pretty bad! The raised foot should be angled in to protect the family jewels; with that stance, his gro-in is wide open!!

Don't forget Mantis! Good for catching bugs, but not Tigers! Gosh, I love that movie!!!!

Do you need a crowd to use Performance feats or no? It'd be kinda silly to master fighting maneuvers that only work when a crowd is watching, but they mysteriously stop working on enemies when the crowd isn't there

There's a feat that lets you get around this.

Two points of discussion:

1. No Panda style? :( ;p

2. Will the precedents set by Ultimate Combat be supported in other products? For example, will there be new Golarion-specific styles in the Tian Xia/Dragon Empires companion?

Wow. I actually want to play a monk.

In that case, mission accomplished! :)

Two points of discussion:

1. No Panda style? :( ;p

2. Will the precedents set by Ultimate Combat be supported in other products? For example, will there be new Golarion-specific styles in the Tian Xia/Dragon Empires companion?

I can't speak for that product in particular, but my magic 8-ball says that yes, some future products may build on things in Ultimate Combat. Not that I'm currently working on such a product or anything... :)

I'm not sure I see any mechanical use to taking Murderer's Circle, but a group of ragged-robed dire corby rogues circling you in the half-darkness as they slash away, softly chanting 'doom, doom' is kind of a neat visual.

Screw the monk. I'm going to make a fighter with this style. They have oodles of attack bonus to spare. Suck up -1 attack penalty in exchange for +3 AC AND negate 1 melee attack each round AND can counter attack? HELL YES!

Heck, I'll combine it with a shield basher build. Using the shield as his primary weapon means he can do some SERIOUS tanking AND still keep a hand free for Crane Style. Woohoo!

malebranche wrote:

You guys may or may not have based the Crane Style tree/picture on the Karate Kid, but that's what it reminded me of... One of my favorites! I just restructured my next character to include those feats. :)

C'mon now, don't make me sweep the leg!

Jason Bulmahn
Sensei
Cobra Kai Dojo

There fixed for the better :)

Screw the monk. I'm going to make a fighter with this style. They have oodles of attack bonus to spare. Suck up -1 attack penalty in exchange for +3 AC AND negate 1 melee attack each round AND can counter attack? HELL YES!

I can just imagine the post you'll make when you discover Panther style and the Dervish Dancer bard.

Screw the monk. I'm going to make a fighter with this style. They have oodles of attack bonus to spare. Suck up -1 attack penalty in exchange for +3 AC AND negate 1 melee attack each round AND can counter attack? HELL YES!

Heck, I'll combine it with a shield basher build. Using the shield as his primary weapon means he can do some SERIOUS tanking AND still keep a hand free for Crane Style. Woohoo!

Keep in mind that with at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics that is +4 AC; but on the other hand, there are loads of styles - maybe there's something even sexier for you in there. Then what?

Screw the monk. I'm going to make a fighter with this style. They have oodles of attack bonus to spare. Suck up -1 attack penalty in exchange for +3 AC AND negate 1 melee attack each round AND can counter attack? HELL YES!

Heck, I'll combine it with a shield basher build. Using the shield as his primary weapon means he can do some SERIOUS tanking AND still keep a hand free for Crane Style. Woohoo!

Shield attack can't be done as a primary weapon. Check out the Core Rulebook weapons chapter: "You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

It says what it does and it does what it says.

You can use your primary hand for Crane Style though.

I can just imagine the post you'll make when you discover Panther style and the Dervish Dancer bard.

There are better styles? Squeee! :D

Keep in mind that with at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics that is +4 AC; but on the other hand, there are loads of styles - maybe there's something even sexier for you in there. Then what?

I was already taking that into account. Fighting Defensively normally gets you +2, having 3 ranks in Acrobatics makes it into a +3.

I could get even more with full defense, but then I can't attack at all.

So...either I'm misremembering, or you are.

Shield attack can't be done as a primary weapon. Check out the Core Rulebook weapons chapter: "You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

It says what it does and it does what it says.

Developers have already debunked that one. You are likely right when using the shield in conjunction with another weapon, but if I ONLY attack with the shield in a round, it is considered my primary weapon.

Don't forget Mantis! Good for catching bugs, but not Tigers! Gosh, I love that movie!!!!

Me, too! Jackie Chan plays the old school sifu to a T; I'm guessing he had lots of firsthand experience! :)

I agree with Yu Lan, tho; Mantis is cool but doesn't really have a 'gimmick' beyond perhaps trapping and disarming ... would still like to see these ideas in their final form, of course.

(Also curious to see how Jade Oath approaches the animal/elements)

I thought of Karate Kid first too when I read "Crane Style." After reading Crane Riposte, I thought of the monk Lei Fei from Virtua Fighter 4, as the feat perfectly duplicates one of my favorite counter-moves from that game.

While it is quite clear what the RAI is for the pre-reqs of the Crane Style tree, I get a little confused on the first reading of pre-reqs that use an "or" to seperate the last two items in a series of more than two. The RAW (at least using the common usage of "or" in a series) would mean that any one of the pre-reqs listed would satisify it. Paizo does a good a job of being consistent with their formatting though, so what's meant is usually decipherable.

Me, too! Jackie Chan plays the old school sifu to a T; I'm guessing he had lots of firsthand experience! :)

It helps that he was a natural to the drunken fist fighting style.

Aeshuura wrote:

Don't forget Mantis! Good for catching bugs, but not Tigers! Gosh, I love that movie!!!!

Me, too! Jackie Chan plays the old school sifu to a T; I'm guessing he had lots of firsthand experience! :)

I agree with Yu Lan, tho; Mantis is cool but doesn't really have a 'gimmick' beyond perhaps trapping and disarming ... would still like to see these ideas in their final form, of course.

(Also curious to see how Jade Oath approaches the animal/elements)

I also liked that he kind of reprised his role as Drunken Master... There was so much in that movie that I see in Jade Regent too. Especially when you read the description for Jade Regent #4...

LoreKeeper wrote:

Keep in mind that with at least 3 ranks in Acrobatics that is +4 AC; but on the other hand, there are loads of styles - maybe there's something even sexier for you in there. Then what?

I was already taking that into account. Fighting Defensively normally gets you +2, having 3 ranks in Acrobatics makes it into a +3.

I could get even more with full defense, but then I can't attack at all.

So...either I'm misremembering, or you are.

Fighting defensively gets you +2 AC already, then the feat:

While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.

Adds +1

Then acrobatics at 3+ ranks adds another +1.

Total of +4 ;)

Jason Nelson wrote:

Shield attack can't be done as a primary weapon. Check out the Core Rulebook weapons chapter: "You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon."

It says what it does and it does what it says.

Developers have already debunked that one. You are likely right when using the shield in conjunction with another weapon, but if I ONLY attack with the shield in a round, it is considered my primary weapon.

Have they now? I don't comb the boards as thoroughly as a lotta folks do, so I must've missed that clarification.