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So here is one. He's built to be a multilayered fighter, with some control and buffing options as well as just a good solid whack. Outside of a fight, he's a good advisor.
I admit that seems better at combat than I was expecting.
I think that he gets a +6 to hit
(Veteran, Grandfathers sword, slash, flourish, Strategist, Find Opening)
And a 1 or 2 point mitigate (Take the blow, maybe veteran).
But its very good to see what you think a reasonable character is to help create our own.
@Anirtak - thanks, that helps a lot. I think my theme tags need to be a bit shorter!
THEMES: Former Gang Enforcer; Survived Sasserine's Streets; Nimble Half-Elf; Seeking Redemption
So here is one. He's built to be a multilayered fighter, with some control and buffing options as well as just a good solid whack. Outside of a fight, he's a good advisor.I admit that seems better at combat than I was expecting.
I think that he gets a +6 to hit
(Veteran, Grandfathers sword, slash, flourish, Strategist, Find Opening)
And a 1 or 2 point mitigate (Take the blow, maybe veteran).
I don't know that you'd get to use all of them in one go, though - eg slash/flourish look like alternatives? It looks more like having a bunch of related tags so that whatever hapoens in a fight, you have a couple of options.
So here is one. He's built to be a multilayered fighter, with some control and buffing options as well as just a good solid whack. Outside of a fight, he's a good advisor.I admit that seems better at combat than I was expecting.
I think that he gets a +6 to hit
(Veteran, Grandfathers sword, slash, flourish, Strategist, Find Opening)
And a 1 or 2 point mitigate (Take the blow, maybe veteran).But its very good to see what you think a reasonable character is to help create our own.
Flourish and Strategist I wouldn't tag for a straight attack. Flourish would be to intimidate, Strategist would be used with Find Opening to prep an action to create a vulnerability, or with Hold Ground to cut off an advance.
Also, he was based on a PF Human Fighter so Fighting was sort of his only thing. I should probably have used a different example. Oh Well.
@Anirtak - thanks, that helps a lot. I think my theme tags need to be a bit shorter!
THEMES: Former Gang Enforcer; Survived Sasserine's Streets; Nimble Half-Elf; Seeking Redemption
I don't know that you'd get to use all of them in one go, though - eg slash/flourish look like alternatives? It looks more like having a bunch of related tags so that whatever hapoens in a fight, you have a couple of options.
So here is one. He's built to be a multilayered fighter, with some control and buffing options as well as just a good solid whack. Outside of a fight, he's a good advisor.I admit that seems better at combat than I was expecting.
I think that he gets a +6 to hit
(Veteran, Grandfathers sword, slash, flourish, Strategist, Find Opening)
And a 1 or 2 point mitigate (Take the blow, maybe veteran).
I like to keep tags to three words, but that's my aesthetic, and not a requirement. That said, I like the updates.
And yes, using all 6 tags on any one roll would be... questionable. Flourish and Slash don't seem compatible, as you point out, and Strategist is more for controlling the battlefield than whacking a guy. etc.
I’m still following along.
@ - Anirtak: I’m not sure how much of that spellcasting is the LitM system, and how much of it is your creation (I’m guessing the latter) but I do like it a lot. I don’t even play spellcasters much (occasionally druids/warpriests/inquisitors and possibly sorcerors) but I feel like this actually gives spellcasters way more options to be narratively impactful without the strictures of spell-lists and spell slots.
As for quests - I’m definitely apt to having a character Abandon the quest. And totally ok with getting a weaker one with Promise. The Hero’s Quest is a road littered with good intentions…that you totes changed your mind about. My poor character…
I’m still following along.
@ - Anirtak: I’m not sure how much of that spellcasting is the LitM system, and how much of it is your creation (I’m guessing the latter) but I do like it a lot. I don’t even play spellcasters much (occasionally druids/warpriests/inquisitors and possibly sorcerors) but I feel like this actually gives spellcasters way more options to be narratively impactful without the strictures of spell-lists and spell slots.
As for quests - I’m definitely apt to having a character Abandon the quest. And totally ok with getting a weaker one with Promise. The Hero’s Quest is a road littered with good intentions…that you totes changed your mind about. My poor character…
There isn't an official LitM magic system. There is a default assumption that you're going to use tags and a very nice toolkit to help you make magic do what you want. So, I used the toolkit.
I'm looking forward to seeing your character!
The other two things that change your themes are more potent, and have to do with your quests. When you mark 3 Milestones on one of your quests, you can Evolve or Expand that theme. This is a much bigger deal, so marking milestones will be something that the Narrator must agree on.
If you mark 3 Abandon on your quests - when you've turned away from your quest in potentially significant moments - you Replace your theme. This is bad (the new theme is, at least to start with, weaker) but very good, because it gets you Promise. And Promise is good. Again, more on that later.
Oh wow, in that case I'm changing my Quest from "Am I bad person?" to "I do what I must to survive" to reflect the conflict between her old and new self. As she turns more to good and keeps refusing to do stuff like burn down orphanages, her Gang Enforcer theme will slowly disappear, to be replacrd by - who knows?
I think this game would be really good for running APs where there are trait tie-ins, you just make the trait a tag or posibky even a theme. Although for CotCT you'd definitely have to tell the players "Don't make *all* your Quests relate to Gaedren Lamm because spoiler alert, he doesn't last thst long!"
As for quests - I’m definitely apt to having a character Abandon the quest. And totally ok with getting a weaker one with Promise. The Hero’s Quest is a road littered with good intentions…that you totes changed your mind about. My poor character…
Absolutely - you've got love a game that *rewards* me for putting my chracter through the hell I was going to put them anyway!
I take it your hives aren't bothering you so much? :P
The other two things that change your themes are more potent, and have to do with your quests. When you mark 3 Milestones on one of your quests, you can Evolve or Expand that theme. This is a much bigger deal, so marking milestones will be something that the Narrator must agree on.
If you mark 3 Abandon on your quests - when you've turned away from your quest in potentially significant moments - you Replace your theme. This is bad (the new theme is, at least to start with, weaker) but very good, because it gets you Promise. And Promise is good. Again, more on that later.
Oh wow, in that case I'm changing my Quest from "Am I bad person?" to "I do what I must to survive" to reflect the conflict between her old and new self. As she turns more to good and keeps refusing to do stuff like burn down orphanages, her Gang Enforcer theme will slowly disappear, to be replacrd by - who knows?
I think this game would be really good for running APs where there are trait tie-ins, you just make the trait a tag or posibky even a theme. Although for CotCT you'd definitely have to tell the players "Don't make *all* your Quests relate to Gaedren Lamm because spoiler alert, he doesn't last thst long!"
As for quests - I’m definitely apt to having a character Abandon the quest. And totally ok with getting a weaker one with Promise. The Hero’s Quest is a road littered with good intentions…that you totes changed your mind about. My poor character…Absolutely - you've got love a game that *rewards* me for putting my chracter through the hell I was going to put them anyway!
I take it your hives aren't bothering you so much? :P
The hives thing was a cheap shot... you really do fight dirty! ;)
And either of those quests are good. From a narrative standpoint, I think it's more interesting to have quests that succeed and quests that fail. From a mechanical standpoint, they've done (imho) a really good job of making both outcomes beneficial.
CoCT would def need a 1 Gaedren Quest per character cap. Savage Tide doesn't have a pre-existing mission that way - I was sort of thinking of putting something in place (hell, Gaedren could have worked well in Sasserine) but I want to get to the stuff that matters ASAP.
LitM assumes a sandbox with each character pursuing their own agenda. Adventure Paths, less so, so I'm going to have to figure something out. I may just flag certain moments and allow everyone to rewrite a quest to follow the AP.
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I gotta admit, it's trickier to come up with a concept than I expected as I'm not used to this paradigm (yet). I'm used to using things like class, skill sets and prestige class as archetypes to model my character's backstory and personality around, even other PBTA games tend to do this with their playbooks giving you specific skillsets and tools unique to the one you pick and encouraging players to not "double up" on the same playbook for a more balanced group. But this seems more interested in taking a unique group of people and having them use whatever their specific skills or interests are to deal with situations in creative ways. Not a criticism, I think it's cool that this encourages thinking about character creation more from a "writing" perspective instead of the character starting with a chassis of numbers and rules and a personality then hung over it!
I've decided to save the Jasidin "eldritch knight" for Age of Worms but that does take me back to square one. Gonna have to reread the Player's Guide a bit more closely to see if anything "jumps out" at me...
I gotta admit, it's trickier to come up with a concept than I expected as I'm not used to this paradigm (yet). I'm used to using things like class, skill sets and prestige class as archetypes to model my character's backstory and personality around, even other PBTA games tend to do this with their playbooks giving you specific skillsets and tools unique to the one you pick and encouraging players to not "double up" on the same playbook for a more balanced group. But this seems more interested in taking a unique group of people and having them use whatever their specific skills or interests are to deal with situations in creative ways. Not a criticism, I think it's cool that this encourages thinking about character creation more from a "writing" perspective instead of the character starting with a chassis of numbers and rules and a personality then hung over it!
I've decided to save the Jasidin "eldritch knight" for Age of Worms but that does take me back to square one. Gonna have to reread the Player's Guide a bit more closely to see if anything "jumps out" at me...
Yeah, it is a huge shift. Chargen is closer to Fate than PbtA. Most PbtA games actually frustrate me because the playbooks feel constricting. The play, on the other hand, I love, so LitM kind of solves for X, by freeing up chargen. That's me, of course. I like as much freedom as possible.
One suggestion that I've seen is basically starting with a level 1 character in D&D or Pathfinder. One theme is your class, one is your heritage, the other two can reflect your origin, or archetype, or feats, or alignment, or skills, or essential equipment, or a major class features (like spellcasting) that might need more than the three tags from one theme.
Druidic Magic, Wild Shape, Gnome, Summon Nature's Ally
Elvish Agility, Self Taught Alchemist, Formula Book, High Explosives
Dwarven Defender, Heavy Armor, Moria, Jeweler
Obviously these still need their other tags and quests, etc but hopefully you can see how you might start finding inspiration in the rules that you're familiar with?
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Obviously these still need their other tags and quests, etc but...
Personally, I find NOT hewing to a D&D class very liberating.
Trail more or less started as a Catfolk Ranger/Druid (Given what site we're on, hardly surprising that I started with Catfolk and then got to Tabaxi :-)). But I'm finding his current incarnation significantly more interesting than that.
Obviously these still need their other tags and quests, etc but...Personally, I find NOT hewing to a D&D class very liberating.
Trail more or less started as a Catfolk Ranger/Druid (Given what site we're on, hardly surprising that I started with Catfolk and then got to Tabaxi :-)). But I'm finding his current incarnation significantly more interesting than that.
I kinda like that, too, but I thought it might be helpful as a starting place.
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Ok, here is my second major attempt to define Trail.
Leaning into the Shamanism a fair bit, and spent some more attention on the Quests and Weaknesses now that I realize how central to the play and growth of the character they will end up being.
Feedback definitely solicited.
Trail in the Woods (Trail) is an adult Tabaxi who until recently lived with his very primitive people in the Amedio Jungle. While, like all of his people, he is a hunter of no mean skill he has also recently become the Shaman of his tribe.
When he came of age he, as is the custom, went on a spirit quest. During that quest, he met his Spirit Guide, a wise but mischievous monkey named Silver Tongue (Silver). When Silver decided to stay with him more or less permanently, it was clear that he was destined to become a Shaman.
A few weeks ago, Silver Tongue told Trail in the Woods that his destiny lay away from his tribe. There was a great danger threatening the world and it has become his responsibility to help to stop it. He needed to go to the Huts of the Hairless Apes, his quest would start there.
He has only very recently arrived in Sasserine. Will very definitely be a fish out of water for at least a while. I'm assuming he speaks Tabaxi and enough Common to get by.
Whenever I say spirits below, I mean the Animist view of spirits. Animals, plants, people, rocks, rivers, etc all have a spirit. Does NOT include ghosts, abstract concepts, or anything beyond stone age technology.
While this is partly an independent being with a will and personality of its own it is ALSO a part of Trails. So, its personality bleeds through to Trail, its abilities bleed through.
Note that Silver Tongue can NOT take independent form, except maybe under some extreme circumstances at the GMs whim. No incorporeal scout shenanigans or anything like that.
Mechanically, I'm kinda hoping that this adds +1 power to most shaman activities
Theme - Stealthy Tabaxi
Positives - moves like a cat, cat claws
Negative - easily startled
Quest - reconcile feline animal nature and sapient self
Theme - Animist Shaman
Positives - communicate with spirits, get favours from spirits
Negative - Must remain in harmony with the spirits
Quest - Become a Master Shaman
Theme - Protector of the Natural World
Positives - Warrior, Spirits protect me
Negative - I hate technology and its mutual
Quest - Defend the natural world
Theme - Silver Tongue - Monkey Spirit Guide
Positives - Very observant, Silver Tongue
Negative - mischievous
Quest - What the heck is going on?
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I kinda like that, too, but I thought it might be helpful as a starting place.
Obviously these still need their other tags and quests, etc but...Personally, I find NOT hewing to a D&D class very liberating.
Trail more or less started as a Catfolk Ranger/Druid (Given what site we're on, hardly surprising that I started with Catfolk and then got to Tabaxi :-)). But I'm finding his current incarnation significantly more interesting than that.
Oh yeah, definitely
Ok, here is my second major attempt to define Trail.
Leaning into the Shamanism a fair bit, and spent some more attention on the Quests and Weaknesses now that I realize how central to the play and growth of the character they will end up being.
Feedback definitely solicited.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I like it a lot. Especially "I hate technology and it's mutual." Probably because I know the feeling!
The "Silver Tongue - Monkey Spirit Guide" theme with the "Silver Tongue" tag: I would definitely change the Silver Tongue tag, because it's not giving us anything we don't already have. Remember, the theme name is also a tag.
Is it a monkey which embodies the Monkey Spirit? or is it an invisible spirit? Maybe use the tag to define it a bit more. And I don't really know what the quest is about?
Also... a bit about NPC allies and pets, companions, etc. Mechanically, they exist as tags. So, if you were going to do incorporeal scouting with Silver Tongue, you could. But that would be your action. If you are in a battle and you have an ally with some good tags, you want to have them do a thing, you can use their tags. Then that's your turn.
It's highly counter-intuitive for those who are used to a PF style game, and the best thing I can say on the subject is to think of it like a movie, where each main character gets about as much camera time as the next. So your moment is leading a charge of hundreds, in a big, epic battle scene, while the next character's spotlight is them alone, trying to deactivate the doomsday device, and the next character is dueling their mortal enemy. Your action may involve hundreds of individuals, but the narrative impact is just about you.
Hopefully that makes sense.
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Ok, here is my second major attempt to define Trail.
Leaning into the Shamanism a fair bit, and spent some more attention on the Quests and Weaknesses now that I realize how central to the play and growth of the character they will end up being.
Feedback definitely solicited.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I like it a lot. Especially "I hate technology and it's mutual." Probably because I know the feeling!
The "Silver Tongue - Monkey Spirit Guide" theme with the "Silver Tongue" tag: I would definitely change the Silver Tongue tag, because it's not giving us anything we don't already have. Remember, the theme name is also a tag.
Is it a monkey which embodies the Monkey Spirit? or is it an invisible spirit? Maybe use the tag to define it a bit more. And I don't really know what the quest is about?
Also... a bit about NPC allies and pets, companions, etc. Mechanically, they exist as tags. So, if you were going to do incorporeal scouting with Silver Tongue, you could. But that would be your action. If you are in a battle and you have an ally with some good tags, you want to have them do a thing, you can use their tags. Then that's your turn.
It's highly counter-intuitive for those who are used to a PF style game, and the best thing I can say on the subject is to think of it like a movie, where each main character gets about as much camera time as the next. So your moment is leading a charge of hundreds, in a big, epic battle scene, while the next character's spotlight is them alone, trying to deactivate the doomsday device, and the next character is dueling their mortal enemy. Your action may involve hundreds of individuals, but the narrative impact is just about you.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Some of the answers were in the spoilers. I'll try and make it all clearer in the tags themselves.
Next version coming soon :-)
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Several of the answers to your questions were in the spoilers but I'll try and make them clear in the tags
Trail in the Woods (Trail) is an adult Tabaxi who until recently lived with his very primitive people in the Amedio Jungle. While, like all of his people, he is a hunter of no mean skill he has also recently become the Shaman of his tribe.
When he came of age he, as is the custom, went on a spirit quest. During that quest, he met his Spirit Guide, a wise but mischievous monkey named Silver Tongue (Silver). When Silver decided to stay with him more or less permanently, it was clear that he was destined to become a Shaman.
A few weeks ago, Silver Tongue told Trail in the Woods that his destiny lay away from his tribe. There was a great danger threatening the world and it has become his responsibility to help to stop it. He needed to go to the Huts of the Hairless Apes, his quest would start there.
He has only very recently arrived in Sasserine. Will very definitely be a fish out of water for at least a while. I'm assuming he speaks Tabaxi and enough Common to get by.
Whenever I say spirits below, I mean the Animist view of spirits. Animals, plants, people, rocks, rivers, etc all have a spirit. Does NOT include ghosts, abstract concepts, or anything beyond stone age technology.
While this is, in world, partly an independent being with a will and personality of its own mechanically it is just a part of Trail, its abilities and personality incorporated into Trail.
Note that Silver Tongue can NOT take independent form, except maybe under some extreme circumstances at the GMs whim. No incorporeal scout shenanigans or anything like that.
Theme - Stealthy Tabaxi
Positives - moves like a cat, cat claws
Negative - easily startled
Quest - reconcile feline animal nature and sapient self
Theme - Animist Shaman
Positives - communicate with spirits, get favours from spirits
Negative - Must remain in harmony with the spirits
Quest - Become a Master Shaman
Theme - Protector of the Natural World
Positives - Warrior, Spirits protect me
Negative - I hate technology and its mutual
Quest - Defend the natural world
Theme - Silver Tongue - Monkey Spirit Guide is now part of me
Positives - Very observant. Spirits respect and want to help me
Negative - mischievous
Quest - What is the danger that the Spirits want me to stop?
Several of the answers to your questions were in the spoilers but I'll try and make them clear in the tags
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Theme - Stealthy Tabaxi
Positives - moves like a cat, cat claws
Negative - easily startled
Quest - reconcile feline animal nature and sapient selfTheme - Animist Shaman
Positives - communicate with spirits, get favours from spirits
Negative - Must...
I think I was being a little thick about your quest before, but I like the new one and the tags looks good!
@Annelise: Heh. Hives still present, but have taken “anti-hysteria” medicine. So itchy, wet, swollen rash slowly abating. Maybe.
So weirdly I find that I agree and disagree with some of these points at the same time.
I think it *IS* useful to think in terms of class/race/archetype for those of us who might want to emulate certain…forms - if only to approach tags in a way that is both narratively and mechanically satisfying. But on the other hand, I agree that it might be useful to also dispense with such scaffolding to approach from a wider angle. I can see doing it both ways, but I would probably approach from the former and try to refine with the latter.
@Anirtak: I do want to circle back to a point you made earlier: regarding populating inn: I’m not sure that alerting the players to the fact that none of the inn NPCs are “important to the plot” is a good thing - there should always be a sense that, and this is because the DM is the arbiter of the universe, any particular person/presence might be a friend/foe/in disguise/spirit/long lost relative etc.
And the fact that the players make random events/items/persons important has *always* been a feature of traditional games when run well. Countless games have happily veered well off the rails because the DM allowed the players to have, and follow whims. LitM merely makes what was a feature a central part of that process. At least as far as I am understanding it.
I do have a concept percolating, but I also have to say I found the Player’s Guide a little anemic - I didn’t find the available districts very broad or interesting. The only one that stood out was, of course, the “shadowy ne-erdowell alleywise” one and although my concept has some “edge” to it, I might, like our erstwhile Tabaxi, be notfromSasserine. Which might be a pity.
Oh, and the other thing I thought about was that I agree with Archpal Zuzu (Pazuzu…) that the playbook concept of PbtA can be just as restrictive as Class/Race etc; and so by the same token I’m a little leery of themes (and tags) trapping my narrative - which might feel counter-intuitive, but think of it this way - in traditional games, your personality is almost completely free from (though likely informed by) your mechanics, and thus able to twist this way and that as you play and develop. Here, your personality, your theme, your raison d’etre is right up there written in lights, and you have to run with them (or actively countermand them). Happily, they (tags, themes) are all changeable and evolving, but it is useful to note that function.
@Annelise: Heh. Hives still present, but have taken “anti-hysteria” medicine. So itchy, wet, swollen rash slowly abating. Maybe.
So weirdly I find that I agree and disagree with some of these points at the same time.
I think it *IS* useful to think in terms of class/race/archetype for those of us who might want to emulate certain…forms - if only to approach tags in a way that is both narratively and mechanically satisfying. But on the other hand, I agree that it might be useful to also dispense with such scaffolding to approach from a wider angle. I can see doing it both ways, but I would probably approach from the former and try to refine with the latter.
@Anirtak: I do want to circle back to a point you made earlier: regarding populating inn: I’m not sure that alerting the players to the fact that none of the inn NPCs are “important to the plot” is a good thing - there should always be a sense that, and this is because the DM is the arbiter of the universe, any particular person/presence might be a friend/foe/in disguise/spirit/long lost relative etc.
And the fact that the players make random events/items/persons important has *always* been a feature of traditional games when run well. Countless games have happily veered well off the rails because the DM allowed the players to have, and follow whims. LitM merely makes what was a feature a central part of that process. At least as far as I am understanding it.
I do have a concept percolating, but I also have to say I found the Player’s Guide a little anemic - I didn’t find the available districts very broad or interesting. The only one that stood out was, of course, the “shadowy ne-erdowell alleywise” one and although my concept has some “edge” to it, I might, like our erstwhile Tabaxi, be notfromSasserine. Which might be a pity.
Well... I'm glad the rash is clearing up :)
As far as using the classic character structure to inspire a LitM character, I think it's a helpful tool. As long as it is taken as AN approach, and not THE approach, I think it's a positive.
Your point about classes being more liberating narratively is true (and the same point has been made about PbtA playbooks) but I would suggest that that liberation comes from the personality having zero mechanical importance. It's also entirely possible to write 4 themes that say nothing whatsoever about your character's personality, freeing you to let it develop in play.
Re: the population of the inn, you're 100% right that countless games have been sidetracked by the player's whims. It's a common thing. LitM simply involves the player in the improvisation. It says "If you want to make this character (or object, etc) important, you can, but you make them important." It trusts the players enough for the Narrator to say "I don't know the title of every book in this library. If you want to know, let's invent them together." This is obviously a pretty drastic shift from the classic paradigm, where the Dungeon Master is solely responsible for every single imaginable detail of the multiverse. It's not for everyone.
And, nothing says that the Narrator can't take the previously nameless background character that the player gave a name and a bit of description or background to and say "Turns out, that is the friend/foe/long long relative, etc."
I'm glad that you're open to talking about it. I hope you'll give it a whirl (and that you'll become a convert) but at minimum, it's a worthy discussion.
Also, using the word "percolating" makes me nostalgic for the coffee makers of my long lost youth. Anything you want to share about your concept is welcome.
I've got a concept. I think. Human wizard apprentice who's master went missing. I need to flesh some things out, especially spellbook; which I think is a theme. I need to put some more thoughts into themes but something along the lines of apprentice, magic, spellbook and idk yet.
I've got the idea of someone who can cast basic elemental and "force" spells. His master went missing but he has master's spellbook but can only use some of the basics. He's lazy; he rather use magic than muscles. He wants to get more powerful magically but is uncertain of himself since he as been taught very little.
That's the start. I thought I had a better idea of some themes but my old brain has lost them. I'll sleep on it.
I've got a concept. I think. Human wizard apprentice who's master went missing. I need to flesh some things out, especially spellbook; which I think is a theme. I need to put some more thoughts into themes but something along the lines of apprentice, magic, spellbook and idk yet.
I've got the idea of someone who can cast basic elemental and "force" spells. His master went missing but he has master's spellbook but can only use some of the basics. He's lazy; he rather use magic than muscles. He wants to get more powerful magically but is uncertain of himself since he as been taught very little.
That's the start. I thought I had a better idea of some themes but my old brain has lost them. I'll sleep on it.
This sounds like a good start! Something like Apprentice Wizard, Elemental Magic, Master's Spellbook.
You have at least a couple of weaknesses in there (Incomplete Training, Lazy) and at least one quest (Get Trained Proper, and maybe What Happened to Master?)
Since you're (potentially) invested three themes deep in magic, I would recommend making a few tags specific spells (not necessarily PF spells) that he knows well enough that he can cast without making it up as he goes.
I'd also suggest using the fourth theme to give the character depth. Background, family, race, etc.
LitM assumes a sandbox with each character pursuing their own agenda. Adventure Paths, less so, so I'm going to have to figure something out. I may just flag certain moments and allow everyone to rewrite a quest to follow the AP.
Oh yes, I love indie games but I found out from trying to run them that I'm not good with sandboxes - some GMs love it but I'm not creative enough, I need the structure of an AP or similar module.
Do you know when the full rulebook is due out? If this game works I can definitely see myself offering to run a Rise of the Runelords or CotCT campaign with the LitM system once I've got the hang of the rules.
I gotta admit, it's trickier to come up with a concept than I expected as I'm not used to this paradigm (yet). I'm used to using things like class, skill sets and prestige class as archetypes to model my character's backstory and personality around, even other PBTA games tend to do this with their playbooks giving you specific skillsets and tools unique to the one you pick and encouraging players to not "double up" on the same playbook for a more balanced group.
I agree the absence of a playbook is a big move away from tge usual PbtA games! I have to admit I "cheated" in that Annelise is my chracter from a CotCT game that folded. I'd got to play her enough tat I knew who she was so finding themes and tags wasn't too hard. In some ways this is better - I wanted her to be a hardcase but in PF1 that meant spending a feat so she could use Str on intimidate checks. Here, I got the same thing by giving her the Enfocer theme with a death-glare type tag. Much more satisfying, IMO
LitM assumes a sandbox with each character pursuing their own agenda. Adventure Paths, less so, so I'm going to have to figure something out. I may just flag certain moments and allow everyone to rewrite a quest to follow the AP.Oh yes, I love indie games but I found out from trying to run them that I'm not good with sandboxes - some GMs love it but I'm not creative enough, I need the structure of an AP or similar module.
Do you know when the full rulebook is due out? If this game works I can definitely see myself offering to run a Rise of the Runelords or CotCT campaign with the LitM system once I've got the hang of the rules.
I gotta admit, it's trickier to come up with a concept than I expected as I'm not used to this paradigm (yet). I'm used to using things like class, skill sets and prestige class as archetypes to model my character's backstory and personality around, even other PBTA games tend to do this with their playbooks giving you specific skillsets and tools unique to the one you pick and encouraging players to not "double up" on the same playbook for a more balanced group.I agree the absence of a playbook is a big move away from tge usual PbtA games! I have to admit I "cheated" in that Annelise is my chracter from a CotCT game that folded. I'd got to play her enough tat I knew who she was so finding themes and tags wasn't too hard. In some ways this is better - I wanted her to be a hardcase but in PF1 that meant spending a feat so she could use Str on intimidate checks. Here, I got the same thing by giving her the Enfocer theme with a death-glare type tag. Much more satisfying, IMO
I don't know when the full rulebook is coming out. Website unhelpfully says 2025. They've been dropping previews for the kickstarter backers, and I floated this interest check when I felt there was enough for me to work with (using City of Mists to fill in the blanks).
I would love to play either of those APs with this system, so <fingers Xed>. Hoping to have characters ready to go over the weekend, with the understanding that there will be a fair amount of tweaking in the early days.
Yeah, the website isn't vey informative - I was wondering if you as a Kickstart backer had been given any more info but it seems not!
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Ah, what a couple crazy busy/stressful days!
It’s Saturday evening here in Florida and I still haven't gotten back here to get the rules to click. But Sunday I should be rested and refreshed! (My homegame on Sunday nights usually means I have to spend all Sunday preparing to DM, but we're doing something different tomorrow in my homegame and I need not prep!)
So what I promised for Thursday last should be tomorrow!
I like it a lot. Especially "I hate technology and it's mutual." Probably because I know the feeling!Ok, here is my second major attempt to define Trail.
Leaning into the Shamanism a fair bit, and spent some more attention on the Quests and Weaknesses now that I realize how central to the play and growth of the character they will end up being.
Feedback definitely solicited.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Quick question: what counts as "technolgy" in this setting? Is there Alkenstar type clockwork golems and gunpowder?
Ah, what a couple crazy busy/stressful days!
It’s Saturday evening here in Florida and I still haven't gotten back here to get the rules to click. But Sunday I should be rested and refreshed! (My homegame on Sunday nights usually means I have to spend all Sunday preparing to DM, but we're doing something different tomorrow in my homegame and I need not prep!)
So what I promised for Thursday last should be tomorrow!
Awesome! Looking forward to it, and feel free to ask questions.
If you look at Annelise and Trail for a template, you'll be on the right track.
Quick question: what counts as "technolgy" in this setting? Is there Alkenstar type clockwork golems and gunpowder?
To the best of my knowledge*, any technology of that kind in Greyhawk is an unique aberration, so there would be no Alkenstar parallel.
I'm pretty sure Paul mentioned in one of his posts that his people are stone age, so by technology, I'm guessing he means even simple machines - like crossbows, or metal, etc.
* my very thin knowledge.
I must admit when I read it I was more imagining simple mechanisms like doors, hinges, locks, windmills and…windows, quills, parchment, furnaces, metal furnishings (pots/pans) etc. The sort of thing that might take some getting used to if your home had weaving, lashing and whittling in vine and wood as base “technology”. ;)
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I'm pretty sure Paul mentioned in one of his posts that his people are stone age, so by technology, I'm guessing he means even simple machines - like crossbows, or metal, etc.
Yup. I expect the weakness to come up a fair bit, at least at the beginning :-). The first time he's shot at with a bow he won't know how to duck :-). He'll not have a clue what to do with money. Even a reach weapon (in PF1 terms) or armour will be beyond him.
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I'm pretty sure Paul mentioned in one of his posts that his people are stone age, so by technology, I'm guessing he means even simple machines - like crossbows, or metal, etc.Yup. I expect the weakness to come up a fair bit, at least at the beginning :-). The first time he's shot at with a bow he won't know how to duck :-). He'll not have a clue what to do with money. Even a reach weapon (in PF1 terms) or armour will be beyond him.
Muahahaha! Tremble before the power of polearms!
This is good information. Thanks!
I was going to mention bows…
But surely he’ll have been in town for a little while and have *some* idea of how at least a couple things work…doesn’t mean he’s comfortable with it…
[EDIT] Oh, he’s really recently arrived/fish out of water stuff. Fair enough.[/EDIT]
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Quick question: what counts as "technolgy" in this setting? Is there Alkenstar type clockwork golems and gunpowder?
Funnily enough, there IS a very minor god of magical technology and he has a pair of six-shooters! I don't know if his faithful have reproduced them, though.
Quick question: what counts as "technolgy" in this setting? Is there Alkenstar type clockwork golems and gunpowder?Funnily enough, there IS a very minor god of magical technology and he has a pair of six-shooters! I don't know if his faithful have reproduced them, though.
I love this community.
So, there's a god with firearms, but for mortals, I think it's basically medieval.
Murlynd, (if that is who Archpal linked) is not only minor but also mostly unknown. I think I remember him appearing in Dungeon Module EX 2 Beyond the Magic Mirror and possibly some other supplements later, but he was pretty rare…
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Something I was wondering: I've read through the Savage Tide Player's Guide a few times, and I've got a good feel for Sasserine itself, but I'm kinda wondering what more overarching themes Savage Tide's narrative explores. Like, there's clear breadcrumbs about the Church of the Whirling Fury and its opposition to demons, the friction between the churches of Wee Jas and Kord and their respective city districts, and the suspicious presence of the Scarlet Brotherhood, but I worry about leaning too hard on one specific theme and then the game's general story moving on from it to kind of leave it hanging...
It looks like between Annelise and Trail the divine aspects are pretty thoroughly covered...
That's a reasonable question, but hard to answer without giving too much away.
I wouldn't worry too much about Wee Jas and Kord, or the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Really, the AP covers a LOT. You have urban adventures, nautical adventures, a big chunk of wilderness. There's some dungeon crawly type stuff. Then it goes extraplanar, mainly in the Abyss.
And the system allows ample opportunity for your characters to evolve.
Yep, one idea I had so far is a nautical type, a melee bruiser of some kind. Wondering if Land Legs might be a Negative and Sea Legs a Positive - good at fighting on the roiling ocean, a little less so on terra firma.
Or a more mystical warrior/black blade-esque type.
@Anirtak - if you get enough folks, don’t wait for me - I’ll follow along and watch the gameplay to get a feel for the system. Either that or I’ll actually develop something in time…
Yep, one idea I had so far is a nautical type, a melee bruiser of some kind. Wondering if Land Legs might be a Negative and Sea Legs a Positive - good at fighting on the roiling ocean, a little less so on terra firma.
Or a more mystical warrior/black blade-esque type.
@Anirtak - if you get enough folks, don’t wait for me - I’ll follow along and watch the gameplay to get a feel for the system. Either that or I’ll actually develop something in time…
I wouldn't do a weakness like that, unless you're after tagging it a LOT. The at sea stuff is only one piece of the pie. Having a tag or two to give you an edge on deck will be helpful.
Black blade types can be loads of fun, too.
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Yeah, that Wee-Jas-worshipping concept I mentioned earlier was envisioned as a black blade type. Necromancer with a sword and principles (like don't raise the dead without their consent and the permission of the Ruby Sorceress). But like I said, that'd probably be a better fit for Age of Worms, where there's more undead to put to rest.
So back to brainstorming I go!
In the case of Land Legs, I was thinking it would be something to overcome, akin to a Quest “Eventually don’t vomit on land”. But, yes, while active, it would likely be tagged a lot, given the land-based stuff would be fairly prevalent a lot of the time, while I imagine the deck-based stuff might be one particular section.
I’m going to reread the thread, check out how Annelise and Trails went about their creation…might help to organise an archetype.
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I dusted off the ol' STAP Players' Guide to look through it after watching the tutorial and reading over Sarah's PC, Annelise -- wow I haven't thumbed through that little paperback in years and forgot how detailed Sasserine is in there! (It blows away the Players' Guides Paizo has done since then!)
Anyway, here goes -- let's see how far I can get before I just hit the "Submit Post" button and let our 'Master of Ceremonies' correct me. I'm going to try to include a little connection to Annelise, very little, and completely open-ended. But it's still the character concept (based on the HELLBRED that I wanted to run almost 20 years ago when STAP (and Hellbred) was first published.)
In his previous life, he knows he was some kind of Wizard, some kind of ruthless archmage intent on inflicting the most pain and evil he could for his ambition. Nothing specific: A pureblood Suel of The Scarlet Brotherhood? A sorcerous warlord intent on some kind of genocide-like pogram for the Suel? Something like that. Yet more disturbing. Ineffable.
He also doesn't remember his repentence. No memory of his conscience finally awakening nor his first feelings of moral conviction. But the memory of terror and helplessness upon seeing his Soul from an out-of-body consciousness Fall to Hell is strong. Overwhelming.
He awakened. A new body. Reincarnated. Adult. Naked and disoriented and truly afraid for his Soul. A fading thought: Lathander, and Sarenrae, Iomedae and Mayaheine, Lirr and Lydia, Mishakal and Sotillion -- none would allow his Ascension. Here in this new life he would have to prove his worth. And more. Only a truly epic effort for Righteousness can perhaps save his Soul. Only an against-all-odds victory over a great Evil can protect him from returning to Hell.
But at least he has a chance. Small as it is.
Thrown into jail.
He was naked -- a grown man with a creepy visage and a vile tattoo on his forehead -- in front of an orphanage of children and nuns. Trying to stutter an apology to the Piercing Green Eyes of the half-Elven girl shielding his nakedness from the kids, her blonde hair frayed in anger and her blades raised, Svetozar Lanezra was still rubbing the fog from his eyes as the city watch slammed the bars of the gaol in his face.
THEME: Loremaster
POWER TAGS: Scholar of Hell & The Abyss ; Scholar of history and philosophy
WEAKNESS TAG:
QUEST: Use my Knowledge and Lore to better fight Evil OR Learn as much Lore and gain as much knowledge on everything in order to better understand the cosmology, good and evil
THEME: Devilish Deceiver/Beguiler
POWER TAGS: Natural Bluffer ; Natural Diplomat
WEAKNESS TAG: Looks Devilish
QUEST: Use my intrinsic ability to deceive and charm to trick evildoers, so better to defeat them
THEME: Reincarnated Villain
POWER TAGS:
WEAKNESS TAG:
QUEST:
THEME: Holy Warrior-Hopeful
POWER TAGS: Fierce against Fiends
WEAKNESS TAG: Bookworm
QUEST: Find an epic Evil to fight against in order to save my Hellbound Soul!
I dusted off the ol' STAP Players' Guide to look through it after watching the tutorial and reading over Sarah's PC, Annelise -- wow I haven't thumbed through that little paperback in years and forgot how detailed Sasserine is in there! (It blows away the Players' Guides Paizo has done since then!)
Anyway, here goes -- let's see how far I can get before I just hit the "Submit Post" button and let our 'Master of Ceremonies' correct me. I'm going to try to include a little connection to Annelise, very little, and completely open-ended. But it's still the character concept (based on the HELLBRED that I wanted to run almost 20 years ago when STAP (and Hellbred) was first published.)
** spoiler omitted **...
Loremaster needs a weakness and for you to choose a quest... I like the idea of him seeking more knowledge, personally. It gives him a bit of variety.
Devilish Deceiver looks solid - do we need beguiler?
Holy Warrior Hopeful looks good, still shy one power tag - perhaps a favored weapon or a technique he's mastered?
Obviously reincarnated villain needs some work. What about his migratory birthmark as the weakness there? That felt like it had some legs. For power tags, what abilities does this grant him?
Overall, though, looking good. Twenty years, though?
Here is what I have come up with so far.
Milton was born to a prosperous merchant family but was the last of 8 children. His older siblings would own and run the business. In his view his father got rid of him by apprenticing him to the Wizard X. He was sharp of mind but not so much of body. He was going to prove his family wrong to get rid of him.
X gave Milton all the grunt work of being a wizard; cleaning, cooking, organizing, etc. Milton did have access to the library where he studied all sorts of things. One day his master just didn’t come home. And for some reason he left his spellbook.
THEME: Apprentice Wizard
POWER TAGS:
Scut Work
Knowledge is Power
WEAKNESS TAG: Lazy
QUEST: What Happened to Master?
THEME: Elemental Magic
POWER TAGS:
Elements Are My Friends
Just One
WEAKNESS TAG That’s All I Know
QUEST: I Must Learn How This Works
THEME: Master's Spellbook
POWER TAGS:
It’s All in There
Force Work
WEAKNESS TAG: It’s the Master’s Spellbook After all! (Incomplete Training)
QUEST: Make His Own Spellbook
THEME: Merchant District Castoff
POWER TAGS:
Stubborn
Sharp Mind
WEAKNESS TAG: Weak Body
QUEST: Prove Myself
I know the magic is going to need some work. I have some thoughts but need a little more time on ironing them out.
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I was going to mention bows…
But surely he’ll have been in town for a little while and have *some* idea of how at least a couple things work…doesn’t mean he’s comfortable with it…
[EDIT] Oh, he’s really recently arrived/fish out of water stuff. Fair enough.[/EDIT]
I find fish out of water very amusing, at least for awhile. As long as I survive it :-) :-).
I'm also aware that it can get silly and repetitious, especially for other players. I'll try to keep it under control but, if I fail, feel free to give me a gentle, polite nudge
I was going to mention bows…
But surely he’ll have been in town for a little while and have *some* idea of how at least a couple things work…doesn’t mean he’s comfortable with it…
[EDIT] Oh, he’s really recently arrived/fish out of water stuff. Fair enough.[/EDIT]
I find fish out of water very amusing, at least for awhile. As long as I survive it :-) :-).
I'm also aware that it can get silly and repetitious, especially for other players. I'll try to keep it under control but, if I fail, feel free to give me a gentle, polite nudge
No problems on this end. I’ve played a bunch of high-INT/low WIS or low INT/high WIS characters that while not strangers definitely operate as if they were in a strange land. It can be a fine line between comedy and overworking the schtick, but done right it can inject both levity and pathos, humor and satire.
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Hmmm...Annelise, your background indicates you've been on the wrong side of the law, but do you plan on being "roguish?" Yes, this system doesn't rely on "traditional party roles" like "Fighter" or "Mage" or "Thief," but depending on which direction you're taking your narrative, it seems to me like what this group needs from a narrative perspective is a burglar (or if you'd prefer, you can say "expert treasure hunter")!
Here is what I have come up with so far.
Milton was born to a prosperous merchant family but was the last of 8 children. His older siblings would own and run the business. In his view his father got rid of him by apprenticing him to the Wizard X. He was sharp of mind but not so much of body. He was going to prove his family wrong to get rid of him.
X gave Milton all the grunt work of being a wizard; cleaning, cooking, organizing, etc. Milton did have access to the library where he studied all sorts of things. One day his master just didn’t come home. And for some reason he left his spellbook.
THEME: Apprentice Wizard
POWER TAGS:
Scut Work
Knowledge is Power
WEAKNESS TAG: Lazy
QUEST: What Happened to Master?THEME: Elemental Magic
POWER TAGS:
Elements Are My Friends
Just One
WEAKNESS TAG That’s All I Know
QUEST: I Must Learn How This WorksTHEME: Master's Spellbook
POWER TAGS:
It’s All in There
Force Work
WEAKNESS TAG: It’s the Master’s Spellbook After all! (Incomplete Training)
QUEST: Make His Own SpellbookTHEME: Merchant District Castoff
POWER TAGS:
Stubborn
Sharp Mind
WEAKNESS TAG: Weak Body
QUEST: Prove MyselfI know the magic is going to need some work. I have some thoughts but need a little more time on ironing them out.
Looks good. Only thing I would question is "Just One," which I have no idea what it refers to. And I would suggest maybe one or two spells that you have a firm grasp on. Or, that can come later.