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Russ Taylor wrote this feat, and states it works for Eidolon.
Joshua J Frost is a PF event manager and PFS player, that changed his opinion and now thinks otherwise.
James Jaccobs states the eidolon is considered an animal companion, but again, as he typically speaks for PFS, this might be from a pathfinder society perspective.
Has anyone found a definitive post anywhere that provides any additional light on this?
The feat talks about AC and familiar. There is nothing in the RAW suggesting it works with Eidolon. And considering the power of eidolons it would also be wacky if it did (or does if some Dev comes and tell us that it works).
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The feat talks about AC and familiar. There is nothing in the RAW suggesting it works with Eidolon. And considering the power of eidolons it would also be wacky if it did (or does if some Dev comes and tell us that it works).
keep in mind, the feat was created in 2009, and Summoners did not exist until late 2010
if the summoner had existed when I wrote the feat, it would have been included in the list
The feat talks about AC and familiar. There is nothing in the RAW suggesting it works with Eidolon. And considering the power of eidolons it would also be wacky if it did (or does if some Dev comes and tell us that it works).keep in mind, the feat was created in 2009, and Summoners did not exist until late 2010
if the summoner had existed when I wrote the feat, it would have been included in the list
On the other hand, the Boon Companion feat was written again in Animal Archive in 2013, and no reference to eidolons was added then.
I think you have some misunderstandings. James Jacob is not PFS, so while his rulings have weight they dont set in in stone. So for PFS Frost's ruling stands. For everyone else go with James Jacob. In the end it is a GM call.
James Jacobs' rulings don't have much weight in any case, he's not one of the rules guys (as he himself has stated).
If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
still limited on evo points though iirc.
To-hit was never the limiting factor for the synthesist. Evolutions are, and remain tied to summoner level.If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
But boon companion Will help with evo pool if it works for summoners, yes?
It does not work for PFS or the official rules until whoever is in charge of PFS or the official rules changes the wording in the feat. If it at least had some obscure wording that would be different, but it is very specific as to what it calls out. Sometimes free lancers write a feat with certain intentions but Paizo will change how it works once it hits the book. That is likely what happened with Russ.
But boon companion Will help with evo pool if it works for summoners, yes?To-hit was never the limiting factor for the synthesist. Evolutions are, and remain tied to summoner level.If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
"If" it worked then everything on the eidolon chart would be boosted.
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If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
Not even related. The Synthesist "Fused Eidolon" ability completely replaces the Eidolon ability.
It isn't a companion in any respect, until the summoner gains the "Split forms" at 16th level. Before that, it really is just a class ability.
My inclination is to say no, it does not work, having said that, if the following were true:
James Jaccobs states the eidolon is considered an animal companion, but again, as he typically speaks for PFS, this might be from a pathfinder society perspective.
Then it opens up a whole other can of worms/options.
The human alt trait eye for talent would grant it +2 to an ability. Add in the feat below and the +2 str evo for +6 str at lvl 1.Spirits gift would allow it some crazy buffs like +2 str, fire immunity, fast healing 1 , a fly speed, +4 stealth (stacks with skilled +8 stealth) or DR 5.
The hunter class could also grant it some nifty bonuses as a 1 lvl dip.
An aasimar summoner x/life oracle 4 with boon companion could get his eidolon at +2 level thanks to his FCB.
A few ideas anyways :s
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Boon companion specifically increases your character's effective druid level. The Eidolon, even if it counts as an animimal companion, doesn't benefit from increased druid level.
Furthermore, Boon companion doesn't increase the druid level beyond the PC's character level.
Another point regarding the Fighter/synthesist, the fused eidolon ability specifically uses the Eidolon's BAB, it doesn't add them. Even if you can increase the effective level of the summoner to the character's level, the BAB will never be as good as a fighter would be of equal level.
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If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
BAB in this case is +1. If boon companion "somehow" added +4 to the effective summoner level, BAB becomes +4. This is because the fused Eidolon ability specifically uses the BAB of the eidolon, not the better of the two, nor the BAB combined.
I often wonder if the brokenness of the synthesist is related more to players not reading the ability and less about it's rules.
A lot of summoner issues are due to bad readings of the rules, but the class is also easy to optimize. Back to the synthesis, it is actually not as good as the base summoner. The base summoner is using damage from the eidolon plus spells. The synthesis has to make a choice.
If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
BAB in this case is +1. If boon companion "somehow" added +4 to the effective summoner level, BAB becomes +4. This is because the fused Eidolon ability specifically uses the BAB of the eidolon, not the better of the two, nor the BAB combined.
I often wonder if the brokenness of the synthesist is related more to players not reading the ability and less about it's rules.
Among the many synthesist FAQs this have been adressed. So no need to wonder on that special account.
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Among the many synthesist FAQs this have been adressed. So no need to wonder on that special account.If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
BAB in this case is +1. If boon companion "somehow" added +4 to the effective summoner level, BAB becomes +4. This is because the fused Eidolon ability specifically uses the BAB of the eidolon, not the better of the two, nor the BAB combined.
I often wonder if the brokenness of the synthesist is related more to players not reading the ability and less about it's rules.
Which brings me back to my original request:
Can responders please provide links to any factual information that can be found?Cap Darling, can you please provide a link?
Upon looking in the FAQ, I don't see anything that addresses this topic.
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Among the many synthesist FAQs this have been adressed. So no need to wonder on that special account.If it did work, think of the Synthesist possibilities. A Fighter4/Synthesist1 with BAB +8...
-Matt
BAB in this case is +1. If boon companion "somehow" added +4 to the effective summoner level, BAB becomes +4. This is because the fused Eidolon ability specifically uses the BAB of the eidolon, not the better of the two, nor the BAB combined.
I often wonder if the brokenness of the synthesist is related more to players not reading the ability and less about it's rules.
Which brings me back to my original request:
Can responders please provide links to any factual information that can be found?Cap Darling, can you please provide a link?
Upon looking in the FAQ, I don't see anything that addresses this topic.
Just read the feat. It dosent talk about eidolons. That is the rules rigth there.
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Here: factual
Boon CompanionYour bond with your animal companion or familiar is unusually close.
Prerequisites: Animal companion or familiar class feature.
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
Eidolon
A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was dismissed or banished. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished. The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
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all useless opinions at this point. let me restate my request:
as stated in the OP, the feat designer says he would have included Eidolons in the list, if Summoners existed when he created the feat.
James Jaccobs stated Eidolons are treated as animal companions for PFS.
Joshua J Frost stated the feat works for Eidolons, then, changed his mind 2 years later.
I am asking if anyone has found any posts by any actual Paizo employees that provide additional information or a more current posting since the Animal Archive came out last year.
k. thx. bai.
all useless opinions at this point. let me restate my request:
as stated in the OP, the feat designer says he would have included Eidolons in the list, if Summoners existed when he created the feat.
James Jaccobs stated Eidolons are treated as animal companions for PFS.
Joshua J Frost stated the feat works for Eidolons, then, changed his mind 2 years later.I am asking if anyone has found any posts by any actual Paizo employees that provide additional information or a more current posting since the Animal Archive came out last year.
k. thx. bai.
Do you have links to these quotes? I can not find the J.Jacobs quotes.
Joshua's last posting in 2010 when he was still with Paizo said "no" it does not work. He also does not work for Paizo anymore. So it seems that unofficially and officially(by the book) the answer is still no.
And working for Paizo does not make someone better at knowing the rules than a board member, nor does it matter if it scope is outside of their department, but there are your answers.
edit: According to this search Russ Taylor also did not mention anything about it working on eidolons-> boon companion search
Not that it matters. He was never a Paizo employee.
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all useless opinions at this point.
We've been posting the "facts." I think your looking for substantiated opinion, but not fact.
FACT is that the feat doesn't do what you are looking to do with it.
Your opinion seems to be that it should do something other than what it says it does. You are looking for quotes from paizo employees to substantiate your option that it should do something other than what it says it does.
This is not a rules question, your looking for advice on how to circumvent rules with opinion. You really should just houserule it, or homebrew a new feat that does what you want/need it to do.
all useless opinions at this point.We've been posting the "facts." I think your looking for substantiated opinion, but not fact.
FACT is that the feat doesn't do what you are looking to do with it.
Your opinion seems to be that it should do something other than what it says it does. You are looking for quotes from paizo employees to substantiate your option that it should do something other than what it says it does.
This is not a rules question, your looking for advice on how to circumvent rules with opinion.
+1. The rules are clear, and the opinion of some dev official can not overturn what is in the book. They can
1. Release an FAQ/blog used as FAQ
2. Release Errata
3. Make a statement about how the print in the book is wrong because ___, and urge us to use that until the print is fixed so people know intent.<-----This should come from the rules team.
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all useless opinions at this point. let me restate my request:
as stated in the OP, the feat designer says he would have included Eidolons in the list, if Summoners existed when he created the feat.
James Jaccobs stated Eidolons are treated as animal companions for PFS.
Joshua J Frost stated the feat works for Eidolons, then, changed his mind 2 years later.I am asking if anyone has found any posts by any actual Paizo employees that provide additional information or a more current posting since the Animal Archive came out last year.
k. thx. bai.
What part of the boon companion feat or the eidolon text provided by Murock is "opinion"? It did come directly from the book.
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all useless opinions at this point.
If you're just gong to deny all facts and dissenting opinions, you should stop posting, because THAT is what is useless here.
as stated in the OP, the feat designer says he would have included Eidolons in the list, if Summoners existed when he created the feat.
Irrelevant. It does not change how the Feat actually works, and does not even guarantee that that is the intent of the final product, since things are often changed between a the designer writing them and the final product.
A good example is the Titan Mauler, which was originally intended to allow the Mauler to wield progressively larger weapons.
The intent of the final product however is the opposite.
James Jaccobs stated Eidolons are treated as animal companions for PFS.
Irrelevant three-fold.
Dev opinions on the boards are, by their own statements, not to be taken as rules changes, merely their opinion on how they would run things in their own games.
James Jacobs is not even a developer, he is the Creative Director. He's Word of God on setting and story details. Not rules.
James Jacobs has no authority on PFS matters.
Joshua J Frost stated the feat works for Eidolons, then, changed his mind 2 years later.
And if that was relevant in the first place (it isn't), as a rule you would go with the most recent ruling. Which would be that it doesn't work.
I am asking if anyone has found any posts by any actual Paizo employees that provide additional information or a more current posting since the Animal Archive came out last year.
Even if they did, none of them would matter, so the point is moot.
k. thx. bai.
Indeed.
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I said stuff.Do you have links to these quotes? I can not find the J.Jacobs quotes.
Here's the link for Russ's post
Also, in that link is Joshua linking to his earlier post saying that Boon Companion will work, while also, changing his mind.
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all useless opinions at this point.We've been posting the "facts." I think your looking for substantiated opinion, but not fact.
FACT is that the feat doesn't do what you are looking to do with it.
Your opinion seems to be that it should do something other than what it says it does. You are looking for quotes from paizo employees to substantiate your option that it should do something other than what it says it does.
This is not a rules question, your looking for advice on how to circumvent rules with opinion. You really should just houserule it, or homebrew a new feat that does what you want/need it to do.
Opinions are players voicing their interpretation of the rules.
Facts would be game designers or creators stating how things were meant to be.
All of this is predicated upon the point that there has already been a precedent of conflicting perspectives between Pathfinder Society and normal game play that state an Eidolon is considered an Animal Companion.
If an Eidolon is considered an Animal Companion, then the feat wouldn't need to specifically call out the Eidolon.
In the same way that every creature that is considered an Animal Companion is not called out in the description of the feat.
Does that provide clarification on what my request is?
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Heres something that you seem to focus on. JJ said it is like an AC for PFS. That sentence is your whole sticking point. So let me try to help you in this one more time. IF James came on here right now, and said that this feat should work for Eidolon's in PFS, IT WOULD NOT MATTER. Because he voiced an opinion does not mean the rule would change. Mike and John would think it over and it still would not change in PFS. I cant say this enough. Now for your home game let his opinion win out and do it that way. It is your game and you can do as you want.
I said stuff.Do you have links to these quotes? I can not find the J.Jacobs quotes.Here's the link for Russ's post
Also, in that link is Joshua linking to his earlier post saying that Boon Companion will work, while also, changing his mind.
He said "if" the summoner had existed he would have put it in the feat. So that also means he did not write it into the feat. Even if it had existed Paizo changes freelancer material before it hits the books so him writing is no guarantee that it would have been included.
I posted the Joshua link myself. I asked for the James Jacobs link. Since he does not like the eidolon and he often goes by what the thinks the rule should be instead of what it is, then it is hard to see him saying "make the summoner/eidolon better".
All of the above is in a calm voice.
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As much fun as it is to keep going back and forth about each point, trying show how things are interpreted in each of your worlds, my original question is still left unanswered:
Similar to the link I had from above, is there anyone that has any additional links from any of the three named people: JJF, JJ, or RT that relates to the feat?
please do not respond unless its a link to a post or a page reference that hasn't already been covered thus far.
if you don't have any links/references, its ok to not respond.
I told you before there were NO additional quotes. Once again. There are no additional quotes.
Zero/Nada/None.<---Those are definite things, not opinions.
It is not our fault you don't cant tell an opinion from a fact. Dev statements are also not always facts, and that is by their own admission<---Also fact. Do you need a link for that? Yes, I can provide the link.
Edit:My interpretation is not an opinion if it is also in the book. Facts are facts no matter who says them. You not wanting to accept it, does not make it "not a fact".
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For those of you still reading, what Dysfunction means to say is "Hey everyone, this is a public forum, please feel free to continue the discussion as desired".
Because, that's what this is. A public discussion. And nobody, except a forum moderator, has the ability to interrupt that freedom, or even request such a thing.
Right, Dysfunction?
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I wish there was a Flag for "Worthless questions that have zero bearing on the actual question you're trying to get answered".
Because you're asking a worthless question, stubbornly and doggedly asking for something that DOESN'T F!%*ING MATTER.
You asked for "definitive posts that shed light on this matter".
There are none.
There may be dev posts on the matter, but NONE of them are going to be "definitive" and NONE of them "shed additional light on the matter" because NONE of them are worthwhile as a rules source.
Read the rules in question. There you go, that's what you have, that's what you use, not posts from random devs on forums, and definitely not posts from 3 of the Paizo employees whose opinions matter THE LEAST on the subject.
He(dysfuntion) is "one of those" guys.
I am sure he will have some excuse if I post the link showing a dev stating some members of the forum know the rules better than he does.
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I told you before there were NO additional quotes. Once again. There are no additional quotes.
Zero/Nada/None.<---Those are definite things, not opinions.
It is not our fault you don't cant tell an opinion from a fact. Dev statements are also not always facts, and that is by their own admission<---Also fact. Do you need a link for that? Yes, I can provide the link.
Edit:My interpretation is not an opinion if it is also in the book. Facts are facts no matter who says them. You not wanting to accept it, does not make it "not a fact".
Here's a couple more examples of links that relate to the topic:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kukg?Boon-Companion-Druid#15
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k8ne?Boon-Companion-Eidolon#9
I'm pretty sure that 2>Nada...
If you had been paying attention you would have noticed I posted the 2nd link myself, and your question was were there any later posting beyond Russ's, and the other people you mentioned.
So as it stands my "nada" is correct. The links(plural) that I posted upthread which also include Mr.Frost do not have any further comments from anyone working for Paizo.
So once again there are no additional links.
Try again.
PS: You still never listed the link to JJ. You gave me a link to Mr.Frost that I had already posted when I asked about it before.