Did anyone simplify kingdom building?

hi everyone,

I started kingmaker as a DM, but I am not very happy with the kingdom buliding / leadership / city building

I think my players will loose interest in the "sim city like" aspects of kingdom building and the various bonuses and sub-rules
I don't want to restrict them to pre-formed ruler types and city blocks are just to modern for us (we are european)

I thought about using just Economy and unrest and build consumption around kingdom size and thought about letting them attract citizens instead of building every building themself

did anyone try something like that?

any tipps or ideas ?

We didnt simplify, we love it. (Both groups, so 10 Europeans :p)

If you dont want to, simply dont
Use kingdom in the background?

well, kingdom in the background it would not be theirkingdom,
I want them to have the kingdom, rule it, build their castle, but I want it to be quick and easy

I would hand the rules to your players and ask them if they would be interested instead of assuming they wouldn't be. You can tell them that you would like to change the rules a bit if you want.

What I did was add to it, because as they are you only have two required rolls a month and both simplify very complex concepts to the ridiculous.

Mostly what I did was add a pre-generated list of kingdom events for the party to role play out. These would be things like: Mivon wants to trade salted eels for iron, or Loggers want access to the forests. Sometimes I throw stuff like: The church of Calistria is stepping on the toes of the Church of Erastil.

Having conversations and role playing out how to manage a kingdom has been far more exciting than the dice rolling.

I would hand the rules to your players and ask them if they would be interested instead of assuming they wouldn't be. You can tell them that you would like to change the rules a bit if you want.

I did tell them about possible AP outlines before we started, it went like this:

Having conversations and role playing out how to manage a kingdom has been far more exciting than the dice rolling.

exactly, this group loves to find creative solutions, they want to find ways to clear situations with creativity and can get annoid if I tell them "you can resolve that with a akill check"

So, has anyone tried something like that?

Kingdom building done right should lead to countless hours of non-combat role-playing, whether it be the brewer's guild complaining about the lack of a hall to do business as driving their competitive edge down to the need for a graveyard when Widow Petra's late husband was dug up by rabid dogs outside of town. If you want to avoid it be a simulation:

1. Hand out a list of buildings with BP costs and any pre-requisite (like must be adjacent to a house). Never disclose the mechanics. You, the GM, will keep the mechanics.

2. Use a spreadsheet (this site has an excel sheet and others). You'll want it, it speeds up kingdom building. Encourage the players to be responsible for tracking the city layout on the grid maps and for hexploration. You can find these maps on numerous sites or just scan and print them. If you have an artist in the group, they might make you some conceptual drawings of your land or even certain buildings.

3. Only give players the BP total and if a building lessens other costs. Encourage the players to take responsibility for a city or district, responding to needs.

4. Name your Inns, personalize your shops, dedicate your monuments to fallen PCs (e.g. the Tuskgutter Inn started with Tuskgutter's head above the fireplace and has now been famed for having rooms themed in one of the party's exotic monster kills). Make sure to design encounters that notice the party's work, such as a visiting dignitary requesting the tatzlwyrm room.

5. Role-play feedback. If the economy is low, have the guilds complain. NPCs that have roles should be active in advising what the people are saying. If loyalty is low, describe it as general talk that the cities are ugly, people live here but don't feel a part of the kingdom. Never disclose numbers.

6. Use an expanded events table (on these forums) or design your own. The kingdom building phase should always have something going on. It will add a ton of time to your game, but it will also contribute to the roleplay in ways you'll have no way to predict.

7. Transform the magic-item economy into trade agreements for a unique product being produced or service. Encourage realistic building (can house rule a district must be full before another can be added).

8. In summary, hide the numbers and it ceases to be a simulation and becomes a role-play opportunity. Note: there will come a point where the building gets tedious. Speed it up by assigning folks to dice rolls and having everyone roll at once so you can run around the table quickly rather than one at a time.

I stopped using the Kingdom Building Rules around Book 3. It was eating into Adventure Time. Instead I just assumed a steady rate of growth I asked my players what they wanted to focus on (Barony chooses 1, Duchy chooses 2, Kingdom chooses 3):
- Diplomacy
- Trade
- Defense
- Kingdom Growth
- Industry
- Espionage

Then I picked a few buildings, rolled some events and each season relayed the growth of their kingdom, have them a juicy RP or combat, and then moved on to the main quest.

Another option is to remove BP entirely, and roll Economy Checks to buy buildings. Or if ANY of your players is interested in the city building, make him or her a city planner give him the rules and just do kingdom building over e-mail/chat or whatever.

I definitely encourage you to try to find a way to make it work for your group, at the very least at the beginning phases of kingdom building. It is worth the excitement and entertainment value of building your own kingdom to try to make it work. Later it seems to get mundance and becomes less important as the AP progresses.

We tried kingdom building as it is shown in the book. We did change the magic items rules out for trade routes, but otherwise, everything was the same. We planned to run like a year at a time of kingdom bulding. Except half the party who hate the math and optimization of having 3.5 graveyards per block, etc semi-revolted by falling asleep...literally.

I tried to fix the mechanically heavy side of kingdom building a little bit by putting a lot of building pressure on the PCs. By this I mean there are buildings and construction to build due to need, environmental factors, and defense. There are also a steady stream of NPCs, including council members, wanting their particular buildings built. Then there are the buildings that the players want to build. Usually the backlog means they get a little excited when they actually get something done in kingdom building they wanted, like a castle or caster's tower. So far they have been building mills, granaries, walls, barracks, and temples to keep up with obligations and defense. The rewards for building what others want is increased loyalty bonuses and extra BP awards, as well as special alliances.

Then I have a spreadsheet of all the current events that are taking place in their kingdom, broken down by month. These are NPCs, roleplay events, dire tidings, adventure hooks, etc. that keep the PCs busy in between each turn of building. I also have some events that are triggered based on the kingdom reaching a certain size, usually more major events, like offers of alliance, political ploys, etc.

The end result is that the kingdom building is interspersed throughout our sessions, so the kingdom slowly grows fairly organically, and often in response to what is happening at that moment. Luckily this seemed to work for us, because otherwise my next step would have been to adopt some sort of higher level plan like Dudemeister mentioned or even worse have to run the kingdom in the background.

For me the kingdom building elements are what makes this AP standout, without them this is pretty blah and I'd end up doing Shattered Star or Jade Regent. If your players aren't into the mechanics, then I wouldn't tell them their BP or income I'd just tell them how much they have to spend and let them pick buildings thats more shopping. Do the outside hex developement yourself. NPC gets trasurer and holds a conservative stance on the treasury.

First off - separate the kingdom building rules from the city building rules as they are two separate things.

Asthe game was starting out, My PCs were exploring the map in the first two books, visting hexes, exploring them, finding out what was going on - and mapping the area.

Once they got to book two and we were claiming hexes - that was done by subordinates they hired in, according to directions given them by the PCs. The Pcs continued to explore new hexes and secure land.

They also recruited a series of NPCs to run the country for them - the characters all took ruler-ship roles but left the day-to-day management to NPCs. The PCs give direction and ask questions. Next session they get a short written report from an NPC and then the PCS decide what to do. After that the NPCs implement in the background. (Just like the real world does things)

As for the city - we played out the first few rounds one by one so they got the feel of it. They named the pub, they made decisions about what to build. Anything they don't name - I do.

ATM, we are doing development blocks - the last one was six months, next one will be a year. I ask them how they want to expand the kingdom, and get the NPCs to do that on their behalf. I then tell them how many BP they can spend over that period, and ask them what they want to build. Next session I come back with suggestions and plans (well, technically the NPCs do) ...

It means it is still the PCs country and players feel that they are running it, but they are not bogged down in the day to day management of it. After all - we aren't playing Bankers and Bureaucrats :)

As for the city grid - I chucked it out and drew a basic map with 36 development plots on it in a shape I recognised as a city. It does the same thing but makes us all feel more comfortable with it.

I definitely encourage you to try to find a way to make it work for your group, at the very least at the beginning phases of kingdom building. It is worth the excitement and entertainment value of building your own kingdom to try to make it work. Later it seems to get mundance and becomes less important as the AP progresses.

Same, but you finding a way around it is even more fun :)

thank you all for the helpfull tips !

I am still not sure, but I think I will start with most rules and maybe downgrade from there

I agree with Redcelt. At first it is fun, but as the AP progresses it becomes a chore. Better to stick the kingdom building in the background, have the PC leaders call the shots so to speak, but have the civil servants do the day to day kind of affairs. Otherwise you will be spending most game time with 1-2 individuals being interested with the rest being bored out of their mind. The AP shines with the PCs being leaders of a nation and being able to form it through their actions IMO, not in the SimCity aspect.