Let's talk about your characters here!
In my two homegames I have six players each; in one of them there was a druid and a summoner so really there were eight(!) combatants, while in the other there were no familiars or animal companions and wow what a difference it makes. For both personal preference reasons and plot reasons I don't recommend starting with an animal companion or familiar at Lvl1. Summoners or conjurers are fine but it will be your responsibility to know what the stats of your summons are, including any feats or abilities that modify them.
Other than that, let's see those concepts!
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Thanks for the invitation, CrusaderWolf!
... For both personal preference reasons and plot reasons I don't recommend starting with an animal companion or familiar at Lvl1.
It's pretty plain from the player's guide why that would be a bad idea. I'm curious how witches are supposed to get by, but it won't be a problem for my current concepts.
I'm currently considering either a spiritualist, with phantom as a bodyguard/tank and the spiritualist himself built as a back-up archer with heavy casting, emphasizing control/debuffs when possible and buffing the phantom for melee, or an archery-focused steadfast slayer inquisitor (either Erastil or Pharasma). I'm leaning toward the spiritualist at the moment - I always wanted to play a pet class and I expect it will be a while before anything like the phantom is available in PF2. OTOH, the inquisitor gets bonus teamwork feats and I think those could be great in a long-term campaign, giving other characters the chance to take them knowing that somebody else already would have. I’ll post a couple of tentative statblocks later today - all subject to whatever character-building rules CrusaderWolf is planning for. Still working on possible backgrounds for them.
I'm also looking at the medium and occultist classes, but I'm still getting my arms around them - I haven't played any of the occult classes yet (the closest I've come is a psychic investigator), and some of the class features and mechanics for these two are a little fussy.
Whatever the class, I'd like the character to be a duskwalker. Great flavor (and racial bonuses) for this AP, cool origin feats, and the chance for any class to get a nosoi fledging as a familiar for a single feat.
BTW, I really like the campaign traits from the player's guide, but it is going to be hard to pick anything other than The Word.
I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone else is thinking of.
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Concept 1: Garret Fallows, a CG Lightfoot Halfling Spy for the Bellflower Network. He goes undercover in tyrannical and slaver societies and works to free slaves using his natural skills augmented by his magical abilities as a bard.
Edit: So looking at recruitment, this is PF, not DnD—not a problem, but will need to tweak the character details of match the concept.
We'll be using a 15pt buy for stats, and I'm not going to place any race or class restrictions as long as you have an interesting and compelling reason for why, say, a gripli is in Rostler's Coffer. Undead are prevalent throughout the campaign, of course, but outsiders, plants, and constructs are also frequent if that helps.
I do have a handful of small house rules that I use (e.g. light shields give +2AC and -2ACP, while heavy shields give +3AC and -3ACP) that I'll post in a link up above. Since this is an AP as opposed to a home game a lot of those options won't be particularly relevant, please feel free to PM me or ask in this thread if you have questions about anything!
o/
Hi all! The only unfamiliar face here is Tusk, so nice to meet you Tusk!
I'm all over the place right now with character ideas, with nothing grabbing me so strongly that I know I'm going to go with that one. I'm hoping to try one of the classes I've never played, or maybe a build I've never had the chance to make work. I was thinking a bit about spiritualist, but I couldn't work out a way to make the phantom a solid primary combatant while the caster is just supportive. I was also thinking about playing a pure blaster sorcerer. I looked at kineticist for the same concept but it seems rather inflexible.
BTW Is this going to be a high optimization group?
I'm currently involved in two campaigns that are around 12th level. In one, the optimization is high enough that the GM has been throwing double advanced templates on everything, or doubling the number of enemies. In the other, the team is sometimes struggling with encounters in the AP as written. From my experience GMing, I know both can work, but the first situation is sometimes quite hard to GM for. CrusaderWolf, do you want us to aim for lower optimization to avoid that kind of stuff? Also, the most important thing is to avoid mix-and-matching dramatically different optimization levels. IE. Having the CaGM pouncing barbarian in the same group as the TWF core rogue just leads to trouble.
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Nice to meet you both, Damon & Cellion!
Cellion, I try to build characters who are effective and have something to offer in most situations, but I don't think of myself as an optimizer by any stretch. For example, I don't think the oracle I'm playing in Shattered Star has hit anything in combat or cast a spell where the target failed the saving throw in the last three months, but he can use his wands of bless and CLW with the best of them, provides flanking bonuses for the rogue and fighter in combat, and carries the party's flamethrower, plus he has a few good knowledge skills and sketches the ancient murals the party finds in their explorations.
General questions for CrusaderWolf - any thoughts on background skills, drawbacks for an extra trait, starting GP?
Over time, he would have to upgrade the weapon to keep up. This would mean getting another member of the party (or paying a spellcaster during a trip to a town with 2nd level spellcasting available) to cast masterwork transformation to convert it into a masterwork weapon, and then paying to have the weapon enchanted (after the first +1 enchantment, this would require increasingly longer breaks; the player's guide suggests that those breaks would be available between books of the AP). In the event the weapon is sundered, he would have to get someone to cast make whole, and I suppose if it gets lost he's screwed (or it would provide fodder for a side quest).
I do understand that it means limited opportunities to upgrade and not being able to use bows the party finds along the way, but he would never be an optimized archer anyway. I'm thinking about his early- to mid-level feats as 1-PBS, 3-Precise Shot, 5-Spell Focus (necromancy) or Rapid Shot, and 7-Rapid Shot or Spell Focus (necromancy); I'm not trying to build Paëral here, just someone who can be useful in combat beyond his spells while the phantom handles fighting in melee.
My question for you is whether you see any particular obstacle to going this route (if I end up playing a spiritualist)? Any concerns about how I'm reading the trait or with the way upgrading the weapon in this manner will work in this campaign?
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Hey everyone! Really excited to get to play this AP in particular with this group of players in particular.
I've been playing around with a few concepts and the one I've developed the most (primarily because it takes the most work to function) is a Mysterious Stranger Gunslinger 1/Divine Hunter Paladin X. I've also been looking at cleric, or inquisitor, some kind of character with divine spellcasting.
Cellion: Kineticists are more flexible than you'd think! I play one in a game with CW and they're a great melee/ranged switch hitter, and not bad at debuffing either. We had an encounter with an ettin last week and it spent the whole fight flat on its back because of an at-will grease effect. As a Water kineticist, they also have the highest AC in the party and are great for both burst healing and making sure everyone is at full HP at the end of the day.
To add on to Tusk's questions, would you be interested in using the Feat Tax rules?
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@Cellion Strong disagree about the flexibility of kineticists, although I suppose it depends on what you're wanting to do. It'd be nice if they had gotten more support from Paizo but the Spheres of Power feats and items for them are nice. I'd prefer to limit the 3pp material used here, but if you decide to play a kineticist I'm open to allowing those expanded options.
I'm going to leave it up to the table to decide how optimized you want to be. I'm happy to dial the encounters up a notch if that's what you all want. And as Losonti suggested I'm a big fan of the feat tax rules, though I don't think it would help a huge amount in Tusk's case.
I will add one strong suggestion: having your characters be connected to Rostler's Coffer in some way would be very good. The characters can be itinerant wanderers just passing through but you'll get less out of it in that case.
Because of how the first two books work out as far as shopping/time for crafting goes, I'm willing to go one better and just rule that Heirloom Weapon gives you proficiency with longbows, point blank.
Otherwise as you said the Spiritualist doesn't have a lot of feats to throw at combat styles. It's not my decision of course, but have you looked at the Death Druid? It gets a phantom but otherwise will never lack for ways to contribute with the druid spell list.
The concept is a classic, but what brings a Bellflower agent to a border town in Vigil?
I've never had a chance to play or even see someone else playing a kineticist, so its good to hear other folks have had a positive impression. Just looking at the class, it seems to have a hard-hitting single target ranged attack, and then picks up individual tricks slowly over time with talents. I think just by reading it I assumed the talents would come in too slowly and be too narrow. Hearing of the broad range of things you're doing Losonti implies otherwise :)
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They're definitely complicated, but building and playing it one level at a time really helps, and it really does have no dead levels. Since you get a wild talent or infusion every level, there's never a point where all you get is a numerical increase to something. The lack of official support is a bummer, and some elements are nigh useless, but beyond that I highly recommend it.
Getting permanent flight at level 6 is no joke, either.
That said, with it looking like everyone might be going for ranged/support, that makes me lean a little bit more toward a virtuous bravo paladin or a living grimoire Inquisitor. I'd pick magus but I've already inflicted that on CW in one of their home games so I'd want to find a different spin on it.
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So, after reading the Player's Guide, it seems we are not infiltrating a society run by a Tyrant, but instead fighting a powerful undead creature and his horde...That calls for a different kind of hero. I tend to be drawn towards melee fighter types, so I should probably try something a bit different.
So, Tusk is thinking Spiritualist, Losonti is thinking a ranged or divine caster character, and Cellion is considering a blaster sorcerer, though all of it could change. I am considering making a monk...let me see what I can come up with...okay so, yes, it is a melee fighter type, but not one I have played recently...
So an idea crossed my mind, though I don't know whether you'd be up for it CrusaderWolf.
I have a couple homebrew classes I designed over the last year or so. Unfortunately, the chances to actually test if my designs are any good are few and far between. Both have had their math tuned and tested in white-room scenarios, but that's no substitute for actually testing in a proper game. I managed to entice one of my home game players to try one of the two in a one-shot, and at least for the duration of that game it seemed pretty fair. Sadly since my home group is in a long-running campaign, no one has had the opportunity to switch to either of them for a longer period of time.
Would you be willing to allow me to run one of them in this campaign to try to put them through their paces? If they prove to be problematic for whatever reason (confusing to play with, unbalanced, etc), I would be happy to immediately switch to a Paizo class instead.
The two classes are:
Choreographs a set of routines of combat moves at the beginning of the day and expends Routine slots to use them. The moves it can use are extraordinary, but fundamentally mundane, unlike something like the Book of Nine Swords, which leaned on giving martials various crazy supernatural abilities. A mobile martial class with a few bard-like support aspects.
Hey y'all! :D I've met all of you except for Tusk, so nice to meet you!
As far as builds, I'd like to sit on the frontlines if that's ok.
I've been thinking that a Knight of Arnisant Cavalier (no investment in charging beyond what the class gives, so totally fine if the horse isn't around for a bit) from the Order of the Dragon would be really cool. They'd be defensive focused and invest in bodyguard/saving shield. Obviously they'd be able to hit things, but they wouldn't be winning any DPR competitions and would work best when there is another person to stand up front with them (to bodyguard/saving shield on!). Probably even better if more damage is coming from range too, as I'd imagine this character could "hold the line" well enough. Probably not right off the bat, but I'm considering taking the character into the Knight of Ozem prestige class.
Other frontline characters I have in mind include a sword and board slayer or some kind of brawler. They aren't as developed as the above, but could get there.
With Tyrant's Grasp being so undead heavy, I think it is safe to say condition removal is going to be important. As a party, we should probably have a consistent way to deal with that.
@Cellion: I'm intrigued... No promises right now, but if you send me the info I'll give them a read and get back to you. And I absolutely adored the Book of Nine Swords, initiators were a wonderful pseudo-wuxia concept and it finally shut the wizards up about making martials cry!
@Gummy Bear: a Knight of Arnisant Cavalier would actually have some excellent roleplay applications and a strong connection to some of the historical themes, I think that's great.
One additional RP-centered note for your characters: there's no rush on this now but I'd like everyone to complete a short question character creation item to give me some knives.
Please list two goals your character has. Try to avoid self-evident things like “I wish to become more powerful” and focus instead on tasks or deeds you wish to accomplish. “I wish to become more powerful…in order to find and defeat the night hag who cursed my beloved and break the spell” is much better.
You character has three secrets.
1. A secret the character keeps from others,
2. A secret that has been kept from your character, and
3. A secret determined by the GM!
Please list 3-5 important people in your character’s life, no more than one of whom should be an enemy. This can be friends, family, mentors, or anyone else who has had a strong impact on your character’s life. Again, this should be more than just a “kill list” of enemies you want to fight :)
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Nice to meet you as well, Gummy Bear!
CW - The death druid archetype is pretty interesting. Full phantom progression, most of the phantom abilities, and 9th level spellcasting is a very nice combination. Seems like the only spiritualist class features I might care about that are lost are occult skill unlocks, which my druid can get with the Psychic Sensitivity feat - which is easier to take if we're using the Elephant in the Room/World Is Square rules. Some healing on the ordinary druid spell list, and very flavorful additions from the archetype. We would have to work out the goals for putting one phantom to rest and then moving to the next but I assume that wouldn't come up more than 2-3 times over the course of the AP (if then), and maybe we can tie that into the answers to the questionnaire (which I'll work on tonight).
I took a run at seeing what my general character concept would look like at level 5, using 15-point buy, drawback for a third trait, and the World Is Square Hero Lab mod. I'll backfill with your character-generation rules later and flesh out the backstory, and might tear it all up and start over with something else, but I think this is a good fit for my general idea for a duskwalker adopted by a family of Varisian travelers and accidentally bound to the spirit of a deceased bandit queen.
Here is a first draft of Sanduro Dzotsi and Zsofia, at level 5:
Sanduro Dzotsi
Duskwalker druid (death druid) 5 (Pathfinder RPG Horror Adventures 50, Planar Adventures 231)
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +7
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Defense
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AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 32 (5d8+4)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +7; +2 racial vs. negative energy and death effects, +4 vs. death effects, negative energy and energy drain
Defensive Abilities ward against corruption
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee cold iron dagger +6 (1d4/19-20) or
mwk cold iron sickle +7 (1d6)
Ranged longbow +7 (1d8/×3) or
sling +6 (1d4)
Special Attacks bonded manifestation (8 rounds/day), ghost hunter
Druid (Death Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +8)
3rd—greater magic fang, speak with dead (DC 16)
2nd—barkskin, ghostbane dirge[APG] (DC 16), stone call[APG]
1st—entangle (DC 15), goodberry, longstrider, magic stone
0 (at will)—detect magic, grave words[OA], know direction, read magic
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Statistics
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Str 11, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 17, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, Deadly Aim, Power Attack, Precise Shot, Psychic Sensitivity[OA], Spell Focus (transmutation)
Traits heirloom weapon (proficiency), scholar of the great beyond, the word
Skills Appraise +2, Climb +4, Diplomacy +0 (-3 to gather information or improve a creature’s attitude.), Handle Animal +4, Heal +9, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +3, Knowledge (nature) +6, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +6, Linguistics +2, Perception +7, Profession (medium) +7, Spellcraft +7, Survival +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Heal, +2 Knowledge (religion)
Languages Abyssal, Common, Druidic, Hallit, Varisian
SQ automatic writing (linguistics), dowsing (survival), etheric tether, faith healing (heal), finesse weapon attack attribute, gatekeeper (knowledge [planes]), phantom (Zsofia, jealousy), psychometry (appraise), read aura (perception), read tides (survival), stigmatized, trackless step, woodland stride
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds, ectoplasmic residue[OA], magnetized paper[OA]; Other Gear darkleaf cloth lamellar (leather) armor[UC], arrows (20), cold iron dagger, longbow, mwk cold iron sickle, sling, sling bullets (10), handy haversack, aura goggles[OA], automatic writing planchette[OA], bedroll, belt pouch, blanket[APG], censer[OA], dowsing rod[OA], flint and steel, holly and mistletoe, incense (oa)[OA], mess kit[UE], pot, soap, spell component pouch, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 5,789 gp, 6 sp
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Special Abilities
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Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Automatic Writing (Linguistics, 1/week) You can produce mysterious writing that pertains to the immediate future.
Bonded Manifestation (8 rounds/day) (Su) When phantom is in consciousness partially manifest it on self.
Combat Expertise +/-1 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -1/+2 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Dowsing (Survival, 1/day) You can follow a dowsing rod’s movements to locate a particular type of location.
Etheric Tether (Su) Lose hp to prevent dam to phantom that would banish it to ethereal. Phantom must remain close when manifested or concentration required.
Faith Healing (Heal, 1/day) Temporarily suspend or remove curses, diseases, and ability damage.
Finesse Weapon Attack Attribute Finesse weapons use Dexterity on attack rolls.
Gatekeeper (Knowledge [Planes]) Once you are aware of a soulgate, DC 30 Knowledge (planes) check to open it.
Ghost Hunter (1/day) (Su) Weps deal full dmg vs. incorporeal, magical can deal crits/precision. Can grant weps ghost touch.
Phantom (Shared Consciousness) Phantom can manifest as a separate creature or provide bonuses while sharing your mind.
Power Attack -1/+2 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Psychometry (Appraise, 1/day) Read the psychic impressions left on objects or in places.
Read Aura (Perception, 1/day) Read the psychic impressions left on objects or in places.
Read Tides (Survival, 1/day) Predict encounter along current heading, and use dowsing to locate nearby islands.
Spell Focus (Transmutation) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Stigmatized –3 on Diplomacy checks to gather information or improve a creature’s attitude.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural surroundings.
Ward Against Corruption (Ex) +2 vs. neg energy & death effects, and undead/sahkil Su or Sp effects. Can't become undead.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Zsofia CR –
Phantom (Pathfinder RPG Occult Adventures)
N Medium outsider (phantom)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16 (+3 Dex, +6 natural)
hp 30 (4d10+8)
Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +4
DR 5/magic, 5/slashing
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk cold iron short sword +8 (1d6+1/19-20) or
2 slams +7 (1d8+1)
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 15
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Bodyguard[APG], Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Deceitful, Power Attack
Skills Appraise +5, Bluff +11, Disguise +4, Knowledge (planes) +2, Knowledge (religion) +2, Perception +4, Stealth +7
Languages Common
SQ ectoplasmic phase lurch, finesse weapon attack attribute, gatekeeper (knowledge [planes]), jealous combatant, magic attacks
Other Gear mwk cold iron short sword
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Special Abilities
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Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Bodyguard Use an AoO to use aid another to improve an ally's AC.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Damage Reduction (5/magic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Magic attacks.
Damage Reduction (5/slashing) You have Damage Reduction against all except Slashing attacks.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Ectoplasmic Phase Lurch (Su) Bypass solid obstacles (but not creatures) at half speed, must end turn in clear space.
Finesse Weapon Attack Attribute Finesse weapons use Dexterity on attack rolls.
Gatekeeper (Knowledge [Planes]) Once you are aware of a soulgate, DC 30 Knowledge (planes) check to open it.
Jealous Combatant (Su) Foe struck with melee attack takes -2 to att vs. foes who are not the phantom for 1 rd.
Magic Attacks (Su) Slams count as magic for overcoming DR.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
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@Cellion: I'm intrigued... No promises right now, but if you send me the info I'll give them a read and get back to you. And I absolutely adored the Book of Nine Swords, initiators were a wonderful pseudo-wuxia concept and it finally shut the wizards up about making martials cry!
Cool! Here's the links to the nice pretty PDF versions of both of them. Let me know if you have any questions. I suspect the Dancer in particular is a bit hard to grok because of its weird mechanics. It may help to think of it as a martial arcanist (prepares Routines, 'casts' spontaneously from the prepared Routines based on the number of remaining slots of each level).
I know theres a few typos in both of them that should get fixed when I next attempt a revision.
If you're willing to let these in, I would encourage everyone else to take a look and consider trying one. Me testing them is not worth as much as someone else testing them and giving feedback.
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I made the layouts with Homebrewery, a really easy tool (markdown is such easy mode for formatting :O) originally designed for D&D5E content. There's a similar tool out there for Pathfinder 2E formatting as well, though I never came across one that emulated the Pathfinder 1E format style.
I'm still just starting on my read-through of the Skirmisher (haven't gotten to the dancer yet) but I am concerned about its power level already. Before we even get to feat selection or Rogue Trick debuffs we're looking at a Full BAB class with two good saves, 8 skill ranks per level, and burst damage that ranges from an average of +5 at Lvl1 to a jaw-dropping 110 at Lvl20 (with the potential to hit 200!) Other than a cavalier cheesing charges I'm not aware of any class that can do that, and Skirmisher can do it with a Standard Action attack which essentially makes them all but guaranteed to land that hit every turn while still getting movement, acrobatics, etc.
This style works for the Operative because they're only landing one hit per round anyway with Trick Attack compared to Soldier or Solarian who want to be full attacking whenever possible, but Pathfinder action economy is built around full-attack actions landing 2+ hits in order to deal that kind of damage.
I'm about to work so I can't do a deeper reading now, but could you send me your white-room calculations about how this compares to full-bab classes of comparable level? Please and thank you!
tonywheeler19@gmail.com is my email if you'd like to send it that way.
GM, how would you like to receive the answers to your questionnaire? Should the other players know/have access to these answers, or would you prefer we keep them secret/for the purposes of discovery via RP?
I'm glad you think so, it seemed like a very thematic choice to me, one more so than many of the others that the player's guide mentioned (I mean, actual ties to the lore, not just a passing mechanical relation!). On that note, does anyone know where I can find more information about Arnisant and all that hullabaloo? I'm sure there is wiki information, but I'm a little hesitant with doing a blanket search because of PF2 being the chance for the Pathfinder Universe to resolve AP events. I'd rather go to specific sources (I'll poke around regardless, just trying to mitigate risk!).
Here is a build out of the current iteration of a Knight of Arnisant/Knight of Ozem build. Again, this is more of a defender than a striker that would want to be upfront with someone who could dish out the hurt!
Human Knight of Arnisant Cavalier Order of the Dragon 8/Knight of Ozem X
Str: 16 Dex: 13 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 10
Traits - The Lawbringer, Indomitable Faith
FCB - +1/4 Banner Bonuses
Skills (4+Human -> 5/lvl)
Perception
Survival
Ride
Climb/Swim/skills for aiding
Acrobatics for 3 ranks/skills for aiding
Feats
1 Combat Reflexes
B Bodyguard
B Shield Focus
3 Saving Shield
5 Missile Shield
6 Covering Shield
7 Power Attack
9 Greater Shield Focus
10TW Outflank
11 Iron Will
B Improved Shield Bash
Level two is where the build picks up, since his aid bonus rises to +3. Level three is where it is in full defender stride, since he can boost AC as an AoO AND spend an immediate action to give an additional +2. Then some investments in saving himself with the shield, power attack, and a dive into Knight of Ozem from level 9 onward. He can't give the outflank feat to his allies (tactician is gone), but that means someone else could take it if they like and have a guaranteed partner! :)
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[snip] He can't give the outflank feat to his allies (tactician is gone), but that means someone else could take it if they like and have a guaranteed partner! :)
Gummy Bear, I think Zsofia (Sanduro's phantom) would be happy to take outflank or other melee combat teamwork feats anytime starting at level 7, once she's done with the combat reflexes/bodyguard/in harm's way chain. Sanduro is not likely to consider taking coordinated shot or another ranged/melee combo teamwork feat before level 11, so at least as far ahead as I can see she should have 1-2 feat slots open that could work to team up with you or another of our front-line fighters.
A few things to mention:
You can check out my math that shows the expected damage per round in different circumstances (full vs. single attack, precision vs. no precision).
The "Compare" page shows how the skirmisher's damage compares to a vanilla CRB 2-hand fighter and archer fighter. I've previously found these vanilla builds as good benchmarks. If you want the details on the calcs for these builds, I'm happy to share them. But I didn't want to overwhelm you more than I'm already doing :)
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@Gummybear this Arnisant page is probably a good place to start! For the questionnaire, my email is tonywheeler19@gmail.com if you'd like to send it to me that way! Much easier to search than Paizo's PMs.
@Cellion yours will take longer so you'll have to wait :p
[snip] He can't give the outflank feat to his allies (tactician is gone), but that means someone else could take it if they like and have a guaranteed partner! :)Gummy Bear, I think Zsofia (Sanduro's phantom) would be happy to take outflank or other melee combat teamwork feats anytime starting at level 7, once she's done with the combat reflexes/bodyguard/in harm's way chain. Sanduro is not likely to consider taking coordinated shot or another ranged/melee combo teamwork feat before level 11, so at least as far ahead as I can see she should have 1-2 feat slots open that could work to team up with you or another of our front-line fighters.
That'd be great! :D It only comes in at level 10, so definitely nothing to rush into getting. With your Phantom going the bodyguard route too (no in harm's way for me though), is that a bonus that stacks? I think it does since it is via aid another, but something we'd want sorted by the GM sooner rather than later :P If they don't stack, I'd be ok with swapping to some other feat, but having two people able to buff AC's for different people would be nice anyways...
Thanks GM! I'll take a look and maybe follow some rabbit holes :)
So one question we could ask is why a rogue-type build *ever* really needs to out-DPR a fighter build when it also gets a so many skills/skill tricks and trapfinding and debuffs. It trades out the raw damage output for the much higher versatility. Once we start factoring in the UMD talents there's seemingly nothing this class can't do.
But leaving that aside, my thinking is that a build that does a full attack's worth of damage on a single hit isn't balanced with those other classes because the circumstances where you're getting one attack off way outnumber the circumstances where you're getting full attacks. Any situation with difficult terrain so the fighter can't 5ft step, for example, or being invisible and charging in, for another. You're getting to land that burst damage for full-attack-equivalent damage pretty consistently.
I guess I'd have to see it operate in practice to know how often you wouldn't be able to get that attack in. I guess anytime you move up to an enemy but aren't flanking, or fail a feint. But then you can always take the talent to do that burst damage at range and potentially *still* get that damage for the same reasons out to 100ft. It seems like it does too much too easily, which isn't a problem except that it leaves
What I'm leaning towards right now is to run this as an NPC in an encounter or three during the campaign and see how it plays, but I don't think I can approve it for PC play in good conscience for a full AP. I'd be more comfortable running it in a module instead.
I'll look at the Dancer next and see what I think.
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I am following the discussion here with interest. I am trying to decide if I need to make a healer type or a frontline damage dealer...I could go either way...Losonti, what are you considering?
The one I've put the most thought into is a Gunslinger 1/Paladin X build, but there's a ton of other things I've been looking at, most of which could fit either role.
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I am following the discussion here with interest. I am trying to decide if I need to make a healer type or a frontline damage dealer...I could go either way...Losonti, what are you considering?The one I've put the most thought into is a Gunslinger 1/Paladin X build, but there's a ton of other things I've been looking at, most of which could fit either role.
@Damon Grimm - Just my two cents, but I don't think you should feel any pressure to play a primary healer if you'd rather play something else. I don't have much experience playing with paladins except in the occasional one-off or PFS scenario, but it looks like the archetype Losonti mentioned earlier (divine hunter?) doesn’t give up much if any of the core class's usual pretty good healing and potentially excellent condition removal, right? And the druid spell list has OK healing and a couple of low-level condition removal spells as well. So if that's what we end up with, I think we will probably be in decent shape for healing - we won't have a dedicated healer, but we won't be left to rely on found potions of CLW, either. Of course, if you want to play a character who can serve as a better primary healer, it certainly wouldn't hurt.
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Yeah, Divine Hunter is still quite capable of healing as needed. It mostly trades out some auras and heavy armor proficiency (plus the 6th level mercy), but it's also still a dex-based full BAB class, so can stand up in melee if needed. Heck, starting at 8th level I'd be able to use lay on hands at a range further than I can actually move.
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Me too! I started out trying to make it work with a longarm instead of a pistol, but unless CW lets me use a Mosin-Nagant or some other advanced firearm, literally the only way to be able to full attack with a two-handed firearm is 3 levels of Musket Master and alchemical cartridges. Then I'm looking at a max of 1 grit point, which is a bummer.
What would be best is if the Holy Gun archetype wasn't so terrible, then I wouldn't need any dips. Alas, it is awful.
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3 levels is a heck of a tax (and means no spellcasting until level 7), and the worst part is it's incompatible with Mysterious Stranger, which lets me use Charisma for Grit instead of Wisdom (and adds Charisma to damage at level 1!).
My plan is Gunslinger first. The beginning of the adventure will make that a bit rough, but it fits the character concept better and the feat tax rules make it easier to live with.
As far as bringing one in on an NPC, go for it! If you do I'd like to hear your impressions.
Maybe CrusaderWolf would let you reflavor your pistol as a longarm?
...but unless CW lets me use a Mosin-Nagant or some other advanced firearm...
Hmm...well Reign of Winter has technically already concluded when this campaign ends. That gives me something to consider.
@Cellion: You have convinced me, if you want to test a Skirmisher in this campaign I'll allow it, with the caveat that you should have some sort of replacement build to substitute in if it becomes necessary.
@Damon: that's a good question and I don't know the answer right now, I'll double check the pdf and let you know.
@EVERYONE: one of the best changes in PF2e is the revamped action economy, which switches out all the different types of actions and grants you a default 3 Actions plus 1 Reaction. So casting a spell takes two actions and a move or attack is one action. A Swift action is also one action but you can do more than one in a turn now (So for example a Warpriest could use Fervor to Swift cast three times; or they could Swift Cast, Move, and Attack). Is something that y'all would like to do? I'll leave this up to the table.
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Works for me - it isn’t as though druids or spiritualists get too many swift actions under the original system. Would you use the full PF Unchained 3-action system or adapt it from PF2? IIRC, there are differences, but I don’t remember offhand what they are or how significant they might be.
Also, it means saving piles of $$$$ because we won’t need spring-loaded wrist sheaths/scroll tubes/etc. Those run 5-10 gp EACH!
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Works for me - it isn’t as though druids or spiritualists get too many swift actions under the original system. Would you use the full PF Unchained 3-action system or adapt it from PF2? IIRC, there are differences, but I don’t remember offhand what they are or how significant they might be.
Also, it means saving piles of $$$$ because we won’t need spring-loaded wrist sheaths/scroll tubes/etc. Those run 5-10 gp EACH!
While we’re talking about Unchained rules, how do you feel about background skills?
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Here's a link to the complete Revised Action Economy rules from PF Unchained.
As I understand it, each iterative attack is treated as one of your three actions. I took a quick look to see whether there is any specific reference to what happens to the fourth iterative attack a full BAB class gets at 18th level but couldn't find anything, so it's possible that may be lost. Anything that gives you an extra attack seems to be treated as one of the following, depending on what it's closest to:
- Two-weapon fighting
- Flurry of blows
- Combat reflexes
- Haste
The 3-action economy is a straight bonus for most characters, because most characters don't get many swift actions as a matter of course. But if your character would have lots of unusual swift actions or funky combo actions in the default action economy, it may not benefit you and may even reduce your effectiveness (at least relative to the majority who gain an action every round by it). Losonti's example of a magus as a class that probably loses out is a good one. Here's another: the arcane duelist bard, because almost every round in combat they would have to use one action to activate arcane strike (a significant part of their damage output), which would be a swift action in the default action economy.
Unlike PF2, most free actions are still free (other than 5-foot steps), which is great - I hate having to spend an action to do a knowledge check.
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A big yes to Background skills! And we would use the regular unchained economy rules, not working backwards from PF2. I'll put the house rules and games in a file at the top of the campaign tab over the weekend.
@Damon essentially everyone gets iteratives from the get-go, but the stacking -5 penalty still applies so lower-level classes still don't get as much utility. (So your Lvl1 Fighter could full attack at +6, +1, -4 with all three actions)
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Damon:The concept is a classic, but what brings a Bellflower agent to a border town in Vigil?
After five years of working with the network in and around Cheliax, Garret learned that his hometown was rebuilding, but still beset by tribes of orcs and mysterious undead energies. Now named Garret Fallows after his rescuer, the young halfling warrior returned to his hometown--to the delight of his adoptive parents--and for the last two years has used his martial skills to defend his hometown and keep a lookout for any marauders who might see Roslar's Coffer as a target once more (Reclaimer campaign trait).
Goal 1: Prevent the town of Roslar's Coffer from being conquered (and its people from being murdered or made refugees) again.
Goal 2: Find out who his true parents are, where he came from, and why he was adopted.
Secret 1. A secret the character keeps from others: He is adopted and is something...different...than truly a halfling.
Secret 2. A secret that has been kept from your character: The identity of my parents.
Secret 3. A secret determined by the GM!
Please list 3-5 important people in your character’s life:
1) Adoptive parents are important as a unit, but mostly as a strong reminder that he must protect the town and its people. They may or may not have leads to Garret's true parents, but have not shared them as of yet.
2) "Farmer", the current leader of the Bellflower Network who personally rescued him (true identity somewhat hidden, but last name is Fallows).
3) Emma, a fellow slave for 3 of his 5 years of captivity--a confidante and love interest who he lost track of once he was rescued. She may still be a slave or she may have been rescued or escaped--he has no idea.
4) Redtooth, the sergeant of the Twisted Nail orc horde who captured him, killed some of his friends, and sold him into slavery. An enemy, obviously.
@CrusaderWolf: Cool! I appreciate the willingness to give it a chance. Thanks also for the comments and impressions on reading the Skirmisher. It's always interesting to hear what people notice first when they read a class. Do you think you could consider the Dancer as well?
BTW, I'd especially welcome if someone else wants to try the Skirmisher out, as they wouldn't come into it with my preconceptions and knowledge about how it works.
As for the Unchained 3 Action Economy, I've never had a chance to actually play with it, but I've heard that its great most of the time and sometimes just breaks hard. While the swift action issues are pretty well known, I've also heard GMs complaining about natural attacks. Some monsters only have a single strong natural attack and no iteratives - the 3AE makes those monsters much stronger than they would have otherwise been since they now get to make iteratives with those attacks. Meanwhile monsters that relied on many small attacks don't reap nearly the same benefits (and thanks to the 5ft step now being an action, its easier to play keep away with them).
The additional iteratives at low levels actually increases the damage everyone's doing at low levels by a lot, more or less doubling the damage dealt . Seems like a lot of work on CrusaderWolf's end to make sure the party or enemies aren't all dying in a flash :)
Also, I think it makes 3/4 BAB classes a lot stronger, since they aren't waiting on their iteratives anymore.
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The more I think about it, the more I think I'm willing to give it a go!
Though, the more I dig into the Unchained 3AE, the more questions I have. Like should Vital Strike just be banned? How does staggered work? Nauseated? Pounce?
Sooooo many things to be adjudicated.
I'm opposed to the three action system (although it is looking like I'm in the minority here). As far as I can tell, it is an all around nerf to the build I have in mind.
Specific to my build:
Challenge, my only swift action, becomes a third of my actions in a round (used to be "free" since it isn't competing with anything).
General questions/comments:
If the majority wants to add the system, that's fine. I'll rebuild a little. The idea is the same, would just need to tweak some of it.
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I can understand being concerned about the change if it's going to nerf your character concept. Any ability that gives you a swift action would now take an action. I've never played a cavalier, so I don't know what it does to your challenge. How big an issue it is depends on whether it's something you would use 1/day, 1/combat, or 1/round.
I think combat reflexes stays the same - the description says "If you have this feat, you can take a number of additional reactions between your turns equal to your Dexterity bonus, but those reactions can be used only to make attacks of opportunity. You gain all the other abilities of this feat." I read it as a total of 1 normal reaction + (Dex mod) additional AoO reactions, just like the original feat description.
Haste is an interesting question, but I think you're right - it gets nerfed, but maybe not as badly as you think. Rather than view it as just providing an extra attack at -15, I would look at it as giving you a chance to do something else even in a round when you would be full attacking. Something like: attack, attack, move 60', attack somebody else; attack, attack, retrieve a potion, drink a potion; or charge 180' and attack.
I agree that anything with a touch attack becomes more deadly. Not much to do about that except try to prepare and be ready to run.
One reason I like it - as someone playing a spellcaster with a number of full-round casting time spells and other full-round actions (e.g., changing the phantom from ectoplasmic to incorporeal or vice versa), the ability to decide whether to have the action take effect at the end of my turn instead of waiting for the beginning of my next turn is a big benefit. Not getting interrupted in the middle of summoning or calling down the lightning because the bad guy decides to target the guy in the back who's chanting and waiving his arms around - huge!