Dueling (FG) and Dirty Trick

Ok as far as I know you can not use a weapon in conjuntion with the Dirty trick manuever. But the Dueling (FG) says the following (personal bold):

So if the above sentence is correct what weapons can be used with dirty trick? And are they limited to only one condition (hit someone someplace sensitive for staggered) or can use them for other conditions (put out eyes for blinded)?

Also in a side note does anyone know why the PFSRD removed Dueling FG from their list?

Anybody? (Hoping that my thread just got lost in vacation times)

Funny, I found this after reading what you said on the thread for combat maneuvers at higher levels.

Well, considering the dirty trick itself is open-ended about how it can be implemented, I'd say you'd be free to add the enhancement bonus to pretty much anything. A GM might not agree but I could picture things like...

Blinded: Reflect light from the weapon to your enemy's eyes.
Dazzled: Same as blinded.
Sickened: Is that what you meant by your staggered example?
Deafened: Ring the weapon against some of their armor (if they're wearing a helm, you're golden).
Entangled: Use it to twist their feet around a bit and put them off balance.

Depending on the GM, you might need to get creative, but I think there's plenty of ways to imply it can be used for the bonus.

For Dirty Trick to work, you actually have to be creative.

I love this maneuver.

What kind of acid was the writer of the Dueling property on? A luck bonus equal to TWICE the enhancement bonus? That turns the +5 weapon into a +15 on maneuvers for the cost of a +1 property... that's ridiculous.

What kind of acid was the writer of the Dueling property on? A luck bonus equal to TWICE the enhancement bonus? That turns the +5 weapon into a +15 on maneuvers for the cost of a +1 property... that's ridiculous.

No it's not. It's useful. If you ask me there are far too many near-worthless weapon abilities out there already. And it's not "+15," it's "+10" (and only with a +6 equivalent weapon worth at least 72,000gp--up there with greater horns of blasting, helms of teleportation, telepathic crystal balls, and robes of the archmagi). The other +5 would have been their without the enchantment.

"it grants a luck bonus equal to twice its enhancement bonus"

So that's +5 (enhancement) +10 (luck)

Yes I know. That's precisely what I said. I just didn't want people thinking dueling was giving you a +15 bonus, which is what you seemed to be indicating. It does not, it only gives a +10 bonus (at best).

Not sure I'd allow weapon uses with Dirty Trick. All the DT examples are non-weapon based ("blow sand in his eyes" etc.), plus you can't do it as an attack (generally).

Dueling does seem to imply a +15 max - double luck bonues which stacks with enchantment bonus...

Not sure I'd allow weapon uses with Dirty Trick. All the DT examples are non-weapon based ("blow sand in his eyes" etc.), plus you can't do it as an attack (generally).

Dueling does seem to imply a +15 max - double luck bonues which stacks with enchantment bonus...

Just so long as you recognize that only 10 of that is actually from the dueling property and the rest from your general enchantment.

Yeah, I kind of think this property is B.S. It totally obsoletes the normal Dueling property. No weapon should give +10 to anything, and having this property on your weapon does more to help your chances of completing a maneuver than any other aspect of your character. This shouldn't exist.

And arguing that other properties suck or that maneuvers need help are not good points here. If other properties suck, they should be fixed and enhanced, not replaced by a ridiculous one. And if maneuvers need help, they should fix how CMB/CMD scale instead, not band-aid over it with a ridiculous weapon property most people have never heard of.

Yeah, I kind of think this property is B.S. It totally obsoletes the normal Dueling property. No weapon should give +10 to anything, and having this property on your weapon does more to help your chances of completing a maneuver than any other aspect of your character. This shouldn't exist.

And arguing that other properties suck or that maneuvers need help are not good points here. If other properties suck, they should be fixed and enhanced, not replaced by a ridiculous one. And if maneuvers need help, they should fix how CMB/CMD scale instead, not band-aid over it with a ridiculous weapon property most people have never heard of.

Well that was not the question of the thread for a. For b. that is your opinion and still irrelevant to the question being asked here. Not to be snarky but I do hate derailing opinions on a rule.

The question is again what weapons does dirty trick work with? Can you just fluff it out (get creative which I have no problem with) or is there actual rules that dictate how the weapon is to be used?

The question is again what weapons does dirty trick work with? Can you just fluff it out (get creative which I have no problem with) or is there actual rules that dictate how the weapon is to be used?

To my knwoledge there are no rules for it, all status should be accesible to weapon users.

Look at CMB/CMD scaling.
10+BAB+Str+Dex+mods / BAB+Str(or Dex)+mods. So, you are starting the eqation off 10+(secondary stat mod) down on the chance.
IF... you have the full +5weapon before you have any other enchants, all the dueling enchant does is drop that down to the secondary stat mod. (I'm assuming that anything you can do for extra bonuses the enemy can do as well.)
For a primarily NPC based campaign this is an outstanding choice, but, for a Beastiary encounter you're still looking at around a 30-50% miss chance, WITH the enchant, unless it's something you have focused in. If it's something you have focused on, and provided you aren't fighting one of the innumerable enemies that is immune to your particular favorite technique, even a full fighter won't have more than 2 options at a cost of 2-3 feats each.

This is a GM Fiat maneuver. If the weapon makes sense, then you get the bonuses per SKR. (he uses a sap for sickened in his example i believe) That's what makes it so bad for PFS, as some GMs just say "it's not listed so it doesn't work".

mplindustries wrote:

Yeah, I kind of think this property is B.S. It totally obsoletes the normal Dueling property. No weapon should give +10 to anything, and having this property on your weapon does more to help your chances of completing a maneuver than any other aspect of your character. This shouldn't exist.

And arguing that other properties suck or that maneuvers need help are not good points here. If other properties suck, they should be fixed and enhanced, not replaced by a ridiculous one. And if maneuvers need help, they should fix how CMB/CMD scale instead, not band-aid over it with a ridiculous weapon property most people have never heard of.

Well that was not the question of the thread for a. For b. that is your opinion and still irrelevant to the question being asked here. Not to be snarky but I do hate derailing opinions on a rule.

The question is again what weapons does dirty trick work with? Can you just fluff it out (get creative which I have no problem with) or is there actual rules that dictate how the weapon is to be used?

There is no mandate on these boards or the internet in general that responders to questions MUST respond ONLY about the original question. In fact it is generally assumed that a question will spark other commentary which can take the thread down other paths.

So, to put it bluntly, your opinion about irrelevancy is irrelevant. People can and will state their opinions about things that are posted.

And my opinion is that mpl is dead on here. I would not allow this in my games. It's absurdly overpowered and is yet another example of how the content creators for PF are descending down the same path of bloat and overpowered content that become so obviously overpowered that anyone would be a fool not to take it, so everyone takes it.

One of the things I liked about PF when I started playing it was that they seemed to be more careful about this sort of thing than Wizards was. I suppose you could argue they still are MORE careful, but too much of this silliness is getting through now.

Look at CMB/CMD scaling.

10+BAB+Str+Dex+mods / BAB+Str(or Dex)+mods. So, you are starting the eqation off 10+(secondary stat mod) down on the chance.
IF... you have the full +5weapon before you have any other enchants, all the dueling enchant does is drop that down to the secondary stat mod. (I'm assuming that anything you can do for extra bonuses the enemy can do as well.)
For a primarily NPC based campaign this is an outstanding choice, but, for a Beastiary encounter you're still looking at around a 30-50% miss chance, WITH the enchant, unless it's something you have focused in. If it's something you have focused on, and provided you aren't fighting one of the innumerable enemies that is immune to your particular favorite technique, even a full fighter won't have more than 2 options at a cost of 2-3 feats each.

It depends. The beauty of dirty trick is it versatility, if the monster yiou are facing is inmune to blindness you could use another status.

beides at hgher level if you run the numbers a fighter or barbarian will autosucced against like 30% of the CR eqivalent monster out there.

Adamantine Dragon: I have just seen WAY TOO many discussions (here and on other game forums) get overtaken by things that are not relevant to the question at hand and then then question never gets answered. I always try to keep the conversation on track when possible if the original question had not been answered. As for the overpowered bloat it happens or you have to completely change the system every couple of years(release 2.0, 3.0, etc.) which is not an approach I am fan of either.

That aside do you have any opinion about the actual question at hand?

Adamantine Dragon: I have just seen WAY TOO many discussions (here and on other game forums) get overtaken by things that are not relevant to the question at hand and then then question never gets answered. I always try to keep the conversation on track when possible if the original question had not been answered. As for the overpowered bloat it happens or you have to completely change the system every couple of years(release 2.0, 3.0, etc.) which is not an approach I am fan of either.

That aside do you have any opinion about the actual question at hand?

I think the question has been answered pretty thoroughly Lord. There is no RAW list. So your GM will have to make a ruling. I think that was determined several replies ago.

To answer your other question, I can only suppose, but my supposition is that it was removed from the PFSRD list because it's totally broken.

Adamantine Dragon: Yeah I would have to agree. Was hoping someone would point out a nice RAW option to show a DM.

Hmmm should I start a new thread about inventive ways to use weapons and dirty trick or just let people post ideas here now that we have determined the answer?

Adamantine Dragon: Yeah I would have to agree. Was hoping someone would point out a nice RAW option to show a DM.

Hmmm should I start a new thread about inventive ways to use weapons and dirty trick or just let people post ideas here now that we have determined the answer?

You might do some searches. I know I've seen some threads on "dirty tricks".

However, a new thread devoted to that should be entertaining. This is exactly the sort of thing where one person's "creativity" is another person's "crazy exploit".

So let's get it on!

Here we go (in mario voice): Dirty Tricks

Another Question: If you had an amulet of mighty fists with dueling and Grab on a natural weapon, can you get the bonus on a natural weapon? What if you are taking the -20 penalty to only use that body part?

johnlocke: for dirty trick I see no issue (maybe people will come up with stuff in the new thread for more specific). For grapple I actually asked a similar question concerning Hamatula Strike and if weapon enhancements would apply but got no answer.

Doesn't the weapon in question have to have in it's description words like trip(kama,bolas, etc) or disarm(nunchaku, flails)?

johnlocke: for dirty trick I see no issue (maybe people will come up with stuff in the new thread for more specific). For grapple I actually asked a similar question concerning Hamatulasa Strike and if weapon enchacements would apply but got no answer.

I have assumed it does(considering you use your weapon for it). We have a paizo blog saying " Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.". Using a weapon for hamatulasa strike seems like such a situation. Incidently, it answers the OPs question.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom

Doesn't the weapon in question have to have in it's description words like trip(kama,bolas, etc) or disarm(nunchaku, flails)?

no

Stargypsyd wrote:

Doesn't the weapon in question have to have in it's description words like trip(kama,bolas, etc) or disarm(nunchaku, flails)?

no

Star, as I understand it, having the word in the description means there are additional considerations (like "trip" means you don't get tripped yourself if you fail by 10 or more), but you can use any weapon for any CMB maneuver.

Thank you,I learn something new everyday!

One caveat, there may be some weapons which specifically say they CAN'T be used for some maneuvers...

Indeed it has been clarified that contrary to many people's assumptions you CAN do a trip or disarm manœuvre with ANY weapon - the weapon types (Trip, Disarm) just add benefits if your weapon has them but you don't need to use only those weapons.

Dirty Trick however being a later addition doesn't have a specific list of what tricks can be done with which weapons - making it subject to more variability in PFS play than many other manœuvres. But since it is exceptionally flexible and useful against a wide range of opponents even into very high levels it is still worth the table variation.

(My Lore Warden who has focused on trip and dirty trick certainly is happy when he can use his rapier - which means he gets his weapon expertise, weapon training, weapon focus and magical enhancement bonuses. But if he has to use an unarmed strike instead he still has a fantastic effective CMB since weapon finesse still applies (He has a level of maneuver master monk so has improved unarmed strike)

That leaves him only +1 lower than with his rapier (due to have brawling armor giving him a +2 to his unarmed strikes - his rapier is currently only a +1 agile rapier).

His CMB is quite good:

BAB + DEX (due to weapon finesse) + 4 (Improved & Greater dirty trick) +2 (lore warden bonus - going up to +4 at level 7) +2 (resonant Dusty Rose ioun stone) +2 (brawling armor) - for a current +21 CMB w/dirty trick w/unarmed strike, +19 for trip w/unarmed strike (+22 w/dirty tricks with his rapier due to +1 from weapon training, +1 from magical enhancement and +1 from weapon focus). That's at level 8 (he also has a level of rogue - if he was a pure lore warden 7 / maneuver master monk 1 his CMB for dirty trick would be +3 higher due to one more BAB and a higher Lore Warden bonus to CMB)

Overall even given variation in interpretations of dirty trick with weapons (even unarmed strikes) he is quite effective. As a player I also really like the flavor and creativity of using dirty tricks - I think of them as being a really smart and crafty fighter - someone who uses every advantage to help end fights early w/o needing to always just trade blows until someone dies.

The question is again what weapons does dirty trick work with? Can you just fluff it out (get creative which I have no problem with) or is there actual rules that dictate how the weapon is to be used?

Adamantine Dragon already said everything I would have said about relevancy, so I'll just answer this.

I see no reason you can't perform any dirty trick with any weapon. Describe it properly and get your (totally B.S.) bonus.

I do not see the problem with the Dueling FG. a +5 Dueling FG weapon is 72K, you are paying 22K for it, for less money a wizard can have a totally crazy rod of dazing or save a little more and buy the uber useful rod of quicken.

So the dueling FG thingy is not legal in society play?

Yeah... it is from the PSFG which is legal.

Yeah, I kind of think this property is B.S. It totally obsoletes the normal Dueling property. No weapon should give +10 to anything, and having this property on your weapon does more to help your chances of completing a maneuver than any other aspect of your character. This shouldn't exist.

Well...the dueling in the FG is before the dueling in UE I believe so I wonder if dueling in the FG is over-ruled by the version in UE. An official word on that for PFS would be kinda nice...unless somebody does have a source...if so please share :) .

It depends. The beauty of dirty trick is it versatility, if the monster yiou are facing is inmune to blindness you could use another status.

The problem with dirty trick is you lose that dueling FG property with many dirty tricks you pull, because they aren't made with the weapon. Remember, you have to describe what you are doing. There are ways and means, very often, but it depends on your weapon. Also there are many conditions that many foes are immune to, plus it takes a standard action and you can't combine it with a normal attack.

Hence: "I slash him above the eyes for blindness" could be judged "to do that you would have to inflict damage, which dirty trick doesn't do; it's a Called Shot which I don't run; lastly, you are using a rapier which is a piercing weapon, no slashing." Or "He's a forty foot tall giant, you can't REACh his ****ing eyes!" is another possibility.

Dabbler: That is another reason I created the other thread was to get ideas for myself, and others, of how to use weapons with Dirty Trick.