The Bigger Blunder

Killing the magazines, besides being a really bad move IMO, also pissed me the heck off and still pisses me off (and I don't expect it to ever stop pissing me off). Made me very hostile to WotC, and likely to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

The edition change, I don't care about one way or another, really. I'll keep my eye on it out of curiosity, but when they killed the magazines, my affection for the D&D game out-of-the-box really went cold.

Got nothin' but love for Paizo, tho, and will keep getting their products to adapt to whatever system I am using at the time (currenly a port of Star Wars Saga Edition).

-The Gneech

Killing the magazines.

I won't be converting to 4.0. though I may steal things from it. To use the overused cliche' Wizards seems to like. "I'll beat up 4.0 and take it's stuff"

The magazines were, to me, a bridge to the past and the future kids could read the fiction and cartoons, and then discover the rest of the magazine. For longer articles, dead tree is easier to read than live screen. Things like Will Save (am I the only guy who liked it?) reminded me of myself, teaching my friends' kids to play. I'm planning to run Hollow's Last Hope next weekend for a halloween party, in fact.

It's a lot harder to point to a screen with a child in your lap and go, "Look, you fought that!" I don't have any signed Dragons, but I enjoy being able to show new gamers my signed books and say "I met these people, and they wrote this. They're just like you and me, but they did what I couldn't."

Having your post on a message board is nowhere near as warm and fuzzy as seeing your letter in print.

..... Things like Will Save (am I the only guy who liked it?) reminded me of myself, teaching my friends' kids to play.......

I was also a huge fan of Wil Save. He touched on all the things that are coming up in my life(and that I am looking forward to) with my kids and D&D...

FH

I was also a huge fan of Wil Save...

OK, what's the punch line?

...Seriously.

Definitely miss the magazines more than 3.5. I dealt with the last set of edition changes, started dead-set against them, and then grew to love them.

I'm 100% willing to see how 4E goes. I'm not happy to lose any magazines I love. Heck, I've stuck with White Dwarf for more than 130 issues, thick and thin. And that tends to be a rag, but I love it. Having something come in the mail every month is always fun...

I am sad and mad however that I won't have any new support for my chosen engine, 3.5, come late 2008. That saddens me.

Kobold Quarterly may support you. It really depends on what readers want, and what OGL support is extended to KQ early.

DM Jeff wrote:

I am sad and mad however that I won't have any new support for my chosen engine, 3.5, come late 2008. That saddens me.

Kobold Quarterly may support you. It really depends on what readers want, and what OGL support is extended to KQ early.

I can vouch that the Kobold Quarterly kicks some serious tail. Give it a shot.

I'm not the oldest of the old school, but they haven't alienated me. I set aside my anger and adapted to the new situation, principally because I like what I hear about 4e and also because I see all kinds of potential in the web format (art and map integration into the digital table-top, hyperlinks to other articles both inside and outside of the DI, searchable indexes, the ability to integrate errata, etc. etc.) What good does being PO'd for months on end do anyways?

A very good point. I see that not all old school D&D players feel alienated by the green brains of Gleemax. I don't have a Myspace. I don't down load music from the internet. I get my news from the paper and television. Also I read my magazines on the toilet not the internet. So these web, hyperlink, what a ma doos, just are not in my consciousness.

I too like what I see coming in the D&D 4e (except the rumors of no gnomes, which James Wyatt may or may not have alluded too). My anticipation to see 4e. grows by the month.

But I was also optimistic of the e-tools that were promised with the release of 3rd edition. What ever hapened to that? the premiere of new online Dragon and Dungeon magazines were also disappointing. So although I am optomistic about 4e, I do not share that same optimism for the DDI. I like the idea of the online virtual game table, so I can play with my wide spread cousins and uncles. I hope they can deliver on that.

Much thanks to Shroomy for putting things into perspective.

I guess I'd say that killing off the print magazines was slightly more hurtful to me than the edition change in general. But while I know the print mags are gone--and despite how much they could improve on their early e-versions--I still know very little in the grand scheme of things about the edition change. So I'll reserve judgment, on an ongoing basis as updates trickle down. The score so far: for every promising thing they suggest, there are 2 things that annoy me intensely. It'll be an uphill climb for them to get me to buy into 4th ed. at this stage.

Latest stunner: the subscription-based model for what used to be 3 core books; deliberately holding out core things that have been around since 1st edition, so you're compelled (I didn't say forced) to get the next annual batch of core books...that stinks to high heaven as a cash-grab.

Interesting observation that I had not thought of, and which could be a positive trend, imo.

My personal guess, based on nothing but instinct, is that the DI was conceived as a way to ensure steady, consistent revenue tied to the D&D brand. It gives WotC much more "even" sales over the course of the year, because they can count on X number of subscribers paying $10/month or whatever rather than a more hit or miss print publication schedule. Likewise, it allows them, in theory anyway, to pare back their print releases to fewer, bigger, and more important "essential" products that (again in theory) all 4E players will buy, kind of like it was back during the 1E era.

Interesting observation that I had not thought of, and which could be a positive trend, imo.

The proof is in the pudding, of course. If WotC basically stuck with a new PHB, DMG, and MM every year, with perhaps a handful of adventures and other non-essential supplements per year, DDI could fill the gap previously filled by the one or two hardcovers a month schedule we saw in the late 3E era.

I am skeptical that WotC will demonstrate the self-control necessary to make this business model work, but we shall see.

Shroomy wrote:

I'm not the oldest of the old school, but they haven't alienated me. I set aside my anger and adapted to the new situation, principally because I like what I hear about 4e and also because I see all kinds of potential in the web format (art and map integration into the digital table-top, hyperlinks to other articles both inside and outside of the DI, searchable indexes, the ability to integrate errata, etc. etc.) What good does being PO'd for months on end do anyways?

A very good point. I see that not all old school D&D players feel alienated by the green brains of Gleemax. I don't have a Myspace. I don't down load music from the internet. I get my news from the paper and television. Also I read my magazines on the toilet not the internet. So these web, hyperlink, what a ma doos, just are not in my consciousness.

But I was also optimistic of the e-tools that were promised with the release of 3rd edition. What ever hapened to that? the premiere of new online Dragon and Dungeon magazines were also disappointing. So although I am optomistic about 4e, I do not share that same optimism for the DDI. I like the idea of the online virtual game table, so I can play with my wide spread cousins and uncles. I hope they can deliver on that.

Never think all the old school players feel alienated. I'm basically a Jurassic gamer, and I'm not alienated or even particularly angry. Would I rather have my classic mags? OH YES! Do I still play old school D&D? ALSO YES! Am I impressed by what I've seen of the DDI? NO. Does Paizo impress me? ABSOLUTELY YES.

I don't know enough about 4E to have an informed opinion. I doubt anybody outside WOTC does. So ... I will wait and see. All the previous editions are still there for me to enjoy.

Times change. People change. Is it any wonder that games change?

I'll miss the Mags far more than I'll miss 3E.

The proof is in the pudding, of course. If WotC basically stuck with a new PHB, DMG, and MM every year, with perhaps a handful of adventures and other non-essential supplements per year, DDI could fill the gap previously filled by the one or two hardcovers a month schedule we saw in the late 3E era.

I am skeptical that WotC will demonstrate the self-control necessary to make this business model work, but we shall see.

I'm fairly certain it's been noted that they will continue publishing at least 1 hardcover a month w/ 4th edition. This in addition to the 3 core books/year, plus DDI. I'm not sure how economically feasible this will prove for them. It turns off many older players like me, who view it cynically, and for all those supposed "new" players they hope to get, who are allegedly younger players, I just don't see the disposable income there. As I've said before, those of us older players who have the disposable income, are just the players being shunted to the side (yes, this is still conjecture and subjective and not all-inclusive...) w/ the conceptual changes to D&D implicit in 4th ed. Well, it's really an accumulation of factors, as noted a hundred times on these boards...

Yeah, The Mags for me.

However only recently seeing the rather wonderful looking module/mags that Paizo is puttting out im quite impressed, I don't tsurpose Paizo would want to make a genreal gaming magazine , maybe two, we could call them draughlings and donjons

L

Watcher! wrote:

More or less a hostage situation.

That might be a bit strongly worded but it's not completely off-base.

My personal guess, based on nothing but instinct, is that the DI was conceived as a way to ensure steady, consistent revenue tied to the D&D brand. It gives WotC much more "even" sales over the course of the year, because they can count on X number of subscribers paying $10/month or whatever rather than a more hit or miss print publication schedule. Likewise, it allows them, in theory anyway, to pare back their print releases to fewer, bigger, and more important "essential" products that (again in theory) all 4E players will buy, kind of like it was back during the 1E era.

In the late v.3.5 period, hardcover books were effectively periodicals anyway. So many were released each month and very few were intended as "evergreen" products that would stay on the shelf very long beyond their initial print run. I expect WotC didn't find this model profitable enough to keep it up, so the DI was conceived as a way to bridge the gap. I don't think it will work, because the DI is neither a real magazine nor a MMO, the two subscription-based products that work best on this model, which is why I fully expect, within a year or 18 months that the DI will become more important to the actual play of 4E than it's intended to be.

I hope I'm wrong, though.

I was a bit sad when the magazines were cancelled. But as things have developed I think Pathfinder is excellent and I love it. We would not have a Pathfinder if the magazines had continued in the same way they had.

I also do not expect a company to continue doing something that is not paying off for them. They are in business and as a business man I totally get that decisions are based bottom line on the money.

Heck, I am thinking right as we speak - what can I offer people that would enticse them to come to a membership website. I haven't quite got that figured out yet - but who on this board would not like a few thousand people sending them $10 to $20 a month for the privledge of accessing their content. It will be available as soon as I can figure out what content my market may find worth the membership price.

I am exceited about 4th Edition. I will certainly wait to figure out if my group is going to change over. Right now my players do not sound very interested but once I look it over if I decide to make the change I can gift them with a few players handbooks and we can move forward. I certainly won't make the change with the group until Pathfinder does - no reason to play around with converting everything. Although, I might decide to convert some of my favorite old school adventures just to get familiar with the rules.

Just curious, are you angrier at WotC for murdering the mags or thrashing 3E? Which, in terms of upsetting you the consumer, is the bigger blunder?

It's hard for me to separate the two. It angers me most that they're aggressively pushing this online direction without a solid gameplan. "Yeah, we've been saying for years that there's nothing like sitting around a table with your friends creating a shared world of living, breathing imagination... but the world doesn't want that. It wants phat lewt, and we want their dollars for said phat lewt."

I'd understand if D&D Online was this massive MMO success, but instead, we're going to sacrifice the pen and paper product for a lackluster online experience. I just don't have faith in WOTC to carry this through and make it anything but a half-assed money grab. Sadly, it stands to kill the hobby as many D&Ders I know have already abandoned the game in favor of the convenience of WoW. If the last few grognards have to go online to get a mediocre game going, it's going to die quickly.

Once the 3.5 Ed. books are gone out of print, the only chance they'll have to gain new blood is to try to compete with the WoW market, and I just see that as a recipe for disaster, unless they were going to unveil something awe-inspiring, and a "virtual gaming table" is just not enough.

Not to get all "chicken little", but tabletop RP gaming is quickly becoming an archaic, anachronistic hobby like model railroading, that has a niche market and limited appeal to a conglomerate like Hasbro. D&D will become a videogame license, and the game itself will fall by the wayside.

I was overjoyed to see the D&D presence back in bookstores for 3rd Edition, but now I'm more worried about the presence of BOOKS in bookstores (instead of huge sections of CDs, DVDs, coffee, and calendars). Maybe WOTC just sees the writing on the wall and is trying to get a jump on the cultural curve, but it feels so shoddy and desperate rather than the bold, new initiative they'd like us to believe it is.

Hell, is 4th Edition getting ANY buzz from outside the hobby? Is there any indication that they will achieve their goal of attracting new customers, or are they just risking what few they still have?

The loss of the magazines

I bought maybe one book a year but I bought 20+ issues of both mags.

Editions come and go (take a bow , Games Workshop!) but it's the periodicals (...you too, White dwarf!)keep the game alive esp. when players go thru their "sabbaticals" due to too much real life happening! (Try gaming on any sort of regular basis with a mortgage and bub!)

I have to agree that I miss the mags more.

While I have stated before that I do not plan on getting 4e, that is largely due to my players not being interested in changing. That may change at some point if i get around to running a Star Wars saga system game, but for now, I am no interested in 4e.

Of course, had WOTC use the print mags to sell 4e like they did for 3.0e/3.5e and like TSR did for 2e, I might be interested. WOTC sold me on the Ebberon Campaign setting with the previews of the artificer.

Definitely the magazines.

I barely played 2E for various reasons, but I always kept up with the game via the magazines.

Yeah, I know I can do that via the web now, but here's the kicker: I was working 16+ hours a day on a longliner in the Bering sea. Not much internet out there. I don't forsee that for myself, but I can sympathize with people in the military on deployment, or people livin' in the boonies, the magazines are the lifeline.

WoTC has made another mistake in the past: We have all heard of the too heavy publication cycle. This is true. But even if they go a PHB, DMG, MM every year its too much.

You need games. You need DMs who can write adventures or you need to provide those adventures. Its been stated that "modules" don't provide the revenue. That's so short-sighted. Perhaps in-and-of themselves they don't provide revenue, but its what brings people to the table, and when they come to the table often, they'll buy PHB XI.

Dungeon served a need that has been lacking, and Paizo has really mastered that. I for one do not want to run my games through DDI. I want a hardcopy. Will WoTC produce QUALITY adventures? That will get me to play 4E, even if its not "really" D&D...

The loss of paper magazines certainly is worth my anger. I'm far more upset about that than 4th edition.

A multitude of livid fans, who've poured thousands into their hobby, say they are not being talked to and their concerns are going unheard. If a company runs its PR so poorly that such ill will is allowed to foment, I'd qualify that as a solid blunder. Unless the plan was to piss us off, in which case kudos. Compliments to the cook.

For me, murdering the mags is far worse than thrashing 3E.

Agreed. The magazines were part of RPG history.

Wow a lot of agreement... yep killing the mags was a horrible thing for us all.

So far I am extremely disappointed with the online offerings. Sure it's the free stuff right now, but if this is the way of the future I think the Dragon and Dungeon franchises are dead dead dead. It really seems no different at all from what they offered online before they murdered the mags.

I'm angry at both... Righteous, Furious, Biblical, Fight Club anger. For the better part of August I couldn't read a post on the 4E gleecrap forums without wanting to destroy something. Pillars of salt, burn the world, atom bomb kind of anger. Yeah I probably take it to close to heart, but hey this is my favorite extracurricular activity. In the 22 years I've played I can honestly say I've spent more time thinking and working on my weekly game than school or work. So when WotC took a big steaming dookie on everything about the game I love I got miffed.

Just curious, are you angrier at WotC for murdering the mags or thrashing 3E? Which, in terms of upsetting you the consumer, is the bigger blunder?

For me, murdering the mags is far worse than thrashing 3E.

-W. E. Ray

Obviously, I can have no attachment to or relationship with 4e at this point. I had a strong attachment to the magazines built up over years. Thus, I feel the loss of the magazines much more keenly. I feel the loss in terms of reading material but also more philosophy as Dragon was the (A)D&D magazine of record and now there is nonesuch. I feel the hobby is diminished by the loss and as someone long invested in the hobby I feel my enjoyment of the hobby is to some degree diminished as well.

On a slightly different, note I think Wotc terminated the magazines too early. Dragon was instrumental in selling both 2e and 3e to the hardcore gamer. 4e has no such vehicle. Yes, I can read the various internet forums but the internet being the internet that is a double edged sword. The magazines allowed TSR and Wotc to make a case without rebuttal. The intenet is nothing but rebuttal or support from "Friends of 4e" whose online demeanor makes me want to reach for a can of Raid. The magazines still had one more function they could have performed for another six months at least, maybe a year.

I will miss Dragon.

It was the one place i could discover all kinds of cool products and publishers. I discovered Steel Sqwire and other cool little companies making awesome products to make my game better. Not ot mention all of the fine Game mastery stuff.

There is a real need for an RPG mag to feed us geek the scoop on what's new.

As for 4E - I CANNOT WAIT!

Everything I have read suggests that they are fixing the BIG problems and making this game ROCK. I am tired of combats that take hours. I am tired of spells and critters that produce bang your dead attacks. I am way tired of magic item overload.

My prediction - Dragon will be back in print at some point.

Just curious, are you angrier at WotC for murdering the mags or thrashing 3E? Which, in terms of upsetting you the consumer, is the bigger blunder?

For me, murdering the mags is far worse than thrashing 3E.

-W. E. Ray

Mags. Paizo did an about face on quality a couple of years ago and actually brought me back into the magazine fold.

But I get uneasy with what I perceive the direction of 4E to be. As the man said, "I got a bad feeling about this..."

Kobold Quarterly may support you. It really depends on what readers want, and what OGL support is extended to KQ early.

Indeed. I recently completed my most recent revision of the paladin PrC class (something that's been going on since 3.0), only to crack open the latest issue of KQ that had been laying around, neglected due to a busy schedule of work and grad school, only to discover some *very* similar ideas appearing in the mag. Actually, even the errors that crept in were quite nostalgic, haerkening back to the days when there were a lot of niche products for AD&D. I'm looking forward to continued patronage of KQ. Keep up the good work Wolfgang!

Just curious, are you angrier at WotC for murdering the mags or thrashing 3E? Which, in terms of upsetting you the consumer, is the bigger blunder?

Neither, really. I'd quit the mags in the late 2e era and never bothered resubscribing, so I wasn't affected any by that decision. And I thought 3E went into terminal expansionitis roughly at the point that they started adding new "base" classes, and was awaiting a back-to-basics 4th edition.

No, my core anger is that I never liked the Magic: the Gathering model where core elements of the old edition of the game got thrown out in favor of new stuff from the expansions, and I especially don't like that model being applied to Dungeons & Dragons.

The Magazine, definitely. 3.X was going to leave us, that much was certian. When was up for grabs, but the final outcome would have been the same.

Losing the two biggest print mags in the industry, not so certain. I pretty much feel that being the "Killing Wash" moment. When Joss killed off Wash, all bets were off for the rest of the Serenity crew. WotC killed off the print mags, all bets are off as to what else they will kill off (i.e. quality, caring about customer wants, the OGL (granted they didn't kill that THIS TIME, there's always next time)).

I hate both, but killing the Dragon, and blowing up the Dungeon, was their mistake.
Sharoth? Heathy? Fatey? Lilith? What's with the change of avatar? Why are all the lords of the boards changing their avatar to be like Erik's?'
Well, if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me!

Sharoth? Heathy? Fatey? Lilith? What's with the change of avatar? Why are all the lords of the boards changing their avatar to be like Erik's?'

Well, if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me!

Go here, KC.