The Mouth of Doom (Inactive)

Game Master Grimmy

Unless you allow SLA to qualify for early access into Eldritch Knight I really can't see how it could hold up to a well built magus. Maybe after level 10 or so but before that the Magus just has way better action economy.

Also entry into EK is such a pain in the ass. You need 5 levels of Wizard and loose out on so much BAB by doing so.

Also at level 1 a potential EK is prolly a first level fighter so I don't think the comparison is really all that exciting before level 5 or so.

Do you think Magus with no archetypes is on more of an even field with EK? If I were to OK magus but no hexcrafter would you still want to play one? Would you play one without traits?

I'd be interested in playing an archaeologist bard, possibly going into EK (haven't actually looked at how mechanically viable the idea is). I think archaeologist is one of the UM archetypes, but anymore I'm so used to using the SRD I don't know what comes from where much anymore. Couple questions first though...

Down the road there is another GM doing a Rapan PBP that I plan on applying for. I don't know when it starts, but I'm curious if I end up getting accepted in that would you have issue, being that you plan on possibly running RA too.

What sort of posting frequency are you looking for? I'm normally good for 1 per day 1 per two days, for sure, and there's every chance I can post multiple times a day from time to time.

How soon are we looking at starting? Just whenever enough of the right people apply, or at a set date, or something else?

Okay put together a Dwarven fighter, with the eventual idea being to go for the stalwart defender prestige class (assuming that he lives that long)

I'm not sure how much background you're looking for, but I can flesh him out if you choose him (or by request).

Ideally, i would like to have his background tied to another PC as a bodyguard or something of the sort. I'm currently seeing him as muscle for hire kind of guy.

I'd be interested in playing an archaeologist bard, possibly going into EK (haven't actually looked at how mechanically viable the idea is). I think archaeologist is one of the UM archetypes, but anymore I'm so used to using the SRD I don't know what comes from where much anymore. Couple questions first though...

Down the road there is another GM doing a Rapan PBP that I plan on applying for. I don't know when it starts, but I'm curious if I end up getting accepted in that would you have issue, being that you plan on possibly running RA too.

What sort of posting frequency are you looking for? I'm normally good for 1 per day 1 per two days, for sure, and there's every chance I can post multiple times a day from time to time.

How soon are we looking at starting? Just whenever enough of the right people apply, or at a set date, or something else?

I'm glad you asked those questions.

Posting Frequency:

I haven't mentioned post rate because I don't want to narrow the pool of participants but at some point in the greater campaign I would like to get at least one group together then can handle frequent posting.

For this adventure though, I am hoping for 1+ posts a day, and permission to bot your PC for an action or two as needed if you are absent longer then that.

Barring any unforeseen circumstances you can expect updates from me to come promptly as my job has downtime and allows me to visit the boards (on an iPad though, so I still have to figure out the best way of handling the combat maps. I kind of like the minimalism of google docs spreadsheets, what do you all think?).

Other RA Campaign:

I wouldn't worry about the other RA campaign, there are a lot of variables in play, it should be easy enough to make sure one game doesn't spoiler the other too much. I am using RA as a site-based thing, the plot stuff will grow organically and be based on RP with different factions and NPC's in Bard's Gate. That city has some secrets I wouldn't want spoilered, but I seriously doubt another GM on the boards will feature them in a campaign the way I am going to.

Where overlap is unavoidable, I will trust you not to meta-game.

I am hoping for mostly people who are unfamiliar with the material though.

How soon do we start?:

This recruitment will probably conclude pretty quickly. I have some people in the sidelines if it doesn't fill up, so I would say the roster will be announced by thursday and gameplay open fri. Monday at the latest.

I'm going to be tracking the passage of time in this game as it is occurring in parallel with another group playing a related adventure in the same setting. Eventually, the impact you have on the game world may be felt by each other. There will even be opportunities for roster exchanges at a few logical points in the greater campaign.

The other group are just about all set and ready to go, so there is some element of first come first serve to this recruitment as you can see from Andrea1's immediate acceptance.

Party composition is also an important concern however, and I am also looking for harmonious play-styles as I have my quirks and don't want anyone to feel frustrated with me when they learn there is no magic-marts or WBL fairy in my game for example.

Okay put together a Dwarven fighter, with the eventual idea being to go for the stalwart defender prestige class (assuming that he lives that long)

I'm not sure how much background you're looking for, but I can flesh him out if you choose him (or by request).

Ideally, i would like to have his background tied to another PC as a bodyguard or something of the sort. I'm currently seeing him as muscle for hire kind of guy.

interesting idea

Sounds good to me.

I think I was in one PBP a while back where the person used spreadsheets, but I don't think it lasted all that long, so fresh ground on my end. I'm perfectly fine with minimalist maps though. A friend is running a game via roll20 and he traces the maps out of his book onto tracing paper, takes a photo with his phone, uploads it, and off we go. Been working nice so far.

I'll start work on the bard. Was the archaeologist kosher then?

Okay put together a Dwarven fighter, with the eventual idea being to go for the stalwart defender prestige class (assuming that he lives that long)

I'm not sure how much background you're looking for, but I can flesh him out if you choose him (or by request).

Ideally, i would like to have his background tied to another PC as a bodyguard or something of the sort. I'm currently seeing him as muscle for hire kind of guy.

No pressure, but would you be interested at all in using a divine class such as cleric or paladin before entering stalwart defender? There is a strong need for divine characters in this campaign and they really shine as well. Also it would diversify you from another applicant, Klor Kraggson. If that doesn't appeal to you, don't give it a second thought, there is nothing wrong with two fighters.

Sounds good to me.

I think I was in one PBP a while back where the person used spreadsheets, but I don't think it lasted all that long, so fresh ground on my end. I'm perfectly fine with minimalist maps though. A friend is running a game via roll20 and he traces the maps out of his book onto tracing paper, takes a photo with his phone, uploads it, and off we go. Been working nice so far.

I'll start work on the bard. Was the archaeologist kosher then?

Archaeologist is fine, as we don't have any proposed rogues yet as far as I can tell. I have seen an archaeologist bard in RA and he did quite well.

It's a bit early to mention this but I am considering starting this at second level. Thoughts?

Sounds ok to me.

no matter to me..

Dm any chance you read the PM? I want to get everything together and work on the storyline.

I read the PM's buddy, not ignoring you just collecting my thoughts and waiting to see how a couple things play out. All I can say is, rest assured you will play in one group or the other. And the story stuff all looks great.

I like your writing style a lot, you manage to be very evocative without being overly wordy. Like the thieves cant.

Second sounds good. Preferable honestly. Between starting a first level game and running a first level game where I had to make multiple characters for people...anything above and beyond level 1 is appreciated.

OK I'm just going to call it then. Level 2.

Okay put together a Dwarven fighter, with the eventual idea being to go for the stalwart defender prestige class (assuming that he lives that long)

Thank you for highlighting something -- The possibility of death.

This material has a reputation for deadliness. It's not a meat-grinder in the rocks-fall-you-die or even Tomb of Horrors sense, but it is quite lethal. I do a few things to mitigate this because I think it's great to get invested in your character - The bonus feat, the action points, these things should help, but most of all I try to convey the importance of choosing your battles when you can, and running away when it it is feasible, if you have gotten in over your head.

A lot of us in the D20 era never consider running away or avoiding encounters. This is partly because the mechanics don't make it seem to work very well, and partly because of the way the game handles challenges and rewards.

In my games you are not assured a series of APL appropriate challenges by CR. If you hear about a dragon's lair and go there you might find a dragon, no matter what level you are. Even the random encounter tables have some stuff you really don't want to fight. So there are times you will want to run away.

So why is running away unpopular? Well, it's not very heroic, but also, players usually want their XP, right? I address this partly by giving out more then typical ad hoc and story award XP, so there is an incentive to avoid or get out of a losing battle so you can live to accomplish important goals without forfeiting your XP awards.

There are mechanical reasons why people don't run as well though.

Many times a withdraw action just puts you within range of a charge, so I make use of some oft neglected rules and interpret others loosely so that running away is not just a way to sacrifice action economy and get yourself killed. This may involve opposed dex checks to get a lead, opposed con if they pursue, and a little bit of hand-waiving and fiat to make cinematic escapes possible via terrain and environmental conditions, when it makes sense.

Despite all these measures, there is still a possibility of dying in my games. I want to make sure that is out on the table right now.

I understand and respect the playstyle that expects characters to be assured success or at least the kind of meaningful death that the player envisions for a character he or she has lovingly created. I don't begrudge that playstyle at all, I may even attempt it some day but this is not that campaign. Full disclosure.

Sorry I haven't mentioned this earlier, the FGG/Necromancer Games books all have a similar disclaimer up front and urge DM's to share it with the group before starting.

Well level up later.

Plus runing gets harder later on when critters can teleport or just flat out move faster than you.

I could play a cleric. I doubt I would switch into Stalwart Defender though.

So I've made something preliminary. You can find the character crunch as well as backstory here. I'd love input on the backstory.

Can you guys give me a hand by looking over each others crunch for mistakes? Working on the maps is keeping me pretty busy.

Also, talk among yourselves about connecting backstories, and visit the campaign tab for setting details.

I'll be the first to point out I didn't add in my bonus feat. Decided not to yet because I'm mulling over prestiging into Arcane Archer... Are wild-blooded bloodlines allowed?

Backstory looks superb to me, we'll just have to decide where to stick that matriarcal tribe I suppose. Maybe just leave it ambiguous if you don't count on being able to interact with them.

Which wild-blooded are you looking at?

Empyreal which is in UM I think. It works out flavorfully and mechanically but I wouldn't enter AA until level 11 so I still have time to think about it. There's also the whole only being able to cast up to 3rd level spells by level 20 that bothers me. I may just be better off staying a Zen Archer.

As far as the tribe goes, we can talk about it later. Would you say getting any of the source books for Lost Lands will ruin our adventure? Like can I skim adventures and just read about the world from the books?

Well level up later.

Plus runing gets harder later on when critters can teleport or just flat out move faster than you.

Without resorting to pure fiat or deus ex machina, I do have a few tricks up my sleeve. But yes, of course you are right.

Empyreal which is in UM I think. It works out flavorfully and mechanically but I wouldn't enter AA until level 11 so I still have time to think about it. There's also the whole only being able to cast up to 3rd level spells by level 20 that bothers me. I may just be better off staying a Zen Archer.

As far as the tribe goes, we can talk about it later. Would you say getting any of the source books for Lost Lands will ruin our adventure? Like can I skim adventures and just read about the world from the books?

What are empyreals? I'm not even sure they exist in the cosmology of the setting as I envision it, but I'm curious about them. I have been associating Freya with Elysium and representing her valkyries with Ghaele Azata. That's not a hard no, if you can make it make sense to me. I'd love to see an arcane archer in action anyway, a few of my players have planned for it but never reached it so far. I tried myself once but the campaign folded too soon.

As for the source material, thank you for asking, that's very courteous of you. I'll trust you to use your judgement, but it would be quite an undertaking. There aren't any fluff-centric books, there are just volumes and volumes of adventure material with maybe one tidbit of setting material in an adventure, if that.

They only decided to publish an official setting recently, they were always intended as adventures to be transplanted into homebrew or other published settings. The authors themselves use the material in Judges Guild's Wilderlands of High fantasy setting from what I understand.

If you do attempt it you probably won't spoil much as long as you avoid reading Bard's Gate, Rappan Athuk, Crucible of Freya, Tomb of Abysthor, and Slumbering Tsar. There are other things I'm going to use but those are the big ones that will be more rewarding to discover through the gameplay.

Ok so far I'm seeing:
Andrea1 - Hound (Barbarian)
Taco - Quetzal (Aasimar Monk)
Edward - Klor (Dwarf Fighter)
Fanguar - Ogrim (Dwarf Cleric)
Fraust - ? (? Bard)

Those seem fairly concrete there has also been mention of an inquisitor, two rangers and a magus. Also I got a PM about another inquisitor.

I was looking for 6 seats but can stretch it to 7.

If the inquisitor wants to follow Muir or Thyr, that would be great. It's helpful for the story.

The empyreal bloodline flavor text in UM reads as "your heavenly power derives from insight rather than personality" (pg. 71) which is a fancy way of saying you use WIS instead of CHA to cast spells. I usually interpret it as the same as the celestial bloodline for flavor, just mutated. The word empyreal is even synonymous with celestial I think.

There are empyreal lords in the Pathfinder campaign setting though. They're lesser deities that can grant domain powers and have cults dedicated to them.

This is from Chronicles of the Righteous (and I hope its ok that I post this here)

Each empyreal lord is associated with a particular paragon race: agathion, angel, archon, or azata. Empyreal lords possess the alignment and general physical attributes of their associated race-for example, agathion empyreal lords are neutral good and typically have bestial aspects. An empyreal lord's association with a particular paragon race does not necessarily mean the empyreal lord evolved from a member of that race, however. Some empyreal lords were indeed paragons who became exalted through exceptional deeds, but others manifested directly from the most remarkable mortal souls or divine miracles.

Sarenrae, the sun goddess in the campaign setting was once an empyreal lord before ascending to full god-hood. Empyreal lords definitely don't exist in that setting from what I've read so far, at least not in the same capacity as they do in pathfinder. If you decide against the empyreal bloodline I'll be fine with that. The more I look at the AA the less I want to burn the feats to make it work with zen archery.

Yeah they really need to do something to make prestige classes worth it again. The SLA fix is only for a few cases.

I understand Prestige was out of control in 3.5 but they overcorrected.

I could play a cleric. I doubt I would switch into Stalwart Defender though.

** spoiler omitted **...

Post in discussion when you get your profile updated, you're in with the cleric version.

GrinningJest3r wrote:

Well, s%&~. I didn't realize that Deep Walker is an Ultimate Combat archetype. Alright back to the drawing board! But it's getting late and I've got to wake up extremely early tomorrow. When does recruitment for this end?

I looked up deep walker, it actually would help me a bit with a macguffin. I would like to make an exception for it. Are you willing to work with me a bit to make the macguffin thing work?

Yes. Yes I absolutely would. Here's the statblock I have for him at the moment, I still need to gear him out. I'll write up his story while I'm at work. Just a question: would it be better for him to be human or dwarf? The statblock I've got is human, but there are some mechanical advantages to having him be a dwarf that I'm interested in if it works for the fluff, but if not I'm not concerned about it.

Human please, or drow is ok if you want. We have already a couple dwarfs. (I know, I know, there were 12 in the hobbit.)

Guys I'm very sorry for those of you who already shopped, I completely forgot to say this earlier. Although I am advancing us to 2nd level we are not starting with 2nd level WBL. Max starting gold only!

Sorry about the extra paper work, it completely slipped my mind.

Do you think Magus with no archetypes is on more of an even field with EK? If I were to OK magus but no hexcrafter would you still want to play one? Would you play one without traits?

The argument about action economy holds regardless of Archetypes. I was planning on going without traits as I don't overly care for that piece of cheese, not that I don't like cheese per se. I'd very much prefer the Hexcrafter over the Vanilla Magus for the flexibility it adds, and obviously also because what it gets is better than what it loses. But if you don't want a hexcrafter I'll build a Vanilla Magus. Up to level 4 they are identical anyhow...

Also the suggestion above about scarred Witch Doctor into EK sounds rather scary.

Also the suggestion above about scarred Witch Doctor into EK sounds rather scary.

I'm not even kidding, reading that gave me anxiety, lol

Alex Mack, how is your posting availability? The group definitely needs arcane magic but may not have room for both the EK and the Magus. I might have to take whichever gets a build up first and can commit to a decent posting schedule.

As you can see I post all day. It's just that I'm at work and shouldn't be building characters right now. I can have a build up before tomorrow for sure. I would need more time to come up with a reasonable backstory for a non Gollarion setting.

I will try to get to work now on a Magus level 2 with 1 bonus feat at level 1.

Human please, or drow is ok if you want. We have already a couple dwarfs. (I know, I know, there were 12 in the hobbit.)

If neither one would be better for the story, I think I'll stick with human. The idea that brought me to making him in the first place is that he sits just inside the easiest way into a cave system where there's reported to be extremely large quantities of treasure - rumors that he, of course, started. He sells his services as a guide or and extra sword, depending on how deep the group's pockets are. Of course other rumors are floating about that seem to say that he's the reason the caves are so dangerous in the first place while also decrying that he's the only reason even half of them make it back out alive.

Really, he'd be perfectly fine exploring the place with various groups of travellers, the only ones he actively looks to leave behind are the ones that try and keep his payment from him, or directly insult him. He refuses to be disrespected like that, but harbors no ill will to adventurers otherwise.

Of course, since this isn't straight homebrew setting like I normally do, all of the details are malleable.

Yup, human will work, but he has spent some time in the underdark right? That's what I need for the Macguffin thing.

Oh absolutely. He's not stupid enough to go poke around drow cities or svirfneblin enclaves or anything like that because he doesn't want to die, but what good is having rumors that you're the thing to be afraid of if you're too afraid to go exploring?

You said you were iffy on the ARG:

Is the dual Talent Human Alternate Race feature fair game? You replace Bonus feat and skilled with an additional +2 bonus to any stat.

Actually do you mind if he has visited a Svirfneblin enclave?

@Alex Mack go for it

I like where this is going. PLOT DEVICES EVERYWHERE!

I pm'd you.

PS the Svirfneblin is in the other group already {evil DM grin}

Grimmy can I probe your mind for background suggestions? Thinking along the lines of a young nobleman who showed a talent in the arcane arts, however he had been taking fencing lessons ever since he was snot-nose so using magic to augment his martial prowess came natural to him.

As to why he's adventuring I was thinking either the second son dilemma or possibly that he broke with his family over a romantic affair or some other teenage idiocy...

So guess the question would be: which institutions would be possible for Arcane training and which noble houses would work out.

Ok Alex Mack we can do this two ways. There is a city, Bard's Gate that is detailed down to every shop, so we can fit you into specifics there. Or there is a city that I have no details about at all except a name, Reme, so if you have your own creations you can run them by me and we can stick them there as long as they fit the tone and magic level of the setting and so forth.

I think I'll go for the latter that gives me more freedom to make stuff up as needed also if he's a runaway noble he'd probably have moved along.

OK, awesome, then let your imagine run wild.

Just keep in mind the magic level is not like Golarion or Forgotten Realms. It's not low-magic, but you won't see any centaur shopkeepers or anything like that. That is one of the examples they gave in the introduction to the sourcebook :) I think they said it was more fantastic then Middle Earth but less fantastic then FR.

For your question about an institution for arcane arts in Reme, one of the players in my other game, Edward Noble, has dreamed one up for his character Janna. You can read about it in his characters profile or PM him if you would like to use that institution and maybe invent some shared history? Up to you.

DM Grimmy, I was thinking of going Ranger (trapper) into EK + Arcane Archer - would that be acceptable?

Also, it seems there are others also considering going into EK, so I've got a second option to throw your way - a Tiefling Oracle Paladin.

I'm on the process of crunching both, but let me know your thoughts in advance regarding the idea.

The seats are filling fast, your best chance to make it would be the tiefling if you are interested in making him a devotee of thyr or muir, I really need a character with an interest in one of those two deity's for the sake of the story (this won't be important until later in the campaign though so if I don't get one I will still proceed). The tiefling race would be very unusual for these faiths obviously, but it could make for some interesting RP potential to be sure.

Oracle was not originally on the table for this game, is it an important part of that concept?

The trapper/ek/arcane archer sounds exciting, I'm not ruling it out, but it looks like we already have one ranger and one magus, as well as a zen archer, and maybe an archeologist bard, so there is a lot of overlap. That's not a bad thing in itself but it's something I do look at when I have to cut someone.

The archeologist bard I have not seen a build for yet from Fraust, so let's see what happens with that today.

Which character were you more excited about, the ek or the paladin?

Also, who else was thinking of EK, I must have missed that, I was only aware that you were.

The Oracle has some mechanic advantages for the build, as well as being a part of its background concept - having been rescued from the wild by another paladin - his tutor - he initially felt as some sort of conduit for holy power, but could not feel the presence of the God, hear its voice, nor its inspiration - it was a time of doubt, not knowing exactly what he was, and the part of his infernal heritage would play in it all (this was the idea for level 1, starting out as an Oracle in search of his call, and in fact his true self) - only the one leading him recognized him as the paradox he really was - a demonic creature born to follow the tenets of good and valor.

Starting at level 2, means I can assume he has found out more of his tru calling, thus becoming a paladin through a dreadfully traumatic experience - I have it written down, but to summarize, it involves the death of his tutor in a dark hole, while he would scream to the Gods, Demons and Devils for help in saving her - more on that if my selection process goes any further :D

Here's his basic crunch - most likely I see him as a follower of Muir.

Thoughts?

Looking at the list of current applicants, I think the Trapper going EK would be useful for the group, as I am not seeing anyone focused on trapfinding and or scouting, though I know Zen Archers can do it fine, and IF in fact an Archaeologist Bard pops in, he can do it also - though the ranged overlap may become boring.

Even so, I would be available to build also a rogue/wizard heading into Arcane Trickster since I see frontliners (Barbarian and Fighter), ranged support (Zen Archer) and healing (cleric), but not much utility nor Arcane for the time being, and rogues are... Well you know, useful (let alone a rogue/wizard) :D - yep I know, a lot of ideas running around in my head :D

I wouldn't count Fraust out, he was active in the thread early on and it really hasn't been very long. This recruitment is moving along quite fast, <24 hours without a post certainly doesn't = lack of interest.

That said, I do kind of need/want it to move along fast so it's kind of like this right now:
Get a build up, as an avatar + Adhere to the guidelines + Have an eye for party composition + Commit to reasonably frequent posting and intent to see the game through = Your in.

All your concepts are good ones. I need a divine character who follows Thyr or Muir badly, but definitely didn't expect a Tiefling. If your up for the RP challenge it could work, just understand that demons are sworn enemies of Muir, she exists to oppose them! It would be quite a feat to have convinced that church that your faith is a greater influence on you then your heritage is.

The group is also light on arcane magic so EK or AT would both be welcome additions.

Two people have mentioned interest in inquisitors, let's see if they resurface today, that will narrow things down a bit.