Can I Empower non-damaging spells?


Rules Questions


Empower Spell's fluff reads:

You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.

Other than that, its actual Benefit has nearly identical phrasing to Maximize Spell.

I have frequently come across both Maximized and Empowered versions of spells like Summon Monster, Mirror Image, Enervation etc.

I haven't found any official examples of the feat being used this way, that's why I'm asking. It seems the intended function is to amplify the spell's damage, but doesn't ban from using it for other things...?

Dark Archive

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

At no point in the benefit line does it mention only increasing damage. Ignore the fluff. It doesnt matter. Just read the rules.

If you are looking for official examples look through the APs if you have them. If not bother someone who does or trust me.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

For the purpose of Dispel Magic interacting with Empower Spell would you consider the 1d20 + Caster Level roll to be an opposed roll?

It is in opposition to the DC of 11 + Caster Level of the spell to be dispelled. However, it is not an opposed roll in the sense that you are making an opposed caster level check the way you would make a Perception check opposed by a Stealth check.

I would think that Dispel Magic would not be allowed to have Empower Spell applied as it is an opposed roll.


Hendelbolaf wrote:

For the purpose of Dispel Magic interacting with Empower Spell would you consider the 1d20 + Caster Level roll to be an opposed roll?

It is in opposition to the DC of 11 + Caster Level of the spell to be dispelled. However, it is not an opposed roll in the sense that you are making an opposed caster level check the way you would make a Perception check opposed by a Stealth check.

I would think that Dispel Magic would not be allowed to have Empower Spell applied as it is an opposed roll.

Yes, I don't think you can use Empower Spell on this.

Non-damaging effects that you can enhance may be for example the durations of some effects, like the duration of Cause Fear, the number of creatures summon with Summon Monster etc.

In effect it is similar to Maximize Spell, but it's not as powerful on average (for example 1d6*1.5 gives only 5.25 on average), on the other hand it can sometimes produce even greater effect. And you can use both of them at the same time, although that's +5 for the level increase.


Hendelbolaf wrote:

For the purpose of Dispel Magic interacting with Empower Spell would you consider the 1d20 + Caster Level roll to be an opposed roll?

It is in opposition to the DC of 11 + Caster Level of the spell to be dispelled. However, it is not an opposed roll in the sense that you are making an opposed caster level check the way you would make a Perception check opposed by a Stealth check.

I would think that Dispel Magic would not be allowed to have Empower Spell applied as it is an opposed roll.

The assumed definition of an opposed roll is that you and an enemy are making a roll using specific checks to determine which roll is higher (and therefore trumps the lower one), to see whether a certain effect takes place or not. Charm Person is a prime example of demonstrating what an opposed roll is, via an Opposed Charisma check to make a Charmed creature do something it wouldn't normally do.

If the definition became that it's checked against a statistic that an opposing foe possesses, such as the DC 11 + CL of a given magic effect, then quite frankly Empower would never work with any written spell because each facet of a spell (such as damage, special effects, and so on) is checked against a statistic of some kind, whether determined by the spell effects in the case of Dispel Magic, or by some other source in the case of Spell Resistance, and I highly doubt the feat was written with the intent to do absolutely nothing. For example, an Empowered Enervation would increase the 2D4 results by 50%, since those are variable, numeric, and associated with the spell's effects. A deadly use of the Empower feat that doesn't inflict damage (in the direct sense).

That being said, I don't see how a caster level check is considered to be part of an effect from the spell, it's a check that you, the caster, have to make in order for a spell to work, not something that the spell itself does for you, which is generally what a spell like Fireball does in relation to determining damage dealt. So, I wouldn't personally permit something like this to be enhanced by Empower on those grounds, but it's not game-breaking to allow it to work, since you're spending a 5th level slot (or 8th level slot for Greater) to have a better chance of dispelling those effects, I feel the added cost should be worthwhile.

I'd even rule the same for Maximize, for similar reasons I've stated above.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


That being said, I don't see how a caster level check is considered to be part of an effect from the spell, it's a check that you, the caster, have to make in order for a spell to work, not something that the spell itself does for you, which is generally what a spell like Fireball does in relation to determining damage dealt. So, I wouldn't personally permit something like this to be enhanced by Empower on those grounds, but it's not game-breaking to allow it to work, since you're spending a 5th level slot (or 8th level slot for Greater) to have a better chance of dispelling those effects, I feel the added cost should be worthwhile.

I agree with Darksol that empower/maximize isn't intended to work with dispel magic. And while it may not be overpowered to allow it to work with dispel magic, you need to be careful here. If you do allow it to work with dispel magic, do you also allow it to work with a spell like Thunderstomp, scoring a nat 20 for a maximized version and auto tripping the target creature (or creatures for the greater version)? And if it works with the attack roll of thundrstomp, is there any reason it doesn't work with the attack roll of shocking grasp? Or any spell that requires any kind of attack roll?


I believe Empower/Maximize isn't supposed to work with any kind of checks (d20 rolls).


The flavor is just flavor. The mechanical section tells you how it works. Empower and maximize do not affect d20 rolls, but they would help for things such as mirror image.

The Concordance

D20 rolls are a variable numeric effect of some spells... the only banned d20 rolls are saving throws and opposed rolls.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
D20 rolls are a variable numeric effect of some spells... the only banned d20 rolls are saving throws and opposed rolls.

I can't recall a case in which they are actually an effect. Usually they are just a check to determine whether the spell has any effect. Like in the case of Dispel Magic, if you fail the check the spell fails (has no effect), if you succedd it has the effect described.


ShieldLawrence wrote:
D20 rolls are a variable numeric effect of some spells... the only banned d20 rolls are saving throws and opposed rolls.

You can roll them to determine how effective your results will be such as when using telekinesis, but I don't know of any d20 roll that is an actual effect for a spell. What spells are you thinking of?

The Concordance

Is there a posted definition for "actual effect of a spell"? I see the EFFECT sections of lightning bolt, fireball, and dispel magic as pretty similar. None of them have an "Effect:___" like Scorching Ray does.


wraithstrike wrote:
The flavor is just flavor. The mechanical section tells you how it works. Empower and maximize do not affect d20 rolls, but they would help for things such as mirror image.

Mirror Image isn't the best example(the spell has a cap of 8 images no matter what), but spells like Confusion or Enervate are pretty good uses.


Maximized Teleport kills you and whomever you bring along. It also loses objects for good.

The Concordance

Are d% tables variable and numeric or just variable?


The caster level check for Dispel Magic is not an effect of the spell, it's to see if the spell takes effect, ergo, not applicable to Empower Spell.

The Concordance

The effect of this spell is making a caster level check, which may or may not dispel one of the opponent's spell effects. Since the effect is making a caster level check (which is variable and numeric), Empower Spell may be applicable.

Two ways of seeing it when compared to above.


Azten wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The flavor is just flavor. The mechanical section tells you how it works. Empower and maximize do not affect d20 rolls, but they would help for things such as mirror image.
Mirror Image isn't the best example(the spell has a cap of 8 images no matter what), but spells like Confusion or Enervate are pretty good uses.

You still have to roll to get a certain number of images so it works, even if it is capped.


ShieldLawrence wrote:

Is there a posted definition for "actual effect of a spell"? I see the EFFECT sections of lightning bolt, fireball, and dispel magic as pretty similar. None of them have an "Effect:___" like Scorching Ray does.

I agree that it could be spelled out better, but dispel magic is binary. It either works or it doesn't. There is no way to multiply that.

If you want I can start an FAQ asking do d20 rolls that involve caster level checks count.

If you have other examples I can include those also.

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