Stunned for one round is nice but not great and sleep is probably useless by now. Grease actually has three uses, trip, disarm and escape. Really good versatility. Silent image might work better with the fluff I have going and yes, depending on the DM's interpretation of "if interacted with", could be very effective.
DM: for silent image, does "interacted with" mean see or attack? When does the opponent get a Will save?
DM: for silent image, does "interacted with" mean see or attack? When does the opponent get a Will save?
I've known it to mean different things to different DM's. I've always thought that it meant whenever something focused on it intently enough that it could reasonably see through it as an illusion. So typically if something appeared in combat and acted threateningly towards something else it'd get a chance to save right away and see through the illusion, but if you cast a silent image of, say, a wall or part of terrain that doesn't stand out and doesn't do anything obvious like block a path the creature was familiar with, it wouldn't get a save unless it had a good reason to closely inspect that piece of terrain. Or, the classic, if you cast a silent image of a bridge across a chasm and pretended to run across it while flying away from a pack of coyotes, they wouldn't get a save until at least a few of them fell through it.
Does that make sense? If you all don't think that's fair, I have no problem with allowing the rule to be a "no save until you attack it", just note that that interpretation of the rules would then also apply to enemy spell-casters as well.
Its important to the plan. By your direction that means it would get a save against the illusionary archers immediately. I guess that's fair.
The consensus seems to be that you can either physically interact or spend a standard action to examine it to get a save. That's how I've always seen it run.
I think that would make it too powerful. In that case, any enemy that engages looses an action with no save at level 1 (they loose an action to an attack or just looking either way). That's really powerful. And it will continue to be powerful until true seeing becomes ubiquitous among the enemies. Or life sense. Or tremor sense. Or Blind sense. Not as powerful as I was thinking. Nevermind.
The consensus seems to be that you can either p physically interact our spend a standard action to examine it to get a save. That's how I've always seem it run.
That's fine with me as well if everyone would prefer that.
I'm typically pretty open with letting you the players decide on rulings like that since I want it to be your game just as much as mine. Keep in mind that all rulings like this are unilateral, they'll apply to any mages or things that use illusions you fight against in the future as well, potentially making those encounters easier or more difficult for you.
The options so far seem to be
1. What I originally ruled (somewhat case by case, save occurs whenever a close inspection would be reasonable and expected, doesn't necessarily take an action to do, threatening violence always gives a save)
2. Seeing the illusion at all, even glancing at it, invokes a save
3. Any "physical" interaction gives a save, typically an attack or other poking/prodding
4 . DarkDealer's suggestion, spending a standard action to "examine" or physically interacting with the illusion is required to get a save
Everyone is free to give other options and discuss as they wish, and we'll go with a majority vote for the ruling. How's that sound? Hope that seems fair for everyone.
I'd say number 4. That's the way I run it in my home games.
Also note that a save isn't necessary if you are provided with proof that something isn't real, like you try to lean on an illusory wall and fall through it, or if you swing your sword through an apparently solid creature (though not necessarily something like an illusory ghost).
I also think that it doesn't make sense for mindless creatures to be able to disbelieve an illusion, even if they see proof that it isn't real, but that one is a little more controversial.
GM question: My plan was to fly up and drop the bag, but it's light enough that I can actually use my telekinetic blast (currently limited to 15 pounds) to throw it instead. The text for telekinetic blast reads:
You throw a nearby unattended object at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weigh no more than 5 pounds per kineticist level you possess. If the attack hits, the target and the thrown object each take the blast’s damage. Since the object is enfolded in strands of aether, even if you use this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects; it simply deals your blast damage. Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage).
You substitute your Constitution modifier for your Strength modifier if throwing the object would have added your Strength modifier on the damage roll, and you don’t take the –4 penalty on the attack roll for throwing an object that wasn’t designed to be thrown. In this case, the object’s special effects apply (including effects from its materials), and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size
Now, it seems clear from that that the "loose strands of aether" version would work, but a bag full of alchemist's fire vials doesn't actually have any special weapon properties that would benefit from the "loose strands of aether" version of the blast (unlike, say, a flaming weapon, which only does the damage as it's hitting), and breaking the vials to release the contents is actually more certain with the full kinetic blast damage (which is taken by both the object and the target). The fire would then be released AFTER the attack hits and the strands of aether have dissipated, so my reading would be that I can tie up the bag and use my telekinetic blast to deliver it, and the drake will take that damage AND the damage from the alchemist's fires. If the attack missed, it would not take the blast damage or the alchemist's fires' direct hit damage, but would still take splash damage. Would you agree?
It also seems to me that large or larger creatures should be particularly susceptible to splash damage by virtue of having more surface area and taking up more space, and thus should be able to take the direct hit damage for the targeted square AND splash damage for adjacent squares that it also occupies, but I don't think that's how the rules are written, and I don't want to push my luck by asking for it.
GM question: My plan was to fly up and drop the bag, but it's light enough that I can actually use my telekinetic blast (currently limited to 15 pounds) to throw it instead. The text for telekinetic blast reads:
Now, it seems clear from that that the "loose strands of aether" version would work, but a bag full of alchemist's fire vials doesn't actually have any special weapon properties that would benefit from the "loose strands of aether" version of the blast (unlike, say, a flaming weapon, which only does the damage as it's hitting), and breaking the vials to release the contents is actually more certain with the full kinetic blast damage (which is taken by both the object and the target). The fire would then be released AFTER the attack hits and the strands of aether have dissipated, so my reading...You throw a nearby unattended object at a single foe as a ranged attack. The object must weigh no more than 5 pounds per kineticist level you possess. If the attack hits, the target and the thrown object each take the blast’s damage. Since the object is enfolded in strands of aether, even if you use this power on a magic weapon or other unusual object, the attack doesn’t use any of the magic weapon’s bonuses or effects; it simply deals your blast damage. Alternatively, you can loosen the strands of aether in order to deal damage to both the object and the target as though you had thrown the object yourself (instead of dealing your normal blast damage).
You substitute your Constitution modifier for your Strength modifier if throwing the object would have added your Strength modifier on the damage roll, and you don’t take the –4 penalty on the attack roll for throwing an object that wasn’t designed to be thrown. In this case, the object’s special effects apply (including effects from its materials), and if the object is a weapon, you must be proficient with it and able to wield it with one hand; otherwise, the item deals damage as a one-handed improvised weapon for a creature of your size
"The fire would then be released AFTER the attack hits and the strands of aether have dissipated, so my reading would be that I can tie up the bag and use my telekinetic blast to deliver it, and the drake will take that damage AND the damage from the alchemist's fires. If the attack missed, it would not take the blast damage or the alchemist's fires' direct hit damage, but would still take splash damage. Would you agree?"
Sounds like a solid interpretation to me, I say go for it!
Sounds like a solid interpretation to me, I say go for it!
Cool. So, I take it we're not using any sort of battle grid, and we can just narrate initiating combat as soon as we're ready?
Wait, it just occurred to me that since the drake is asleep, he is helpless and vulnerable to a coup de grace. If Rafe can approach without waking the drake (who has a -10 to perception for being asleep), he can perform a coup de grace (auto-hit, auto-crit) and do sneak attack damage. Using his sickle, this would be (1d6+3) x2 + 2d6 = ~20 damage, but if he borrowed Reiko's lance, he could up that to 1d8x3 + 2d6 = ~20.5 damage. Due to the feat tax removal stuff, Rafe also has access to power attack, which would add another 6 damage with the lance (because it's a x3 crit) for a total of 26.5 on average, and since it's an auto-hit, the to-hit penalty doesn't matter (nor does the one for non-proficiency). This probably wouldn't be enough damage to kill, but when a coup de grace doesn't do enough damage to kill, the target has to make a fortitude save (DC = 10 + damage dealt, or 36.5 on average) or die. I'm now thinking that Rafe should do that, and DarkDealer will be readying an action to fire off the bag of alchemist's fire if the drake wakes up and doesn't immediately die. Using the lance, which is a reach weapon, also means that Rafe doesn't have to be adjacent, and thus won't be in danger from splash damage if DarkDealer has to use the alchemist's fire.
Btw, next time we buy equipment, somebody needs to get a x4 crit weapon (probably a heavy pick or pickaxe, maybe a scythe, or firearms if they are allowed), even if it will only ever be used for coup de grace.
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If the GM will allow it we should readied action all CDG at the same time, there's no way it's surviving that
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Alternatively the beast just has to make a DC 10+damage fort save so on a average of DC 36 there's no getting out of this alive
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Either way we kill the beast before it can hit us effectively circumventing a dangerous combat
If the GM will allow it we should readied action all CDG at the same time, there's no way it's surviving that
Thought about it, but somebody would probably get an unlucky stealth roll and wake him up before we get the chance. More rolls means more chance of one of them being bad. This plan relies mostly on Rafe's stealth.
^Agreed
Despite it being asleep, it could be faking or someone could fail miserably. Less chances to fail if the best do the sneaking.
I think the "scroll" is the map we were looking for, not an actual scroll. Also, those are probably the characters the armor and daggers will go to, but we haven't identified their properties yet.
Busy today, will probably post again on Monday :)
Had a deadline that was not planned. It kept me flailing last 3 days
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Man today was one crazier day than expected. Back tomorrow!
Apologies all, I have to head out of town for a funeral today and will not be able to post through the rest of the week. Hopefully I'll be back and able to write Monday. Thanks for your understanding.
Hi guys. Sorry for being absent, couldn't access my posts until now.
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I may be unable to post for the next week depending on how things turn out
I will be on a cruise next week for my birthday with no internet access. I won't be able to post from Monday August 28th through Friday September 1st. I'll try to catch up and get things back up to speed upon my return. :)
Sorry for not being able to post.
DM's been missing for two weeks now. I hope this isn't the end of things but I am doubtful.
Yeah, worried about that too.
Apologies all, working on next update
Sizeable post(s) incoming- hopefully today or tomorrow
Apologies for delays all, but irl stuff has split my attention to where I think 2-3 updates a week for me is much more doable than daily, I hope you all understand.
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No worries. Real life always comes first.
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Hurricane Irma will be moving through our area Sunday into Monday. It is very likely I will have limited or no internet access for the next several days. I'll try to check in if and when I can. GM, feel free to NPC my character if needed.
Stay safe Toyama.
We weathered the storm well. No power at home but no damage to the house and everybody is okay. Posting will still be spotty in the afternoons and evenings until the power comes back on.
Good to know Toyama. It's been a crazy year.
Is there any description or anything of the inn? Anybody in there who might look like they know about where we're headed?
I will be mostly without internet for the next 5 days
I was having a lot of trouble making out the grid in some areas, so I added an overlay. Could we also get a link to the battle grid in the campaign info at the top of the page?
Not a problem, and thanks for doing that! Was my first time figuring out a map outside roll20.
Don’t see my image
You have to add it.
How do I access the image to add on!
@DarkDealer52, thanks for shaping the obscuring mist so I didn't have to!
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I copied over a whole batch of templates on the right side that I drew in another game using google drawings. Just have to copy/paste them when you want to use them (and remember to scale them to fit the current grid size).
Question, does firing arrows straight up incur any range penalty? Nothing saying it does comes up in search, but there are other rules (like those for scent) that double range penalties in the disadvantageous directions and halve them in advantageous directions, and it seems like this should apply to arrows fired straight up or straight down as well. What I'm thinking is that Darkdealer might fly straight up in the air and use kinetic blast with the Extended Range Infusion to attack from so high that their arrows incur huge penalties if they fire back. As a bonus, gather power could get them all looking up and unprepared for attack from the others (a distraction to aid stealth checks to keep them flat-footed).
It is something that doesn't make much sense, but no, no extra ranged penalties for firing an arrow straight up. Feel free to have DarkDealer roll his eyes though and complain about the unrealistic physics that couldn't possibly have taken *that* long to code.
As for drawing their attention upwards, that makes sense to me and there's no immediate reason to think it wouldn't work to allies advantage.
I find it odd too that having the high ground benefits melee but not ranged.
Also if you are going to ooc an entire post in gameplay then it should probably be over here.
It is something that doesn't make much sense, but no, no extra ranged penalties for firing an arrow straight up. Feel free to have DarkDealer roll his eyes though and complain about the unrealistic physics that couldn't possibly have taken *that* long to code.
As for drawing their attention upwards, that makes sense to me and there's no immediate reason to think it wouldn't work to allies advantage.
I'm guessing they're using longbows, not shortbows? If they're shortbows, moving away immediately after firing from a 120ft range would get me from the second range increment to the third.
Of course, if I move after firing, I could just use that movement to take cover behind a wall...
Also if you are going to ooc an entire post in gameplay then it should probably be over here.
Yeah, bad habit from some other games where nobody checks the discussion thread...
They do appear to be wielding longbows, yes.