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I am currently playing a musket master, and compare him frequently to my archer ranger in terms of what they can do in combat. Now, this is only at low levels so far, but he's hardly been an unstoppable force of destruction. Heck, the one time he's rolled a crit the enemy had Deflect Arrows, which apparently allows him to catch a bullet with his hand.
A lot of the realism issues deal with the fact that "Emerging guns" could cover a real broad range of firearms. Take a "musket". You could mean an arquebus, matchlock, flintlock, or even rifled percussion-cap weapon.
There's no way in heck "normal" medieval armor would have stopped a minie ball from a model 1853 Enfield at 40 FEET when it could kill an unarmored person at over 250 YARDS. I'm quite sure even a Brown Bess from the mid 18th century could do it at 40'. Those guns were not accurate past 50-75 yards, but that's more than 3 times the first range increment. I am not sure about earlier firearms, as I have little education or experience relating to them.
I envision my gunslinger as using a kind of flintlock not dissimilar to those employed in the American War for Independence. So I have issues about breaking versimilitude personally.
Grit is good for 2 reasons.
1.) Many of the best abilities function simply if you have at least 1 Grit remaining.
2.) It s REALLY easy to get back. Kill a guy, or crit.
It's pretty much the same as our Zen Archer using Ki Leech to have functionally unlimited Ki.
I believe that what phased out heavy armour was not firearms technology per se, but the changing tactics that resulted from their adoption, in particular drill and pikeman/gunman formations employed by professional armies. The heavy cavalry of the late middle ages is good for powerful charges, but drilled musketeer/pikemen clusters are very well capable of defending against those. This essentially made heavy cavalry tactically useless, once drilled professional armies began to dominate the battlefields. Since mobility and speed are still useful against such armies, the new cavalry significantly reduces its armour load and adapts its weaponry. Note that they still use plate cuirasses long after the heavy full plate amour has become historical. It is only in the 19th century when more or less modern fire arms (breech loading rifles) become common, that those are also starting to disappear.
What furthermore supports this notion is the fact that heavy plate armour develops around the same time that fire arms spread throughout Europe. Almost, as if heavier armour was some kind of response to their appearance, though that's probably not the whole story.
Tl;dr: Not weapons technology per se, but the demands of changing tactics killed the heavy plate armour.
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tldr
When you decide if gunslingers are allowed, you also need to decide what level guns are at. They have at least two categories. Emerging is one.of the catagories and I tnink the default for golarion. Emerging or widespread will determine what guns are available, that itself is a big part of the gunslinger class and will deeply effect how oid the class is mechanically.
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Disallow (or don't take) the Reliable enchantment.
On a musket at higher levels, this means you're misfiring on a 1-3, and with multiple attacks, this will come up reasonably often. At lower levels, the musket has to reload slowly.
I played alongside an archer around level 7, and our damage was on par - I was hitting more often closer up, but he had more attacks further away.
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How do you ignore misfires with a musket?Yeah the only thing is unbalanced is double pistol/musket combined with lvl 13 gunslinger (who ignores misfire), thats a fairly specific combination. DB firearms are balanced until you get to ignore misfires since they normally increase misfire. Misfires eat A LOT of dpr about 25% to 35% I may say, they are not usually included on dpr because its difficult to calculate.
I did the math on another thread, witouth double firearms damage doesnt go higher than a two handed Fighter even if you remove misfires. If you are concerned about balance just ban double firearms and be done with it.
musket master gets to ignore misfire with tow handed firearms, on the other hand pistolero get to ignore misifres with one handed firearms.
Personally i would prefer banning guns than archetypes since db guns dont really feel a conceptual niche
This is my only concern for allowing them.
I'm talking Barbarian as a baseline for balanced. Hitting touch AC is what puts me off.
Which barbarian?
The human superstitious, beast totem, CAGM, two hander (with furious, courageous) one? No it's not worst than this one, they can both wreck a game too easily.About guns, simply ban double barreled guns or better yet make the double property on guns work like the Semi-Automatic property of tech firearms, also make sure that the misfires are enforced and cost of ammunition is accounted (assuming the gunslinger is crafting, it's 0.1 gp per shot for regular bullets and 6gp per shot for paper cartiges). With those you will be good until high-ish levels (11+), after that you are going to have problems, serious ones in my opinion.
An even better solution is to allow the gunsligner to use tech firearms (just allow him to craft his own batteries), those are much more balanced and less disruptive weapons, most importantly they can be countered and high CR monsters have some defenses against them (in contrast to the early firearms).
2) is questionable - firearms have a base 20 crit chance so cannot be counted on. Gunslingers don't always get that many chances to kill people (something about being at the top of the initiative order and there not being wounded to finish off) unless the GM and party are cooperating by having multiple weak foes to kill and/or leaving weakened foes for the gunslinger to finish off.
I have a gunslinger in my Iron Gods game and there a lot the times that he yells "it's mine" or "leave him for me" or "no killsteal", most of the times the rest of the party does what he asks, sometimes it costs them to do so.
Ever played a Drop-Shotter with a Double Hackbut?
Because DAMN does Deadshot wreck people.
You guys actually use grit on stuff? Everything except quick clear is garbage, with a couple of exceptions .
I'd say there'a plenty of useful tricks for Grit, though admittedly a lot of them are a bit situational. At the very least, Deadeye is massively handy for whenever enemies are more than one range increment away (which happens a fair bit, especially if you're using pistols). Targeting has some reasonably useful effects too.
Honestly, the only grit ability I think is a complete waste is Lightning Reload, since by level 11 you should already be reloading as a free action. Maybe Startling Shot and Menacing Shot too.
You guys actually use grit on stuff? Everything except quick clear is garbage, with a couple of exceptions .
Yes because the gunslinger is a pistolero and uses the grit points for up close and deadly.
This is my only concern for allowing them.
I'm talking Barbarian as a baseline for balanced. Hitting touch AC is what puts me off.
Stick with "Emerging Guns" and "Early Firearms". Revolvers and double-barrel shotguns aren't balanced. Letting someone use a Tiefling tail or an Unseen Servant or undead to reload firearms isn't, either.
Frankly, I find the Gunslinger 1 / Fighter (Trench Fighter) X to be a bit more powerful but that's because I'm not a fan of the grit mechanic.
If you're playing low-level, they're a bit under-powered. If you're playing medium level (like 8-12) then they are quite good. If you're playing high level, well, everything high level sucks compared to the full casters.
Err...how are Revolvers not balanced again?
They're functionally identical to a Repeating Crossbow, save the Misfire chance and Touch AC thing.
You can't dual-wield a repeating crossbow. A repeating crossbow doesn't get dex-to-damage.
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You can't dual-wield a repeating crossbow. A repeating crossbow doesn't get dex-to-damage.This is my only concern for allowing them.
I'm talking Barbarian as a baseline for balanced. Hitting touch AC is what puts me off.
Stick with "Emerging Guns" and "Early Firearms". Revolvers and double-barrel shotguns aren't balanced. Letting someone use a Tiefling tail or an Unseen Servant or undead to reload firearms isn't, either.
Frankly, I find the Gunslinger 1 / Fighter (Trench Fighter) X to be a bit more powerful but that's because I'm not a fan of the grit mechanic.
If you're playing low-level, they're a bit under-powered. If you're playing medium level (like 8-12) then they are quite good. If you're playing high level, well, everything high level sucks compared to the full casters.
Err...how are Revolvers not balanced again?
They're functionally identical to a Repeating Crossbow, save the Misfire chance and Touch AC thing.
Repeating Hand crossbows*
Bolt Ace*
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Damnit, I want realism in my game where I can mumble jibberish, move my hands thus-ly, and throw bat poop at people until it turns into a ball of flame!
Let's see... why not have no rules? Or none that reflect reality even vaguely? This makes as much sense as the magic eliminates any grounding in reality argument.
Magic has always been allowed to trump reality. Much of the rest of the rules establish a reality that is somewhat... realistic. It's the grounding for verisimilitude in the game. Magic is allowed to be magical because we have no reality to base it on. The rest is based, to a greater or lesser extent, on reality. It also saves you having to figure out how everything works. It works like real life.
The question is how much realism you need vs. magic stuff. That varies with different people. So why don't you play nicely with each other? Neither will get the last word or be "right". And since you've all done this dance before you should know it :)
I'm sorry, let me rephrase that for you, then.
Damnit, I want realism in my game where I can...
Upon getting angry, lift 700lbs over my head, when normally I am only capable of putting up 400lbs...
...where I can, in the course of six seconds, draw two arrows, fire them at the same time, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it...all at someone around 400 feet away with a reasonable chance of hitting them with at least the first three arrows...
...where I can swim through a vortex-level maelstrom without even trying that hard as long as I've been keeping my skill up for about four months in-game time...
...where I can go from a green, wet behind-the ears military-school graduate with some basic skills to lord death-machine capable of taking on forty men of average skill as they all assault me at the same time in a matter of...what, six months in-game time?
Yeah, you're right. It's the magic that suspends disbelief in this game.
How do you ignore misfires with a musket?Yeah the only thing is unbalanced is double pistol/musket combined with lvl 13 gunslinger (who ignores misfire), thats a fairly specific combination. DB firearms are balanced until you get to ignore misfires since they normally increase misfire. Misfires eat A LOT of dpr about 25% to 35% I may say, they are not usually included on dpr because its difficult to calculate.
I did the math on another thread, witouth double firearms damage doesnt go higher than a two handed Fighter even if you remove misfires. If you are concerned about balance just ban double firearms and be done with it.
musket master gets to ignore misfire with tow handed firearms, on the other hand pistolero get to ignore misifres with one handed firearms.
Personally i would prefer banning guns than archetypes since db guns dont really feel a conceptual niche
I built a musket master and did not notice that. I will look at it again since nobody in the debate caught it either.
Edit: 13th level not bad| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sorry, let me rephrase that for you, then.
Damnit, I want realism in my game where I can...
Upon getting angry, lift 700lbs over my head, when normally I am only capable of putting up 400lbs...
This happens surprisingly often in real life. In fact, an extra 300 pounds is actually incredibly low for what has been repeatedly managed. The stories of little old grannies lifting half-ton trucks are not exaggerations or urban myths.
In fact, the typical person, unless operating under adrenaline, only uses a fraction of their body's actual strength. The reason is because the brain intentionally inhibits us from using our full strength to avoid injuring ourselves. But there are times when the brain can turn this inhibition off.
...where I can, in the course of six seconds, draw two arrows, fire them at the same time, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it, draw another arrow, fire it...all at someone around 400 feet away with a reasonable chance of hitting them with at least the first three arrows...
Lars Anderson can, in the course of 4.9 seconds, and has proven that 3 arrows in 1.5 seconds is perfectly possible.
Archers aiming for speed and accuracy tend to go at a much, much slower rate, but five or six in six seconds is not unreasonable.
...where I can swim through a vortex-level maelstrom without even trying that hard as long as I've been keeping my skill up for about four months in-game time...
Okay, you have a good point here.
...where I can go from a green, wet behind-the ears military-school graduate with some basic skills to lord death-machine capable of taking on forty men of average skill as they all assault me at the same time in a matter of...what, six months in-game time?
I think you just described many of the Medal of Honor winners who survived World War 2.
Or, for that matter, the typical medieval knight.
Here's the thing about most of the cases where it's possible: It requires going far outside the human norm. Which is what adventurers in Pathfinder are by default.
So, you're saying that the apex of humanity should be possible?
And you don't think the apex of humanity could dodge a gunshot?
Not a bullet that was already aimed perfectly with the trigger already pulled, but knowing a guy is pointing a gun at you, moving out of the way of where he was aiming before he pulls the trigger?
So, you're saying that the apex of humanity should be possible?
And you don't think the apex of humanity could dodge a gunshot?
Not a bullet that was already aimed perfectly with the trigger already pulled, but knowing a guy is pointing a gun at you, moving out of the way of where he was aiming before he pulls the trigger?
I'll admit that dodging bullets is where you get into flat-out magic. Even subsonic bullets, even ones where you move as soon as they pull the trigger, are extremely difficult to dodge.
Catching a bullet is even worse. But given there is magic involved, that can be overlooked.
In any case, my criticism of the guns as being unrealistic stems from a simple problem: In trying to create a balanced system that matches up to firearms invented well into the 20th Century (yes, firearms had trouble piercing steel armor that long), they created a nightmare system which is needlessly complex in certain areas and involves rules interactions that are a headache and make firearms unreliable. DnD 3E had already handled firearms perfectly, and in a way that was balanced: The firearms did not ignore armor and had cheap ammunition.
In playtesting of the 3E version, it actually worked out well. There was no need for exploding firearms, enchantments to make them reliable, or attempts to introduce magic items that would increase touch AC to counter them. They simply used normal AC. If they had been further developed, perhaps into a version of the gunslinger we have that doesn't need to worry about explosions or over-expensive weaponry and ammo, the result would have been still a strong martial class that had some unique flavor.
Well, I would assume dodging bullets would be less about pulling Matrix-style moves, and more moving erratically to make it hard for the enemy to aim properly. Hitting a moving target is substantially harder than hitting one that's standing still.
Nope. A soldier in WW2 dodged a tank round fired at him by jumping off a ledge the moment he saw the flash. It was a long range shot but he did in fact successfully dodge the bullet.
It's difficult and requires luck but it's definitely possible to dodge bullets especially primitive ones which aren't known for... accuracy.
Except he didn't dodge a bullet. If you want to be technical, tank rounds are not bullets; they're artillery shells. There's some important differences in consideration with artillery ammunition than there is with firearm ammunition. Then again, if you're observing what is shooting at you through a telescope while sitting a half mile away, there's a very good chance you'd be able to get out of the way of that tank shell as well. Still, nice that you referenced that Russian officer; most people forget about him when discussing people getting out of the way of tank shells.
But even if you don't want to be technical, he still didn't dodge it; "dodging a bullet" is a phrase used to refer to getting out of the path of an incoming piece of firearm ammunition once it's close to hitting you. Theoretically possible, yet realistically not something you should try if you want to live.
Modern bullet-avoidance tactics rely upon not being where the bullet is going to hit before it even gets close to there, often through usage of a lot of movement with some random trajectories or very rapid movement. It relies upon the fact most shooters are not trained to hit moving targets and prays they are using a weapon on full-auto; both of those have a nasty tendency to make all of that moving worthless when used by someone properly trained.
So, you're saying that the apex of humanity should be possible?
And you don't think the apex of humanity could dodge a gunshot?
Not a bullet that was already aimed perfectly with the trigger already pulled, but knowing a guy is pointing a gun at you, moving out of the way of where he was aiming before he pulls the trigger?
Realism in Pathfinder is beyond what we consider to be the apex of humanity or even physics. Our plane of existence has never seen anything over 6th levels, so naturally a 15th level person is far beyond our apex. A level 15 person can and should be able to effortlessly dodge bullets, or if they want to show off, cut them in two.
Damnit, I want realism in my game where I can mumble jibberish, move my hands thus-ly, and throw bat poop at people until it turns into a ball of flame!
Let's see... why not have no rules? Or none that reflect reality even vaguely? This makes as much sense as the magic eliminates any grounding in reality argument.
Magic has always been allowed to trump reality. Much of the rest of the rules establish a reality that is somewhat... realistic. It's the grounding for verisimilitude in the game. Magic is allowed to be magical because we have no reality to base it on. The rest is based, to a greater or lesser extent, on reality. It also saves you having to figure out how everything works. It works like real life.
The question is how much realism you need vs. magic stuff. That varies with different people. So why don't you play nicely with each other? Neither will get the last word or be "right". And since you've all done this dance before you should know it :)
I'm sorry, let me rephrase that for you, then.
Damnit, I want realism in my game where I can...
*snip*
Yeah, you're right. It's the magic that suspends disbelief in this game.
Well, Magnus Janus saved me most of a reply so I won't include or go over the point by point :) The part of my post you ignored was "The rest is based, to a greater or lesser extent, on reality." Yes, it is an RPG based on heroic action. Heroes may surpass normal people. It still has a connection to reality, especially at lower levels. The part of my post you ignored was the last paragraph about playing nicely with people who prefer a slightly different game to you. That was the main thrust of the whole post. The whole post was aimed at a dismissive attitude to other play styles. Maybe it's just an internet disconnect...
This is my only concern for allowing them.
I'm talking Barbarian as a baseline for balanced. Hitting touch AC is what puts me off.
The thing to watch about Gunslingers is higher levels. If you've ever played in games with Archers you know how powerful a ranged build is. In the beginning levels Gunslingers will probably come out a little behind archers due to misfire chances, and not adding anything except deadly aim to his damage. At 5th level you're going to see a switch. Gunslingers are now adding their DEX to damage. It's not huge at this point, they still have their misfire (but that's getting lower too).
At 9th level assuming you stick pretty closely to Wealth by Level the gunslinger's miss chance is going to go away. As soon as they can afford the 32k to get +1 greater reliable (total +4 weapon) they do ridiculous amounts of damage for two reasons:
1. No misfire
2. As encounter CR goes up regular AC goes up, Touch AC goes down.
Now you think a +4 weapon, that should be awhile, and for any other class I'd agree, but not gunslinger. They don't miss. The only thing that stops them is misfires. If you think about an archer, he needs items for STR to keep his damage up, he needs items for DEX to keep his to hit up, and he needs to make his weapon more than +1 to help with both damage and to hit.
A Gunslinger doesn't need ANY of that. His DEX will be 18 at character creation, two levels it's 20 and that's fine, because he never misses, even with his iterative attacks. So all he needs is Greater Reliable.
So level's 1-4 are pretty weak. 5-9 are around an archer, maybe better, maybe worse depending on their luck and misfire. After that though, they'll tear though encounters.
Except he didn't dodge a bullet.A fair point but I'd like to note that the top end of humanity even has a particular individual shot in the head and the bullet flattened against his skull.
See? That's how you use a natural armor enchantment!
Screw realism, but internal consistency is important.
I don't see how bullets ignore magic plate, nor do I see how they ignore mundane plate without damaging it.
But something to keep in mind, there is no such thing as defensive skill in PF outside of some niche abilities. Most of one's AC comes from magic armor and trinkets. So in PF, very few could ever doge an arrow let alone a bullet with pure ability. The most martially defensive character in the game is the monk. He gains defense at a rate of 1 per 4 levels. Wizards gain BAB at a rate of 1 per 2 levels.
PF characters are not even as competent at defending themselves as regular people, they do manage to get a lot of HP though, which is a vitality metric that makes no sense in our world.
PF characters are not even as competent at defending themselves as regular people, they do manage to get a lot of HP though, which is a vitality metric that makes no sense in our world.
Maybe in your games? HP in my games is more like a "combat will" metric.
That attack connected? Doesn't need to hit you, but you are getting weary of fighting, your gut starts failing you, your muscles tense up, etc.
When shot to 0 HP, that's when something finally hits you, or perhaps you just plummet from the stress.
Which goes right out the window when you realize many monsters have "on hit" effects like Poison which wouldn't work with that logic.
Gunslingers are balanced. In Kingmaker I had a warforged gunslinger with a 10th level bard installed in one of his guns as a cohort, and another gun was intelligent. Even with upping revolver damage to 2d6, he didn't match the eldritch knight/fighter/wizard for raw DPS, or the cleric for sheer survivability. I also used Fantasy Firearms from scorched earth that creates revolvers specialized amongst the other races, including ones that do 3d6 but only have 4 shots. He used speedloaders and abundant ammunition to recharge the revolvers, but was still vulnerable to spell effects, close in melee fighters, dragon breath, grappling creatures, surprise attacks etc. The same party also had a straight cleric of Sarenrae, a dwarven saurian shaman druid, a dwarven fighter with that exotic dwarf smashy ball and chain plus the complete sunder feat chain, and a bard (skald archetype)/disciple of metal (a prestige class that could do things like summon monster with bardic performance based on heavy metal songs) with an intelligent axe that hated fey. We also had an artificer from the pfsrd20 site that used a long musket, and he built a Colossal size golem with its own revolver that eventually became the god of warforged and the new kingdom in Kingmaker. Guess what killed most of them? The King from the 5th part of the AP and his troops. Stealth and planning beat out spellcasting power and fighting expertise.
My issue with firearms is the touch ac mechanic. Why do NO other missile weapons have this?
Oh, and as an indicator of balance the min-maxer at our table is awfully keen to play a gunslinger. That tells me enough, I'll go with my gut - they're over-powered as well as having a badly devised mechanic.
My gut tells me your optimizer is being nice and not playing a full caster. Or doesn't know what the overpowered options are. One or the other.
My gut tells me your optimizer is being nice and not playing a full caster. Or doesn't know what the overpowered options are. One or the other.My issue with firearms is the touch ac mechanic. Why do NO other missile weapons have this?
Oh, and as an indicator of balance the min-maxer at our table is awfully keen to play a gunslinger. That tells me enough, I'll go with my gut - they're over-powered as well as having a badly devised mechanic.
Yeah you'll always hear how full casters are so over-powered and yet, none of the hardcore min/maxers play them... interesting.
Yeah you'll always hear how full casters are so over-powered and yet, none of the hardcore min/maxers play them... interesting.My gut tells me your optimizer is being nice and not playing a full caster. Or doesn't know what the overpowered options are. One or the other.My issue with firearms is the touch ac mechanic. Why do NO other missile weapons have this?
Oh, and as an indicator of balance the min-maxer at our table is awfully keen to play a gunslinger. That tells me enough, I'll go with my gut - they're over-powered as well as having a badly devised mechanic.
I don't speak for everyone but outside of a Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist, all my Pathfinder character have been full casters. And all of them have Craft Wondrous Item written in as their 3rd level feat.
Because they are not exciting to play. When you have an "I win" button for everything, it's not as fun.
It's why people write haikus. Or why writers like twitter. Limits give birth to creativity.
Right because hardcore min/maxers are looking to make scenarios challenging that's why they migrate to the Barbarians and Archers that do 6 billion point of damage per round. Totally see your point
Right because hardcore min/maxers are looking to make scenarios challenging that's why they migrate to the Barbarians and Archers that do 6 billion point of damage per round. Totally see your pointBecause they are not exciting to play. When you have an "I win" button for everything, it's not as fun.
It's why people write haikus. Or why writers like twitter. Limits give birth to creativity.
6 billion damage is much weaker then "No save, just lose". Or "Oops we aren't playing Rise of the Runelords anymore, we're playing Overlord and I'm *IT*."
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Right because hardcore min/maxers are looking to make scenarios challenging that's why they migrate to the Barbarians and Archers that do 6 billion point of damage per round. Totally see your pointBecause they are not exciting to play. When you have an "I win" button for everything, it's not as fun.
It's why people write haikus. Or why writers like twitter. Limits give birth to creativity.
Making an archer or a barbarian do 6 million points of damage is harder than making a wizard who controls the entire battlefield with a single spell.
It's like building a PC vs buying a mac or a pre-built. Even if my PC is bad, I enjoyed putting it together. You can't do that with a mac.
Oh yeah Barbarian's are truely complex: Yeah I want one with a big honking sword - Oh look that threat range will be 15-20 that seems good, oh wait I can get a pounce and ridiculous saves? Yeah I'll take that too.
Archer - So I just take this standard load out of feats and I'll do full attacks and a ridiculous amount of damage every round? Okay, I'll do that.
You know what? I'm not getting into this again. For those that have actually played and seen people play a high level wizard, it rare that they outshine the rest of the party. The same is not said about Gunslingers, Barbarian's and Archers.